Non Believers: I'm What's Called a Pessimist

[DMC]

18 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

!. What type of non believer are you? How do you define it?

Agnostic.  Don't really think about spiritual matters much anymore, pretty much resigned to we'll see (or not) when I'm dead.  Also, it really bothers me when people speak with such surety that their position is the right one on unknowable questions - this includes atheists.

18 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

2. Did you ever believe?

Not really.  There was a period in high school in which I identified as a deist but that was mostly all the weed.

18 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

3. Were you ever part of a faith?

Nah.  My mom made us go to a Unitarian "Church" for about a year and a half - mostly because she wanted to have a service for our dying great-grandmother.  All I really member is they focused on teaching about stereotypes and there were free condoms in the bathrooms.

18 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

4. Do you tell anyone you are a non? Are you a combative non?

I have no problem telling anyone, but I certainly don't advertise it.  As others have said, most of my peer group is non-religious so there's not really too much to talk about.  While the U.S. is "extraordinary" in still having most respondents identify with a religion, when you measure religiosity it becomes clear that that's not really the case for those under 50.  Well, outside evangelicals, but even their influence is dissipating.

Anyway, as I intimated above, I really don't like the combative Richard Dawkins/Bill Maher strain of atheism that some of my friends have exhibited over the years.  Usually tell them to cool it.

[Rippounet]

8 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

There was a period in high school in which I identified as a deist but that was mostly all the weed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lp4h_AGutE

 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lp4h_AGutE

 

LOL

[IheartIheartTesla]

1. I am agnostic till a Planck's time after the Great Singularity, and an atheist afterwards (' je n'ai pas eu besoin de cette hypothèse ')

2. Maybe till the seventh grade, but I discount the earlier years because I was probably deferring to authority figures. Once I started having well-formed opinions of my own my break from organized religion was quite sudden.

3. Hinduism

4. I've told many people, never hide it. I'm not particularly combative about it, other people can indulge in whatever fantasies they want.

[Iskaral Pust]

I'm atheist, secular humanist and rationalist.  I am intrigued from a scientific perspective to understand what preceded the Big Bang and the other unknowable information about and beyond our universe.  But I don't call that god and I bitterly reject the claims of religions based on divine revelation.

I was raised Catholic, never really believed (how can parents tell kids that Santa Claus isn't real and claim that god is? -- it's exactly the same thing!), and by age 14 I insisted that I be excused from religious instruction at school (which was a staple in public school in Ireland at that time; hopefully no longer). 

I used to be a combative atheist but I've suppressed that for a long time after marrying a religious wife.  She is otherwise perfect and I made my peace with this compromise long ago, as did she.  It concerns me to see my son raised in the brainwashing of belief but his personality and mental inclinations are so similar to mine that I'm confident he'll find his own truth in time. 

I consider myself to be an ethical and moral person, and see no need for someone else to claim god told them how I should behave.  I've studied philosophy and ethics myself because it was not part of my formal education, even though religious instruction was a daily class through end of high school. 

IMO the need for belief among most of our population stems from poor upbringing: brainwashing at a young age and failing to prepare children cognitively and emotionally to handle the responsibility and uncertainty of adulthood, so god becomes a surrogate parent and crutch for the illusion of control. 

A lot of atheists, especially in America, stay quiet to avoid emotional harm to those who will never change; just like I speak slowly and kindly to someone with an extra chromosome, and don't use the word retarded.  It has become simple good manners not to make a point of their emotional and cognitive frailty.  They can no longer help it.  Every theist has heard of atheism and rejected it, and vice versa. I honestly don't know why there are any attempts at proselytizing by either side. 

[Buckwheat]

12 hours ago, mankytoes said:

The thing is, when people say "Christian, Muslim or Jew", they're often asking about your background as much as what you believe in. Like on the UK census, a huge number of people tick Christian, but other surveys shows they don't believe in the Christian God, don't go to church, don't read the bible. But they still have that identity.

Maybe this is true. In this case, I am not even sure what the children really understood under these religous words.

12 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I put Christian on visa applications when I think it would help, and it's not technically lying- there's no process for leaving the Church of England once you're baptised, so I'm still a member. Christian atheism isn't well known, but it's very much a real thing- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism Same with Muslim atheism, a lot of people in our country have the impression that all "Muslims", as in people from Islamic backgrounds, are religious, attend mosques, pray, etc.

Really? That is odd. With Catholic church, there is. I do not think any authority should be able to list you as their member if you do not wish so.

12 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Kids like to categorise each other, it makes things easier for them. I grew up in a very multicultural area and we would all take special pride in our heritage. So my mate was Indian, my other mate was Chinese, the other was Albanian, another Italian. We'd all rip each other for it and it gave us some form of identity. I think thats all thats happening there, kids want to be able to easily group people.

That is true. But I think in this particular case it is sad that they used the identifier of religion, while so many of them fleed from countries where wars based on religions are happening. Of course it is not the kids' fault at all. But it just goes to show how this differentiation passes down to the next generation.

[Martell Spy]

3 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I'm atheist, secular humanist and rationalist.  I am intrigued from a scientific perspective to understand what preceded the Big Bang and the other unknowable information about and beyond our universe.  But I don't call that god and I bitterly reject the claims of religions based on divine revelation.

I was raised Catholic, never really believed (how can parents tell kids that Santa Claus isn't real and claim that god is? -- it's exactly the same thing!), and by age 14 I insisted that I be excused from religious instruction at school (which was a staple in public school in Ireland at that time; hopefully no longer). 

I used to be a combative atheist but I've suppressed that for a long time after marrying a religious wife.  She is otherwise perfect and I made my peace with this compromise long ago, as did she.  It concerns me to see my son raised in the brainwashing of belief but his personality and mental inclinations are so similar to mine that I'm confident he'll find his own truth in time. 

I consider myself to be an ethical and moral person, and see no need for someone else to claim god told them how I should behave.  I've studied philosophy and ethics myself because it was not part of my formal education, even though religious instruction was a daily class through end of high school. 

IMO the need for belief among most of our population stems from poor upbringing: brainwashing at a young age and failing to prepare children cognitively and emotionally to handle the responsibility and uncertainty of adulthood, so god becomes a surrogate parent and crutch for the illusion of control. 

A lot of atheists, especially in America, stay quiet to avoid emotional harm to those who will never change; just like I speak slowly and kindly to someone with an extra chromosome, and don't use the word retarded.  It has become simple good manners not to make a point of their emotional and cognitive frailty.  They can no longer help it.  Every theist has heard of atheism and rejected it, and vice versa. I honestly don't know why there are any attempts at proselytizing by either side. 

As for why there are any attempts at proselytizing, on the Christian side it's kind of built in to the faith. Certain branches in particular. The Jehovah Witnesses are like that, like the Mormons they do the door to door thing. It sounds from reading these posts though that most day to day non believers don't really care to convert anyone though. I certainly don't.

I think arguments between believers and non believers happen for a couple of reasons. One, a lot of these famous celebrity atheists aren't really representative of the day to day nons. It's a bit like some of those right wing TV personalities are less representative of a typical American conservative, and more like the TV version of clickbait. They are more like clowns doing acrobatics and juggling than anything.

And two, egos. I have got in some online arguments when I was younger. I think it's more likely to happen with young males more than anyone. But there is no way I'd do that in real life. Actually, while I usually like to remain honest, if I run into someone who seems to be a pushy Christian I will often get deceptive in order to avoid conflict. My usual cover story is that I'm a lapsed Christian. It's somewhat vague and it avoids making an enemy.

And yeah I have run into Christians who have tried to convert me. And I've yet to run into an Atheist who tried it. And I've worked with a fair amount of Muslims and Sikhs. I've yet to see them try to convert me.

And yes, it's a bit weird for a non to talk about their beliefs to a believer because it's simply pretty depressing to someone that believes. True Detective season 1 had a fairly good conversation in it about this.

 

 

 

 

[Martell Spy]

5 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Agnostic.  Don't really think about spiritual matters much anymore, pretty much resigned to we'll see (or not) when I'm dead.  Also, it really bothers me when people speak with such surety that their position is the right one on unknowable questions - this includes atheists.

Not really.  There was a period in high school in which I identified as a deist but that was mostly all the weed.

Nah.  My mom made us go to a Unitarian "Church" for about a year and a half - mostly because she wanted to have a service for our dying great-grandmother.  All I really member is they focused on teaching about stereotypes and there were free condoms in the bathrooms.

I have no problem telling anyone, but I certainly don't advertise it.  As others have said, most of my peer group is non-religious so there's not really too much to talk about.  While the U.S. is "extraordinary" in still having most respondents identify with a religion, when you measure religiosity it becomes clear that that's not really the case for those under 50.  Well, outside evangelicals, but even their influence is dissipating.

Anyway, as I intimated above, I really don't like the combative Richard Dawkins/Bill Maher strain of atheism that some of my friends have exhibited over the years.  Usually tell them to cool it.

Interesting. Sounds like you met some actual in person combative atheists. What were they doing? Getting in arguments?

I just remembered actually, I do know one real life combative atheist. An old friend of mine from high school. He's a very social and confident person. He actually used me to try to mock this extremely religious girl in high school. He had set it up that she'd do some sort of weird exorcism thing on me. I don't know what faith she was exactly. I don't think it was as crazy as trying to drive demons from me. Anyway, I went along with it because he's a very insistent person and I was a bit shy back then. She backed out of it though. She took me aside and said she wasn't going to go through with this because he wasn't taking this seriously, but that she would pray for me.

He's still a friend of mine, but we never really discussed our atheism. It's just not something we feel a need to do. It had slipped my mind that he was one until just now.

[DMC]

22 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Interesting. Sounds like you met some actual in person combative atheists. What were they doing? Getting in arguments?

Yes, certainly in high school.  Since then, one friend in particular when I lived in Florida would bring it up in our group of friends whenever he was drunk - like I said, there weren't really any very religious among said group, but his (now ex) wife grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and he could get pretty damn disparaging.  Most recently, one of my cohorts in grad school is a Mormon.  A couple other colleagues/friends have gotten pretty dickish at times with that - e.g. mentioning and referencing that South Park (dumb, dumb, dumb) ad nauseam.

[Martell Spy]

21 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yes, certainly in high school.  Since then, one friend in particular when I lived in Florida would bring it up in our group of friends whenever he was drunk - like I said, there weren't really any very religious among said group, but his (now ex) wife grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and he could get pretty damn disparaging.  Most recently, one of my cohorts in grad school is a Mormon.  A couple other colleagues/friends have gotten pretty dickish at times with that - e.g. mentioning and referencing that South Park (dumb, dumb, dumb) ad nauseam.

Yeah, that's kind of crazy that is happening at the graduate level. It's kind of like bullying, well it pretty much IS bullying. And you don't see bullying too often in my experience among adults at the workplace. YMMV.

I did have some idiot try to bully me when I was 26 and he was like 40. But he was dumb enough to do it in front of our boss and she just gave him this dirty look. But yeah, I never got up to the graduate level, but I wouldn't think it would happen in that setting.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Martell Spy said:

But yeah, I never got up to the graduate level, but I wouldn't think it would happen in that setting.

Alcohol.  Plus, it's really an extension of intellectual bullying, which in my experience happens all the time in social settings among grad students.

[Jo498]

13 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I'm atheist, secular humanist and rationalist.  I am intrigued from a scientific perspective to understand what preceded the Big Bang and the other unknowable information about and beyond our universe.  But I don't call that god and I bitterly reject the claims of religions based on divine revelation.

I was raised Catholic, never really believed (how can parents tell kids that Santa Claus isn't real and claim that god is? -- it's exactly the same thing!), and by age 14

But it obviously is not the same thing. It completely puzzles me how an intelligent person who got beyond the most childish conceptions of god and only tried a little to understand what is meant with God in the monotheist traditions could think for a second that Santa Claus or leprechauns or so and a Theist God (or corresponding notions like Brahman/Absolute/One/Good) could be even remotely similar.

My other main puzzzlement (although I admit that I had phases where I tended similarly) is how widespread "apatheism" is. How can it be not of supreme importance if there is a right way to live and a wrong way and that there will be some kind of judgement/reincarnation/whatever or if it does not matter at all in the long run?

FWIW I am nominally protestant but not really practising atm. I grew up religious, was tending skeptic/agnostic in my twenties (or maybe sometimes apatheist) but never really convinced by materialism. By now I am certain that the contemporary materialism is inconsistent. Probably "philosophical theist" and "aristotelian dualist" fits best. I have huge respect for the theological-philosophical traditions both of the Abrahamitic religions as well as Vedanta and Buddhism (although I either do not understand the latter or it really is incoherent/paradoxical)

I am still skeptical about revealed and even more about most organized religion although I cannot and do not want to escape "cultural christianity" (even Dawkins still likes Xmas and Evensong) and I think that I underestimated the societal and cultural value of organised religion.

[mankytoes]

18 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I used to be a combative atheist but I've suppressed that for a long time after marrying a religious wife.  She is otherwise perfect and I made my peace with this compromise long ago, as did she.  It concerns me to see my son raised in the brainwashing of belief but his personality and mental inclinations are so similar to mine that I'm confident he'll find his own truth in time.

Sorry if this is too personal, but why is this happening? Shouldn't your beliefs be just as important in raising your son? The assumption always seems to be that religious belief should trump all other principles. Baptism, for me, would be a big red line. I was baptised, and I don't resent that, but I don't think it's right to force a baby to join a religion. It's absurd, really, how can someone who doesn't understand that when people leave a room, they still exist, have a theology? It's like me saying me baby is a communist or a libertarian.

To me, it's very important to raise children agnostically. I know it's totally unrealisitic, but I think everyone should do it, I would never tell my child that atheism is the truth. I would just say "lots of people believe in lots of different things, some think there is a God, some don't. No one can know for certain. When you're older, you can decide for yourself".

You can probably guess that I'm really against faith schools as well.

On 24/11/2017 at 2:10 PM, Eggegg said:

Exactly, in an age where our minds are overloaded with information and thoughts its obviously useful to be able to switch them off for a bit and relax. There is a bit of silliness about higher levels of conciousness what I don't tend to believe in, but I think being able to calm your mind is incredibly powerful, especially for some people who are very much led by their emotions .. their 'chimp brain'

And as someone who needs to do a lot of stretching and core work, Yoga is suspiciously similar to much of what my physio tells me to do. 

I always suspect that people invoke religion just to get people to do what they want. For example, in this case, I can imagine something like this happening

Ancient Indian leader- These stretching exercises are great, everyone should do them, they will give us a healthier, stronger population. Everyone! Do these exercises!

Ancient Indian people- Meh, I can't be bothered, I don't think they are worth it.

Ancient Indian leader- I know how to change their minds. Hey everyone! Your Gods want you to do the exercises! They are part of prayer!

 

[Dr. Pepper]

5 hours ago, Jo498 said:

But it obviously is not the same thing.

How is it not the same thing?  Santa Clause and Tooth Fairy and God and Easter Bunny are all imaginary supernatural creatures created by man and used to guide behavior and answer questions and provide gifts. Just because you personally think one is more true doesn't make it so.  It's absurd.  

15 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Sorry if this is too personal, but why is this happening? Shouldn't your beliefs be just as important in raising your son? The assumption always seems to be that religious belief should trump all other principles. Baptism, for me, would be a big red line. I was baptised, and I don't resent that, but I don't think it's right to force a baby to join a religion. It's absurd, really, how can someone who doesn't understand that when people leave a room, they still exist, have a theology? It's like me saying me baby is a communist or a libertarian.

To me, it's very important to raise children agnostically. I know it's totally unrealisitic, but I think everyone should do it, I would never tell my child that atheism is the truth. I would just say "lots of people believe in lots of different things, some think there is a God, some don't. No one can know for certain. When you're older, you can decide for yourself".

Yeah, I agree with this.  As a foster parent I've been required to take children to church and 'nurture their spiritual life'.  It always made me feel a bit sick because I knew it was harmful to them.  If I had the choice, I couldn't imagine ever indoctrinating a child in this way.  It's intellectually abusive. 

Quote

You can probably guess that I'm really against faith schools as well.

I always suspect that people invoke religion just to get people to do what they want. For example, in this case, I can imagine something like this happening

Ancient Indian leader- These stretching exercises are great, everyone should do them, they will give us a healthier, stronger population. Everyone! Do these exercises!

Ancient Indian people- Meh, I can't be bothered, I don't think they are worth it.

Ancient Indian leader- I know how to change their minds. Hey everyone! Your Gods want you to do the exercises! They are part of prayer!

Probably a bit of this, probably a bit to explain what was previously unexplainable.

Also reminds me of the story "Frindle" where a child renames pen to frindle and it takes off and grows outside of his control. 

[TrueMetis]

14 hours ago, Jo498 said:

But it obviously is not the same thing. It completely puzzles me how an intelligent person who got beyond the most childish conceptions of god and only tried a little to understand what is meant with God in the monotheist traditions could think for a second that Santa Claus or leprechauns or so and a Theist God (or corresponding notions like Brahman/Absolute/One/Good) could be even remotely similar.

They're both beings of significant power capable of impossible feats via the use of magic. What exactly is the difference between them?

Anyway

1. I'm an agnostic atheist to deities in the general sense. Given the wide variety of what people say when they mean "god" I understand that it's not possible to gain evidence one way or the other for those types of deities, but because there is no evidence I do not believe in those gods. I am a gnostic atheist when it comes to most deities that make specific claims. So the biblical literal created the universe in 6 days 6000 years ago and Noah's flood was a actual event god? Yeah that one doesn't exist and I can prove it.

2. Never believed.

3. Nope

4. Yes, and yes. both in so far as in my experience telling people you are an atheist (inevitably in response to being asked about your religion) makes you combative and that I treat religious claims with all the skepticism I do of homeopathy, crystal healing, etc. One of the funniest things in the world to me (well funny is perhaps not the right word) is how the word militant applies to atheists vs the religious. If you label a religious person militant you have to be worried about them killing people, a militant atheist? They might be a bit mean.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

To me, it's very important to raise children agnostically. I know it's totally unrealisitic, but I think everyone should do it, I would never tell my child that atheism is the truth. I would just say "lots of people believe in lots of different things, some think there is a God, some don't. No one can know for certain. When you're older, you can decide for yourself".

You can probably guess that I'm really against faith schools as well.

I don't have any kids myself but plenty of my sibs do and many of their kids were raised this way.  They turned out fine for the most part.  If I did have kids i would do the same, no way would I send a child to any type of religious school.

[mankytoes]

3 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

I don't have any kids myself but plenty of my sibs do and many of their kids were raised this way.  They turned out fine for the most part.  If I did have kids i would do the same, no way would I send a child to any type of religious school.

In the UK, you often don't really have a choice in practise. I'm from a village, both my parents worked, low income family, it wouldn't have been practical to send me elsewhere, and the nearest schools are church schools as well.

5 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

How is it not the same thing?  Santa Clause and Tooth Fairy and God and Easter Bunny are all imaginary supernatural creatures created by man and used to guide behavior and answer questions and provide gifts. Just because you personally think one is more true doesn't make it so.  It's absurd.  

Yeah, I agree with this.  As a foster parent I've been required to take children to church and 'nurture their spiritual life'.  It always made me feel a bit sick because I knew it was harmful to them.  If I had the choice, I couldn't imagine ever indoctrinating a child in this way.  It's intellectually abusive. 

Probably a bit of this, probably a bit to explain what was previously unexplainable.

Also reminds me of the story "Frindle" where a child renames pen to frindle and it takes off and grows outside of his control. 

That's the difficulty with discussing religion. I don't want to offend people, but my beliefs on religion- including that's it's on the same level as believing in Father Christmas- are clearly offensive to most religious people. That's why I think it's very dodgy to say you should censor offensive speech. Then again, I think it's offensive for someone to say to me I have to join their club or I will burn in hell for eternity.

Is that because they actively showed an interest, or because their parents/previous carers were religious? If the latter, that's totally unacceptable. There was this big controversy in the UK recently about a "Christian" girl getting fostered with Muslims, and how they were "forcing their culture on her". It basically turned out to be a load of hate stirring bollocks, but it's an interesting issue, what are the rights of a foster parent in this area? Maybe one for its' own thread.

Yeah, I mean even a hardline atheist like me can understand why people feel yoga and meditation are spirtual experiences, because they do alter your consciousness.

[Martell Spy]

3 hours ago, mankytoes said:

In the UK, you often don't really have a choice in practise. I'm from a village, both my parents worked, low income family, it wouldn't have been practical to send me elsewhere, and the nearest schools are church schools as well.

That's the difficulty with discussing religion. I don't want to offend people, but my beliefs on religion- including that's it's on the same level as believing in Father Christmas- are clearly offensive to most religious people. That's why I think it's very dodgy to say you should censor offensive speech. Then again, I think it's offensive for someone to say to me I have to join their club or I will burn in hell for eternity.

Is that because they actively showed an interest, or because their parents/previous carers were religious? If the latter, that's totally unacceptable. There was this big controversy in the UK recently about a "Christian" girl getting fostered with Muslims, and how they were "forcing their culture on her". It basically turned out to be a load of hate stirring bollocks, but it's an interesting issue, what are the rights of a foster parent in this area? Maybe one for its' own thread.

Yeah, I mean even a hardline atheist like me can understand why people feel yoga and meditation are spirtual experiences, because they do alter your consciousness.

As far as religious schools go, it's a bit different in the U.S. Unless perhaps it's a Catholic school, there's a decent chance your child will be taught things like Creationism. It can get pretty dodgy, in particular in some regions, And of course some of this has started bleeding into our textbook supplies for public schools.

Yeah, an atheist pretty much has to sugar coat it if they are talking to a believer. It's very easy to offend just by stating what you believe in an unvarnished fashion. That's part of why I don't talk about it at all. America has something different going on than the UK I believe. It's not just that it's offensive to the person for an atheist to state their beliefs, but a large section of the populace believes that Christianity should be shown some amount of reverence. Just equating God to Santa Claus out loud may seen as disrespectful in some quarters. It's not accident that every President must be a Christian. If Sanders had won it would have been a real watershed moment, sort of like when JFK the Catholic won. And of course god has sneaked  his way onto our money.

 

[BigFatCoward]

9 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

As far as religious schools go, it's a bit different in the U.S. Unless perhaps it's a Catholic school, there's a decent chance your child will be taught things like Creationism. It can get pretty dodgy, in particular in some regions, And of course some of this has started bleeding into our textbook supplies for public schools.

 

UK religious schools basically are just normal schools but with a little bit of extra singing, i doubt the kids are even aware its a religious school. 

My local primary school is church of england, and i'd have no problem sending my kids there, and i'm as strong as anyone in my beleifs that religion is f'ing ridiculous, and those who believe are borderline simple (no offence desired, but its hard to discuss religion honestly without causing offence).

[Martell Spy]

15 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

UK religious schools basically are just normal schools but with a little bit of extra singing, i doubt the kids are even aware its a religious school. 

My local primary school is church of england, and i'd have no problem sending my kids there, and i'm as strong as anyone in my beleifs that religion is f'ing ridiculous, and those who believe are borderline simple (no offence desired, but its hard to discuss religion honestly without causing offence).

Yeah, it sounds fine, but I assume UK is a far saner place than here.  You have the Church of England, we have people that believe that atheist liberals have taken over the public education system and are brainwashing children. The appropriate response of course, is to save the children from this system and brainwash as many of them as you can yourself. I'm a little do busy playing RPG's to get around to brainwashing anyone's children, but someone must be doing it.