Ashara's "Boyfriend"

[AlaskanSandman]

Unless we're just gonna conveniently act like what she said about Brandon and blood is true, but not the bit about him not being happy to Wed Cat and him and Barbary seeing each other well past one time. 

This kind of cherry picking hardly has much ground i would argue. 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I take issue with this.

Thanks for enlightening me haha.

By maesters are you referring to post count, haha?

This is my perspective. The five books Martin wrote in the supposedly seven book never-ending story needs to make sense without the extra material.

As far as ASOIAF is concerned Martin as of book five has not confirmed Lyanna & Rhaegar as Jon Snow’s parents.

As I see it Mr. Martin, if he wants acclaim needs to have the story make sense without extra material. Extra material is interesting and enjoyable.

Think about this for a nano second. If you had not read the as yet incomplete Dunk & Egg tales would you connect Bloodraven to Bran’s old man in the CotF cave? I wouldn’t have.

With Mr. Martin’s gardening style wtf knows where this story is going.

I give Mr. Martin thumbs down on Eddard’s bastard mother story writing --- Ashara, the fisherman’s daughter, Wylla. Did I leave out any other false leads, haha?

Lol no no haha i just mean people repeating what the Maester's say for example in TWOIAF. Maester claims sound logical but for the information they're disregarding of which we know many to be true already. This alone should call into question anything the maesters say at all, yet, some on here cling to what they say like it's the definitive end all be all. That makes me kind of wonder if im dealing with Flat Earth Truthers or something haha

I give Martin a double thumbs up over his writing ability as he misdirects you first with public whispers and perceptions while cleverly hiding the real details through out the books. He very much has a HP Love Craft writing nack.

[maudisdottir]

11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Specially since he stopped seeing Barbary once it was said he was to wed Cat

Where does it say that? Their "last night together" wasn't necessarily when he broke up with her, it might just mean the last time she saw him before he died. He may have fully intended to continue their affair when he returned from Riverrun, but that's just speculation, as is your claim that he stopped seeing her once he became betrothed to Cat.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, maudisdottir said:

Where does it say that? Their "last night together" wasn't necessarily when he broke up with her, it might just mean the last time she saw him before he died. He may have fully intended to continue their affair when he returned from Riverrun, but that's just speculation, as is your claim that he stopped seeing her once he became betrothed to Cat.

Well, typically when a man and woman speak of their "last night together", they're referring to their last night of sex. You of course can take it all how you want but as for me, every angle to me looks the same. Brandon was a honorable good guy. 

Which explains him hooking Ned up with a dance makes perfect sense given he knows what its like to have young puppy love before having to marry some one by force. He would want his younger brother to know that puppy love too. The brother we are told multiple times had a relationship or something going with Ashara that night at Harrenhal. As suggested by House Dayne them selves.  

As you say though, just my opinion

[AlaskanSandman]

If you can ever get past Brandon and Ashara. It leaves only one other option for the "dishonoring of Harrenhal" as we know for sure Ned wouldn't rape any one.

The dishonoring of Harrenhal was Rhaegar putting Ashara aside for Lyanna. Causing her to "look to Stark" twice. As she would look to Lyanna the moment she got crowned, as every one else did. Then, she turned to Eddard in her pain. As one man put her aside, she turned to another in her vulnerability. 

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Feels like I'm in a conspiracy forum where people believe that the president is a lizard.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Nowhere does Brandon profess love for her, or secretly propose, as I've seen claimed in these threads recently. This is all wishful thinking on Barbrey (and her father's) part.

Agreed - When Lady Barbrey reminisces of Brandon, her admiration for him, etc she sounds like the ex-love affair on the side who still tells herself that her lover would have left his wife, but didn't for the children and then he died in some car accident. More this lover also boasted to her about how he loves to shag women. In one paragraph, Lady Barbrey declares Brandon to be a player, a conquerer of girls, declares how he boasted about it to her, and she looks down on the "other women" (because he fooled them all), but it was "true love" between Brandon and herself. Yeah, right... Chances that Barbrey's beliefs about Brandon's feelings for her and how he does not want Cat are true are 0.0000000000001%

[Ygrain]

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed - When Lady Barbrey reminisces of Brandon, her admiration for him, etc she sounds like the ex-love affair on the side who still tells herself that her lover would have left his wife, but didn't for the children and then he died in some car accident. More this lover also boasted to her about how he loves to shag women. In one paragraph, Lady Barbrey declares Brandon to be a player, a conquerer of girls, declares how he boasted about it to her, and she looks down on the "other women" (because he fooled them all), but it was "true love" between Brandon and herself. Yeah, right... Chances that Barbrey's beliefs about Brandon's feelings for her and how he does not want Cat are true are 0.0000000000001%

Exactly.

Besides, if Brandon loved so much, why don't we hear that he opposed to Rickard's arrangement with Hoster? Did Rickard hold a sword to his throat, or threatened to disinherit him? For someone wild and apparently used to having his way, Brandon seemed awfully meek in this respect...

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And how would you know what your lord was doing, unless you were either expressly told or had spies in his household? It's not like Rickard had a FB profile with regular updates about his activities.

And sorry but Lord Ryswell deducing - if he even knew in the first place - that Tywin having plans for Jaime with Lysa means that Cat is promised to Brandon is a veeeery huge leap of logic, requiring Lord Ryswell to keep tabs on the marriage negotiations of every single House of importance.

Lord Ryswell may not be aware of, say, whether the only daughter of Toletts, bannermen of Royces' who are vassals in the Vale is betrothed to someone or not, they may not even heard that heir of Flints of Flint's Cliff married to one of the dozen lords sworn to Manderly but this is Brandon Stark the heir of Starks we are talking about, considering how nobles of the 7K seem to generally marry within their own kingdom, Brandon Stark was the no. 1 bachelor at the time. If he was betrothed to anyone, it would be known throughout the realm. Without PortraitTomes or whatever FB equivelant would be named in Westeros, it may take some time but unless it was a secret betrothal like Viserys-Arianne, which it wasn't, it would be known eventually.

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Don't be ridiculous. Petyr deflowered Lysa because she crawled into his bed when he was so drunk that he even didn't know whom he was shagging.

Plus, I never claimed that Brandon was a womanizer in the sense of chasing every skirt. I said he was not beyond taking an advantage of a maiden, because that's what his affair with Barbrey shows us. We never see such a situation for Ned, and Ned's son amends deflowering a maiden by marrying her, putting her honour above his.

So Lysa was willing and perhaps Petyr wouldn't be so shaggy if he could identify Lysa correctly at the time. Does that make any difference? Was Barbrey raped by Brandon when Lysa came to Petyr willingly? This just shows to us unlike Brandon, Petyr put no effort to be able to dishonor a highborn maiden, not that he was beyond dishonoring her, as he did dishonor her.

One question; what do you think would happen if Petyr was sober and it was Catelyn who came to his bed and not Lysa. Would he turn her down? Unless your answer is yes then all of this is irrelevant as Petyr would also be not beyond taking an advantage of a maiden. It is even more so taking advantage of a maiden in Petyr's case because while Brandon wasn't betrothed, there's this chance he may marry Barbrey, whereas Petyr had no chance ever of marrying any Tully daughters.

Brandon's and Robb's situation are completely different. Robb is the ruling lord, he may choose his bride as he likes while Brandon is not so free with his father alive. Robb's and Ned's situations are somewhat similar for as far as the people of Westeros are concerned and they acted differently, in quite the opposite way in fact:

1) If we consider Ned dishonored Ashara as people believe; Robb isn't only "making amends" for dishonoring Jeyne, putting her honor above his, he also dishonors the contract he made himself and spits on Freys' honor whereas with N+A story Ned does quite the opposite, not only he honors a contract made by Lord Rickon for betrothing Brandon, not him, to Catelyn, he also chooses Catelyn over Ashara he dishonored.

2)If we also consider Jon is honorable Ned's bastard as far as everyone knows, save a few who are actually in the know. Disregarding whether Jon is Ashara's son or Wylla's or someone completely different honorable Ned chose Catelyn over Jon's mother, if he was conceived by the fisherman's daughter or Ashara, therefore dishonoring Jon's mother or even worse, he wasn't uncomfortable with dishonoring both Catelyn, by having affairs with another woman while married to her and Jon's mother, having an affair with her when he wasn't able to marry her.

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A wrong assumption on your part. Unless he had parked a part of his army somewhere close to ToJ and picked them on his way to Starfall, the information that he had been to Starfall to return Dawn must come from Ned himself because Howland Reed would hardly share the story. Mind you: at some point, Ned returned to KL to inform Robert about Lyanna's death and made up with him, and this is also the point when Ned needs to explain why he made the detour to Starfall (unless he went to KL first and to Starfall only afterwards, under the pretext of returning Dawn but in reality to pick up Jon, who had either been sent there by the KG prior Ned's arrival, or by Ned himself to make sure that he, Lyanna's bones and the baby are never seen together)

I may have been unclear on this. Let me try to clarify it;

Ned goes with an army to Storm's End to lift the siege. He later goes to Dorne, we don't know whether he has an army at his back or not but he only goes with 7 to ToJ. Considering the fact he pinpointed exactly where Lyanna was and takes only a small group of people, most of whom are around the same age with him(if not all of them), I believe he was tipped off as to Lyanna's whereabouts and perhaps what to expect. If he wasn't told about what would he find then he may deducted himself that in a medieval setting if a man first openly shows interest to a beautiful young woman and then kidnaps her, he will probably have his way with her, which may result in children. So being tipped off, young Ned doesn't take Roose Bolton or Wyman Manderly or uncles Umber, he only takes people he knows for sure that he could put his trust in, which would mostly be young lords or young sons of lords as he would be spending more time with them, like Edmure and his heir buddies. Back on track, events of ToJ happens and he goes to Starfall, without his troops, if he even brought them from Storm's End at the first place. Events of Starfall happen, he goes back and picks his army, if he left them near ToJ or SE or they go directly to KL if the army returned there. He or Howland tells some story or other upon their return to whichever place, tales spread like wildfire.

In no way Ned went to Starfall with his troops, or else we wouldn't have the story of Jon being Ashara's son at the first place. It is, at least in Winterfell, Ned's soldiers who spread the tale, if they were present with Ned on his journey to Starfall then they would be aware of Jon, after all, it is hard to hide the fact that you are travelling with a crying wailing babe.

I also don't think Ned went to Starfall, left Jon, then to KL with Lyanna's bones and and then to Starfall again, to "leave Daynes their sword" and returns with Jon.

Though a bit off topic, here are some stuff on people relevant to Ned & Jon

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What Robert knows:

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

 

 

What Arya learns:

 

"He is my milk brother."

Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

 

What Catelyn knows:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

 

What Cersei knows:

"Must!" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. "The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." Her hand touched his face, his hair. "If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it."

"Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?"

She slapped him.

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

 

 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lord Ryswell may not be aware of, say, whether the only daughter of Toletts, bannermen of Royces' who are vassals in the Vale is betrothed to someone or not, they may not even heard that heir of Flints of Flint's Cliff married to one of the dozen lords sworn to Manderly but this is Brandon Stark the heir of Starks we are talking about, considering how nobles of the 7K seem to generally marry within their own kingdom, Brandon Stark was the no. 1 bachelor at the time. If he was betrothed to anyone, it would be known throughout the realm. Without PortraitTomes or whatever FB equivelant would be named in Westeros, it may take some time but unless it was a secret betrothal like Viserys-Arianne, which it wasn't, it would be known eventually.

You're vastly overestimating the way news spread across Westeros, and as for the bolded, how do you know? What if Rickard wanted to keep it a bit hush-hush in the North, for some political play? For instance, if his bannermen knew that Brandon was no longer an option, they would immediately start doing what lord Ryswell did - set their eyes on Ned. Who at 18 was still unbetrothed to anyone - why?

BTW, if GRRM didn't change his mind about the date when Cat was promised to Brandon, then Brandon was 14-15 at that time (Cat born 264 or 265, he 262). When might he have started his sex life, I wonder?

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So Lysa was willing and perhaps Petyr wouldn't be so shaggy if he could identify Lysa correctly at the time. Does that make any difference? Was Barbrey raped by Brandon when Lysa came to Petyr willingly? This just shows to us unlike Brandon, Petyr put no effort to be able to dishonor a highborn maiden, not that he was beyond dishonoring her, as he did dishonor her.

You're completely missing the point. The boldest Petyr went on his own was trying to kiss Cat at the feast when he was drunk; if Lysa hadn't initiated the sex, nothing would have happened. After he was spurned and injured... well, whatever moral inhibitions he might have started with went to hell afterwards.

Unlike Petyr (not that I am excusing him), Brandon has no excuse of trauma of unrequited love, and he knows pretty well what behavour befits the heir of House Stark or not. Yet, he takes advantage of his father's bannerman's daughter, under the man's own roof. 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One question; what do you think would happen if Petyr was sober and it was Catelyn who came to his bed and not Lysa. Would he turn her down? Unless your answer is yes then all of this is irrelevant as Petyr would also be not beyond taking an advantage of a maiden. It is even more so taking advantage of a maiden in Petyr's case because while Brandon wasn't betrothed, there's this chance he may marry Barbrey, whereas Petyr had no chance ever of marrying any Tully daughters.

But the problem is, Cat would never come because she always abode by her duty, and that was to remain a virgin till the wedding. Hypothetically, I don't see Petyr turning her down, though, because he is a self-serving little shite and always had. However, while Hoster Tully would never allow him to marry Cat, Brandon still accepted his challenge to duel for her, as if the chance did exist (or perhaps it was just Brandon's ego).

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Brandon's and Robb's situation are completely different. Robb is the ruling lord, he may choose his bride as he likes while Brandon is not so free with his father alive. Robb's and Ned's situations are somewhat similar for as far as the people of Westeros are concerned and they acted differently, in quite the opposite way in fact:

You're contradicting yourself with the below: since he is promised, Robb cannot choose his bride as he likes.

 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

1) If we consider Ned dishonored Ashara as people believe; Robb isn't only "making amends" for dishonoring Jeyne, putting her honor above his, he also dishonors the contract he made himself and spits on Freys' honor

Well, that's what's meant by putting Jeyne's honour above his own: by honouring her, he dishonours himself by breaking his word to the Freys.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

whereas with N+A story Ned does quite the opposite, not only he honors a contract made by Lord Rickon for betrothing Brandon, not him, to Catelyn, he also chooses Catelyn over Ashara he dishonored.

Hypothetically :-)

Except, it doesn't explain why Ned never tried to convince Rickard to let him marry Ashara in those months between HH and Brandon's death.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

2)If we also consider Jon is honorable Ned's bastard as far as everyone knows, save a few who are actually in the know. Disregarding whether Jon is Ashara's son or Wylla's or someone completely different honorable Ned chose Catelyn over Jon's mother, if he was conceived by the fisherman's daughter or Ashara, therefore dishonoring Jon's mother or even worse, he wasn't uncomfortable with dishonoring both Catelyn, by having affairs with another woman while married to her and Jon's mother, having an affair with her when he wasn't able to marry her.

The first part is incorrect - he certainly never pretends to be cool with his affair, and as for the latter, it's one of the reason why it must have been a commonborn girl and not a highborn lady.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I may have been unclear on this. Let me try to clarify it;

Ned goes with an army to Storm's End to lift the siege. He later goes to Dorne, we don't know whether he has an army at his back or not but he only goes with 7 to ToJ. Considering the fact he pinpointed exactly where Lyanna was and takes only a small group of people, most of whom are around the same age with him(if not all of them), I believe he was tipped off as to Lyanna's whereabouts and perhaps what to expect. If he wasn't told about what would he find then he may deducted himself that in a medieval setting if a man first openly shows interest to a beautiful young woman and then kidnaps her, he will probably have his way with her, which may result in children. So being tipped off, young Ned doesn't take Roose Bolton or Wyman Manderly or uncles Umber, he only takes people he knows for sure that he could put his trust in, which would mostly be young lords or young sons of lords as he would be spending more time with them, like Edmure and his heir buddies.

Agreed.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Back on track, events of ToJ happens and he goes to Starfall, without his troops, if he even brought them from Storm's End at the first place. Events of Starfall happen, he goes back and picks his army, if he left them near ToJ or SE or they go directly to KL if the army returned there. He or Howland tells some story or other upon their return to whichever place, tales spread like wildfire.

In no way Ned went to Starfall with his troops, or else we wouldn't have the story of Jon being Ashara's son at the first place. It is, at least in Winterfell, Ned's soldiers who spread the tale, if they were present with Ned on his journey to Starfall then they would be aware of Jon, after all, it is hard to hide the fact that you are travelling with a crying wailing babe.

That would depend when and where Ned picked Jon and how he arranged his passage to the North. Personally, I would ask my pal Howland to transport the baby to the North and switch the wetnurses along the way, so that no traces connecting Jon to the South were left, and the first time people heard I had a bastard was when the said bastard arrived at Winterfell. Meanwhile, I would dawdle a bit in the South doing all kinds of Important Jobs, so that everyone and their mother saw I had absolutely no baby with me and never even heard of one.

Speaking of rumours circulating around Winterfell: there is one that Jon's mother was commonborn, and that also must have originated from somewhere.

 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Though a bit off topic, here are some stuff on people relevant to Ned & Jon

I know them, thanks :-)

BTW, the one Cat heard also shows that the source of the soldiers' gossip is incorrect - a fight of seven against three is hardly a single combat, unless they are referring to the part when Ned was nearly killed by Arthur and saved by Howland's intervention (that doesn't comply with "single" combat, either, but I doubt that was a detail Ned would have wanted to share).

[Alexis-something-Rose]

55 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Speaking of rumours circulating around Winterfell: there is one that Jon's mother was commonborn, and that also must have originated from somewhere.

The common born mother rumor must have come after Ned put an end to all Ashara talk. It's always interesting how characters try to explain things away. I will never forget Sansan's "eww" moment when she thinks about Jon's mother.

55 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

BTW, the one Cat heard also shows that the source of the soldiers' gossip is incorrect - a fight of seven against three is hardly a single combat, unless they are referring to the part when Ned was nearly killed by Arthur and saved by Howland's intervention (that doesn't comply with "single" combat, either, but I doubt that was a detail Ned would have wanted to share).

I've always been of the opinion that this story about Ned killing Arthur in single combat is one Ned wanted others to know. Catelyn hears the story from the servants who heard it from Ned's soldiers who were nowhere near that situation. At best, it's 3rd hand information, at worst, the story changed several times before Catelyn ever heard it.

Single combat would have happened only if Ned and Arthur were the last two men left standing, I'm assuming. Howland Reed can't sit a horse properly, but travels a long distance to get to Dorne and he's not great with a sword, so he may have stayed out of the fight entirely. Ethan Glover must have been pretty young since he was Brandon's squire, so that's another person who may not have mattered in a fight. So that leaves the odds at 5 on 3. 

This is why I find it so shocking that all 3 Kingsguard died, especially when the dialogue between Ned and all 3 seems to indicate that they thought they might have been able to turn the tide on the Trident had they been there. Ned's story doesn't hold much water to me. But then Ned also knows how to fib and we know he fibs when he feels the end justifies the means.

[Corvo the Crow]

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You're vastly overestimating the way news spread across Westeros, and as for the bolded, how do you know? What if Rickard wanted to keep it a bit hush-hush in the North, for some political play? For instance, if his bannermen knew that Brandon was no longer an option, they would immediately start doing what lord Ryswell did - set their eyes on Ned. Who at 18 was still unbetrothed to anyone - why?

BTW, if GRRM didn't change his mind about the date when Cat was promised to Brandon, then Brandon was 14-15 at that time (Cat born 264 or 265, he 262). When might he have started his sex life, I wonder?

You're completely missing the point. The boldest Petyr went on his own was trying to kiss Cat at the feast when he was drunk; if Lysa hadn't initiated the sex, nothing would have happened. After he was spurned and injured... well, whatever moral inhibitions he might have started with went to hell afterwards.

Unlike Petyr (not that I am excusing him), Brandon has no excuse of trauma of unrequited love, and he knows pretty well what behavour befits the heir of House Stark or not. Yet, he takes advantage of his father's bannerman's daughter, under the man's own roof. 

But the problem is, Cat would never come because she always abode by her duty, and that was to remain a virgin till the wedding. Hypothetically, I don't see Petyr turning her down, though, because he is a self-serving little shite and always had. However, while Hoster Tully would never allow him to marry Cat, Brandon still accepted his challenge to duel for her, as if the chance did exist (or perhaps it was just Brandon's ego).

 

I won't be able to answer to all right now.  Will try to answer the rest later

On Ned being free: Second sons usually aren't the best candidates for your daughter, with no lands of their own. There are exceptions of course but even Robar Royce, from the most powerful vassal house in the vale don't get to marry. He becomes kingsguard to Renly.

Ned may have been given some lands to rule over in Brandon's name of course, with Starks being the regional overlord of the biggest region, but it would happen after Brandon became the heir.

 

On Petyr, Brandon and Tullys: My point is, Petyr loved Catelyn so he wouldn't have turned her down and not turning her down doesn't mean he would go chase after every highborn maiden he sets his eye on. Petyr wasn't active the way Brandon was, true, but the active Brandon may also have loved Barbrey and no one else. We can never know so we shouldn't just take a portion of what Barbrey says as truth while thinking all the rest as her imagination.

On timeline: Again I think there are some mistakes. Sansa flowered when she was 12, Septa Mordane says most highborn maids flower when they are 12-13.  There are some like Alys(14-15), true but with all we know Catelyn and Brandons betrothal took far too long if she was betrothed to him when she was twelve. Lysa, two years younger than Catelyn has no trouble getting pregnant when she's 15-16 so Catelyn should have been married to Brandon already with all our knowledge.

 

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You're contradicting yourself with the below: since he is promised, Robb cannot choose his bride as he likes.

No, I am not; Robb could have chosen anyone to be his bride before he agreed to Walder Frey's offer. After being betrothed to an unknown Frey girl, of course he can't marry anyone outside the Frey family but prior to that he was free to choose anyone as the current ruling Stark. Which Brandon wasn't.

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Well, that's what's meant by putting Jeyne's honour above his own: by honouring her, he dishonours himself by breaking his word to the Freys.

 

By dishonoring the contract he chose Jeyne's honor over  Freys' honor.

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Hypothetically :-)

Except, it doesn't explain why Ned never tried to convince Rickard to let him marry Ashara in those months between HH and Brandon's death.

Well, that's the tale. At least the most prominent one circulating around.

Ned the second son isn't certain to get married. With the power of their house, he may get lands by Brandon or Cat and Brandon exceeds expectations in child making in a very short time so he may just go to the Wall like Benjen did.

 

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The first part is incorrect - he certainly never pretends to be cool with his affair, and as for the latter, it's one of the reason why it must have been a commonborn girl and not a highborn lady.

We know it as we are reading the books. His immediate circle may also be in the know. Not everyone knows though. I very much doubt that the quiet Ned is seeking comfort with Roose Bolton telling him about how wicked he is for fathering a bastard.

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That would depend when and where Ned picked Jon and how he arranged his passage to the North. Personally, I would ask my pal Howland to transport the baby to the North and switch the wetnurses along the way, so that no traces connecting Jon to the South were left, and the first time people heard I had a bastard was when the said bastard arrived at Winterfell. Meanwhile, I would dawdle a bit in the South doing all kinds of Important Jobs, so that everyone and their mother saw I had absolutely no baby with me and never even heard of one.

 

Splitting doesn't make much sense to me as they are already down to two people in a still war torn land. Even with the war is over there'd be broken men, bandits and whatever prowling around.

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Speaking of rumours circulating around Winterfell: there is one that Jon's mother was commonborn, and that also must have originated from somewhere.

It must have been one much later than Ashara story. Quite possibly it spreaded from White Harbor after war is over, with it's origin being the Sisters.

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BTW, the one Cat heard also shows that the source of the soldiers' gossip is incorrect - a fight of seven against three is hardly a single combat, unless they are referring to the part when Ned was nearly killed by Arthur and saved by Howland's intervention (that doesn't comply with "single" combat, either, but I doubt that was a detail Ned would have wanted to share).

They weren' present so they don't know. In their minds surely it wasn't the small crannogmen who slayed the deadliest sword in the realm, but Boromir the Tall... I mean Eddard Stark, being their lord and (t)all.

[Faera]

The only people who know what really happened that day are Eddard Stark and Howland Reed, meaning they control the narrative absolutely. So, if the official story is that Arthur Dayne was killed in single combat by Eddard Stark, that might simply be the story the Daynes were fed to give their fallen Sword of the Morning a fitting death. If that was the story that got told, it'll be the one that stuck.

Based on what little we know, I really wouldn't be surprised if it turned out little Howland Reed was actually the one who killed Arthur Dayne. We know that despite their reputation crannogmen are not completely hopeless melee fighters though they are very unconventional. Their use of spears, nets and stealth is not only unusual but little known. Together with the fact that it wasn't single combat but seven-facing-three and Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him but for Howland -- it isn't hard to imagine him doing to Arthur what Meera did to Summer or Sam, i.e. ensnared him in a net. Not an overly glorious way for the greatest sword in the realm to go out.

As for the transporting of Jon to the North... we know that Ned pulled down the Tower of Joy and erected cairns over the graves of the dead. Presuming that took at least a month, I also presumed (no evidence for it, I grant you) that he was either being looked after at Starfall (hence where the Wylla story comes from as well) or was sent on ahead while Ned took care of business. I don't necessarily think Ned and Jon need have arrived together. Since much of this is tied to the mystery of Jon's birth, we really won't know until that at least comes out.

Regarding the original topic of Ashara's "boyfriend"... I think it was probably Brandon. It is all circumstantial but given what we know of his personality, it fits better that he would have "dishonoured" a lady rather than Ned. Presuming she was dishonoured, of course. I know it is all circumstantial but it is the scenario that makes the most sense to me at this time. However, there is no way that Jon was conceived as a result of such a union because Jon is too young to have been conceived then. As for the N+A connection, Ashara is mentioned only about a dozen times and none of them from Ned himself. The closest thing to a "credible" source for it ever having been true is Edric Dayne, but he is repeating a story told to him by his aunt, Allyria - who we know nothing about - and in the same breath then declares Wylla was Jon's mother. So, his version of events is itself odd.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Faera said:

Based on what little we know, I really wouldn't be surprised if it turned out little Howland Reed was actually the one who killed Arthur Dayne. We know that despite their reputation crannogmen are not completely hopeless melee fighters though they are very unconventional. Their use of spears, nets and stealth is not only unusual but little known. Together with the fact that it wasn't single combat but seven-facing-three and Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him but for Howland -- it isn't hard to imagine him doing to Arthur what Meera did to Summer or Sam, i.e. ensnared him in a net. Not an overly glorious way for the greatest sword in the realm to go out.

It's probably the net. Howland is short of stature and we have zero description of Arthur. But we know that another great knight was captured on the Prince's Pass while trying to protect his king. 

I really wonder how much Ned told his children about his fight with Arthur Dayne, because from the sound of it, he hasn't said all that much and Bran doesn't repeat that Ned killed Arthur. And Bran tells Osha when they go down to the crypts that Rickard was beheaded. 

13 minutes ago, Faera said:

The only people who know what really happened that day are Eddard Stark and Howland Reed, meaning they control the narrative absolutely.

This. And we see it time and again. 

Ned says about Brandon that he would know what to do (after Robert names him Hand), but we find out that Brandon really doesn't have a very sound judgement at all and is prone to making rash decisions. Ned controls that until Jaime starts talking about what led to Brandon's death.

24 minutes ago, Faera said:

The closest thing to a "credible" source for it ever having been true is Edric Dayne, but he is repeating a story told to him by his aunt, Allyria - who we know nothing about - and in the same breath then declares Wylla was Jon's mother. So, his version of events is itself odd.

It is and we don't know when he was told this piece of information. You can't really trust important secrets to children. I think he was told about Jon because he needed to know that he existed. But now that he is home, older, a bit hardened from running with the Brotherhood, maybe he'll get to be told the entire truth?

But with regard to Ashara, maybe it's the way I read Barristan's line, but it seems to me like nothing happened between them while the tourney was going on. I'm assuming that the QoLaB title is given at the very end of the tourney after the last tilt. If that's the case, then Barristan seems to imply that it's after the tourney that Ashara turned to Stark. 

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, Faera said:

Based on what little we know, I really wouldn't be surprised if it turned out little Howland Reed was actually the one who killed Arthur Dayne. We know that despite their reputation crannogmen are not completely hopeless melee fighters though they are very unconventional. Their use of spears, nets and stealth is not only unusual but little known. Together with the fact that it wasn't single combat but seven-facing-three and Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him but for Howland -- it isn't hard to imagine him doing to Arthur what Meera did to Summer or Sam, i.e. ensnared him in a net. Not an overly glorious way for the greatest sword in the realm to go out.

 

 

Can't wait to read about it the way Howland tells it. I can already imagine it, Brave Ned is not only holding Arthur Dayne by himself but also killing other King's Guard because his buddies are just storm troopers in a medieval setting and get killed one by one. Ned gets cornered and suddenly trickster crannogmen Howland stops playing dead and stabs Arthur's neck from behind! I also imagine Arthur as this guy wielding two bastard swords when no one else in the story does, so he must be very powerful too. Wonder where I get these ideas, I must have a very creative mind I think, yes 

 

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As for the transporting of Jon to the North... we know that Ned pulled down the Tower of Joy and erected cairns over the graves of the dead. Presuming that took at least a month, I also presumed (no evidence for it, I grant you) that he was either being looked after at Starfall (hence where the Wylla story comes from as well) or was sent on ahead while Ned took care of business. I don't necessarily think Ned and Jon need have arrived together. Since much of this is tied to the mystery of Jon's birth, we really won't know until that at least comes out.

Wasn't ToJ an abandoned ruin though, at least partially? So it's just digging a few graves and putting the already available stones on them and you have yourself a cairn.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's probably the net. Howland is short of stature and we have zero description of Arthur. But we know that another great knight was captured on the Prince's Pass while trying to protect his king. 

 

 

You people have such poor imaginations. Howland would surely stab Arthur from the back with his blade coming out of Arthur's mouth. It is only fitting that people using two blades die that way, can't you imagine!

 

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I really wonder how much Ned told his children about his fight with Arthur Dayne, because from the sound of it, he hasn't said all that much and Bran doesn't repeat that Ned killed Arthur. And Bran tells Osha when they go down to the crypts that Rickard was beheaded. 

He doesn't talk about the past much.

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Ned says about Brandon that he would know what to do (after Robert names him Hand), but we find out that Brandon really doesn't have a very sound judgement at all and is prone to making rash decisions. Ned controls that until Jaime starts talking about what led to Brandon's death.

It is and we don't know when he was told this piece of information. You can't really trust important secrets to children. I think he was told about Jon because he needed to know that he existed. But now that he is home, older, a bit hardened from running with the Brotherhood, maybe he'll get to be told the entire truth?

But with regard to Ashara, maybe it's the way I read Barristan's line, but it seems to me like nothing happened between them while the tourney was going on. I'm assuming that the QoLaB title is given at the very end of the tourney after the last tilt. If that's the case, then Barristan seems to imply that it's after the tourney that Ashara turned to Stark. 

 

There could be honor in a lie

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"We had to throw rocks," she said miserably. "I told her to run, to go be free, that I didn't want her anymore. There were other wolves for her to play with, we heard them howling, and Jory said the woods were full of game, so she'd have deer to hunt. Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The queen would have killed her."

"It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was … not without honor." He'd put Needle aside when he went to Arya to embrace her. Now he took the blade up again and walked to the window, where he stood for a moment, looking out across the courtyard. When he turned back, his eyes were thoughtful. He seated himself on the window seat, Needle across his lap. "Arya, sit down. I need to try and explain some things to you."

 

Nice catch on QoLaB. It is indeed given after the tourney ends as it is the victor who gives it. End of tourney doesn't necessarily mean the end of festivities though, people have come from a very long way and tourney itself lasts only some days. so they will perhaps stay for a while longer. Dishonoring may have taken place during this time or it may have been even after everyone went their way.

 

[Megorova]

On 24.11.2017 at 2:29 AM, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Barristan believes she was dishonored. She probably just slept with one of the Stark brothers and Barristan sees that as a dishonor.

It's unlikely that Ashara advertised the fact that she had sex with someone. So if it did became known, then most likely it happened because she became pregnant afterwards. And when people at court realised this, her family, or maybe her princess (Elia whose lady-in-waiting Ashara was) has sent her back home, dismissed her from court. Otherwise at time when rebellion began, she was supposed to be at Dragonstone alongside Elia. Tournament was in 281, so even if Ashara did had a fling with Ned, their baby was born in 281 or 282, not like Jon in 283. Could be that she miscarried, or the baby was born dead, thus there wasn't a living baby from that encounter.

On 24.11.2017 at 5:07 AM, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

It would only be a few months difference, not a year.  

It was said in the books that Lyanna was kidnapped a year (or nearly a year) after Tournament. By that time, if Ashara became pregnant at Harrenhall, she would have already given birth. Ned married with Cat at least one month after Lyanna's kidnapping. So the age difference between Robb and Ashara's baby would be 10+ months.

On 24.11.2017 at 5:34 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

There is nothing to rule out Brandon-Ashara as the parents.  I can see why Ned would keep that information hidden because it makes his older brother look like the butthole that he was.   It's best to avoid the subject altogether when you have a related secret.  Ned-Ashara is another possible set of parents for Jon because there is nothing to show that Ned's stay at Starfall was not extended. 

Robb Stark was engaged with Frey girl. He had sex with Westerling girl. And married with her the morning after. Even though she wasn't pregnant (at least not yet).

Now lets look what was S-Brothers situations: Brandon was engaged with Cat, Ned was totally free.

If Brandon had sex with Ashara, and furthermore she became pregnant, then why didn't he broke his engagement with Cat, and married with Ashara, like Robb did? Or was Brandon a less decent person than his nephew? Also in this case they could have offered to Tullys, to marry Cat with next Stark - Ned. Which is exactly what happened when Brandon became "unavailable".

If Ned and Ashara fell in love, and had sex, why they didn't married? Why Ned didn't went to her family with marriage proposal? Ashara wasn't engaged with anyone.

Also, seems that people are forgetting this part - Brandon was in love with Cat. They weren't only engaged, they were also in love. So why would he have sex with Ashara, especially if he was in love and engaged with another girl, and his brother liked Ashara?

[Faera]

28 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's probably the net. Howland is short of stature and we have zero description of Arthur. But we know that another great knight was captured on the Prince's Pass while trying to protect his king. 

Oh, yeah!

32 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I really wonder how much Ned told his children about his fight with Arthur Dayne, because from the sound of it, he hasn't said all that much and Bran doesn't repeat that Ned killed Arthur. And Bran tells Osha when they go down to the crypts that Rickard was beheaded. 

I wonder this too. A part of me wonders if Ned's revelation of Howland saving his life was a slip or moment of weakness that only Bran saw that one time. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if he'd told someone else but no one else ever thinks about him in this way. Aside from Bran, only Robb directly mentions Howland and the trust his father put him -- no mention of his lifesaving (as far as I recall, anyway, I might be wrong). Either way, it is clear that Ned has told a few white lies to spare people from a truth they wouldn't like. Again, he's controlling the narrative.

A lot of secrets died with him.

39 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned says about Brandon that he would know what to do (after Robert names him Hand), but we find out that Brandon really doesn't have a very sound judgement at all and is prone to making rash decisions. Ned controls that until Jaime starts talking about what led to Brandon's death.

1 hour ago, Faera said:

That is another good example.

41 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

If that's the case, then Barristan seems to imply that it's after the tourney that Ashara turned to Stark. 

I suppose though for me the fact he simply calls him "Stark" rather than "Lord Eddard" immediately raised an eyebrow with me. Not least because he seemed perfectly amicable with Eddard when they were interacting in King's Landing despite him obviously feeling a lot of regret about this business with Ashara. Selmy is by no means a reliable narrator but he is valuable in as far as he is the only version of the tourney from a first-hand source. True, there is Meera's story, which she presumably was told by Howland who was also there -- but we don't know how much he told her about what really happened, and likewise, we don't know if she is telling it exactly as he told her for certain. Again, third-hand accounts raise eyebrows with me. Unless Old Nan says it, then it's gospel. 

41 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wonder where I get these ideas, I must have a very creative mind I think, yes 

 

Nah. Only a pair of dummies would come up with something like tha--wait. 

42 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wasn't ToJ an abandoned ruin though, at least partially? So it's just digging a few graves and putting the already available stones on them and you have yourself a cairn.

Even so, the process of actually taking it down probably would have taken a little while. It's not like they have bulldozers. Besides, the passage back to the North itself would have taken time to plan even after all that was done, especially if he was transporting Jon.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

29 minutes ago, Faera said:

Either way, it is clear that Ned has told a few white lies to spare people from a truth they wouldn't like. Again, he's controlling the narrative.

A lot of secrets died with him.

Ned also told Bran (and I'm assuming the other children) that Rickard was beheaded.

30 minutes ago, Faera said:

I suppose though for me the fact he simply calls him "Stark" rather than "Lord Eddard" immediately raised an eyebrow with me.

Oh, I agree. I called him "Stark" because that's how Barry refers to Brandon (probably).

[Megorova]

On 24.11.2017 at 4:02 PM, Consigliere said:

Then we also have Barristan's thoughts who we know had a serious crush on Ashara and according to him, young girls choose fire  over mud. Now between Brandon and Ned, from what we know of their personalities, who who you consider to be "fire" and "mud" between the two?

Don't remember Barristan saying anything like that, also it could actually mean different things in different context.

I think there was only one Lord, to whom in books could be made referrings as to "mud". And that's Howland Reed, because he's from swamps.

I think that Ashara fell in love, or at least had sex, that night after Tournament, with Howland Reed. He was watching her entire evening, so it's possible that after celebrations ended, the two of them went together to her tent, and had sex. She became pregnant, but she decided against marring with Howland, and going with him to Graywater Watch (his castle). Because she wanted to stay with Elia and Rhaegar. Could be that she knew about the prophecy, and wanted to support them, and thus decided to keep serving to them. Though first she went home, to give there birth to her baby, and return to court later. 

Thus she chose fire - Rhaegar/Elia and life at Targaryen court, over mud - Howland, and life with him and their baby.

On 24.11.2017 at 4:05 PM, Knight Of Winter said:

She wants fire (Brandon), and Dorne sent her mud (Ned).

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls (Ashara) would choose fire (Brandon) every time.

Barristan is speaking from a personal experience here, methinks.

Rhaegar instead of Brandon, and Howland instead of Ned. (That's in addition to upper part of this post.)

On 24.11.2017 at 4:24 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Not only he tells her not to ask about Jon but he also forbids anyone talking about Ashara. If he didn't care at all about her he may have just forbid Cat asking about Jon but let the servants be, which would be beneficial as a misdirection about Jon's parentage.

I think that Ashara is actually still alive.

After Harrenhall she became pregnant and went home to Starfall. There she gave birth to daughter of Howland Reed. Several months after that, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Arthur Dayne and two other Kingsguards arrived to Tower of Joy. Rhaegar or Arthur summoned Ashara to come to TofJ. She came there together with her daughter Meera, and her daughter's wet nurse Wylla.

Skip 9 months forward: Rhaegar, Lyanna and 3 Kingsguards are dead. Ashara, Meera, Wylla, Jon, Ned and Howland Reed are at TofJ.

Howland takes his daughter and Ashara home with him. "Ashara" died and becomes Jyana. Ned takes Jon and Wylla, and goes with them to Winterfell.

Several years later, Jyana gives birth to two boys. One of them has too unusual for those lands features, to pass as cranogmen. Thus Howland and Jyana summon Wylla from Winterfell, and give this baby to her. She goes with him to Starfall, explains to Daynes who the baby is, and from then on he is Edric Dayne. While his brother, that his parents kept, is Jojen Reed.

Daynes family call him Ned, because this name was given to him by Howland, in honor of his best friend Eddard Ned Stark. Or Eddard was Edric's godfather. Could be that he came with Wylla to Greywater Watch, and maybe even escorted her and the boy all the way to Dorne. Or Wylla went to Starfall together with Howland and Ashara/Jyana. Though after reuniting with her sister, and giving the baby to her, Reeds went back to The Neck.

That's why Edric Dayne told Arya, that he and Jon Snow are milk brother. That is truth. Though not in a the sense in which he tells Arya. He himself doesn't know the whole truth. Wylla was wet nurse for both of them, and they are a milk brothers, though Wylla isn't Jon's mother.

So actually the Dawn sword is either in crypts of Winterfell, or in posession of Jyana or Howland Reed. Unless Ned did brought it to Starfall, only not after Tower of Joy, but a few years later, together with Ashara, and her two children. Or maybe they brought there all three children (Meera, Jojen and Edric) for a family reunion with Daynes.

On 24.11.2017 at 4:36 PM, Consigliere said:

Err, based on what we know about the characters of Ned and Brandon, it is far more likely for Brandon to be the one who "dishonored" Ashara. Based on hearsay, Ned was in love with Ashara but banged Wylla? Does this in any way resemble the Ned Stark that Martin has portrayed through 15 POV chapters?

Based on what we know about Ned, and how GRRM portrayed him in the books, the only person with whom Ned ever had sex, was his wife Cat.

On 24.11.2017 at 4:47 PM, Ygrain said:

And it is easy to see where the rumours came from: Lots of people saw Ned dancing with Ashara. Ashara had a baby, Ned Stark has a bastard son. Ashara committed suicide after being visited by Ned Stark. 1+1=2, case closed. 

Characters in the books though so, because of those rumours. Though it doesn't mean that the rumours were truthful.

For example who told to people that Ned came to Starfall, after events at Tower of Joy?

Ned himself? He could have lied to everyone about it. Because he had to somehow explain from where did he took the baby.

Daynes? So this is what happened there, according to those rumours - Ned killed Arthur, came to Starfall with his sword, to bring it to his family. Ashara commited suicide by jumping into the sea from the top of a tower. Maybe because of her brother's death. Maybe because of her stillborn child, or miscarriage. Though in this case, why did she waited so long to kill herself? Could be that news about her brother's death, were the last nail in her coffin, last drop of her patience. Maybe. According to other rumours she commited suicide because Ned took away her baby. And thus Jon is that baby.

Though all this rumours are false. Because if any of this really happened, then the remaining Daynes wouldn't have let Ned go. Just imagine this picture - Ned Stark came to Starfall, told them that he killed Arthur, then he takes Ashara's baby, Ashara kills herself, and her people just let Ned go. Unimaginable! They would have killed him for harming them so much.

So the only logical explanation of those rumours, is that their source is Ned himself.

He had to explain the baby, and he had to explain Ashara's dissapearance. According to theory that I wrote here a few posts above, Ashara went with Howland Reed and changed her name to Jyana. They married, and she did had a baby - daughter Meera, that she gave birth to, after events at Harrenhall, and the baby's father was Howland.

On 24.11.2017 at 5:24 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I think Ashara is just part of a pretty large cover-up. 

I have to wonder, though. Did Barristan ever hear of the rumors that she was Jon Snow's mother? Cersei has clearly heard them since she throws them in Ned's face. And both she and Barry live in King's Landing, so I would think that if he was invested in Ashara and what happened to her, that this is something he may have known of.

Is he just dismissing the story because it's easier to believe that the stillborn daughter was Brandon's because of the kind of personality Brandon had vs Ned's personality, even though everyone in the 7Ks knows that Ned fathered a bastard? 

That strikes me as odd.

That because he may know who was it, the person that dishonored Ashara - Howland Reed.

On 24.11.2017 at 5:40 PM, Consigliere said:

I disagree about Cersei. Yes, she mentioned Ashara but she also mentions "some Dornish peasant" so I don't think we can take here views as anything more than hearsay.

Dornish peasant is Wylla. Now she lives at Starfall. Edric Dayne was telling about her to Arya.