Ashara's "Boyfriend"

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I do not say that Jon was beget on Ashara by Brandon during the Tournament. I am saying that he impregnated her in 282, around the time of Lyanna's kidnapping.

Taking travel times into account it is possible that four - max five - months passed between that event and Ned's marriage to Catelyn. 

For N+A=J you can shave off a month.

Harrenhal seems to be the only time Ashara and Brandon were ever in the same vicinity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Ashara not return to K.L/Dragonstone with Elia after the tourney? And Brandon to Winterfell with a visit to Riverrun at some point for the Littlefinger duel (or did that happen before?)

[Corvo the Crow]

55 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

We know a massive amount about Ned's character (and back when Martin had this series pegged as a trilogy). Bottom line is, Ned in love with Ashara but banging Wylla is completely and utterly at odds with the character that Martin presented. There is no way around that. Bottom line is this; there seems to be a bunch of people who desperately want the "nerdy" Ned to have "boned" the hot chick. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Ned actually had any sexual relationship with Ashara or anyone really prior to his marriage yet we know that Brandon "took what he wanted" and his personality is far more fitting with Barristan's definition of young girls choosing"fire" over "mud", a question you've consistently ignored.

As I said earlier it looks like a cover up story and not for the sake of Jon but for Allyria. We know the way most people South of the Wall look at bastards. We've seen it through the eyes of Jon. mostly but we see other glimpses of it. Like how Sybell Spicer reacts when she learns the bride Tywin promised for her son is a bastard and this comes from a woman whose own family is an upjumped line of merchants, only noble for two-three generations and her husbands line is an old but impoverished one. Without Tywin's arrengements Joy would never be able to get a betrothal to an heir. Allyria is betrothed to a great lord, do you think if she was a bastard Beric Dondarrion would be betrothed to her?

As for taking what he wants, to our knowledge Brandon has so far only took what he wanted with Barbrey Ryswell. His hot headedness and any other qualities are irrelevant or would you suggest like her brother Brandon travelling around and taking what he wanted from any highborn women, Lyanna gave what she wanted to any highbor men? They are, after all both have Wolf's blood.

Finally, being his brother, Eddard would know Brandon much better than anyone else, save a few people like other family members or Barbrey. Do we once see Eddard thinking or talking badly about Brandon? If he dishonored Ashara, when he thinks of him wouldn't he think how much of an asshole he is for taking what he wanted? Ned must have taken some liking to Ashara as we see he wants to dance with her but is too shy to ask. Wouldn't it be a dick move towards your brother to first get his hopes up by talking the girl he likes into a dance with him and then "bone" her?

[Consigliere]

59 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As I said earlier it looks like a cover up story and not for the sake of Jon but for Allyria. We know the way most people South of the Wall look at bastards. We've seen it through the eyes of Jon. mostly but we see other glimpses of it. Like how Sybell Spicer reacts when she learns the bride Tywin promised for her son is a bastard and this comes from a woman whose own family is an upjumped line of merchants, only noble for two-three generations and her husbands line is an old but impoverished one. Without Tywin's arrengements Joy would never be able to get a betrothal to an heir. Allyria is betrothed to a great lord, do you think if she was a bastard Beric Dondarrion would be betrothed to her?

Nah, it doesn't look like a cover story at all. It looks like a story you made a made to support another story that you made up. Furthermore, Allyria is a true born Dayne so her betrothal to Beric needs no explanation at all. Once again, apart from pure fan speculation, there is nothing to suggest that Allyria is a bastard.

 

59 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Finally, being his brother, Eddard would know Brandon much better than anyone else, save a few people like other family members or Barbrey. Do we once see Eddard thinking or talking badly about Brandon?

Yes, we do have some evidence:

“She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”
That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

 

59 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If he dishonored Ashara, when he thinks of him wouldn't he think how much of an asshole he is for taking what he wanted? Ned must have taken some liking to Ashara as we see he wants to dance with her but is too shy to ask. Wouldn't it be a dick move towards your brother to first get his hopes up by talking the girl he likes into a dance with him and then "bone" her?

There is no evidence to suggest Ned wanted to dance with Ashara, only that he was too shy to dance with anyone. Once again, Ned being in love with Ashara but banging Wylla makes absolutely no sense given the character that Martin established and Ned not thinking even once about Ashara even once during 15 POV chapters is further proof that any romance between them is nothing more than wishful thinking.

[maudisdottir]

20 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

There is no evidence to suggest Ned wanted to dance with Ashara, only that he was too shy to dance with anyone.

I would take that even further and suggest that it was all Brandon's idea, and Ned was his cover to go and chat up Ashara for himself. He's apparently doing his shy, plain brother a favour by asking her to dance, so to everyone else there (including Ashara) he looks like a good guy. Ned was just a smokescreen all along for Brandon to secretly hook up with her.

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Who was the man who dishonored Ashara Dayne?  I believe the identity of this man will be important to the plot going forward.  There are many possible men who could have done this but the unusual suspects will almost certainly be sons of the Great Houses or, dare I say it, from the royal household itself.  We need to decide between two forks in the road before we can proceed with the discussion.  We have to decide what Barristan meant by - dishonor.  This is a pretty vague term with a wide breadth of meaning coming from an honorable man like Ser Barristan Selmy.  It can mean something as innocuous as love that was not reciprocated by the man.  However, I believe it was more than that.  It was something upsetting enough to make Ashara turn to a stranger for emotional support.  This second fork in the road is the one that I will pursue.  The dishonor was of a sexual nature that resulted in Ashara getting pregnant. 

The Unusual Suspects

1 - King Aerys Targaryen. 

Without doubt, he is the only person in the whole kingdom who is above the law.  Aerys was the law.  By definition, Aerys cannot do anything unlawful.  The kingdom belonged to the Targaryens and Aerys was the king at the time.  Every member of every noble house in the kingdom was his subject.  Aerys can do what he will with Ashara and get away with it. 

I do not think it was Aerys.  Don't you think the Starks and the Baratheons will still, up to the present, still blame Aerys?  Sure they would have.  Robert took the throne and he can (and did) slander every member of House Targaryen.  Every sin, minor or major, committed by the Targaryens were used by the Baratheon-Stark publicity machine.  The fact that they did not pin this on Aerys tells me that the king is not guilty.

2 - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rhaegar was not above the law.  He was still a subject of the king.  However, for the same reasons that I struck Aerys from the list of suspects, I will do the same for Rhaegar.  Ned would think negatively of Rhaegar, even curse him, if the prince had dishonored Ashara. 

3 - Oberyn Martell.

The Martells are the lords of the Daynes.  So if Brandon can get away with dishonoring Barbrey Dustin, it is logical to assume that Oberyn can get away with dishonoring Ashara.  We need to understand that the actual dishonoring need not have taken place at Harrenhal.  The copulation took place before and Harrenhal was the place where it became public.  The date of the scandal is not when it happened but when it became public.  When the truth came out.  Oberyn need not be present at Harrenhal for the scandal to become public. 

4 - Brandon Stark.

The main suspect.  Brandon has a pattern of deflowering girls and leaving them to deal with the aftermath.  A small aftermath with Barbrey.  A bun baking in the oven with Ashara.  The actual act of the dishonor took place at Harrenhal.  Brandon goes to look for Ashara to speak on his brother's behalf.  He took it upon himself to enjoy Ashara and kicks her out of bed after his satisfaction.  Oh Ned!  Poor Ned.  Ned the cleaner.  Ned, the janitor of House Stark.  He takes it upon himself to comfort the distraught Ashara.  Have we not seen Ned clean up his family's mess repeatedly!  Who else can clean up and hide the scandal and make it go away, except a Stark, with the help of the Baratheon administration.  The Starks have a history of sweeping embarrassing family histories under the rug.  The Night's KIng was a Stark and yet that is not a well-known fact because it was swept under the rug centuries ago.

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow.  Ned cleans up after his brother and sister again.  He takes Lyanna's baby from the Tower of Joy and brings it to Starfall.  A baby trade was done.  Ned takes his brother's son north with him.  The one with the elongated appearance who could easily pass for his bastard.  The other one, from Lyanna, could not and was sent overseas with a disguised Ashara.  Similar to what Jon did later with the Rayder baby and the Craster baby.  A baby swap to protect one of the children from harm.  Both boys are bastards but Robert was out to kill all of the Targaryens so Ned was not about to take that chance after he saw what happened to Princess Rhaenys and the real Prince Aegon. 

 

 

I have two objections to this. Firstly the loose thread in Barristan thinking that Dany looks like Asharas daughter which, if true, mucks your theory up.

Secondly I think that Barristan means that he should have crowned Ashara and thus preventing her from turning to Stark and thus preventing her from being dishonoured. Its ambiguously written to be sure but I still think its there for a reason, kind of like an untrustworthy clue.

(The Daynes have so much going on, with Dawn, Ashara, Gerold, Darkstar, Allyria and Ned, purple eyes originating not from Valyria and not from the Targs. Other than Dany's conquest and Nymerias wolf-army, finding out what the hell is up with the Daynes is my main interest right now. Really hope GRRM won't sit on all of it until Spring though.  )

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

7 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I would take that even further and suggest that it was all Brandon's idea, and Ned was his cover to go and chat up Ashara for himself. He's apparently doing his shy, plain brother a favour by asking her to dance, so to everyone else there (including Ashara) he looks like a good guy. Ned was just a smokescreen all along for Brandon to secretly hook up with her.

If Ashara hooked up with Brandon, then why does a Dayne believe Ashara and Ned fell in at Harrenhal?  

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Why, though? For all we know Barbrey Dustin was the only one he "dishonored" and his intention was to marry her anyway, if not for Maester Walys. He wasn't travelling around the 7K participating in feasts and tourneys, in search of great lords' maiden daughters he can deflower.

In Barbrey's own words:

Quote

Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."

Quote

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing.

Brandon had a thing for deflowering virgins.

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not only he tells her not to ask about Jon but he also forbids anyone talking about Ashara.

Where does he forbid anyone? He says "Never ask me about Jon" and then Cat notes the whispering stopped and Ashara's name was never mentioned again. But she doesn't say anything about Ned forbidding them to talk about Ashara.

10 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

If Ashara hooked up with Brandon, then why does a Dayne believe Ashara and Ned fell in at Harrenhal?  

Because Brandon was already betrothed, but Ned was single. Ashara being dishonoured would be bad enough, but getting knocked up by a man already promised to someone else would be even more shameful.

And that's not even taking into consideration the mystery surrounding Ashara's potential role at the TOJ. We don't know what (if anything) Arthur/Rhaegar/Ned roped her into. The Daynes may or may not even be aware of the truth. There may be other reasons to cover it up, that will be revealed in later books.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

Where does he forbid anyone? He says "Never ask me about Jon" and then Cat notes the whispering stopped and Ashara's name was never mentioned again. But she doesn't say anything about Ned forbidding them to talk about Ashara.

Because Brandon was already betrothed, but Ned was single. Ashara being dishonoured would be bad enough, but getting knocked up by a man already promised to someone else would be even more shameful.

And that's not even taking into consideration the mystery surrounding Ashara's potential role at the TOJ. We don't know what (if anything) Arthur/Rhaegar/Ned roped her into. The Daynes may or may not even be aware of the truth. There may be other reasons to cover it up, that will be revealed in later books.

Only Barristan believes Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. So because Brandon is promised to another and knocks up Ashara, her family member is going to believe or tell people Ashara and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal, that just doesn't make sense. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Nah, it doesn't look like a cover story at all. It looks like a story you made a made to support another story that you made up. Furthermore, Allyria is a true born Dayne so her betrothal to Beric needs no explanation at all. Once again, apart from pure fan speculation, there is nothing to suggest that Allyria is a bastard.

 

 

Below is Beric Dondarrion, a young lord, betrothed to Allyria Dayne

Quote

"Lord Beric is as much a hero as Ser Loras. He's ever so brave and gallant."

"I suppose," Sansa said doubtfully. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better.

 

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

Regarding when a woman marries

Quote

I'll get you with child as soon as you're able," Joffrey said as he escorted her across the practice yard. "If the first one is stupid, I'll chop off your head and find a smarter wife. When do you think you'll be able to have children?"

Sansa could not look at him, he shamed her so. "Septa Mordane says most … most highborn girls have their flowering at twelve or thirteen."

Sansa

Quote

This offer did surprise him. "Sansa is only eleven."

Robert waved an impatient hand. "Old enough for betrothal. The marriage can wait a few years." The king smiled. "Now stand up and say yes, curse you."

 

"She is no more than a child."

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."

Shae is all the woman I need just now, he thought, and Sansa's a girl, no matter what you say

 

 

She seems to have flowered when she's 12

 

Alys

Quote

This girl is almost of an age with me. "Has she eaten?" Jon asked Mully.

Clydas moved closer. "Poor child. How old are you?"

"Sixteen on my next nameday. And no child, but a woman grown and flowered."

"Before the war I was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood. We were only waiting till I flowered to be wed, but the Kingslayer killed Daryn in the Whispering Wood. My father wrote that he would find some southron lord to wed me, but he never did. Your brother Robb cut off his head for killing Lannisters." Her mouth twisted. "I thought the whole reason they marched south was to kill some Lannisters."

She's 15 now and flowered but she wasn't at the start of the war. She would be 14 at the time, considering Jon wasn't even 15 when he left for the wall

Quote

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day

 

 

Now some information on current Dayne family

 

Quote

 

Arya got goosebumps when Lord Beric said her father's name, but this Ned was only a boy, a fair-haired squire no more than ten or twelve. He stepped up quickly to undo the clasps that fastened the battered steel about the Marcher lord. The quilting beneath was rotten with age and sweat, and fell away when the metal was pulled loose. Gendry sucked in his breath. "Mother have mercy."

"How long have you been Lord Beric's squire?" she asked, to take his mind from his misery.

"He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt." He coughed. "I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings."

 

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born."

 

Arthur was born in 260 or earlier, wiki says. Though information on wiki isn't always correct, I am unable to confirm at this time. Edric's father would be even older.  Ashara would be in her thirties if she lived, says  GRRM, Ned would be 37 and according to Ser Barristan, Ashara wasn't long at court at the time of Harrenhal, so at most Ashara would be more or less the same age with Ned.

 

Quote

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

 

If all the previous generation of Daynes were living we would have Arthur, who is at least forty years old, Edric's father, who is even older and Ashara possibly in mid or late thirties... And then we have Allyria, we don't know how old she is but she is betrothed to a 22 year old lord for the last 3-4 years and from what we see with betrothals, they were probably waiting for her to flower.

If Ashara had a daughter, she wouldn't even be a year older than Robb. I choose Robb over Jon because Robb's birth of date is indisputable, he was conceived during the wedding night. He is 15 in MC

Quote

"I will be sixteen soon enough," Robb said.

"And you are fifteen now. Fifteen, and leading a host to battle. Can you understand why I might fear, Robb?"

 

Any child of Ashara conceived in Harrenhal would be 16 now. But at the start of the war, it would be 15. Remember Alys? She's 15, will be 16 on her next name day but at the start of the war, when she was 14, she wasn't yet flowered. Now think if Ashara had a daughter, 15 years at the start of the war. She may not be flowered yet, like Alys. Or she may have flowered only recently and Beric was only waiting to return to Blackhaven or Starfall to marry her after delivering justice to Gregor Clegane.

An age gap of more than 15 years, possibly near 20 between the youngest Dayne "siblings". An age gap which would allow Allyria to be young enough to be Ashara's daughter?

 

Can you see now where my fan speculation comes?

 

 

 

 

Quote

Yes, we do have some evidence:

“She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”
That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

This isn't him thinking badly about Brandon. He didn't want Winterfell or Catelyn.

Also on "Brandon would know what to do" and "It was all meant for Brandon", think of Tywin's father, Tytos. He was in such a bad situation because he was never prepared for lordship. He was neither the heir nor the spare. He was the third son so no one thought he would be ruling Casterly Rock. None of it was meant for Tytos and he doesn't know what to do. In Eddard's case, while he isn't a bad ruler because he was the spare and possibly also due to his character, it was never meant for him either.

 

Quote

There is no evidence to suggest Ned wanted to dance with Ashara, only that he was too shy to dance with anyone. Once again, Ned being in love with Ashara but banging Wylla makes absolutely no sense given the character that Martin established and Ned not thinking even once about Ashara even once during 15 POV chapters is further proof that any romance between them is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Can't dispute this, it may be as you say. He may be too shy to ask anyone to dance but why Ashara specifically? Because Brandon took a liking to her?

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Where does he forbid anyone? He says "Never ask me about Jon" and then Cat notes the whispering stopped and Ashara's name was never mentioned again. But she doesn't say anything about Ned forbidding them to talk about Ashara.

Well, perhaps with him being a nice guy he didn't forbid anyone, after learning from her wife where she heard the name from, he just went to the servants and asked nicely that if it would be too hard to not talk of Ashara and since their lord asked them so politely they decided they would rather not upset him as he is such a nice fellow and decided not to speak of her ever again. Doesn't matter which. After Catelyn tells him where he heard Ashara's name from, Ashara's name is never heard again.

[Nevets]

I think the Barbrey/Brandon story could be an indicator of what happened between Ned and Ashara.  They may have had a romance (consummated or not) with the expectation of a future marriage.  They were each a good match for the other.  Given that Brandon was already claimed, and Ned wasn't, if Ashara had a relationship with a Stark, I think Ned is the more likely.  As for Barristan's claims about mud and fire, given George's penchant for unreliable narrators, I will take it with a dose of skepticism.  

[AlaskanSandman]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

While I generally agree with your conclusions, I'd be carefull with the bolded - Tywin is also referred to by his first name or as Lord Tywin, not Lord Lannister.

 

The girl was not crowned QoLaB versus the girl was impregnated outside wedlock. Which one constitutes a dishonour? I'd say that the former is more like slighted or embarrassed - the action of another doesn't do right by her but her own honour is intact because she didn't do anything wrong herself. Whereas, in the latter case, she is complicit in the misconduct, she indeed lost her honour by not obliging to the rules. I believe you are stretching the interpretation of "dishonour" over the limits to allow for your theory, despite the fact that the meaning in which "dishonour" in relation to a woman is used in ASOIAF is " one having premarital sex/ one geting pregnant outside marriage". Or is there a quote somewhere that Elia was dishonoured by not being crowned? I cannot recall.

 

ETA: I got back home and did the word search. There are two cases when the word "dishonor" can be interpreted as bringing shame to someone - when Ned claims he dishonoured himself as well as Cat by fathering a bastard, and the Freys claim that Robb breaking his word dishonoured them (as if they had any honor in the first place). However, the majority use is indeed that of one breaching the norms of conduct or vows, and extramarital sex (and fathering a bastard) is referred as dishonour in relation to Ygritte and Arianne 

  Reveal hidden contents

and Sansa in TWOW

So: a possible dishonor by not being crowned versus a very sure dishonour by getting impregnated, mentioned in the same breath with having a stillborn baby. If you want to believe it is the former that Barristan means, fine, but I'm definitely going with the latter because it's a way more natural interpretation of Barristan's thoughts. It would be very weird if he made a big deal of the dishonour of not being crowned while the really big dishonour of getting impregnated somehow wouldn't be worth mentioning.

Well we both know i dont believe for a moment that Brandon low balled his brother for Ashara just cause he took another womans virginity so he must have a thing for it. 

Not to mention Brandon died to early to father either of our two important characters or any other characters for that matter. And i dont believe Ashara's birthing was in 282. 

Also Martin keeps hinting at 2 brothers warring for their sister as hinted at by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield being linked to Aemon the Dragon Knight. Who both were Kings Guard knights and brothers to the Targaryen King and both loved their sister. Its the cyclic story playing out all over, not just with Dany.

Aemon vs Aegon Iv for Naerys

Daemon vs Daeron for Daenerys

Visenya vs Rhaenys for Aegon

Stannis vs Renly for the Throne(Amethyst Empress was key to the throne, the sister inherited the throne so the brothers could only rule through her.).

Bloodraven vs Bittersteel for Shiera

Jon vs Aegon for Daenerys.  Who all are children of Rhaegar by different mothers. The three heads of Rhaegars dragons. One head devouring the other. Its all in the narrative laid out by Martin in the back drop.

[AlaskanSandman]

No Brandon vs Eddard for Ashara doesn't count lol 

Neither are Targaryens and Ashara isn't their sister. The cyclic story just has to do with the Dragon family of which House Baratheon is apart of. 

Also lets not forget Ashara killed her self over the  loss of the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. Brandon died in 282. If Ashara was grief stricken over Brandon, she would have killed her self then. No, she kills her self at the end of the war, following the death of Rhaegar. 

Not to mention the song Arya hears about some stupid lady throwing herself from a cliff for her dead prince. Only prince who died other than Martell, was Rhaegar. 

There are just far more clues to point to what im saying. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Some added metaphors that point to the same narrative

With Stannis and Renly facing off. Stannis is the fire brother with his fire priestess with him, while Renly represents the Ice brother, with Brienne in her Blue Armor.

The Tourney of Harrenhal and the Hands Tourney? Rhaegar wearing red and black giving a blue rose to a Stark, while Loras wears silver Armor with Blue Saphires and gives a red rose to a Stark. Fire and Ice

Jon is the Ice brother and Aegon is the fire brother. Daenerys is the one they'll compete over  

[AlaskanSandman]

Its also worth mentioning that the 3 Og siblings were children of Garth who came to embody his three different aspects death (Ice), life (fire), and fertility. 

Daenerys is the fertility aspect of the trio, hence her birthing dragons back into the world.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aemon vs Aegon Iv for Naerys

Actually I think it was Egg's sisters that were fighting over him. Something about how Egg told Dunk that Naerys put a love potion in his drink so he'd marry her instead of their other sister. Then Dunk was all creeped out about how casually Aegon talked about incest but was like "Targaryens are ganna Targaryen" then banged his head on a ceiling beam while he was distracted by thinking about all of this so he threatened to clout Egg on his ear even though he has never done it before.

Yes I'm pretty sure this is exactly how it happened.

Edit: whooopps wrong Aemon and Aegon. But another Targaryen triangle sort of.

Rhae vs  Daella for Aegon V

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Actually I think it was Egg's sisters that were fighting over him. Something about how Egg told Dunk that Naerys put a love potion in his drink so he'd marry her instead of their other sister. Then Dunk was all creeped out about how casually Aegon talked about incest but was like "Targaryens are ganna Targaryen" then banged his head on a ceiling beam while he was distracted by thinking about all of this so he threatened to clout Egg on his ear even though he has never done it before.

Yes I'm pretty sure this is exactly how it happened.

 

Im referring to Aemon the Dragon Knight vs his brother the King Aegon IV the Unworthy who both loved Naerys. Her children rumored to be Aemon's.

[Son of Man]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:02 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Who was the man who dishonored Ashara Dayne?  I believe the identity of this man will be important to the plot going forward.  There are many possible men who could have done this but the unusual suspects will almost certainly be sons of the Great Houses or, dare I say it, from the royal household itself.  We need to decide between two forks in the road before we can proceed with the discussion.  We have to decide what Barristan meant by - dishonor.  This is a pretty vague term with a wide breadth of meaning coming from an honorable man like Ser Barristan Selmy.  It can mean something as innocuous as love that was not reciprocated by the man.  However, I believe it was more than that.  It was something upsetting enough to make Ashara turn to a stranger for emotional support.  This second fork in the road is the one that I will pursue.  The dishonor was of a sexual nature that resulted in Ashara getting pregnant. 

The Unusual Suspects

1 - King Aerys Targaryen. 

Without doubt, he is the only person in the whole kingdom who is above the law.  Aerys was the law.  By definition, Aerys cannot do anything unlawful.  The kingdom belonged to the Targaryens and Aerys was the king at the time.  Every member of every noble house in the kingdom was his subject.  Aerys can do what he will with Ashara and get away with it. 

I do not think it was Aerys.  Don't you think the Starks and the Baratheons will still, up to the present, still blame Aerys?  Sure they would have.  Robert took the throne and he can (and did) slander every member of House Targaryen.  Every sin, minor or major, committed by the Targaryens were used by the Baratheon-Stark publicity machine.  The fact that they did not pin this on Aerys tells me that the king is not guilty.

2 - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rhaegar was not above the law.  He was still a subject of the king.  However, for the same reasons that I struck Aerys from the list of suspects, I will do the same for Rhaegar.  Ned would think negatively of Rhaegar, even curse him, if the prince had dishonored Ashara. 

3 - Oberyn Martell.

The Martells are the lords of the Daynes.  So if Brandon can get away with dishonoring Barbrey Dustin, it is logical to assume that Oberyn can get away with dishonoring Ashara.  We need to understand that the actual dishonoring need not have taken place at Harrenhal.  The copulation took place before and Harrenhal was the place where it became public.  The date of the scandal is not when it happened but when it became public.  When the truth came out.  Oberyn need not be present at Harrenhal for the scandal to become public. 

4 - Brandon Stark.

The main suspect.  Brandon has a pattern of deflowering girls and leaving them to deal with the aftermath.  A small aftermath with Barbrey.  A bun baking in the oven with Ashara.  The actual act of the dishonor took place at Harrenhal.  Brandon goes to look for Ashara to speak on his brother's behalf.  He took it upon himself to enjoy Ashara and kicks her out of bed after his satisfaction.  Oh Ned!  Poor Ned.  Ned the cleaner.  Ned, the janitor of House Stark.  He takes it upon himself to comfort the distraught Ashara.  Have we not seen Ned clean up his family's mess repeatedly!  Who else can clean up and hide the scandal and make it go away, except a Stark, with the help of the Baratheon administration.  The Starks have a history of sweeping embarrassing family histories under the rug.  The Night's KIng was a Stark and yet that is not a well-known fact because it was swept under the rug centuries ago.

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow.  Ned cleans up after his brother and sister again.  He takes Lyanna's baby from the Tower of Joy and brings it to Starfall.  A baby trade was done.  Ned takes his brother's son north with him.  The one with the elongated appearance who could easily pass for his bastard.  The other one, from Lyanna, could not and was sent overseas with a disguised Ashara.  Similar to what Jon did later with the Rayder baby and the Craster baby.  A baby swap to protect one of the children from harm.  Both boys are bastards but Robert was out to kill all of the Targaryens so Ned was not about to take that chance after he saw what happened to Princess Rhaenys and the real Prince Aegon. 

 

 

Good theory and it was Brandon.  It happened at Harrenhall.  Was it rape though?  I think not. This has been said many times that the story is about people making poor choices.  Ashara agreed to sleep with Brandon and he was more than happy to take the cherry.  The deed did not necessarily result in pregnancy for the scandal to brew.  To sleep with Brandon was a scandal enough thing to do for a lady of virtue. 

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im referring to Aemon the Dragon Knight vs his brother the King Aegon IV the Unworthy who both loved Naerys. Her children rumored to be Aemon's.

Yeah, my mistake. I was thinking of the Aemon and Aegon brother combo that came after. I realized that right after I posted it. Must be because I just reread the Sworn Sword. I corrected it in the edit after. It was Egg's sister Rhae Targaryen that put the love potion in his drink so he would marry her instead of her sister Daella. But like I said it's one more Targaryen triangle of sorts even though they were children.

Rhae vs Daella for Aegon V. 

I'm sure if Rhae had known Egg would be King someday she would have kept spiking his drinks with love potions.