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Ashara's "Boyfriend"

161 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

In Barbrey's own words:

Brandon had a thing for deflowering virgins.

Eww. "Bloody sword" makes me worried that I had hurt the girl.

Maybe it was a good thing that Brandon the Bloody Sword ended up fragged by Aerys.

13 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Harrenhal seems to be the only time Ashara and Brandon were ever in the same vicinity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Ashara not return to K.L/Dragonstone with Elia after the tourney? And Brandon to Winterfell with a visit to Riverrun at some point for the Littlefinger duel (or did that happen before?)

We do not know much of Brandon's and Ashara's movements between the Tournament and Robert's Rebellion. GRRM said somewhere that Ashara was not nailed to floor at Dragonstone so she could had been darting to the Riverlands and/or Reach for flings with the Brother Stark of her choice.

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13 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

GRRM said somewhere that Ashara was not nailed to floor at Dragonstone so she could had been darting to the Riverlands and/or Reach for flings with the Brother Stark of her choice.

Who knows, maybe Ashara was in King's Landing while Brandon was locked up waiting for Rickard Stark to come to King's Landing. Dungeon master Varys might have even arranged a conjugal visit for Ashara. Perhaps to curry favor with the Daynes or perhaps for another more mysterious or even devious reason. Either way it would be within Varys power.

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1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Eww. "Bloody sword" makes me worried that I had hurt the girl.

You do know that many girls bleed when they lose their virginity, right? Brandon liked to see a maiden's blood on his "sword".

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

GRRM said somewhere that Ashara was not nailed to floor at Dragonstone

It was actually Starfall.

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yeah, my mistake. I was thinking of the Aemon and Aegon brother combo that came after. I realized that right after I posted it. Must be because I just reread the Sworn Sword. I corrected it in the edit after. It was Egg's sister Rhae Targaryen that put the love potion in his drink so he would marry her instead of her sister Daella. But like I said it's one more Targaryen triangle of sorts even though they were children.

Rhae vs Daella for Aegon V. 

I'm sure if Rhae had known Egg would be King someday she would have kept spiking his drinks with love potions.

 

True true and good catch!! 

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Im just morbidly curious about the supposed obsession Brandon Stark has with deflowering girls.

Has any one here ever slept with a virgin? Did you get all worked up about it cause of the blood and decide you must deflower more too? Is this an actual mentality of people? or obsession? How does this work? Do you just keep finding 13 year old girls to deflower well past your 20's? Wouldn't a girl on her period be sufficient to slate this blood lust? lol idk, i really just dont get it. And all because he was Barbary's first? Lol i just, i dont know, i find this disturbing and fascinating lol I've heard of dudes liking to get their red wings, but this kind of blood lust i've never heard of haha least of all to the point where it drives some ones actions other than some creep or pedophile. 

Brandon should of course have deflowered Caitlynn too given she was young and attractive and a virgin and already spoken of for him. Probably should have got at Howlands woman too, since his first kid was born around 283 and likely met her before the war.... so Brandon planted his flag there too. Come to think of it, we should have a few Snows in the North thanks to lusty Brandon deflowering girls. He died at 20 so that gives him a good couple years at least to lay some serious pipe work in the North. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im just morbidly curious about the supposed obsession Brandon Stark has with deflowering girls.

Has any one here ever slept with a virgin? Did you get all worked up about it cause of the blood and decide you must deflower more too? Is this an actual mentality of people? or obsession? How does this work? Do you just keep finding 13 year old girls to deflower well past your 20's? Wouldn't a girl on her period be sufficient to slate this blood lust? lol idk, i really just dont get it. And all because he was Barbary's first? Lol i just, i dont know, i find this disturbing and fascinating lol I've heard of dudes liking to get their red wings, but this kind of blood lust i've never heard of haha least of all to the point where it drives some ones actions other than some creep or pedophile. 

Brandon should of course have deflowered Caitlynn too given she was young and attractive and a virgin and already spoken of for him. Probably should have got at Howlands woman too, since his first kid was born around 283 and likely met her before the war.... so Brandon planted his flag there too. Come to think of it, we should have a few Snows in the North thanks to lusty Brandon deflowering girls. He died at 20 so that gives him a good couple years at least to lay some serious pipe work in the North. 

 

 

That gave me a laugh. I don't know about Brandon, but if people are sick enough to rape, it wouldn't surprise me if what you're describing is possible as well.

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54 minutes ago, Nihilsciens said:

Is this an actual mentality of people? or obsession?

Umm... yes? I don't know how to break it to you, but lots of men have a thing for virgins. Have you really never heard of this?

Or is this just another case of "I would never do that, so I can't believe any other man would either" which is what a lot of guys also say about the likelihood of Brandon cutting Ned's grass by running around with Ashara in secret. When in actual fact, there are some men (and women) who would get a real kick out of doing exactly that. I guess it's nice that there are so many honourable dudes out there, but the reality is not all of them are.

Edited by maudisdottir

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im just morbidly curious about the supposed obsession Brandon Stark has with deflowering girls.

Has any one here ever slept with a virgin? Did you get all worked up about it cause of the blood and decide you must deflower more too? Is this an actual mentality of people? or obsession? How does this work? Do you just keep finding 13 year old girls to deflower well past your 20's? Wouldn't a girl on her period be sufficient to slate this blood lust? lol idk, i really just dont get it. And all because he was Barbary's first? Lol i just, i dont know, i find this disturbing and fascinating lol I've heard of dudes liking to get their red wings, but this kind of blood lust i've never heard of haha least of all to the point where it drives some ones actions other than some creep or pedophile. 

Brandon should of course have deflowered Caitlynn too given she was young and attractive and a virgin and already spoken of for him. Probably should have got at Howlands woman too, since his first kid was born around 283 and likely met her before the war.... so Brandon planted his flag there too. Come to think of it, we should have a few Snows in the North thanks to lusty Brandon deflowering girls. He died at 20 so that gives him a good couple years at least to lay some serious pipe work in the North. 

 

 

 

He is called the "Brandon of the Bloody Blade" for a reason! :D

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21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And what do we know about their characters? That Brandon is a womanizer who has womanised just one person, a highborn lady he promised to marry when he wasn't even betrothed to anyone?

1) He was betrothed, Catelyn was promised to him when twelve, so their betrothal had been going for some time (unless GRRM messed his timelines), only the Ryswells probably didn't know.

2) Betrothed or not, one is not supposed to deflower a highborn maiden prior the wedding because that brings her dishonour. Yet, Brandon showed no restraint in this respect, because "Brandon was never shy about what he wanted". 

So here you go Brandon's main defining features: showing no restraint of his desires, no consideration for another, to get what he wants, and societal norms or conduct of honour be screwed. It doesn't matter that we see him womanize "only" one woman - what matters is that we see a person fully capable to do so again.

21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Harrenhal was the biggest for a long time so this means many attendants and with Essos constantly getting supplied by Westerosi exiles, there could be some present in Harrenhal that has joined the Green Company. Lots of people saw her dance with Jon Connington too but when he turns up with (f)Aegon, no one in the Grolden Company assumes it is his bastard from Ashara when (f)Aegon and Ashara even share their eye colors. Instead, they take his word that it is Rhaegar's.

I must have missed the part where JonCon is one of the last people who saw Ashara alive and who even visited her home before she committed suicide.

Plus, you're forgetting the amount of time that passed in between Ashara's suicide and JonCon turning up with fAegon, which would be several years. Whereas, Ashara killed herself "soon after" giving birth, and Ned turned up with a young baby soon afterwards, as well.

21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How about this story: Brandon is known to be the biggest womanizer North has ever seen. People see them talking and some months later Ashara has a stillborn child and commits suicide. And Ned returns home with a bastard but since he is this honoroble decent dude, he can't be the one dishonoring her so the bastard must be from Brandon. Losing a lover, a brother, and a child Ashara now commits suicide. Why don't we see this version of the story? This one makes a lot more sense if Brandon was a known womanizer and Ned a guy who wouldn't dishonor anyone?

Thing is, Brandon didn't seem to be a known womanizer the way e.g. Robert was, or else we would have heard about his affair with Barbrey from other people, so deducing that he was the one who had knocked up Ashara may not be as clear-cut as you present it.

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think the Barbrey/Brandon story could be an indicator of what happened between Ned and Ashara.  They may have had a romance (consummated or not) with the expectation of a future marriage.  They were each a good match for the other.  Given that Brandon was already claimed, and Ned wasn't, if Ashara had a relationship with a Stark, I think Ned is the more likely. 

How is Ned more likely? What in his PoVs makes you think that he wouldn't stay good on his promise of a marriage, or that he wouldn't marry Ashara the first thing in the morning if he had slipped?

As you say yourself, they would be a good match, no reason either family should oppose such a union. Yet, we never hear anything about it, even though there was enough time between HH and the outbreak of the Rebellion during which it could be arranged, or.

Now, if Brandon was the one who dishonoured Ashara and Ned offered to step in to save both families from a scandal, it would explain why the negotiations were never made public or why Rickard might oppose the marriage, and why the Daynes seem to hold Ned in such high esteem.

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

As for Barristan's claims about mud and fire, given George's penchant for unreliable narrators, I will take it with a dose of skepticism.  

Funny that you choose to exercise this caution now, five books into the narrative when there is finally some light into the secrets of the past, instead at the beginning of the story when red herrings are to be expected aplenty.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well we both know i dont believe for a moment that Brandon low balled his brother for Ashara just cause he took another womans virginity so he must have a thing for it. 

No need for him "to have a thing for it" (though that "bloodied sword" comment is awfully gross and disturbing), it is enough for him to show no restraint when it comes to breaking social norms regarding extramarital sex. Which he does. And if he was capable of it once, there is no reason for him to become suddenly incapable of such behaviour when an opportunity presents itself.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not to mention Brandon died to early to father either of our two important characters or any other characters for that matter. And i dont believe Ashara's birthing was in 282. 

And who says that he must have fathered any of the important characters?

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jon vs Aegon for Daenerys.  Who all are children of Rhaegar by different mothers. The three heads of Rhaegars dragons. One head devouring the other. Its all in the narrative laid out by Martin in the back drop.

Well, but there have been Targaryens who didn't war over a sister, too, so there is no requirement for Jon and Aegon to go this way.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also lets not forget Ashara killed her self over the  loss of the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. Brandon died in 282. If Ashara was grief stricken over Brandon, she would have killed her self then.

Except if she conceived at HH, she would probably be still pregnant at that time, so, no. 

Plus, you are twisting the Barristan quote: perhaps for the man who dishonoured her at HH - i.e., his death may have been a factor in her suicide but definitely not the main one. Barristan thinks she was grief-stricken over the death of her baby instead. The problematic part is what Barristan means by "soon after" - days, weeks... months? - and if his assessment is correct in the first place. Because while he may have been privy to some information from Arthur about his sister, this information channel would be closed to him once Dayne went off the radar along with Rhaegar.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, she kills her self at the end of the war, following the death of Rhaegar. 

And of lots of other people, as well, including her brother Arthur. That is a very weak connection.

Plus, she doesn't kill herself right after Rhaegar's death, either - the Sack and the ToJ happen in between and Eddard comes with Dawn and Jon, or recovers Jon at Starfall.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not to mention the song Arya hears about some stupid lady throwing herself from a cliff for her dead prince. Only prince who died other than Martell, was Rhaegar. 

And about Martell we at least know that he had a paramour, whereas the link to Ashara and Rhaegar being more than just two people who lived under the same roof for some time is nonexistent.

Not to mention that dead princes are not exactly scarce in the history of Westeros and Ashara is not the only lady committing suicide by jumping from a high place we hear about. Claiming that the song must be about Ashara and Rhaegar (or that Daeron has access to some reliable information about the two) is incorrect.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There are just far more clues to point to what im saying. 

There are no clues pointing towards any intimate relationship between Rhaegar and Ashara.

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20 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

1) He was betrothed, Catelyn was promised to him when twelve, so their betrothal had been going for some time (unless GRRM messed his timelines), only the Ryswells probably didn't know.

2) Betrothed or not, one is not supposed to deflower a highborn maiden prior the wedding because that brings her dishonour. Yet, Brandon showed no restraint in this respect, because "Brandon was never shy about what he wanted". 

So here you go Brandon's main defining features: showing no restraint of his desires, no consideration for another, to get what he wants, and societal norms or conduct of honour be screwed. It doesn't matter that we see him womanize "only" one woman - what matters is that we see a person fully capable to do so again.

I don't think there's any possibility of your regional lord's heir being betrothed and you not knowing it. After all, this is no secret; Tywin planned to marry Jaime to Lysa the third born not Catelyn the second born who would be the better choice in every imaginable way possible.

Do you know who else deflowers a highborn maiden  and one that is much higher than him in the social hierarchy at that, prior to the wedding? Answer is Petyr Baelish. He deflowers Lysa. He also took what he wanted but no one thinks him as a womanizer. Why? Is it because his blade wasn't bloodied with Brandon's blood?

 

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I must have missed the part where JonCon is one of the last people who saw Ashara alive and who even visited her home before she committed suicide.

Plus, you're forgetting the amount of time that passed in between Ashara's suicide and JonCon turning up with fAegon, which would be several years. Whereas, Ashara killed herself "soon after" giving birth, and Ned turned up with a young baby soon afterwards, as well.

Ned being there around the time would bring some suspicions, true, but only ones who saw him being there are either his own men, which I doubt as this story comes along with the one him slaying Arthur, or Daynes' people, bar some he may have seen on the road. So for the rest of the world, all this comes from hearsay based on the assumptions of Ned's men. Someone else may very well have visited her home but that story just wasn't fancy enough as the one Ned killing Arthur and then going to Starfall to give Ashara "his sword".

I'm not forgetting about the time, I just didn't mind it because  Connington turns up with someone years later and proclaims him Aegon son of Rhaegar has people believing it. If they don't mind about the fact that he was proclaimed dead with many witnesses and Joncon not being in the Westeros, let alone in KL when this happened and fAegon only revealed many yeras later, they may very well not mind so much about where Ned was at that time.

Quote

Thing is, Brandon didn't seem to be a known womanizer the way e.g. Robert was, or else we would have heard about his affair with Barbrey from other people, so deducing that he was the one who had knocked up Ashara may not be as clear-cut as you present it.

 

Exactly. We only know of one person he put to the sword. While not being a known womanizer doesn't prove he isn't one, unless we learn of someone else he sticked with the pointy end, then one person claiming he loved his sword bloodied is also not proof of him being one. Again, LF example.

 

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im just morbidly curious about the supposed obsession Brandon Stark has with deflowering girls.

1 - Has any one here ever slept with a virgin? 2 - Did you get all worked up about it cause of the blood and decide you must deflower more too? Is this an actual mentality of people? or obsession? How does this work? Do you just keep finding 13 year old girls to deflower well past your 20's? 3 - Wouldn't a girl on her period be sufficient to slate this blood lust?

 

1 - never bedded one

2 - not interested

3 -  I'm fine with period sex

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3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - never bedded one

2 - not interested

3 -  I'm fine with period sex

Exactly. Being ok with period sex is one thing. Having a weird obsession at 20 years of age for deflowering 13 year olds is gross. 

Also, all based on one account from one bitter old woman.... hardly enough to prove Brandon was this disturbing person described. 

Also, any one who's actually been with virgins, knows the truth that they're clingers. 

And the logistics of keeping up that kind of obsession again just leads to creeps pedophile grounds. 

Is this really the Brandon Stark people think was written? All do to him sleeping with ONE virgin...... Thats thin. 

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The "bitter old woman" is like 30 years old?

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5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't think there's any possibility of your regional lord's heir being betrothed and you not knowing it. After all, this is no secret; Tywin planned to marry Jaime to Lysa the third born not Catelyn the second born who would be the better choice in every imaginable way possible.

And how would you know what your lord was doing, unless you were either expressly told or had spies in his household? It's not like Rickard had a FB profile with regular updates about his activities.

And sorry but Lord Ryswell deducing - if he even knew in the first place - that Tywin having plans for Jaime with Lysa means that Cat is promised to Brandon is a veeeery huge leap of logic, requiring Lord Ryswell to keep tabs on the marriage negotiations of every single House of importance.

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Do you know who else deflowers a highborn maiden  and one that is much higher than him in the social hierarchy at that, prior to the wedding? Answer is Petyr Baelish. He deflowers Lysa. He also took what he wanted but no one thinks him as a womanizer. Why? Is it because his blade wasn't bloodied with Brandon's blood?

Don't be ridiculous. Petyr deflowered Lysa because she crawled into his bed when he was so drunk that he even didn't know whom he was shagging.

Plus, I never claimed that Brandon was a womanizer in the sense of chasing every skirt. I said he was not beyond taking an advantage of a maiden, because that's what his affair with Barbrey shows us. We never see such a situation for Ned, and Ned's son amends deflowering a maiden by marrying her, putting her honour above his.

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned being there around the time would bring some suspicions, true, but only ones who saw him being there are either his own men, which I doubt as this story comes along with the one him slaying Arthur, or Daynes' people, bar some he may have seen on the road. So for the rest of the world, all this comes from hearsay based on the assumptions of Ned's men. Someone else may very well have visited her home but that story just wasn't fancy enough as the one Ned killing Arthur and then going to Starfall to give Ashara "his sword".

A wrong assumption on your part. Unless he had parked a part of his army somewhere close to ToJ and picked them on his way to Starfall, the information that he had been to Starfall to return Dawn must come from Ned himself because Howland Reed would hardly share the story. Mind you: at some point, Ned returned to KL to inform Robert about Lyanna's death and made up with him, and this is also the point when Ned needs to explain why he made the detour to Starfall (unless he went to KL first and to Starfall only afterwards, under the pretext of returning Dawn but in reality to pick up Jon, who had either been sent there by the KG prior Ned's arrival, or by Ned himself to make sure that he, Lyanna's bones and the baby are never seen together)

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I'm not forgetting about the time, I just didn't mind it because  Connington turns up with someone years later and proclaims him Aegon son of Rhaegar has people believing it. If they don't mind about the fact that he was proclaimed dead with many witnesses and Joncon not being in the Westeros, let alone in KL when this happened and fAegon only revealed many yeras later, they may very well not mind so much about where Ned was at that time.

That long time period, though, is important because it obscures connections and who was where with whom in people's minds. Therefore, while people may not believe that fAegon is Rhaegar's son, Ashara's supposedly stillborn baby doesn't come to mind so easily because it's been a long time and babies die all the time.

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 to show no restraint when it comes to breaking social norms regarding extramarital sex

Which is something I can't see a young Ned doing for the life of me. I feel like if he fell for Ashara he'd beg his father and hers for a marriage before he'd sleep with her. Brandon on the other hand...I mean he's the guy who rode up to the Mad King's door step and demanded that his son face him in mortal combat. That, taking Barb's virginity, beating up Baelish and his death are the actions he's most known for in the story.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

1) He was betrothed, Catelyn was promised to him when twelve, so their betrothal had been going for some time (unless GRRM messed his timelines), only the Ryswells probably didn't know.

2) Betrothed or not, one is not supposed to deflower a highborn maiden prior the wedding because that brings her dishonour. Yet, Brandon showed no restraint in this respect, because "Brandon was never shy about what he wanted". 

So here you go Brandon's main defining features: showing no restraint of his desires, no consideration for another, to get what he wants, and societal norms or conduct of honour be screwed. It doesn't matter that we see him womanize "only" one woman - what matters is that we see a person fully capable to do so again.

I must have missed the part where JonCon is one of the last people who saw Ashara alive and who even visited her home before she committed suicide.

Plus, you're forgetting the amount of time that passed in between Ashara's suicide and JonCon turning up with fAegon, which would be several years. Whereas, Ashara killed herself "soon after" giving birth, and Ned turned up with a young baby soon afterwards, as well.

Thing is, Brandon didn't seem to be a known womanizer the way e.g. Robert was, or else we would have heard about his affair with Barbrey from other people, so deducing that he was the one who had knocked up Ashara may not be as clear-cut as you present it.

How is Ned more likely? What in his PoVs makes you think that he wouldn't stay good on his promise of a marriage, or that he wouldn't marry Ashara the first thing in the morning if he had slipped?

As you say yourself, they would be a good match, no reason either family should oppose such a union. Yet, we never hear anything about it, even though there was enough time between HH and the outbreak of the Rebellion during which it could be arranged, or.

Now, if Brandon was the one who dishonoured Ashara and Ned offered to step in to save both families from a scandal, it would explain why the negotiations were never made public or why Rickard might oppose the marriage, and why the Daynes seem to hold Ned in such high esteem.

Funny that you choose to exercise this caution now, five books into the narrative when there is finally some light into the secrets of the past, instead at the beginning of the story when red herrings are to be expected aplenty.

No need for him "to have a thing for it" (though that "bloodied sword" comment is awfully gross and disturbing), it is enough for him to show no restraint when it comes to breaking social norms regarding extramarital sex. Which he does. And if he was capable of it once, there is no reason for him to become suddenly incapable of such behaviour when an opportunity presents itself.

And who says that he must have fathered any of the important characters?

Well, but there have been Targaryens who didn't war over a sister, too, so there is no requirement for Jon and Aegon to go this way.

Except if she conceived at HH, she would probably be still pregnant at that time, so, no. 

Plus, you are twisting the Barristan quote: perhaps for the man who dishonoured her at HH - i.e., his death may have been a factor in her suicide but definitely not the main one. Barristan thinks she was grief-stricken over the death of her baby instead. The problematic part is what Barristan means by "soon after" - days, weeks... months? - and if his assessment is correct in the first place. Because while he may have been privy to some information from Arthur about his sister, this information channel would be closed to him once Dayne went off the radar along with Rhaegar.

And of lots of other people, as well, including her brother Arthur. That is a very weak connection.

Plus, she doesn't kill herself right after Rhaegar's death, either - the Sack and the ToJ happen in between and Eddard comes with Dawn and Jon, or recovers Jon at Starfall.

And about Martell we at least know that he had a paramour, whereas the link to Ashara and Rhaegar being more than just two people who lived under the same roof for some time is nonexistent.

Not to mention that dead princes are not exactly scarce in the history of Westeros and Ashara is not the only lady committing suicide by jumping from a high place we hear about. Claiming that the song must be about Ashara and Rhaegar (or that Daeron has access to some reliable information about the two) is incorrect.

There are no clues pointing towards any intimate relationship between Rhaegar and Ashara.

This is all way to easy to argue against as your clearly just trying to dismiss alot of clues that all line up. And i mean alot, im holding back and can easily flood this page with information and quotes far surpassing any weak argument for Brandon. Half the people on here are still desperately trying to argue that Jon is Brandon's kid. You cant argue reason to people that far off haha desperate arguments that Martin lied to his business partners or other rubbish just seems like grasping from people displeased their ideas weren't right. Ive heard all the arguments and theyre all the same baseless arguments centered around one snippet of what Barbary says, and the vague hopeful chance that Martin lied to David and Dan. Yea, that a whole lot im working against. 

Half the people on here parrot the maesters and think they sound like scholars or some how more inherently smarter than all us poor people who dont trust the Maesters haha and they speak it with the same confidence using same terms of absolution that make me chuckle more often than not.

You missed the point about the Targs by the way. The Throne is what they're fighting over. The sister is the throne. She is the one inheriting the throne and their path to rule by marrying her. It flips to as pointed out above. It can be two targ sisters over their king brother. Hence Stannis vs Renly for the throne. 

People i feel are so obsessed with asserting their own ideas rather than actually trying to look at what Martin has set up and is saying. Which would explain why Martin say's most of these theories are way off. I hear doing the same thing and expecting different results is productive though ;) Obviously some of this is blanket  statements not directed to any particular person but rather a mind set of this forum ive noticed. Hate to say it but the LastHearth is a lil better when you wanna get some deeper insightful theories. It seems in here, a couple ideas have been latched on to, and they've just clung around like a bad smell. 

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19 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

The "bitter old woman" is like 30 years old?

And? Im 34. What's your point? lol She aint no spring chicken that's for dang sure hahah but sure, she's not old haha She's old enough to be a mom and old enough to be considered old by a young person. It happens. 

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Half the people on here parrot the maesters and think they sound like scholars or some how more inherently smarter than all us poor people who dont trust the Maesters haha and they speak it with the same confidence using same terms of absolution that make me chuckle more often than not.

I take issue with this.

Thanks for enlightening me haha.

By maesters are you referring to post count, haha?

This is my perspective. The five books Martin wrote in the supposedly seven book never-ending story needs to make sense without the extra material.

As far as ASOIAF is concerned Martin as of book five has not confirmed Lyanna & Rhaegar as Jon Snow’s parents.

As I see it Mr. Martin, if he wants acclaim needs to have the story make sense without extra material. Extra material is interesting and enjoyable.

Think about this for a nano second. If you had not read the as yet incomplete Dunk & Egg tales would you connect Bloodraven to Bran’s old man in the CotF cave? I wouldn’t have.

With Mr. Martin’s gardening style wtf knows where this story is going.

I give Mr. Martin thumbs down on Eddard’s bastard mother story writing --- Ashara, the fisherman’s daughter, Wylla. Did I leave out any other false leads, haha?

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Exactly. Being ok with period sex is one thing. Having a weird obsession at 20 years of age for deflowering 13 year olds is gross. 

Also, all based on one account from one bitter old woman.... hardly enough to prove Brandon was this disturbing person described. 

Also, any one who's actually been with virgins, knows the truth that they're clingers. 

And the logistics of keeping up that kind of obsession again just leads to creeps pedophile grounds. 

Is this really the Brandon Stark people think was written? All do to him sleeping with ONE virgin...... Thats thin. 

I never said it wasn't gross. You claimed that men wouldn't want to deflower virgins, and I confirmed there are some men who ONLY want to seduce virgins, making your "clinging" comments redundant as once they'd broken one in they'd have moved on to the next virgin. I have known men like this, and yes they were creeps.

This is what the "one virgin" has to say about Brandon:

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Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt' he used to say.

I don't know how you're not getting that Brandon is a ladies' man. Remember, he's saying this to the maiden he deflowered. If you were secretly courting an innocent young girl, is that how you would speak to her? This guy is a player.

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And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing' he told me once.

 

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Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes.

Why would Barbrey make those comments about a man she had hoped to marry, and who took her maidenhead anyway even though he never promised her anything:

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...my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted.

No doubt Lord Ryswell would have liked a betrothal but it obviously wasn't a requirement for the future Lord Stark to sleep with his daughter.

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The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together.

Nowhere does Brandon profess love for her, or secretly propose, as I've seen claimed in these threads recently. This is all wishful thinking on Barbrey (and her father's) part.

This is the guy who wasn't too shy to go up to the most beautiful girl at the tourney and (successfully) ask her to dance with his shy, plain brother. He's charming too, which helps when trying to seduce maidens.

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16 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I never said it wasn't gross. You claimed that men wouldn't want to deflower virgins, and I confirmed there are some men who ONLY want to seduce virgins, making your "clinging" comments redundant as once they'd broken one in they'd have moved on to the next virgin. I have known men like this, and yes they were creeps.

This is what the "one virgin" has to say about Brandon:

I don't know how you're not getting that Brandon is a ladies' man. Remember, he's saying this to the maiden he deflowered. If you were secretly courting an innocent young girl, is that how you would speak to her? This guy is a player.

 

Why would Barbrey make those comments about a man she had hoped to marry, and who took her maidenhead anyway even though he never promised her anything:

No doubt Lord Ryswell would have liked a betrothal but it obviously wasn't a requirement for the future Lord Stark to sleep with his daughter.

Nowhere does Brandon profess love for her, or secretly propose, as I've seen claimed in these threads recently. This is all wishful thinking on Barbrey (and her father's) part.

This is the guy who wasn't too shy to go up to the most beautiful girl at the tourney and (successfully) ask her to dance with his shy, plain brother. He's charming too, which helps when trying to seduce maidens.

I would believe more that Brandon actually did care for Barbary and why he could just be him self with her. This would explain all your quotes much better as it's mentioned neither Barbary or Brandon were happy about him having to marry Cat. So no, i dont think Brandon was a player. No where's is Brandon described as a creep, so the scenario put forth makes no sense to me. So what, he went and asked for his brother lol Ive gone up to lots of girls for my friends in the day, and not once did i do it for me lol you simply do it cause your friend or whom ever you care about, likes some one but can't make the move, so you tip it in their favor for them. I just in no way buy the set up that Brandon asking Ashara was for him. All based on his relationship with Barbary. Cause, as your quote shows, they kept hooking up long after he took her virginity. 

Kinda debunks your whole theory if he didn't move on to the next virgin. Specially since he stopped seeing Barbary once it was said he was to wed Cat, suggesting he was faithful to Cat, having put aside the woman he was CLEARLY seeing. 

 

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The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together.

So yeah, kinda wrecks your whole theory. 

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