Nights Watch number pre AGOT makes no sense!!

[Stormking902]

Were told that pre AGOT the NW numbers are some where in the ball park of 1000 men which is a long way from the 10000 plus they had before Aegon and his conquest of Westeros my question is how does the NW lose so many men when in theory a united Westeros should yield MORE men then just the North could previously? 

 

The nights watch use to be a very honorable order but pre AGOT we see its pretty much a joke now unfortunatly so this accounts for losing men who wish to join willingly BUT............. the combined man power of the 8 kingdoms of Westeros criminals alone who chose the NW over death, losing a hand, castration, etc would be WAY more then what the NW watch had previously willingly.

Also take in account the homeless smallfolk who have no home or food in the winter and would use the watch as a means of pure survival, the homeless rate in fuedalism time was very high so IMO most would chose the watch over as I said starving I know I would. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Were told that pre AGOT the NW numbers are some where in the ball park of 1000 men which is a long way from the 10000 plus they had before Aegon and his conquest of Westeros my question is how does the NW lose so many men when in theory a united Westeros should yield MORE men then just the North could previously? 

 

The nights watch use to be a very honorable order but pre AGOT we see its pretty much a joke now unfortunatly so this accounts for losing men who wish to join willingly BUT............. the combined man power of the 8 kingdoms of Westeros criminals alone who chose the NW over death, losing a hand, castration, etc would be WAY more then what the NW watch had previously willingly.

Also take in account the homeless smallfolk who have no home or food in the winter and would use the watch as a means of pure survival, the homeless rate in fuedalism time was very high so IMO most would chose the watch over as I said starving I know I would. 

 

Well for starters I think the numbers started dwindling as the threat became more about the wildlings than the Others. 

There is hardly any one who decides to join the watch willingly anymore. They almost only get criminals. We need to remember though that not every criminal is given the option to join the watch rather than take their sentence. From what we've seen men usually only get sent to the wall when a member of the NW comes asking for men & is given the pick of the dungeons. 

As for the homeless I don't recall one occasion where a homeless person chose to go to the NW. I'm sure some have but not so many that it makes any difference. 

To me it makes sense, given the state of the 7K that the wall is short of men. Hardly anyone knows or believes the real threat to the realm. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

As pointed out before on this forum numerous times, I think the Western houses, and riverlords and etc. simply didn't hold the NW in this esteemed light like a lot of the Northern houses and Lords did. So I just think it was a case of many feeling like the Other threat was nomore, and the Watch was simply to keep the unwashed, stupid, savages away (The Wildlings), but never considered them much of a threat, so a lot probably figured that the NW wasn't even worthy of it's criminals, common folk, and exiles. As a result the NW lost it's mystique, and lot of it's appeal, thus dwindling numbers.

[Lord Varys]

The numbers would have crumbled this much this quickly simply because the Watch no longer got any real volunteers. Aside from Waymar Royce and Jon Snow (sort of) the Watch didn't get any real volunteers throughout the series. None of Jon's buddies is there because he wanted to take the black.

And it is not that anyone in Westeros - not even in the North - is sending any third or fourth sons to the Wall, either. Else there would have been some Umbers, Karstarks, Ryswells, clansmen, etc. in the Watch, training alongside Jon.

If people have no incentive to join a military order which is essentially something a man had to do of his own free will, then such an institution slowly - or quickly - dies.

And the practice of the lords and kings - going back at least to Nymeria - to send defeated foes and criminals to the Watch also didn't help to better its reputation. The fact that you can get around a death sentence - or actually any other punishment - if you volunteer for the Watch shows how greatly people honored the institution back in the day. It really means you once could make all their crimes and sins go away if you publicly declared to take it upon yourself to guard the realms of men.

But when essentially only criminals 'volunteer' for the Watch to get off the hook things go downhill. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Most of the rapid decline of the Night's Watch has to do with the maesters and the not-so-wise decisions forced on the north and the wall made by Jaehaerys and "Good" Queen Alysanne. Cutting off the natural way of habit, life, and balance to the north and its indigenous peoples, diverting the watch's attention from watching for the Others and/or wights (not free folk) and giving of the "new gift" really messed up the natural balance of things.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Most of the rapid decline of the Night's Watch has to do with the maesters and the not-so-wise decisions forced on the north and the wall made by Jaehaerys and "Good" Queen Alysanne. Cutting off the natural way of habit, life, and balance to the north and its indigenous peoples, diverting the watch's attention from watching for the Others and/or wights (not free folk) and giving of the "new gift" really messed up the natural balance of things.

Not really. The point is just that nowhere wanted to serve at that place anymore. Neither in the North nor elsewhere. If there were more men up there, the Gifts would be safer, and if the Gifts had been safer, the peasants wouldn't have run away.

What led to the decline to the Watch is (young) men collectively losing the interest in joining their ranks. As long as taking the black is a voluntarily choice, involving a man swearing a solemn vow he is obliged to keep, lords and kings cannot command anyone to take the black. Even those criminals who take the black have a choice - pledge to take the black, or get whatever punishments (not necessarily death) they deserve for their crimes. They are not forced to do so.

Nobody 'forced' the Watch, either, to focus on the wildlings. They came up with that decision all by themselves, most likely long before the Conquest took place - and then, most likely, because the Starks and the Northmen pushed them in that direction. After all, the only reason the Watch would care about the wildlings is because they threatened and attacked the lands the Watch is sworn to protect. And the Northmen would be completely stupid to support a military order on their border if those men actually made common cause with the wildlings or allowed them to cross the Wall to raid the lands in the south. In that sense, it is pretty obvious the NW eventually had to reach the conclusion that they also had to watch the people trying to cross the Wall - and it is pretty clear that traders and people coming in peace, etc. where allowed to approached the Wall and, most likely, to even pass it.

The Watch never did fight wars of aggression beyond the Wall as far as we know - and if they did that at one point, it would have been in ancient times, when the Watch still had the resources to stuff like that - and we do know that there is perfectly peaceful trade between the wildlings, the Watch, and other traders at places like Eastwatch.

In that light it is also interesting to note that the Watch never really played all that prominent roles in the fight against the Kings-beyond-the-Wall. Those were mostly wars between Winterfell and the wildlings. The Watch had literally no part in the battle against Raymun and - as far as we know - Bael. The Horned Lord apparently also could circumvent the Wall via magic. Gorne and Gendel circumvented it, too, although Gendel's people may have been killed by a coalition of Starks, Umbers, and Watchmen.

We do know why wildlings like Ygritte hate that wall. Because they think it has been built to cut the land apart and prevent them from going wherever they want. But they are wrong about that. The Wall is there to protect the realms of men from the Others. And if the wildlings are men, too - which they are - they should sent their sons to serve in the Watch just as the people of the Hundred and later the Seven Kingdoms did.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really. The point is just that nowhere wanted to serve at that place anymore. Neither in the North nor elsewhere. If there were more men up there, the Gifts would be safer, and if the Gifts had been safer, the peasants wouldn't have run away.

~snipped~

Except, what you say does not match the books as what has been shown. And if you are missing the big clue that anyone called "Good" means they are literally good, then I can't help you. Just like "sweet" is not always "sweet".

The small folk left after the lands were screwed up because of a fire invasion. Just as mentioned in the series. Heck, George even hints heavily at this in ASOAIF by drawing back to his "Ice Dragon" story.

[Lord Varys]

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Except, what you say does not match the books as what has been shown. And if you are missing the big clue that anyone called "Good" means they are literally good, then I can't help you. Just like "sweet" is not always "sweet".

You are trolling me now, right? Alysanne is one of the few people in this series we have reason to believe actually deserved to be called 'good'. Next you are going to argue that Baelor the Blessed was an atheist who actually tried to poison the good denizens of King's Landing with the free bread he gave them... Because, you know, somebody who is called 'the Blessed' cannot actually be a nice and pious guy.

It is pretty clear that the whole New Gift had literally nothing to do with the reason why the average Westerosi man - Starks and Northmen included - decided they could do something better with their lives than joining the Night's Watch.

The peasant problem could actually be rather easily resolved - if more men decided to take the black again, the Starks and the Iron Throne could actually establish programs to resettle the Gifts with new peasants. It is not that peasants have any rights to choose where they live.

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The small folk left after the lands were screwed up because of a fire invasion. Just as mentioned in the series. Heck, George even hints heavily at this in ASOAIF by drawing back to his "Ice Dragon" story.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The smallfolk left because the NW could no longer protect the people living there from the wildlings raiding those lands on a regular basis. That is the only explanation we are giving in the text.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are trolling me now, right?

Yeah, cuz that’s what I do. 

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Alysanne is one of the few people in this series we have reason to believe actually deserved to be called 'good'.

Nope. George doesn’t write any character as all good, and even the “bad” ones might like puppies. But that puppy doesn’t undo the large scale danger of putting the realm at risk, as GQA conviced KJ to do. 

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Next you are going to argue that Baelor the Blessed was an atheist who actually tried to poison the good denizens of King's Landing with the free bread he gave them... Because, you know, somebody who is called 'the Blessed' cannot actually be a nice and pious guy.

Nope. Didn’t say that at all. Don’t put words in my mouth. I’m still eating pumpkin pie and that takes priority. 

But now that you mention it, Baelor is a “Steel Angel” and Proctor Wyatt, right down to the sword in hand. Thanks for pointing that out. 

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It is pretty clear that the whole New Gift had literally nothing to do with the reason why the average Westerosi man - Starks and Northmen included - decided they could do something better with their lives than joining the Night's Watch.

What GQA and KJ did took the focus of the watchnaway from the wall and it led to it's downfall, as the books literally show and tell us. I’m not at my computer or I’d give you the quotes I’ve given you before when we pulled each other’s pigtails over this in days of future past. 

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The peasant problem could actually be rather easily resolved - if more men decided to take the black again, the Starks and the Iron Throne could actually establish programs to resettle the Gifts with new peasants. It is not that peasants have any rights to choose where they live.

Correct. And depending on how much of this land is left after the wight walk of shame, this is what Jon was planning to do. See, you and Jon have similar thoughts. Except, every time the (southron) throne meddles where they shouldn’t, it all goes to shit. They need to stay out of it for the most part. Maybe just support a program, but certainly not try to law, sway, or control it. Just ask Janos Slynt. 

Also, doing this might undo the blight that Visenya (the fire in that trio) created when she took any glory from joining the watch and diverted it to the new king. But the irony in this is that Jon, as king of winter, will have the watch as his kingsguard... so, double meaning, themes repeat, yards yadda. 

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This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The smallfolk left because the NW could no longer protect the people living there from the wildlings raiding those lands on a regular basis. That is the only explanation we are giving in the text.

Ugh! Rumors and exaggeration, as we see the Riverlanders do repeatedly during the Wo5K’s. You know this  

... and now my phone is dying, only to be recharged harder and stronger. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

It was not just the north providing men for the wall before the conquest, it was all Westeros.

Another popular misconception on these boards is that the Targ rule was not beneficial to westeros, and that there were just as many wars after as before.  This is extremely false.

The kingdoms were constantly at war before the Targs united them, and when people use to loose those wars they would be given the option of taking the black as opposed to death, and many took that option.  Nymeria sent kings all the way from Dorne to the wall, 5 of them I believe.  They would not have gone alone.

Giving away the new gift also seems to have been a detriment.  I am sure some of the boys who lived there took the black in the past, now that it is practically abandoned lands no one is there to do so.  Which also makes the NW ask for more resources rather than manpower.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

10,000 men sounds familiar... who has 10,000 men?

 

Oh right, the Golden Company. And they source their men from the losers of wars in Westeros... who else used to source their men from losers of wars?

 

Oh right, the NW.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nope. George doesn’t write any character as all good, and even the “bad” ones might like puppies. But that puppy doesn’t undo the large scale danger of putting the realm at risk, as GQA conviced KJ to do. 

Ah, now I understand. Brienne, Davos, and Ned are all corrupt assholes because they are portrayed as decent and nice human beings. Why didn't I see that myself?

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nope. Didn’t say that at all. Don’t put words in my mouth. I’m still eating pumpkin pie and that takes priority. 

That was a rhetorical comment.

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But now that you mention it, Baelor is a “Steel Angel” and Proctor Wyatt, right down to the sword in hand. Thanks for pointing that out. 

LOL, no. Baelor was mad religious nutcase, sure, but he was actually believing in caring for his people. We never saw any other lord or king actually using the vast resources at his disposal to feed the poor.

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What GQA and KJ did took the focus of the watchnaway from the wall and it led to it's downfall, as the books literally show and tell us.

Nope. It may be that the New Gift didn't do what it was supposed to do - help to stop the decline of the Watch - but it didn't cause that decline. What caused the decline is what I already said: (Young) men having better things to do than to join the Watch and freeze their balls off up there.

And why should they? Nobody believes in the Others anymore. Not even the Starks and the other Northmen. Their support of the Watch is dying, too, they just continue it because of the wildlings. If they weren't a (minor) issue the Watch would long be dead.

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Correct. And depending on how much of this land is left after the wight walk of shame, this is what Jon was planning to do. See, you and Jon have similar thoughts. Except, every time the (southron) throne meddles where they shouldn’t, it all goes to shit. They need to stay out of it for the most part. Maybe just support a program, but certainly not try to law, sway, or control it. Just ask Janos Slynt. 

Why should anyone want to resettle the Gifts if the Others are defeated? The Wall is going to fall and nobody is going to rebuild it. They will either end the threat of the Others for good and all or they will all die. There is not going to be another stalemate.

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, doing this might undo the blight that Visenya (the fire in that trio) created when she took any glory from joining the watch and diverted it to the new king. But the irony in this is that Jon, as king of winter, will have the watch as his kingsguard... so, double meaning, themes repeat, yards yadda. 

LOL, you are not making any sense. The Kingsguard consists of seven knights. Seven knights. Do you think it matters whether there are seven men more or less up at the Wall. And, you know, unlike the Kingsguard the NW always took pretty much any man - that is why there are rangers, builders, and stewards up there. They all have to be able to fight, but they don't have to be the best - or most loyal - warriors in the Seven Kingdoms - unlike the Kingsguard.

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ugh! Rumors and exaggeration, as we see the Riverlanders do repeatedly during the Wo5K’s. You know this  

Again, we have ample evidence that the wildlings raided the Gifts, leading to the migration of the peasants there to safer lands. There is simply no other explanation for this. Nobody up there was threatening them. The Watch didn't do anything to them, and neither did their neighbors in the lands of the Umbers and clansmen.

In fact, before the decline of the Watch - when they could still prevent the wildlings from crossing the Wall as regularly as they later did - the Gift(s) would have been the safest peasant land in all of Westeros. The Night's Watch takes no part, if you recall. Which means that neither the various warring petty kings nor later rebels against the rule of Winterfell, etc. would have enter Watch territory or harm smallfolk of the Night's Watch. Aside from the climatic conditions, living up there would have been a virtual paradise.

[The Fattest Leech]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, now I understand. Brienne, Davos, and Ned are all corrupt assholes because they are portrayed as decent and nice human beings. Why didn't I see that myself?

That was a rhetorical comment.

Now you are just bogging down the conversation by serving your "gator meat" and starting down the futile route. All I can say is that, to paraphrase another forum better, you are gonna hate TWOW!

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

10,000 men sounds familiar... who has 10,000 men?

 

Oh right, the Golden Company. And they source their men from the losers of wars in Westeros... who else used to source their men from losers of wars?

 

Oh right, the NW.

They were founded by losers and they are still sourcing some men from Westeros but they aren't all strictly Westerosi or descendants of Westerosi. Their summer islander bowmen are proof of it.

 

On dwindling numbers. It strikes me as rather odd because now the land is united, it doesn't mean fewer wars, what wars do happen are even more brutal than in the past because unlike before conquest, when a war happens, all the regions get involved. Meaning more combatants, more people on the losing side, more "volunteers" to be after peace.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Now you are just bogging down the conversation by serving your "gator meat" and starting down the futile route. All I can say is that, to paraphrase another forum better, you are gonna hate TWOW!

Why should I hate a book I'm waiting rather eagerly to read?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

On dwindling numbers. It strikes me as rather odd because now the land is united, it doesn't mean fewer wars, what wars do happen are even more brutal than in the past because unlike before conquest, when a war happens, all the regions get involved. Meaning more combatants, more people on the losing side, more "volunteers" to be after peace.

As I said, young men have different things to do. Better career paths. Better ways to make a name of themselves or earn a living. There are many young men around who could become Catholic priests or join a religious order in our days, too? Are you seriously considering such a career path? Most likely not.

It is basically the same with the Night's Watch. The Watch is seen as a thing of the past, as something irrelevant and pathetic you only use to get rid of criminals.

Not to mention that the peace and prosperity during the Targaryen era would also have given a lot of people many new opportunities. Just look how quickly King's Landing grew, becoming the largest city in the Realm.

[Corvo the Crow]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that the peace and prosperity during the Targaryen era would also have given a lot of people many new opportunities. Just look how quickly King's Landing grew, becoming the largest city in the Realm.

Peace and Prosperity? The realm is more prosperous perhaps but definitely not peaceful. Quite the opposite I think. Before the conquest wars happened, true but it was between two kingdoms with sometimes a third also joining in. Now with a united realm in every war almost all the regions join and wars aren't far in between either. This gives many more people to get rid of after the wars yet we don't see anyone sent to watch after the Wall, with the exception of Kings Landing defenders. I agree with the rest of what you say though.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Peace and Prosperity? The realm is more prosperous perhaps but definitely not peaceful. Quite the opposite I think. Before the conquest wars happened, true but it was between two kingdoms with sometimes a third also joining in. Now with a united realm in every war almost all the regions join and wars aren't far in between either. This gives many more people to get rid of after the wars yet we don't see anyone sent to watch after the Wall, with the exception of Kings Landing defenders. I agree with the rest of what you say though.

The only full-scale war after the Conquest was the Dance. And even that one wasn't fought in Dorne, the North, or the Vale (as far as we know).

There were later regional conflicts but even things like Robert's Rebellion, the Greyjoy Rebellion, or the Blackfyre Rebellions weren't all that major affairs.

And note that there were the Hundreds Kingdoms once, before there were the Seven Kingdoms. And that the Seven Kingdoms had many border regions which should have been routinely burned and destroyed during all those constant wars between those kingdoms. Or think of what the Ironborn would have done continuously during so-called peacetimes. 

Even the War of the Five Kings is as of yet an affair that only affected parts of the Realm. The Riverlands are mostly in ruins, but the Vale and Dorne are perfectly fine. The West, the North, Reach, the Crownlands, and the Stormlands suffered milder destruction.

But the reason people don't join the Watch is because they don't want to. Convincing criminals or captured foes to take the black isn't the right way.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They were founded by losers and they are still sourcing some men from Westeros but they aren't all strictly Westerosi or descendants of Westerosi. Their summer islander bowmen are proof of it.

Sure, and the NW also wasn't sourced entirely from losers either.