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On who can marry among the lords...


Angel Eyes

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So who can a lord/lady marry, from the royal house to the Great Houses to bannermen? Tytos Lannister caused trouble when he betrothed his daughter Genna to Emmon Frey, the second son of a bannerman in a different kingdom.

Meanwhile, Baelor Breakspear marries Jena Dondarrion.

If Robert's Rebellion hadn't happened, could Eddard Stark, a second son of a Lord Paramount, marry Ashara Dayne?

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The problems with the Genna match were many ... but the main was that Emmon was no.4 or no.5 in line for The Twins. And likely to move down the line as those up the chain had children.

Had Emmon been the Heir (or Heir's Heir) than the match would not had been controversial. It gave an alliance to one of the more powerful Houses in a neighbouring realm.

As to Eddard and Ashara - IMO her value on the marriage market was higher than his. The groom - and their children - gets an alliance with Starfall.

Once Brandon breeds Ned is surplus to requeriments. A waste of a god marriage from the Dayne's viewpoint. Ashara should marry a local boy (a heir, naturaly).

 

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42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So who can a lord/lady marry, from the royal house to the Great Houses to bannermen? Tytos Lannister caused trouble when he betrothed his daughter Genna to Emmon Frey, the second son of a bannerman in a different kingdom.

The only "trouble" he caused was Tywin's pride getting wounded. Which is the default state of Tywin's pride no matter what.

42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Meanwhile, Baelor Breakspear marries Jena Dondarrion.

If Robert's Rebellion hadn't happened, could Eddard Stark, a second son of a Lord Paramount, marry Ashara Dayne?

I see no reason why not.

8 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

As to Eddard and Ashara - IMO her value on the marriage market was higher than his. The groom - and their children - gets an alliance with Starfall.

And Starfall is more valuable than Winterfell why?

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5 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And Starfall is more valuable than Winterfell why?

He is a second son and inherits one sweet nothing.

Marrying Ashara to a Heir is more beneficial for the Dayne's than to a 2nd son. They get a direct tie with the next Lord of something, and Ashara's son, as next Lord is cousin to the next Lord Dayne. 

Her child with Ned the 2nd son is a nobody really ...

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Status wise they are both acceptable to each other even if Ned becomes heir.

Politically there could have been better matches.  Ryswell might get their nose out of joint but so would every other house should the Starks choose them.

Also Ned has a spare so it would not be a massive issue, obviously events take over and Ned needs a political match, a noble house in Dorne who happens to have a son in the KG would not come near the whole of the Riverlands.

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8 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

He is a second son and inherits one sweet nothing.

Marrying Ashara to a Heir is more beneficial for the Dayne's than to a 2nd son. They get a direct tie with the next Lord of something, and Ashara's son, as next Lord is cousin to the next Lord Dayne. 

Her child with Ned the 2nd son is a nobody really ...

And how isn't Ashara just as "nobody really", only less valuable (because she's nobody of Starfall, instead of nobody of Winterfell) in this arithmetic?

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45 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The only "trouble" he caused was Tywin's pride getting wounded. Which is the default state of Tywin's pride no matter what.

I see no reason why not.

And Starfall is more valuable than Winterfell why?

Anyone remember Roger Reyne storming out?

 

27 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And how isn't Ashara just as "nobody really", only less valuable (because she's nobody of Starfall, instead of nobody of Winterfell) in this arithmetic?

Because one house is a Lord Paramount?

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34 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

He is a second son and inherits one sweet nothing.

Marrying Ashara to a Heir is more beneficial for the Dayne's than to a 2nd son. They get a direct tie with the next Lord of something, and Ashara's son, as next Lord is cousin to the next Lord Dayne. 

Her child with Ned the 2nd son is a nobody really ...

Ned and Ashara's children will be cousins of Lord of Winterfell. Being related to a minor lord from your own region vs being related to a Great House. I don't know why you consider Starfall bigger power than Winterfell but you do you.

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12 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Ned and Ashara's children will be cousins of Lord of Winterfell. Being related to a minor lord from your own region vs being related to a Great House. I don't know why you consider Starfall bigger power than Winterfell but you do you.

How powerful are the Daynes?

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I suspect it’s more than usual just for the sake of dramatic tension, but there’s quite a list of eldest sons in the series which have come to naught which in turn elevates second, third...sons (& some daughters, too!) When the 7 Kingdoms were constantly at war with each other, I imagine they had enough of a first son death-rate to not take the other sons’ marriages lightly.

Quentyn Martell— toast

Brandon Stark—killed

Jaime Lannister—drafted into the KG

Jon Arryn lost two heirs before being forced to marry.

Domeric Bolton died.

Robb died.

Bran and Rickon are believed dead.

Jon is maybe/maybe not dead.

Robert Baratheon died without a legit heir.

Joffrey died.

Theon—well….

Rhaegar died.

Viserys died.

 

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8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I suspect it’s more than usual just for the sake of dramatic tension, but there’s quite a list of eldest sons in the series which have come to naught which in turn elevates second, third...sons (& some daughters, too!) When the 7 Kingdoms were constantly at war with each other, I imagine they had enough of a first son death-rate to not take the other sons’ marriages lightly.

 

Quentyn Martell— toast

 

Brandon Stark—killed

 

Jaime Lannister—drafted into the KG

 

Jon Arryn lost two heirs before being forced to marry.

 

Domeric Bolton died.

 

Robb died.

 

Bran and Rickon are believed dead.

 

Jon is maybe/maybe not dead.

 

Robert Baratheon died without a legit heir.

 

Joffrey died.

 

Theon—well….

 

Rhaegar died.

 

Viserys died.

 

 

 

Don't forget Rodrik and Maron Greyjoy.

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Don't forget Rodrik and Maron Greyjoy.

There's a lot more. I just gave up after a certain point.

IIRC, there were several before Egg became king. Tytos Lannister was also a younger son.

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We don't have any sort of hard and fast rules, here; it's mostly extrapolation and guesswork.

As TMIFairy said, the main issue with Genna/Emmon is that he's a younger son, while she's the only daughter of the Lord of Casterly Rock. She could have made a much better match, either with another paramount family or with the heir of a lesser house. If Emmon had been the heir it would have been a lot more acceptable, although there might still be some sneering at the Freys being a 'recently' noble house. And a marriage between a Frey and a Lannister distant cousin would have been unremarkable.

In the case of Ned/Ashara, it wouldn't have been an improper match. Both houses are very old and prestigious, and the Starks are Lords of the North, so even a younger son is a reasonable catch. They could expect to be well supported at Winterfell or given another Northern castle. However, pragmatically, the Daynes may not have seen all that much value in having a marriage ally living that far away, and might have gone for a less prestigious but more immediately useful alliance with a nearby family. Not knowing anything about the Lord/Lady Dayne who was ruling at the time, we can't say what they would have chosen.

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11 minutes ago, Lady Lia said:

We don't have any sort of hard and fast rules, here; it's mostly extrapolation and guesswork.

As TMIFairy said, the main issue with Genna/Emmon is that he's a younger son, while she's the only daughter of the Lord of Casterly Rock. She could have made a much better match, either with another paramount family or with the heir of a lesser house. If Emmon had been the heir it would have been a lot more acceptable, although there might still be some sneering at the Freys being a 'recently' noble house. And a marriage between a Frey and a Lannister distant cousin would have been unremarkable.

In the case of Ned/Ashara, it wouldn't have been an improper match. Both houses are very old and prestigious, and the Starks are Lords of the North, so even a younger son is a reasonable catch. They could expect to be well supported at Winterfell or given another Northern castle. However, pragmatically, the Daynes may not have seen all that much value in having a marriage ally living that far away, and might have gone for a less prestigious but more immediately useful alliance with a nearby family. Not knowing anything about the Lord/Lady Dayne who was ruling at the time, we can't say what they would have chosen.

Imagine if Genna married the Blackfish. But hey, we wouldn't have the Blackfish, would we?

Do the Starks have other castles that they could give to younger sons?

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Ideally a marriage to a Martell would be great but Doran looked to Essos and I don't think Oberyn wanted marriage. Due to Starfall's location  a marriage to a Marcher Lord would be beneficial for the Dayne's of Starfall in case the creepy Dayne's of High Hermitage try making a move on Starfall.  Which is probably why people assumed Allyria  was a Dayne when she was referred to as Edric's Aunt. Having a Marcher Lord like Beric Dondarrion close by as an ally for Edric Dayne would be a good deterrent to keep the Darkstar away.

Ironically enough with the Selmys being Marcher Lords too Barristan could have had a shot with Ashara. Had he not joined the KG and became a rich and famous Tourney Knight.

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11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Do the Starks have other castles that they could give to younger sons?

I would think that they don't have castles they are willing to give away, but might be willing to part with some nice land upon which to build a keep for a younger son if needs be.

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On 11/25/2017 at 6:18 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ideally a marriage to a Martell would be great but Doran looked to Essos and I don't think Oberyn wanted marriage. Due to Starfall's location  a marriage to a Marcher Lord would be beneficial for the Dayne's of Starfall in case the creepy Dayne's of High Hermitage try making a move on Starfall.  Which is probably why people assumed Allyria  was a Dayne when she was referred to as Edric's Aunt. Having a Marcher Lord like Beric Dondarrion close by as an ally for Edric Dayne would be a good deterrent to keep the Darkstar away.

Ironically enough with the Selmys being Marcher Lords too Barristan could have had a shot with Ashara. Had he not joined the KG and became a rich and famous Tourney Knight.

You know, if Ned had suggested a betrothal between any one of his three elder children, that would be interesting, like Robb and Arianne, Sansa and Quentyn, or Arya and Trystane. 

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