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RedGrace that was promised

Does Mance take inspiration from NW oath in his plans?

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I don't understand why NW oath specifically mentions word "crowns". There is technically one way to wear crowns after taking blacks. You have to become King Beyond the Wall (if you don't have crazy plan to invade Winterfell). So it seems to me that Mance specifically breaks everything in the oath. There are also other things in the oath that Mance refused to do:

  • I shall take no wife, father no children, win no glory - known stuff
  • I am the fire that burns against the cold. Somehow Lord of Bones was burned instead of Mance. And Mance didn't become fire.
  • the horn that wakes the sleepers. Mance didn't use Joramun's  horn.
Edited by Davos the Dragonslayer

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1 hour ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

I don't understand why NW oath specifically mentions word "crowns". There is technically one way to wear crowns after taking blacks. You have to become King Beyond the Wall (if you don't have crazy plan to invade Winterfell). So it seems to me that Mance specifically breaks everything in the oath. There are also other things in the oath that Mance refused to do:

  • I shall take no wife, father no children, win no glory - known stuff
  • I am the fire that burns against the cold. Somehow Lord of Bones was burned instead of Mance. And Mance didn't become fire.
  • the horn that wakes the sleepers. Mance didn't use Joramun's  horn.

NW oath mentions crowns imo because of the NK. He's the only LC  or member of the NW to ever crown himself King. 

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23 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

NW oath mentions crowns imo because of the NK. He's the only LC  or member of the NW to ever crown himself King. 

So before NK there is no word "crowns" in the oath. Then NK has a good reason to declare himself king since it isn't against his oath.

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3 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

So before NK there is no word "crowns" in the oath. Then NK has a good reason to declare himself king since it isn't against his oath.

I forgot to add in my first post,  I think that could be the reason why crowns is in oath. I don't know for sure. Or they could've always had crowns in the oath.  I just find it odd that for years the NK ruled over the NW before he was finally stopped, if crowns was always in the oath.

Edited by Daemon The Black Dragon

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Perhaps this is the original oath used at the Night Fort.  The password to open the Black Gate:
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

Edited by LynnS

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8 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Mance specifically breaks everything in the oath

Well, he left the Watch. Why would he still be bound by the oath? He broke the oath. Moreover, Mance never crowned himself, nor wore a crown, nor claimed kingship. Just that he was the dude that the various and sundry free folk were currently following. None of them ever kneeled to him, nor would they. I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

Re: "will wear no crowns" - that's just a part of "hold no lands" and "win no glory." It reaffirms that the swearer is now and until his death a part of the Night's Watch, totally out of the politics and hereditary claims of the 7 kingdoms. Any advancement or positions of authority will be within the Watch, which doesn't have lords or kings.

Re: "the fire that burns in the darkness" - something that gives light and warmth. Nothing to do with Mance's apparent execution. The Watch's oath predates Mance Rayder by thousands of years.

Re: "the horn that wakes the sleepers" - as in a warning, a call to battle. That there may be such a thing as "Joramun's horn" is totally coincidental. Horns make a loud noise and were the medieval equivalent of today's siren. No specific or intended reference to Mance Rayder.

Moreover, why should Mance bring down the wall? Jon let him and his (remaining) people through. They were seeking safety, not trying to screw up the first-line protective barrier for all of Westeros.

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13 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

I don't understand why NW oath specifically mentions word "crowns". There is technically one way to wear crowns after taking blacks. You have to become King Beyond the Wall (if you don't have crazy plan to invade Winterfell). So it seems to me that Mance specifically breaks everything in the oath. There are also other things in the oath that Mance refused to do:

  • I shall take no wife, father no children, win no glory - known stuff
  • I am the fire that burns against the cold. Somehow Lord of Bones was burned instead of Mance. And Mance didn't become fire.
  • the horn that wakes the sleepers. Mance didn't use Joramun's  horn.

The answer is very simple.  Mance Rayder is a despicable man who did what he wanted whenever he could get away with it.  In the words of Quorin Halfhand "Mance is the best of us but he was also the worst of us".  Mance was pretty good at ranging.  Mance was bad at obeying the rules and keeping to his oaths.  He loved the women and loved to party.  He had trouble with obedience.  He's a terrible man.  He may be charming but he's evil. 

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11 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

In the words of Quorin Halfhand "Mance is the best of us but he was also the worst of us".

Good way of summarizing it! Thanks.

On the other hand, Mance's rallying of the various freefolk to bring them south and through the Wall, to escape the oncoming Others, was a good move, and something that apparently the separate "free" peoples hadn't seriously considered. His decision that what they needed to do was attack the Night's Watch castle was really suboptimal, in my opinion. Why not first send envoys to try and convince the Watch of the danger and plead to be let through, and the promise to fight and help defend the Wall? Meanwhile, asking that the non-fighters be allowed to settle in the Gift and New Gift.

It's likely that attack (and escape south) was the only course of action that would successfully rally these folks, however, with their tradition of forcibly taking whatever they wanted (aka "Self Reliance") and refusal to "bend the knee" (aka agree to any rules but their own whim of the moment). This strategy seriously depleted their ranks, however. Fortunately, the survivors were more likely to try the negotiated solution.

Edited by zandru

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The problem is that the Watch has forgotten their true purpose and their true enemy.  The wildlings have been made into the enemy and kept imprisoned behind the Wall.  The oath is taken to protect the realms of men from the ancient enemy; not to wage war on the wildlings.  The oath has no weight in that context and Mance and the wildlings know more about the enemy than the Watch and everyone south of the Wall combined.  Mance is made nefarious by ignorance and bigotry. 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

"If we are taken, you must yield."

"Yield?" He blinked in disbelief. The wildlings did not make captives of the men they called the crows. They killed them, except for . . . "They only spare oathbreakers. Those who join them, like Mance Rayder."

"And you."

 

The oath, as the Watch applies it to the wildlings is BS, and anyone who comes to understand it as a perversion, is welcomed into their ranks.    The oath is the Musgrave Ritual of the Night's Watch.  They say the words but they don't understand what it means.

Edited by LynnS

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2 hours ago, zandru said:

Good way of summarizing it! Thanks.

On the other hand, Mance's rallying of the various freefolk to bring them south and through the Wall, to escape the oncoming Others, was a good move, and something that apparently the separate "free" peoples hadn't seriously considered. His decision that what they needed to do was attack the Night's Watch castle was really suboptimal, in my opinion. Why not first send envoys to try and convince the Watch of the danger and plead to be let through, and the promise to fight and help defend the Wall? Meanwhile, asking that the non-fighters be allowed to settle in the Gift and New Gift.

It's likely that attack (and escape south) was the only course of action that would successfully rally these folks, however, with their tradition of forcibly taking whatever they wanted (aka "Self Reliance") and refusal to "bend the knee" (aka agree to any rules but their own whim of the moment). This strategy seriously depleted their ranks, however. Fortunately, the survivors were more likely to try the negotiated solution.

Yeah, I don't really see Mance as an evil and despicable man.  He certainly has his flaws like anybody else, but he was a wildling at birth and like Qhorin said was simply returning home when he left the NW.  

And I agree- the idea that Mance could send envoys to treat with the NW is a nice thought, but idealistic to the point of irrational in the world of ASOIAF.  And that goes both ways.  Wildlings are for the most part unwilling to bend the knee in the Westerosi conception of what that means, and the NW was unwilling to treat with the wildlings to begin with.  That was a non-starter.

I do think the great tragedy in all this is that the Fist of the First Men changed all this.  It led to an epiphany by the Old Bear that the NW had forgotten its true purpose, and I really do believe that had the Old Bear made it back to Castle Black, Mance would have found a willing listener as far as peace talks go.  And furthermore, the Old Bear would have been a better figurehead for wildling peace than Jon Snow was, with Jon Snow being a warg and sleeping with Ygritte making him seem "too wildling" for many of the NW brothers.  

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem is that the Watch has forgotten their true purpose and their true enemy.  The wildlings have been made into the enemy and kept imprisoned behind the Wall.  The oath is taken to protect the realms of men from the ancient enemy; not to wage war on the wildlings.  The oath has no weight in that context and Mance and the wildlings know more about the enemy than the Watch and everyone south of the Wall combined.  Mance is made nefarious by ignorance and bigotry. 

The oath, as the Watch applies it to the wildlings is BS, and anyone who comes to understand it as a perversion, is welcomed into their ranks.    The oath is the Musgrave Ritual of the Night's Watch.  They say the words but they don't understand what it means.

Well said.  I couldn't agree more.  I think when you look at Jon's arc throughout ASOIAF, one of the key points throughout it is the NW has become corrupted and unwieldy over the years through mismanagement and the Others' disappearance.  The Musgrave Ritual is actually a pretty spot-on comparison in that you can get a guy like Bowen Marsh who hears the words about guarding the realms of men and understand it to mean that the wildlings should be left to go extinct and join the Others.  Whereas both Jon and the Old Bear eventually come to understand the realms of men as including the wildlings.  

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19 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

The answer is very simple.  Mance Rayder is a despicable man who did what he wanted whenever he could get away with it.  In the words of Quorin Halfhand "Mance is the best of us but he was also the worst of us".  Mance was pretty good at ranging.  Mance was bad at obeying the rules and keeping to his oaths.  He loved the women and loved to party.  He had trouble with obedience.  He's a terrible man.  He may be charming but he's evil. 

Mance has done more than everyone else in asoiaf to save the realm, outside of perhaps bloodraven. He's a good guy

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On 11/24/2017 at 7:56 AM, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

NW oath specifically mentions word "crowns".

Which is why Aemon took the black on top of being a Maester. The things that sweet old timer did for his family only for them to destroy themselves. 

19 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

He may be charming but he's evil. 

Are these the words of a truly evil man?Mance is his own champion and Harpist He sure swayed me with this speech.

 

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