Aline de Gavrillac

Ashara's "Boyfriend"

161 posts in this topic

Who was the man who dishonored Ashara Dayne?  I believe the identity of this man will be important to the plot going forward.  There are many possible men who could have done this but the unusual suspects will almost certainly be sons of the Great Houses or, dare I say it, from the royal household itself.  We need to decide between two forks in the road before we can proceed with the discussion.  We have to decide what Barristan meant by - dishonor.  This is a pretty vague term with a wide breadth of meaning coming from an honorable man like Ser Barristan Selmy.  It can mean something as innocuous as love that was not reciprocated by the man.  However, I believe it was more than that.  It was something upsetting enough to make Ashara turn to a stranger for emotional support.  This second fork in the road is the one that I will pursue.  The dishonor was of a sexual nature that resulted in Ashara getting pregnant. 

The Unusual Suspects

1 - King Aerys Targaryen. 

Without doubt, he is the only person in the whole kingdom who is above the law.  Aerys was the law.  By definition, Aerys cannot do anything unlawful.  The kingdom belonged to the Targaryens and Aerys was the king at the time.  Every member of every noble house in the kingdom was his subject.  Aerys can do what he will with Ashara and get away with it. 

I do not think it was Aerys.  Don't you think the Starks and the Baratheons will still, up to the present, still blame Aerys?  Sure they would have.  Robert took the throne and he can (and did) slander every member of House Targaryen.  Every sin, minor or major, committed by the Targaryens were used by the Baratheon-Stark publicity machine.  The fact that they did not pin this on Aerys tells me that the king is not guilty.

2 - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rhaegar was not above the law.  He was still a subject of the king.  However, for the same reasons that I struck Aerys from the list of suspects, I will do the same for Rhaegar.  Ned would think negatively of Rhaegar, even curse him, if the prince had dishonored Ashara. 

3 - Oberyn Martell.

The Martells are the lords of the Daynes.  So if Brandon can get away with dishonoring Barbrey Dustin, it is logical to assume that Oberyn can get away with dishonoring Ashara.  We need to understand that the actual dishonoring need not have taken place at Harrenhal.  The copulation took place before and Harrenhal was the place where it became public.  The date of the scandal is not when it happened but when it became public.  When the truth came out.  Oberyn need not be present at Harrenhal for the scandal to become public. 

4 - Brandon Stark.

The main suspect.  Brandon has a pattern of deflowering girls and leaving them to deal with the aftermath.  A small aftermath with Barbrey.  A bun baking in the oven with Ashara.  The actual act of the dishonor took place at Harrenhal.  Brandon goes to look for Ashara to speak on his brother's behalf.  He took it upon himself to enjoy Ashara and kicks her out of bed after his satisfaction.  Oh Ned!  Poor Ned.  Ned the cleaner.  Ned, the janitor of House Stark.  He takes it upon himself to comfort the distraught Ashara.  Have we not seen Ned clean up his family's mess repeatedly!  Who else can clean up and hide the scandal and make it go away, except a Stark, with the help of the Baratheon administration.  The Starks have a history of sweeping embarrassing family histories under the rug.  The Night's KIng was a Stark and yet that is not a well-known fact because it was swept under the rug centuries ago.

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow.  Ned cleans up after his brother and sister again.  He takes Lyanna's baby from the Tower of Joy and brings it to Starfall.  A baby trade was done.  Ned takes his brother's son north with him.  The one with the elongated appearance who could easily pass for his bastard.  The other one, from Lyanna, could not and was sent overseas with a disguised Ashara.  Similar to what Jon did later with the Rayder baby and the Craster baby.  A baby swap to protect one of the children from harm.  Both boys are bastards but Robert was out to kill all of the Targaryens so Ned was not about to take that chance after he saw what happened to Princess Rhaenys and the real Prince Aegon. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

4 - Brandon Stark.

The main suspect.  Brandon has a pattern of deflowering girls and leaving them to deal with the aftermath.  A small aftermath with Barbrey.  A bun baking in the oven with Ashara.  The actual act of the dishonor took place at Harrenhal.  Brandon goes to look for Ashara to speak on his brother's behalf.  He took it upon himself to enjoy Ashara and kicks her out of bed after his satisfaction.  Oh Ned!  Poor Ned.  Ned the cleaner.  Ned, the janitor of House Stark.  He takes it upon himself to comfort the distraught Ashara.  Have we not seen Ned clean up his family's mess repeatedly!  Who else can clean up and hide the scandal and make it go away, except a Stark, with the help of the Baratheon administration.  The Starks have a history of sweeping embarrassing family histories under the rug.  The Night's KIng was a Stark and yet that is not a well-known fact because it was swept under the rug centuries ago.

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow.  Ned cleans up after his brother and sister again.  He takes Lyanna's baby from the Tower of Joy and brings it to Starfall.  A baby trade was done.  Ned takes his brother's son north with him.  The one with the elongated appearance who could easily pass for his bastard.  The other one, from Lyanna, could not and was sent overseas with a disguised Ashara.  Similar to what Jon did later with the Rayder baby and the Craster baby.  A baby swap to protect one of the children from harm.  Both boys are bastards but Robert was out to kill all of the Targaryens so Ned was not about to take that chance after he saw what happened to Princess Rhaenys and the real Prince Aegon. 

Just one problem with that, if Jon is really Brandon's son then why does Ned never mention it? Sure Cat might be a little upset that her betrothed was sleeping around, but surely that's better than believing her husband cheated on her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Barristan believes she was dishonored. She probably just slept with one of the Stark brothers and Barristan sees that as a dishonor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

Just one problem with that, if Jon is really Brandon's son then why does Ned never mention it? Sure Cat might be a little upset that her betrothed was sleeping around, but surely that's better than believing her husband cheated on her.

There's also the small problem of the timeline's not matching up. We are never definitively told who is older out of Robb and Jon, but as young toddlers after the rebellion, everyone knew they were about the same age. If Jon had been conceived at Harrenhal, he would have been at least a full year older than Robb on kids that young the months really do make a difference in a child's appearance.

If Jon was that much older than Robb, everyone would know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

However, I believe it was more than that.  It was something upsetting enough to make Ashara turn to a stranger for emotional support

That’s your assumption, not George’s words. The books don’t say she turned to “Stark” for emotional support, the text says:

Quote

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Nothing about comfort or support. Barristan wishes he could have won her over (by crowning her the QOLAB) then she wouldn’t have looked to Stark and been “dishonoured” (and it’s Barristan that thinks that - we don’t know how Ashara felt about it, other than Barry suspecting that grief over the man who dishonoured her was a factor in her suicide).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

There's also the small problem of the timeline's not matching up. We are never definitively told who is older out of Robb and Jon, but as young toddlers after the rebellion, everyone knew they were about the same age. If Jon had been conceived at Harrenhal, he would have been at least a full year older than Robb on kids that young the months really do make a difference in a child's appearance.

If Jon was that much older than Robb, everyone would know.

It would only be a few months difference, not a year.  

 

 

Edited by Ahl of the House Cutler
I'm an idiot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

t would only be a few months difference, not a year.  

 

No, the tourney at HH was in 281 and Jon was born in 283.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Do you have a source claiming that Rob is a year older than Jon?  I don't think that that is accurate. 

 

 

The timeline is pretty loose and imprecise on purpose.  The author doesn't want to give anything away.  Jon could very easily be a lot older than he appears.  Poor Maester Luwin probably suspected this and made some silly excuse that bastards grow up faster than true born boys.  It's possible for Jon to have been conceived prior to the tourney. 

 

3 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

Just one problem with that, if Jon is really Brandon's son then why does Ned never mention it? Sure Cat might be a little upset that her betrothed was sleeping around, but surely that's better than believing her husband cheated on her.

There is nothing to rule out Brandon-Ashara as the parents.  I can see why Ned would keep that information hidden because it makes his older brother look like the butthole that he was.   It's best to avoid the subject altogether when you have a related secret.  Ned-Ashara is another possible set of parents for Jon because there is nothing to show that Ned's stay at Starfall was not extended. 

I agree with Aline.  The responsible and ever suffering Eddard Stark cleaned up the messes left behind by Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna.  Eddard would rather suffer than tarnish the public image of his older brother.  Lyanna ran off and betrayed her family and yet Eddard never stopped loving her.  Same thing with Brandon. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Barristan's thoughts and actions lead me to believe it was Brandon and not Eddard that slept with Ashara at Harrenhal. Barristan and Ned are friendly when Ned's in King's Landing. Barristan even goes to the sept and prays for Eddard's soul after he sees his execution.  

When Barristan thinks about the man Ashara turns too he refers to him as just "Stark" in his mind. Not Ned, Eddard or even Lord Stark. Why would he refer to Eddard with such a generic title that almost sounds like an insult? After he prayed for his soul? Barristan didn't know Brandon and probably didn't like him and that's why he refers to him with the cold label of "Stark."  Had it been Ned Barristan would have said as such and at the very least referred to him as "Lord Stark." A courtesy he does not have to give to Brandon Stark as Brandon was never officially Lord of Winterfell as he died before he could inherit that title. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The is no evidence that Brandon ever had any sexual relations with anybody besides Barbrey Ryswell . If Brandon did have  a blizzard of little Snows , where are they ? According to the 2ND Catelyn chapter in AGOT the Starks would have taken care of them so they should be some of Brandon's children running around Winterfell . And that does not explain the Daynes . Why would the Daynes tell everybody that Ashara and Ned fell in love ? I'll say it again Barrie was suffering from  a case of sour grapes , if Ashara had turn to him I am willing to bet he would have tainted his white cloak for her .

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Barristan's thoughts and actions lead me to believe it was Brandon and not Eddard that slept with Ashara at Harrenhal. Barristan and Ned are friendly when Ned's in King's Landing. Barristan even goes to the sept and prays for Eddard's soul after he sees his execution.  

When Barristan thinks about the man Ashara turns too he refers to him as just "Stark" in his mind. Not Ned, Eddard or even Lord Stark. Why would he refer to Eddard with such a generic title that almost sounds like an insult? After he prayed for his soul? Barristan didn't know Brandon and probably didn't like him and that's why he refers to him with the cold label of "Stark."  Had it been Ned Barristan would have said as such and at the very least referred to him as "Lord Stark." A courtesy he does not have to give to Brandon Stark as Brandon was never officially Lord of Winterfell as he died before he could inherit that title. 

I have to disagree there isn't any proof of a  great friendship between Ned and Barrie , there was mutual respect , and in Ned case admiration .Ashara Dayne is the sore spot with Barrie that if he was a better jouster he would have bested Rhaegar and crowned Ashara and there would not have been Robert's Rebellion .  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the-dayne-heiress-daenerys/

 

Rhaegar. As Ashara Dayne of Dorne was his paramour meant to be surrogate mother to his 3rd child. Rhaegar dishonored her when he chose Lyanna over her, the woman he had just met. Though Rhaegar was making good on everything, including calling together all the lords he had meant to at Harrenhal as indicated by his last conversation with Jamie.

Rhaegar as Daenery's father.

Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar hooked up upon Rhaegar's return to K.L. before his departure to doom.

Aerys as Daenery's father.

Aery's raped Ashara Dayne while at K.L.  not only is she the Dayne Heiress, she's Dayne Aery's. 

 

Before the sack of K.L. Ashara Dayne is spirited away in the morning as Jamie recalls as a decoy of Rhaella who had left a night as Viserys recalls. 

Did Ashara go to Dragonstone, or Starfall? I believe Dragonstone.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I have to disagree there isn't any proof of a  great friendship between Ned and Barrie , there was mutual respect , and in Ned case admiration 

I never said they were BFFs, but they had a relationship that went beyond just mutual respect. Barristan calls Ned by his first name Lord Eddard which implies a familiarity, instead it would just be Lord Stark or "Stark"  as he refers to Brandon in his thoughts. Barristan takes Ned's side in arguments while he's Hand of the King helping Ned. Barristan, while he's a wanted man in King's Landing no less, goes to the sept and prays for Eddard Stark's soul. To me that sounds like more then just mutual respect. Do you honestly think that if Barristan thought Eddard played any part in Ashara's dishonor, or suicide Barrristan would treat him with anything more then cool courtesy? Do you see him praying for the soul of a man who was responsible for stealing a night with his beloved dream women? I sure don't. I think it was Illyrio who said "he is known as Barristan the bold not the cunning." If Barristan had a problem with Ned it would have been transparent like his dislike for Jaime Lannister.

So I guess I agree to disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I never said they were BFFs, but they had a relationship that went beyond just mutual respect. Barristan calls Ned by his first name Lord Eddard which implies a familiarity, instead it would just be Lord Stark or "Stark"  as he refers to Brandon in his thoughts. Barristan takes Ned's side in arguments while he's Hand of the King helping Ned. Barristan, while he's a wanted man in King's Landing no less, goes to the sept and prays for Eddard Stark's soul. To me that sounds like more then just mutual respect. Do you honestly think that if Barristan thought Eddard played any part in Ashara's dishonor, or suicide Barrristan would treat him with anything more then cool courtesy? Do you see him praying for the soul of a man who was responsible for stealing a night with his beloved dream women? I sure don't. I think it was Illyrio who said "he is known as Barristan the bold not the cunning." If Barristan had a problem with Ned it would have been transparent like his dislike for Jaime Lannister.

While I generally agree with your conclusions, I'd be carefull with the bolded - Tywin is also referred to by his first name or as Lord Tywin, not Lord Lannister.

 

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar. As Ashara Dayne of Dorne was his paramour meant to be surrogate mother to his 3rd child. Rhaegar dishonored her when he chose Lyanna over her, the woman he had just met.

The girl was not crowned QoLaB versus the girl was impregnated outside wedlock. Which one constitutes a dishonour? I'd say that the former is more like slighted or embarrassed - the action of another doesn't do right by her but her own honour is intact because she didn't do anything wrong herself. Whereas, in the latter case, she is complicit in the misconduct, she indeed lost her honour by not obliging to the rules. I believe you are stretching the interpretation of "dishonour" over the limits to allow for your theory, despite the fact that the meaning in which "dishonour" in relation to a woman is used in ASOIAF is " one having premarital sex/ one geting pregnant outside marriage". Or is there a quote somewhere that Elia was dishonoured by not being crowned? I cannot recall.

 

ETA: I got back home and did the word search. There are two cases when the word "dishonor" can be interpreted as bringing shame to someone - when Ned claims he dishonoured himself as well as Cat by fathering a bastard, and the Freys claim that Robb breaking his word dishonoured them (as if they had any honor in the first place). However, the majority use is indeed that of one breaching the norms of conduct or vows, and extramarital sex (and fathering a bastard) is referred as dishonour in relation to Ygritte and Arianne 

Spoiler

and Sansa in TWOW

So: a possible dishonor by not being crowned versus a very sure dishonour by getting impregnated, mentioned in the same breath with having a stillborn baby. If you want to believe it is the former that Barristan means, fine, but I'm definitely going with the latter because it's a way more natural interpretation of Barristan's thoughts. It would be very weird if he made a big deal of the dishonour of not being crowned while the really big dishonour of getting impregnated somehow wouldn't be worth mentioning.

Edited by Ygrain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The timeline is pretty loose and imprecise on purpose.  The author doesn't want to give anything away.  Jon could very easily be a lot older than he appears.  Poor Maester Luwin probably suspected this and made some silly excuse that bastards grow up faster than true born boys.  It's possible for Jon to have been conceived prior to the tourney.

No it isn't. It honestly frustrates me when people misunderstand this point to the frankly ridiculous extent that they do. 'Bastards grow up faster than trueborn boys'. Do you honestly think that he's referring to physical development? Of course he isn't! To read that statement and take it to mean that Jon physically aged faster than Robb, meaning he is in fact older than Ned says he is, is; to be perfectly honest; just plain stupid.

Luwin says this in relation to emotional growth. Jon; and bastards in general; mature quicker as a product of the world and how bastards are typically treated; he does not mean they actually grow quicker.

So no, Jon could not have been conceived at or before the tourney. The tourney of Harrenhal took place in 281. Roberts Rebellion broke out in 282. The end of the rebellion, Robb's birth and Ned leaving Dorne with baby Jon all occur in 283. We don't know when in the year Harrenhal was. If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal and we assume Harrenhal took place towards the end of the year, then he would have been born in late 282 at the latest. Robb was born mid 283. That's almost a year's difference minimum. A 12 month old toddler looks and acts very different from a 3 month old. People would be able to tell. In the story however, it seems like they were very close in age (as in a month or two difference) and always have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm of the personal opinion that the Stark Ashara looked to was Ned; although admittingly the saying can be seen as ambiguous, Barristan Selmy, as far as we know, never personally met Brandon.

Also, Barristan refers to the man that Ashara went to simply as "Stark". I get the impression that when you refer to a noble by simply their last name, it means that they are the ruling lord/lady, because that person represents the entire house and thus everyone knows who they are. If Ashara "looked to Stark", two logical choices come up: Rickard Stark, who was "the Stark" at the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal, or Ned, who was the Stark right before the War of the Five Kings and since Robb is dead, Bran and Rickon are presumed dead, Sansa is in hiding and Arya is in Braavos and thusly displaced, that leaves only Ned being "the Stark". Also, out of all the Starks Ned is the only one Barristan has met, so it would make sense that when he thinks "Stark" he thinks of Ned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brandon is the most likely to dishonour Ashara.  I will agree with the OP that involved getting her preggers because it would have gone undisclosed otherwise.  I will continue to support N + A = J though.  Ashara's baby may have died at birth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

Just one problem with that, if Jon is really Brandon's son then why does Ned never mention it? Sure Cat might be a little upset that her betrothed was sleeping around, but surely that's better than believing her husband cheated on her.

Ned is fucked up and does a lot of inexplicable things, this being just one of many.

Sparing Catelyn's feelings about Brandon's infidelity and tormenting her with his own - typical Ned.

Secrecy - had he been legitimate Jon Snow would be ahead of Ned in the line of succession to Winterfell. There is the danger that somebody, someday, could try to use him to usurp Robb.  So, an unusually wise decisions by Ned, pass of his nephew as his own bastard AND as younger tha Robb. Even a broken clock is right two times a day ...

Timing is OK - Brandon and Ashara were doing the bump and grind at the time of Lyanna's kidnapping, making Jon 3-4 months older than Robb. Claiming that the two boys are of same age when Rob is almost 1 and Jon was not much over 1 year of age is absolutely possible.

Children are delivered in various sizes and then grow and pass various milestones at different speeds.

 

Edited by TMIFairy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

There's also the small problem of the timeline's not matching up. We are never definitively told who is older out of Robb and Jon, but as young toddlers after the rebellion, everyone knew they were about the same age. If Jon had been conceived at Harrenhal, he would have been at least a full year older than Robb on kids that young the months really do make a difference in a child's appearance.

If Jon was that much older than Robb, everyone would know.

Would they? One wonders...

 

Quote

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

Craven or not, Samwell Tarly had found the courage to accept his fate like a man. On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns, Benjen Stark had said the last night Jon had seen him alive. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you. He'd heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

 

Quote
"I might get her with child."
"Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?"
Words failed him for a moment. "The boy . . . the child would be a bastard."
"Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?"
"No, but—"
"You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."
"I will not father a bastard."

 

They aren't weaker or more sickly. But are they stronger and healthier?

Edited by Corvo the Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was Brandon, although I wouldn't consider the identity of the man who "dishonoured" Ashara to be significantly important to the plot going forward. It's more of an easter egg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now