Ashara's "Boyfriend"

[Corvo the Crow]

15 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

It was Brandon, although I wouldn't consider the identity of the man who "dishonoured" Ashara to be significantly important to the plot going forward. It's more of an easter egg.

Why, though? For all we know Barbrey Dustin was the only one he "dishonored" and his intention was to marry her anyway, if not for Maester Walys. He wasn't travelling around the 7K participating in feasts and tourneys, in search of great lords' maiden daughters he can deflower.

It was Eddard who actually took a liking to her it is Eddard they remember fondly and name their heir after and it is Eddard who Ashara falls in love with, according to this said heir and her "aunt". Allyria.

Somewhat off topic but Eddard's mother is named Lyarra which is a strikingly similar name to Allyria, don't you think?

 

[Consigliere]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Why, though? For all we know Barbrey Dustin was the only one he "dishonored" and his intention was to marry her anyway, if not for Maester Walys. He wasn't travelling around the 7K participating in feasts and tourneys, in search of great lords' maiden daughters he can deflower.

It was Eddard who actually took a liking to her it is Eddard they remember fondly and name their heir after and it is Eddard who Ashara falls in love with, according to this said heir and her "aunt". Allyria.

Somewhat off topic but Eddard's mother is named Lyarra which is a strikingly similar name to Allyria, don't you think?

 

There is absolutely no solid evidence to support that Ned took a liking to Ashara. I mean we have 15 chapters of Ned's POV where he does not think about Ashara even once. A bit odd wouldn't you say?

As for your off topic: Lyarra was also Brandon's mother so the name bearing any resemblance to Allyria works just as well for Brandon as it does for Ned.

Then we also have Barristan's thoughts who we know had a serious crush on Ashara and according to him, young girls choose fire  over mud. Now between Brandon and Ned, from what we know of their personalities, who who you consider to be "fire" and "mud" between the two?

[Knight Of Winter]

I believed it Ned, till this blatantly obvious passage convinced me otherwise. Here, Barristan muses about Dany's chances of loving Quentyn:

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful (Ned) … but not the sort to make a young girl's (Ashara's) heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen (Ashara), whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter ((Brandon). She wants fire (Brandon), and Dorne sent her mud (Ned).

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls (Ashara) would choose fire (Brandon) every time.

Barristan is speaking from a personal experience here, methinks.

[Consigliere]

2 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I believed it Ned, till this blatantly obvious passage convinced me otherwise. Here, Barristan muses about Dany's chances of loving Quentyn:

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful (Ned) … but not the sort to make a young girl's (Ashara's) heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen (Ashara), whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter ((Brandon). She wants fire (Brandon), and Dorne sent her mud (Ned).

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls (Ashara) would choose fire (Brandon) every time.

Barristan is speaking from a personal experience here, methinks.

Yes, I agree. We know Barry had a major crush on Ashara so it is reasonable to conclude that he is speaking from experience here. From what we know of their personalities, between Brandon and Ned, it is blatantly obvious which one is "fire" and which one is "mud".

[Ygrain]

2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yes, I agree. We know Barry had a major crush on Ashara so it is reasonable to conclude that he is speaking from experience here. From what we know of their personalities, between Brandon and Ned, it is blatantly obvious which one is "fire" and which one is "mud".

Amen to that.

[Livesundersink]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Secrecy - had he been legitimate Jon Snow would be ahead of Ned in the line of succession to Winterfell. There is the danger that somebody, someday, could try to use him to usurp Robb.  So, an unusually wise decisions by Ned, pass of his nephew as his own bastard AND as younger tha Robb. Even a broken clock is right two times a day ...

If he is legitimate then marry him to Sansa or Arya, cousins marry all the time and it still secure the alliance with the riverlands.

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I believed it Ned, till this blatantly obvious passage convinced me otherwise. Here, Barristan muses about Dany's chances of loving Quentyn:

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful (Ned) … but not the sort to make a young girl's (Ashara's) heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen (Ashara), whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter ((Brandon). She wants fire (Brandon), and Dorne sent her mud (Ned).

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls (Ashara) would choose fire (Brandon) every time.

Barristan is speaking from a personal experience here, methinks.

He doesn't specify which Stark and he didn't see anything or hear of it from some other witness, at best he is going off of rumors and which Stark has rumors of being in love with Ashara? From Winterfell to King's Landing, the rumored Stark is Eddard, not Brandon.

25 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

There is absolutely no solid evidence to support that Ned took a liking to Ashara. I mean we have 15 chapters of Ned's POV where he does not think about Ashara even once. A bit odd wouldn't you say?

As for your off topic: Lyarra was also Brandon's mother so the name bearing any resemblance to Allyria works just as well for Brandon as it does for Ned.

Then we also have Barristan's thoughts who we know had a serious crush on Ashara and according to him, young girls choose fire  over mud. Now between Brandon and Ned, from what we know of their personalities, who who you consider to be "fire" and "mud" between the two?

No solid evidence on Brandon taking a liking either. Also a reminder, Ned doesn't talk (or think) much about his dead siblings and dead father either so the quote below will be best we get on him and Ashara.

Quote

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Not only he tells her not to ask about Jon but he also forbids anyone talking about Ashara. If he didn't care at all about her he may have just forbid Cat asking about Jon but let the servants be, which would be beneficial as a misdirection about Jon's parentage.

 

Also Allyria can be explained by Lyarra also being the mother of Brandon. Ned's name can be explained for Ned bringing their ancestral sword back. The Dayne story of Ashara falling in love with Eddard and jumping from the tower because of it? No explanation. They may very well have said that Ashara fell in love with Brandon, she had a stillborn daughter so she committed suicide, both lovers being dead raises fewer answerable questions than one dead and one alive.

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Ned is fucked up and does a lot of inexplicable things, this being just one of many.

Sparing Catelyn's feelings about Brandon's infidelity and tormenting her with his own - typical Ned.

Secrecy - had he been legitimate Jon Snow would be ahead of Ned in the line of succession to Winterfell. There is the danger that somebody, someday, could try to use him to usurp Robb.  So, an unusually wise decisions by Ned, pass of his nephew as his own bastard AND as younger tha Robb. Even a broken clock is right two times a day ...

Timing is OK - Brandon and Ashara were doing the bump and grind at the time of Lyanna's kidnapping, making Jon 3-4 months older than Robb. Claiming that the two boys are of same age when Rob is almost 1 and Jon was not much over 1 year of age is absolutely possible.

Children are delivered in various sizes and then grow and pass various milestones at different speeds.

 

Few problems here.

1) Sparing Cat's feelings, sure. That makes sense

2) Even if Jon was Brandon's; which he absolutely isn't; he would have no claim with which to usurp Robb. He is a bastard. The entire North would know that he was a bastard even if he was Brandon's son. By the time such a thing could happen; which it likely never would; Ned would have had led the North through at least one war and had years to win the support of his bannermen. Who would they choose: their beloved Ned's trueborn son Robb, or the bastard son of reckless and hotheaded Brandon who had never ruled them? It would be literally everyone against...who? The Dustin's? Maybe the Ryswell's too. I doubt even Bolton would jump on that sinking ship, not when Ned's two BFF's are the King of Westeros and the guy who can make the road to Moat Cailin a death trap.

3) Timing- No, they weren't. Harrenhal was in 281, probably sometime in the middle of the year. Lyanna was 'abducted'  and the rebellion began in 282. Jon being conceived at Harrenhal puts his birth sometime mid-late 282 at the latest. Robb was born in early-mid 283. That's a 6-12 month difference. And Robb would have only been a few months old when Ned got back from the wall with another child. Had that child been Brandon and Ashara's, he would have at least 6 months on Robb. That's a difference that would show on toddlers. As in, show so much it can't be passed off as a different growth rate.

If you really want to believe that Brandon and Ashara had a child then go ahead. It's possible, even if I believe Ned was the one she had a thing with. But it won't be Jon. Out of all the characters still alive it's far more likely that fAegon is their kid, and I don't even put much stock in that.

[Consigliere]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No solid evidence the other way around either. Also a reminder, he doesn't talk (or think) much about his dead siblings and dead father either so the quote below will be best we get on him and Ashara.

Err, based on what we know about the characters of Ned and Brandon, it is far more likely for Brandon to be the one who "dishonored" Ashara. Based on hearsay, Ned was in love with Ashara but banged Wylla? Does this in any way resemble the Ned Stark that Martin has portrayed through 15 POV chapters?

[Ygrain]

19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He doesn't specify which Stark and he didn't see anything or hear of it from some other witness, at best he is going off of rumors and which Stark has rumors of being in love with Ashara? From Winterfell to King's Landing, the rumored Stark is Eddard, not Brandon.

And it is easy to see where the rumours came from: Lots of people saw Ned dancing with Ashara. Ashara had a baby, Ned Stark has a bastard son. Ashara committed suicide after being visited by Ned Stark. 1+1=2, case closed. 

 

[TMIFairy]

26 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Few problems here.

3) Timing-

I do not say that Jon was beget on Ashara by Brandon during the Tournament. I am saying that he impregnated her in 282, around the time of Lyanna's kidnapping.

Taking travel times into account it is possible that four - max five - months passed between that event and Ned's marriage to Catelyn. 

For N+A=J you can shave off a month.

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The is no evidence that Brandon ever had any sexual relations with anybody besides Barbrey Ryswell . If Brandon did have  a blizzard of little Snows , where are they ? According to the 2ND Catelyn chapter in AGOT the Starks would have taken care of them so they should be some of Brandon's children running around Winterfell . And that does not explain the Daynes . Why would the Daynes tell everybody that Ashara and Ned fell in love ?

 

1. They're not important to the plot. 

2. Would Catelyn take care of them? Just look at the way she is with Jon.

3. To keep up the pretense if Jon turns out to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son? Plus, it doesn't seem that Ned is the lover of Ashara Dayne, since there is a Dayne, Edric, who has a nickname of Ned, which he shares with Eddard "Ned" Stark.

4. "A blizzard of little Snows." 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think Ashara is just part of a pretty large cover-up. 

I have to wonder, though. Did Barristan ever hear of the rumors that she was Jon Snow's mother? Cersei has clearly heard them since she throws them in Ned's face. And both she and Barry live in King's Landing, so I would think that if he was invested in Ashara and what happened to her, that this is something he may have known of.

Is he just dismissing the story because it's easier to believe that the stillborn daughter was Brandon's because of the kind of personality Brandon had vs Ned's personality, even though everyone in the 7Ks knows that Ned fathered a bastard? 

That strikes me as odd.

[Angel Eyes]

I also might add: If Ned and Ashara turn out to be Jon's parents, is it possible that the stillborn daughter and Jon were twins, ala Naerys Targaryen giving birth to Daenerys daughter of Aegon IV alongside a stillborn son?

[Angel Eyes]

What we know of Ned's character points to Ned having a strong attachment to Jon Snow's mother, whether or not it was Wylla, Ashara or Lyanna. Ned does not take his vows lightly.

[Consigliere]

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Ashara is just part of a pretty large cover-up. 

I think Ashara being Jon's mother is just a red herring, just like Wylla and the fisherman's daughter i.e. those who have been explicitly mentioned in the text as Jon's mother.

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have to wonder, though. Did Barristan ever hear of the rumors that she was Jon Snow's mother? Cersei has clearly heard them since she throws them in Ned's face. And both she and Barry live in King's Landing, so I would think that if he was invested in Ashara and what happened to her, that this is something he may have known of.

I disagree about Cersei. Yes, she mentioned Ashara but she also mentions "some Dornish peasant" so I don't think we can take here views as anything more than hearsay.

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Is he just dismissing the story because it's easier to believe that the stillborn daughter was Brandon's because of the kind of personality Brandon had vs Ned's personality, even though everyone in the 7Ks knows that Ned fathered a bastard? 

That strikes me as odd.

Who is dismissing what story? Barristan merely states that Ashara has a stillborn daughter. He in no way even insinuates that that daughter might have been Neds nor Brandons.

 

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

What we know of Ned's character points to Ned having a strong attachment to Jon Snow's mother, whether or not it was Wylla, Ashara or Lyanna. Ned does not take his vows lightly.

We know that according to Cat whoever Jon's mother was, Ned loved her dearly. There are only four women Ned actually thinks about in his 15 POV chapters - his wife (Cat), his daughters (Arya and Sansa) and Lyanna. Take your pick.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

41 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I think Ashara being Jon's mother is just a red herring, just like Wylla and the fisherman's daughter i.e. those who have been explicitly mentioned in the text as Jon's mother.

Agreed. I have to admit, though, I do love the way Godric Borrell tells his stories.

41 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I disagree about Cersei. Yes, she mentioned Ashara but she also mentions "some Dornish peasant" so I don't think we can take here views as anything more than hearsay.

Cersei is repeating a story that is similar to the what Catelyn heard from the servants who heard it from Ned's soldiers (minus the Dornish peasant and the insinuation of rape). She isn't saying anything that we didn't hear before. Cersei is doing what Catelyn did. She is repeating a rumor that she heard, which is why I wonder if Ser Barristan heard the same rumor and is choosing to ignore that version in favor to of the stillborn daughter.

I don't think it matters all that much though.

[Consigliere]

3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Agreed. I have to admit, though, I do love the way Godric Borrell tells his stories.

Cersei is repeating a story that is similar to the what Catelyn heard from the servants who heard it from Ned's soldiers (minus the Dornish peasant and the insinuation of rape). She isn't saying anything that we didn't hear before. Cersei is doing what Catelyn did. She is repeating a rumor that she heard, which is why I wonder if Ser Barristan heard the same rumor and is choosing to ignore that version in favor to of the stillborn daughter.

Another thing to consider is that Cersei left court when Tywin did whereas Barristan was still there. So while Cat and Cersei are relying on rumours, I think Barry is more "in the know". The author just hasn't revealed this yet. At the end of the day, I think the " stillborn daughter" is actually correct and it's just the long wait between books that has resulted in fandom coming up with fantastical theories.

[Corvo the Crow]

 

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Err, based on what we know about the characters of Ned and Brandon, it is far more likely for Brandon to be the one who "dishonored" Ashara. Based on hearsay, Ned was in love with Ashara but banged Wylla? Does this in any way resemble the Ned Stark that Martin has portrayed through 15 POV chapters?

And what do we know about their characters? That Brandon is a womanizer who has womanised just one person, a highborn lady he promised to marry when he wasn't even betrothed to anyone? Ned banging Wylla is a cover up story made by the Daynes which is probably not even known by anyone outside Starfall so it's more of a cover up for Ashara and Allyria than it is for Jon so it doesn't need to make much sense on Jon and Eddard.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And it is easy to see where the rumours came from: Lots of people saw Ned dancing with Ashara. Ashara had a baby, Ned Stark has a bastard son. Ashara committed suicide after being visited by Ned Stark. 1+1=2, case closed. 

 

Harrenhal was the biggest for a long time so this means many attendants and with Essos constantly getting supplied by Westerosi exiles, there could be some present in Harrenhal that has joined the Green Company. Lots of people saw her dance with Jon Connington too but when he turns up with (f)Aegon, no one in the Grolden Company assumes it is his bastard from Ashara when (f)Aegon and Ashara even share their eye colors. Instead, they take his word that it is Rhaegar's.

 

 

How about this story: Brandon is known to be the biggest womanizer North has ever seen. People see them talking and some months later Ashara has a stillborn child and commits suicide. And Ned returns home with a bastard but since he is this honoroble decent dude, he can't be the one dishonoring her so the bastard must be from Brandon. Losing a lover, a brother, and a child Ashara now commits suicide. Why don't we see this version of the story? This one makes a lot more sense if Brandon was a known womanizer and Ned a guy who wouldn't dishonor anyone?

 

[Consigliere]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And what do we know about their characters? That Brandon is a womanizer who has womanised just one person, a highborn lady he promised to marry when he wasn't even betrothed to anyone? Ned banging Wylla is a cover up story made by the Daynes which is probably not even known by anyone outside Starfall so it's more of a cover up for Ashara and Allyria than it is for Jon so it doesn't need to make much sense on Jon and Eddard

We know a massive amount about Ned's character (and back when Martin had this series pegged as a trilogy). Bottom line is, Ned in love with Ashara but banging Wylla is completely and utterly at odds with the character that Martin presented. There is no way around that. Bottom line is this; there seems to be a bunch of people who desperately want the "nerdy" Ned to have "boned" the hot chick. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Ned actually had any sexual relationship with Ashara or anyone really prior to his marriage yet we know that Brandon "took what he wanted" and his personality is far more fitting with Barristan's definition of young girls choosing"fire" over "mud", a question you've consistently ignored.