Ashara's "Boyfriend"

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

but people still hold out 

I still hold out hope the show will improve

[Dorian Martell's son]

55 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I still hold out hope the show will improve

hopefully, after dream is released and whatever book comes after in 2026, maybe someone will do a true to the book animated show 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

hopefully, after dream is released and whatever book comes after in 2026, maybe someone will do a true to the book animated show 

Id be down for that! Who knows, maybe Amazon will pick it up in 15 years like LOTR haha

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is known 

You're on wrong side of The Forum. It is known in the world of GOT. While in the world of ASOIAF, Jon is dead. For now at least. And who his parents are, we have the same information as before - we know nothing.

[Stormking902]

On 24/11/2017 at 4:50 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I never said they were BFFs, but they had a relationship that went beyond just mutual respect. Barristan calls Ned by his first name Lord Eddard which implies a familiarity, instead it would just be Lord Stark or "Stark"  as he refers to Brandon in his thoughts. Barristan takes Ned's side in arguments while he's Hand of the King helping Ned. Barristan, while he's a wanted man in King's Landing no less, goes to the sept and prays for Eddard Stark's soul. To me that sounds like more then just mutual respect. Do you honestly think that if Barristan thought Eddard played any part in Ashara's dishonor, or suicide Barrristan would treat him with anything more then cool courtesy? Do you see him praying for the soul of a man who was responsible for stealing a night with his beloved dream women? I sure don't. I think it was Illyrio who said "he is known as Barristan the bold not the cunning." If Barristan had a problem with Ned it would have been transparent like his dislike for Jaime Lannister.

So I guess I agree to disagree.

Wasnt Selmy on decent terms with Jamie? Or was this just the show? 

[Roswell]

Nice euphemism to use boyfriend. 

Arthur being a Kingsguard was not allowed to defend his sister's honor because he put his family behind him when he took the job.  His sword and his dedication belonged to Aerys.  Whoever dishonored Ashara (I agree it was Brandon Stark) can be sure there will be no revenge coming from Arthur.

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Id be down for that! Who knows, maybe Amazon will pick it up in 15 years like LOTR haha

That would be super sweet. I have always thought the books could give a 20 episode season, and with animation it would be far easier to put all the minor characters in without blowing the casting budget 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

You're on wrong side of The Forum. It is known in the world of GOT. 

First of all, we are not allowed to even mention that which must not be mentioned here. so don't. I won't be a dick and report this, but the mods can be cruel and spiteful, even for small references. 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

 While in the world of ASOIAF, Jon is dead. For now at least. 

 Again, not at all. We last see him getting stabbed. He could be alive and bleeding, he could be dead, we don't know.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

 And who his parents are, we have the same information as before - we know nothing.

Yes, and all that information points to R+L=J.  There are 164 threads on the subject here. Willa, Ashara and the fisherman's daughter are decoys for the reader until the reveal and  literally everything else is desperate fan speculation by people who cannot believe that a the reader would give us a plot twist that could be figured out. It is known 

[Megorova]

Previously I had three theories based on Meera's/Jojen's story, events at Harrenhal, Starfall and Tower of Joy:

1. During Tournament at Harrenhal Ashara hooked up with Howland Reed.

2. Lyanna Stark was Knight of the Laughing Tree. Rhaegar knew about it, and helped her to cover her tracks, to escape from Aerys' search.

3. Ashara and her baby-daughter Meera were at Tower of Joy, together with Meera's wet nurse Wylla, when Lyanna gave birth to Jon, and died. After death of Arthur Dayne, Ashara changed her name to Jyana, and went with her baby to castle of Howland Reed, as his wife. Ned Stark took Jon and Wylla, and brought them to Winterfell.

I thought that Howland and Ashara spent a night together, on first day of Tournament. But after reading theory of @PrettyPig on thread Daenerys Dayne, and linking my theories with what Barristan said about those events,

Spoiler

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

"She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

and that King Aerys has sent Rhaegar and Kingsguards to find out identity of mystery knight, and that Ashara was not only Elia's lady-in-waiting, but also sister of Rhaegar's closest friend Arthur Dayne, I have a new theory.

During Tournament happened this:

1. either Ashara and Howland knew about Lyanna's idea to fight in Tournament, and they helped her to prepare for it. And while the two of them were busy with that, they fell in love. Could be that she was dishonored just because people saw her coming out of Lyanna's tent, and after her from there came out Howland Reed, or they saw her coming out of Ned's tent. So actually they didn't had sex, but people thought otherwise, and spread rumours about it. So that's the meaning of those words about her dishonorment.

2. or Ashara (and Howland) wasn't part of mystery from its beginning. Though Rhaegar somehow realised who the mystery knight was. Could be that he accidentally saw something. So when Aerys ordered his Kingsguards to unmask the mystery knight, Rhaegar has sent Ashara to warn Lyanna about what is going to happen. Rhaegar needed another woman to go and warn Lyanna, thus he asked Ashara to do this, because not only she was his wife's lady-in-waiting, she was also sister of his best friend. So he knew that he could trust her with warning Lyanna, and keeping her secret afterwards.

(He needed to send to Lyanna another woman, because it was already late at night, when Rhaegar became aware about his father's plan for the next day, that he ordered his Kingsguards to unmask mystery knight. Rhaegar couldn't go to Lyanna in the middle of the night. Also he couldn't sent to her some other man. Thus he asked Ashara to do this. Or rather he gave an order to Arthur, and thru him to his sister. Because if people will see at night Ashara together with her brother, then they won't think anything about it. But if people will see young woman in company of a man at night, this could dishonor that woman.

Most likely late at night, Arthur came to sleep in Rhaegar's tent, and mentioned about what King ordered to other Kingsguards to do tomorrow. Rhaegar, realising that Lyanna is in danger, immediately has sent Arthur to find his sister, and send her to warn Lyanna. That's when people saw Ashara coming out of Ned's tent, in the middle of the night. Most likely she went there to take Howland's shield from there, to give it to her brother, that he could get rid of it.)

Could be that the Stark to whom Ashara looked was Lyanna Stark. When Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, she "laughed at Rhaegar's action, claiming that Rhaegar had only paid Lyanna her due". If she was that mystery knight, and if she kept participating in tournament, could be that she could have won and be a champion of tournament. Because of Rhaegar's warning, Lyanna has withdrawn from further participation, but she did won in at least three joustlings. So Rhaegar gave her Queen's crown as a consolation prize, or something like that.

Also we know that during tournament Howland went to Lyanna's tent, and later was staying in Ned's tent:

"The crannogman was wounded and Lyanna took him back to her "lair", probably a tent. She cleaned his wounds and bound them with linen, then introduced the guest to her brothers Brandon Stark ("the wild wolf"), Eddard Stark ("the quiet wolf"), and Benjen Stark ("the pup"). That evening, Lyanna persuaded the crannogman to attend the feast marking the start of the tournament. She insisted that he was highborn and had as much right to attend as anyone. The "wolf maid" was not easy to refuse. Benjen found a suitable garb for the man. Within Harrenhal, he ate and drank with the Starks."

"Before going to sleep at the tent of Eddard, as the "quiet wolf" had offered him hospitality, he prayed to the old gods."

Could be that people saw Ashara coming out at night from Eddard's tent. That's how started rumours about her and Ned. But actually she went there to talk with Howland, or with Lyanna. Either they were preparing Lyanna in that tent, or kept there her armor. Rhaegar realised to whom the shield belonged:

"Late on the afternoon of the second day, a mystery knight "short of stature" appeared in the lists. His armor was made up of mismatched armor bits and pieces that appeared ill-fitting on him. His shield was blazoned with the image of "a white weirwood with a laughing red face". The tale earlier mentions that the crannogman had with him "a leathern shield" but does not specify whether this was the same shield.

The mystery knight attracted unwanted attention. Robert Baratheon and Richard Lonmouth were determined to unmask him, while King Aerys was certain that the man was his enemy.^[2] The king was convinced that the tree on the mystery knight's shield was laughing at him. He decided that the mystery knight was Ser Jaime Lannister, who had returned to the tourney, defying Aerys's order to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys in King's Landing. Aerys told his beliefs to every man who would listen, and furiously commanded his own knights to defeat the Knight of the Laughing Tree when the jousts resumed the next morning, to unmask and expose him.^[5]

However, by the next day, it was discovered that the knight had disappeared. The king became angered by this, certain that someone close to him had given warning to "this traitor who will not show his face."^[5] An angry Aerys sent his men, including Prince Rhaegar, to search for the vanished knight, but only his shield could be found, abandoned in a tree." 

"Within Harrenhal, he ate and drank with the Starks. <- (Howland)

During the feast Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, a noted musician, performed a sad and beautiful song that made Lyanna weep; when Benjen teased her for crying, she poured wine over his head." <- could be that this is when he noticed Lyanna, and he also saw Howland, who was close to her, and his shield. So he has sent Ashara to warn them about Aerys' plan for next day, and told them to get rid of that shield, and not to come back to participate in tournament.

Most likely Arthur Dayne knew about all of this. Could be that Rhaegar told Arthur to send Ashara to Stark's tent. Could be that Barristan also knew about all of this, that's why he said about Ashara turning to Stark, but at the same time he never shown any resentment towards Ned.

So I'm discarding my theory number 3, according to which Meera was conceived at Harrenhall, and that's why Ashara and Wylla were at Tower of Joy.

Now I think that Ashara came to Tower of Joy, to bring there Wylla for Lyanna's baby (that was some time prior Lyanna gave birth to Jon). At that point Ashara was still a virgin. She didn't had a fling with anyone, while she was at Harrenhal. Though when Lyanna and Arthur died, and Ned took Jon and Wylla to Winterfell, Ashara had to go together with Howland to his lands. Because Ned had to keep Jon's origin as a secret. He couldn't risk anyone knowing about it, he couldn't just let Ashara go back home to Starfall. So basically she was taken as a hostage by Howland. Could be that when Ned left the two of them at Tower of Joy, he ordered Howland to kill her, but Howland couldn't do it, thus he took her home with him. She changed her name to Jyana, they married, and afterwards Meera was born.

Or after Harrenhal, Ashara did had a fling with Howland. Though it was while both of them were in Dorne. Could be that after Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, she was sent away back home. And Howland came to her. That's when they hooked up. Wylla is originally from Starfall. So could be that when Ashara has sent Wylla to Tower of Joy, Howland realised that kidnapped Lyanna is there. Thus he sent a raven to Ned, informing him about this. Then Ned and Howland went to Tower of Joy. After Lyanna and Arthur died, Ned with Jon and Wylla went to Winterfell, and Howland went to Starfall. He told Ashara about what happened. And because by that time she was already pregnant, she went together with Howland to his lands. This corresponds with Meera being born in late 283.

[maudisdottir]

OK that was a pretty wild ride, but this in particular caused me to massively WTF:

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Could be that when Ned left the two of them at Tower of Joy, he ordered Howland to kill her

Your quotes don't really prove anything, and you're paraphrasing (or copying from the Wiki) to fit your theories.

If Ashara was tent-hopping as much as you claim, we would have heard about it by now. There would have been a vague hint to "shadows moving in the night" around the tent, or something remembered in a dream that points to her hooking up with Howland/Ned/whoever it is you think she was with. Instead, we get told she was dishonoured at Harrenhal, she "looked to" Stark, and she grieved for the man who dishonoured her (implying that he was dead).

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That would be super sweet. I have always thought the books could give a 20 episode season, and with animation it would be far easier to put all the minor characters in without blowing the casting budget 

Agreed!! The books have more than enough plot lines and characters!

[Dorian Martell's son]

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Agreed!! The books have more than enough plot lines and characters!

Not to talk too much about the thing that should not be mentioned but whole plots had to be cut because of casting budgets

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

It was Brandon who bagged Ashara.

 

Ned/Howland is just wish fulfillment, rooting for the nerds.

[Megorova]

15 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

OK that was a pretty wild ride, but this in particular caused me to massively WTF:

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Could be that when Ned left the two of them at Tower of Joy, he ordered Howland to kill her

Your quotes don't really prove anything, and you're paraphrasing (or copying from the Wiki) to fit your theories.

I can use quotes directly from book's text, the point of them doesn't change. Chapter 24, Bran II, A Storm of Swords (text in bold):

Spoiler

“It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork.”

 

“Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran. The little crannogman was walking across the field, enjoying the warm spring day and harming none, when he was set upon by three squires. They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three. This was their world, as they saw it, and he had no right to be there. They snatched away his spear and knocked him to the ground, cursing him for a frogeater.”

“Were they Walders?” It sounded like something Little Walder Frey might have done.

“None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.”

“A wolf on four legs, or two?”

“Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

“That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king’s feast, and went up to the great castle.

“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf… but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

“Amidst all this merriment, the little crannogman spied the three squires who’d attacked him. One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well.”

“The Freys,” said Bran. “The Freys of the Crossing.”

“Then, as now,” she agreed. “The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck…”

“You never heard this tale from your father?” asked Jojen.

“It was Old Nan who told the stories. Meera, go on, you can’t stop there. “

Hodor must have felt the same. “Hodor,” he said, and then, “Hodor hodor hodor hodor.”

“Well,” said Meera, “if you would hear the rest…”

“Yes. Tell it.”

“Five days of jousting were planned,” she said. “There was a great seven-sided mêlée as well, and archery and axe-throwing, a horse race and tourney of singers…”

“Never mind about all that.” Bran squirmed impatiently in his basket on Hodor’s back. “Tell about the jousting.”

“As my prince commands. The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists.”

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king’s mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight’s armor, the first time when he was only ten. “It was the little crannogman, I bet.”

“No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.”

“Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces,” said Bran. “Was he green?” In Old Nan’s stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn’t see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. “I bet the old gods sent him.”

“Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged.”

“The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers.” Bran had heard enough stories to know that. “He was the little crannogman, I told you.”

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, ‘Teach your squire honor, that shall be ransom enough.’ Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman’s prayer was answered… by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?”

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

“No,” said Meera. “That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end.”

“Oh.” Bran thought about the tale awhile. “That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”

“She was,” said Meera, “but that’s a sadder story.”

And part about Aerys' behaviour during Tournament, including his suspicions that someone close to him, has warned the mystery knight, is from The World of Ice and Fire, The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring.

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

If Ashara was tent-hopping as much as you claim, we would have heard about it by now.

I'm not saying that she was tent-hopping. I'm saying that maybe someone saw her, in the middle of the night, coming out of Ned's tent, which caused rumours about their affair. And because of this rumours she was dishonored. Barristan said that she "looked to Stark" because, could be that the same as others, he thought that there was something between Ashara and Ned. Or maybe this words "looked to Stark" has totally different meaning than we think. Could be that Rhaegar told Ashara that Lyanna is a mystery knight, and that they should get rid of that shield, thus Ashara went to Ned's tent, where Howland was staying during tournament. Could be that she went to talk with Ned, and people saw them together that night.  

Back to beginning of post - Lyanna and Arthur are dead, Ashara and Wylla are the only people aside from Ned, who knew who the baby's father was. Maybe even Wylla didn't knew, she was just a maid, and thus no one told her anything. She came there already after Rhaegar's departure, and she was kept there separately from Lyanna, until the baby will be born. Could be that she never even saw Lyanna, and thus didn't knew even who was Jon's mother, same as she didn't knew identity of his father. Thus the only people present at Tower of Joy, that knew identity of Jon's parents were Ned, Howland, and Ashara (and 3 dead Kingsguards, including Arthur).

So would/could Ned risk letting Ashara go (after they killed her brother), and maybe telling everything to others? Of course he coudn't. So what other choise did he had? He couldn't let her go, and he also couldn't take her with him. Because where would he take her? to Winterfell? People there would know who she is. So the only other choises were either to kill her, or for Howland to take her with him, and keep her forever in those swamps at The Neck.

[Anck Su Namun]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:02 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Who was the man who dishonored Ashara Dayne?  I believe the identity of this man will be important to the plot going forward.  There are many possible men who could have done this but the unusual suspects will almost certainly be sons of the Great Houses or, dare I say it, from the royal household itself.  We need to decide between two forks in the road before we can proceed with the discussion.  We have to decide what Barristan meant by - dishonor.  This is a pretty vague term with a wide breadth of meaning coming from an honorable man like Ser Barristan Selmy.  It can mean something as innocuous as love that was not reciprocated by the man.  However, I believe it was more than that.  It was something upsetting enough to make Ashara turn to a stranger for emotional support.  This second fork in the road is the one that I will pursue.  The dishonor was of a sexual nature that resulted in Ashara getting pregnant. 

The Unusual Suspects

1 - King Aerys Targaryen. 

Without doubt, he is the only person in the whole kingdom who is above the law.  Aerys was the law.  By definition, Aerys cannot do anything unlawful.  The kingdom belonged to the Targaryens and Aerys was the king at the time.  Every member of every noble house in the kingdom was his subject.  Aerys can do what he will with Ashara and get away with it. 

I do not think it was Aerys.  Don't you think the Starks and the Baratheons will still, up to the present, still blame Aerys?  Sure they would have.  Robert took the throne and he can (and did) slander every member of House Targaryen.  Every sin, minor or major, committed by the Targaryens were used by the Baratheon-Stark publicity machine.  The fact that they did not pin this on Aerys tells me that the king is not guilty.

2 - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rhaegar was not above the law.  He was still a subject of the king.  However, for the same reasons that I struck Aerys from the list of suspects, I will do the same for Rhaegar.  Ned would think negatively of Rhaegar, even curse him, if the prince had dishonored Ashara. 

3 - Oberyn Martell.

The Martells are the lords of the Daynes.  So if Brandon can get away with dishonoring Barbrey Dustin, it is logical to assume that Oberyn can get away with dishonoring Ashara.  We need to understand that the actual dishonoring need not have taken place at Harrenhal.  The copulation took place before and Harrenhal was the place where it became public.  The date of the scandal is not when it happened but when it became public.  When the truth came out.  Oberyn need not be present at Harrenhal for the scandal to become public. 

4 - Brandon Stark.

The main suspect.  Brandon has a pattern of deflowering girls and leaving them to deal with the aftermath.  A small aftermath with Barbrey.  A bun baking in the oven with Ashara.  The actual act of the dishonor took place at Harrenhal.  Brandon goes to look for Ashara to speak on his brother's behalf.  He took it upon himself to enjoy Ashara and kicks her out of bed after his satisfaction.  Oh Ned!  Poor Ned.  Ned the cleaner.  Ned, the janitor of House Stark.  He takes it upon himself to comfort the distraught Ashara.  Have we not seen Ned clean up his family's mess repeatedly!  Who else can clean up and hide the scandal and make it go away, except a Stark, with the help of the Baratheon administration.  The Starks have a history of sweeping embarrassing family histories under the rug.  The Night's KIng was a Stark and yet that is not a well-known fact because it was swept under the rug centuries ago.

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow.  Ned cleans up after his brother and sister again.  He takes Lyanna's baby from the Tower of Joy and brings it to Starfall.  A baby trade was done.  Ned takes his brother's son north with him.  The one with the elongated appearance who could easily pass for his bastard.  The other one, from Lyanna, could not and was sent overseas with a disguised Ashara.  Similar to what Jon did later with the Rayder baby and the Craster baby.  A baby swap to protect one of the children from harm.  Both boys are bastards but Robert was out to kill all of the Targaryens so Ned was not about to take that chance after he saw what happened to Princess Rhaenys and the real Prince Aegon. 

 

 

B + A = J is much likelier than R + L = J.  N + A = J is even better still.  Follow the link below to the Order of the Greenhand's Y/T channel who provides great analysis to support N + A = J.

Oberyn has no connection to Ashara and it will not serve the story for him to be the guilty man.  I would also cross off the Targaryens.  That leaves Brandon and that's just the kind of impulsive behavior expected of that neanderthal.

 

[The Twinslayer]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:33 PM, Adam Yozza said:

There's also the small problem of the timeline's not matching up. We are never definitively told who is older out of Robb and Jon, but as young toddlers after the rebellion, everyone knew they were about the same age. If Jon had been conceived at Harrenhal, he would have been at least a full year older than Robb on kids that young the months really do make a difference in a child's appearance.

If Jon was that much older than Robb, everyone would know.

There was an amusing post a few years ago where someone collected all of the references to things happening "at Harrenhal."  Arya met Roose Bolton "at Harrenhal."  Jaime jumped into a bear pit "at Harrenhal."  That kind of thing.  The point was that Barristan says that Ashara was dishonored "at Harrenhal" but he does not say it happened during Lord Whent's tourney, or even that it happened during the year of the False Spring. 

It also pointed out that Ashara Dayne might have stayed at Harrenhal when winter returned after the tourney and that she may have spent much or all of the Robert's Rebellion there. 

And that Harrenhal is not far from Riverrun and Stony Sept, such that Ned Stark could have gone there before or after his wedding to Catelyn Stark.  

The point is that it does not matter whether Jon is older or younger than Robb:  either way, he could have been conceived by Ned and Ashara "at Harrenhal" at whatever time GRRM decides Jon was conceived.  

[PrettyPig]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I thought that Howland and Ashara spent a night together, on first day of Tournament. But after reading theory of @PrettyPig on thread Daenerys Dayne, and linking my theories with what Barristan said about those events,

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"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

"She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

and that King Aerys has sent Rhaegar and Kingsguards to find out identity of mystery knight, and that Ashara was not only Elia's lady-in-waiting, but also sister of Rhaegar's closest friend Arthur Dayne, I have a new theory.

Hmm.   Well, I'm glad that my tinfoil was inspiring for you, although I have to say that ...wasn't really where I was going with my original thought...

There was a theory floating around a while back put out by some YouTuber proposing that Ashara Dayne was indeed sneaking around with several men at the TOHH, but it was in relation to the dancing - she was acting as a spy / messenger / go-between for an underground conspiracy that also involved Brandon and Ned (along with all the others she danced with, as Howland noted).   I'm pretty okay with that idea, but the convoluted tent-whispering and whatnot seems a bit much.

[maudisdottir]

5 hours ago, Ye Shall Be As Gods said:

Order of the Greenhand's Y/T channel who provides great analysis to support N + A = J.

Yeah, nah.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

12 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Wasnt Selmy on decent terms with Jamie? Or was this just the show? 

I'm not sure about the show, I don't remember them interacting with each other much. However in the books it seems Barristan can barely tolerate Jaime being in the Kingsguard and has little to no respect or love for him.

Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white.- Barristan himself from Sansa V- AGOT 

Selmy never approved of Jaime's presence in his precious Kingsguard. Before the rebellion, the old knight thought him too young and untried; afterward, he had been known to say that the Kingslayer should exchange that white cloak for a black one.-Tyrion XI from ADWD

 

[Faera]

15 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Yeah, nah.

Every time that video gets suggested, a direwolf pup dies. 

21 hours ago, Ye Shall Be As Gods said:

B + A = J is much likelier than R + L = J.  N + A = J is even better still.  Follow the link below to the Order of the Greenhand's Y/T channel who provides great analysis to support N + A = J.

I have seen both their original proposal, the updated version and their spin-off theories as well (Val being Jon's twin sister, Mance is Arthur, etc). Regarding N+A=J, I found the argument very weak, disappointingly so. The only thing it demonstrated to me was how much needless running around is needed to make it work despite it being the first, point-blank suggestion for who Jon's mother was. Plus, I find the speculation that Ned married Ashara wishful thinking. 

Say what you like about R+L=J, at least it is all but certain they had sex without having to condense, stretch or reason out in the timeline how they could have possibly met to have sex so as to conceive Jon.

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

So the only other choises were either to kill her, or for Howland to take her with him, and keep her forever in those swamps at The Neck.

Again, this feels like a complete twist in Ned's character if this is true. It is the same reason why I think the notion TOotGH has that Ned married Ashara is nonsense because it doesn't fit Ned's character. But to answer your question -- the Daynes appear to have been Targaryen loyalists. If Howland Reed could be trusted to keep the secret about Jon, then so could Ashara Dayne.

22 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

It was Brandon who bagged Ashara.

Ned/Howland is just wish fulfillment, rooting for the nerds.

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I think this sums it up really well. Goes straight back to Barristan's analogy of fire and mud.

As for what B+A might equal... if she did get pregnant and gave birth to a living child, if it is anyone, my money'd be on the "sister" Allyria. The passing off an unmarried daughter's child as younger siblings has been done in history as a way for a family to save face. That would match up with Barristan's belief that Ashara had a daughter. Had there been any suggestion that Jon was her son, he surely would have thought about it -- it seems to have been a well-known rumour for Cersei and Catelyn to both know of it. That he doesn't was one of the more solid indications to me that the Jon-Ashara connection was a dead-end.

Of course, Allyria could very well just be Ashara's sister, and her baby really was stillborn, died in infancy or she never had one in the first place.

On 28/11/2017 at 7:26 PM, Megorova said:

Could be that when Ned left the two of them at Tower of Joy, he ordered Howland to kill her, but Howland couldn't do it, thus he took her home with him. She changed her name to Jyana, they married, and afterwards Meera was born.

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Or... Jyana could have been Howland’s childhood sweetheart who was crannog-born and bred. Maybe after his “gap year” with the Order of the Green Men, going to the party to end all parties at Harrenhal and making friends with the Wolf Pack, Howland finally sated his wanderlust and went home to sweep her off her feet and make her his Lady. At least he'd actually have a chance of sweeping a crannog-girl off her feet. Y'know, because he's smol. 

Poor Jyana, though. I do feel the speculation that she might be someone else comes chiefly from the fact that GRRM chose not to give her a house name. Had he said she was “Jyana Fenn”, “Jyana Blackmyre” or even “Jyana Snow”, I doubt any of this speculation as to who she might be would exist. Tragically, though, we just her name and who her immediate family are.  The most exciting scenario I can reasonably surmise from Jyana lacking a family name is that she isn’t from a noble house. That'd be a nice little tidbit if a POV character ever gets to the Neck and we get to see her or Howland.