Octarchy of Old Ghis

[AlaskanSandman]

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"All kneel for His Magnificence Hizdahr zo Loraq, Fourteenth of That Ancient Name, King of Meereen, Scion of Ghis, Octarch of the Old Empire, Master of the Skahazadhan, Consort to Dragons and Blood of the Harpy," the herald shouted. Brazen Beasts swung out amongst the pillars to form a line, then began a slow advance in lockstep, ushering the petitioners from the hall.

A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

 

Octarch of the Old Empire of Ghis. 

Quote

 

octarchy. plural -es. 1 : a government by eight persons. 2 : a confederacy of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms considered as having eight rulers — compare heptarchy.

 

octarch

ADJECTIVE

Botany 

Relating to, characterized by, or designating a vascular bundle having eight strands of xylem arising from eight distinct points of origin.

 

 

So i thought this was very interesting, especially given the concept of the Seven. 

Could there be one removed? Is there something else going on with the gods? 

Any thoughts into this? 8 distinct points of origin? Even thoughts into the political side of this. Just curious any other thoughts.

[direpupy]

I have wondered about this myself, at first i thought it may have been the number of city's in the old empire, but currently we know of 12 city's. Then i thought of maybe it being the number of surviving city's, but those are less then 8. Then i thought of regions, but did not get any further then 6 there.

Basically thats where i ran out of idea's so i hope others have some on this.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

It could just be a hangover from a distant past.

 

 "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the SevenKingdoms and Protector of the Realm"

Now can you name me the seven Kingdoms 300 years after it be becomes 1?  Dorne has been added to it already, let's say during the battle for dawn the 7 kingdoms are obliterated.  Dany comes and saves the day, she rebuilds from the ashes with new migrants from Essos.

She keeps the style 7 kingdoms as do her decendants, even though the kingdom beyond the wall is now included.

Now fast forward a 1,000 years and explain to an outsider why 7 kingdoms.

 

Of course there could be a modern relevance to octarch but to style one self 1/8th of the government is strange in of itself, unless it is a historic title.

[sweetsunray]

The noble families tend to have a certain color range that they wear. Hizdar's kin for example wears a range of purple, and the pyramid from which Dany rules has purple marble and purple pillars. Other families and pyramids have a different color. The color theme is also featured in the arena for the benches. Now, if noble families and pyramids refer to a certain color, then likely there are at least 7 noble families and pyramids?

So, just as the Andal 7, the Ghiscari certailnly use the 7 colors of the rainbow as well. There are 2 "colors" that are not with those 7: white and black. If we consider color as "light" diffracted by a crystal say, then the 7 rainbow colors combine together as "white light", and thus the 8th color/family would be white. If we consider color from a pigmentation angle, then mixing all the colors combines into black.

Anyway, I'd say the Octarch is based on 8 families and pyramids, and thus 7 + 1 colors.

[Jon Fossoway]

Always thought it was just a title based on a loose theme harbored by George.

Would be cool that there be some backstory he kept to himself though.

[Bobity.]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Octarch of the Old Empire of Ghis. 

Quote

octarchy. plural -es. 1 : a government by eight persons

Interesting catch!!  I agree with @elder brother jonothor dar that it is possibly from the distant past. While I don't see any relation to the seven, or have an opinion on the origins of 8, it does point to an ancient form of representative based government, vs the more current monarchy based dictatorship included within the title.

I personally believe that Valyria was a colony of the GEOTD, and emerged as a force after the wars with Old Ghis in the power vacuum of the post Long Night.  However, by that logic Old Ghis would have also been a culture before the Long Night and was potentially influenced by the GEOTD.  If Old Ghis was governed by a 8 member council, them the ancient democratic traditions of the Valyrian Freehold may have been a norm for the region prior to the Long Night.

[The hairy bear]

I don't see why there should be any connection between the number of Andal gods and the Ghiscari number of rulers.

9 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Of course there could be a modern relevance to octarch but to style one self 1/8th of the government is strange in of itself, unless it is a historic title.

Well, there's the historical precedence of the Roman tetrarchy, where each of the four co-rulers of the empire famously named themselves tetrarchs. It's not that strange

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyway, I'd say the Octarch is based on 8 families and pyramids, and thus 7 + 1 colors.

 

Newton's division of the light specter in 7 colors is completely arbitrary. He could have divided in 3, 4, 9 or 17 colors as he preferred. He choose 7 for its connection to God.

So... there's no basis to assume that in Westeros they divide the light in seven colors, and that they assign each color to a particular god.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyway, I'd say the Octarch is based on 8 families and pyramids, and thus 7 + 1 colors.

I tend to think this is the closest to possible. And, I hate to keep doing this, however, the main series has been picked to death, but George wrote a Dany heavy prototype story called The Glass Flower and the main character, Cyrain of Ash, is in her obsidian fortress and she is the “leader” of her seven “apostles”. When they go to play the “game of mind”, there are seats at the artifact for eight players (three prizes, three players, and Cyrain). Anyway, I think this is another example of how George loves his own themes and this is how he translated this idea from TGF to ASOIAF. 

Or not. 

[direpupy]

50 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Well, there's the historical precedence of the Roman tetrarchy, where each of the four co-rulers of the empire famously named themselves tetrarchs. It's not that strange

Octarch does seem reminisent of tetrarch.

There is also the herodian tetrarchy which is the division of the kingdom of Herod the Great between his sons who used tetrarch as there title.

It was also a Greek and a Macedonian Military rank in the Greek city states it was the rank of a cavalry commander in the Macedonian army it was a man leading four files of men in a falanx.

So it may actually be a military rank.

[sweetsunray]

55 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Newton's division of the light specter in 7 colors is completely arbitrary. He could have divided in 3, 4, 9 or 17 colors as he preferred. He choose 7 for its connection to God.

So... there's no basis to assume that in Westeros they divide the light in seven colors, and that they assign each color to a particular god.

Correct that the "7" colors IRL is an agreement, and it could be more using hues or less...And George can choose to adopt and apply Newton's 7 colors. Something George in fact did when he related 7 colors to 7 archetypes and a crystal is a symbol "crown" of the Faith.

A similar color scheme is used in Mereen. I don't think that this means that Ghiscari are necessarily the originators of the Andal faith. Instead I guess Ghiscari and Andals both noticed rainbows and how certain pisms and pyramidic objects could scatter light into rainbow colors. Maybe the Ghiscari consider the hue between blue-green (what we in Dutch refer to as "apple-blue-sea-green") as an 8th color, similar to how we consider the hue between yellow and red "orange".

But since noble families are tied to a certain pyramid and certain color, and George already used 7 colors in another culture, it seems a reasonable answer that octarchs have to do with the number of noble families in Mereen.

And that Newton could have decided on 6 or 9 colors doesn't change the fact that George used the established "7 colors" in two Planetos cultures.

[Lollygag]

In an everyday sense, the 8th day is the start of a new week as there are 7 days in a week. 7 is seen as being connected to nature, to order, to well-worn patterns. So 8 might be exceeding or surpassing nature and the established order to some degree and in some way.

Westeros mostly keeps the the 7. They have traditions that haven't varied over thousands of years. They have their patterns, habits, sense or order, etc. If 8 is surpassing the established nature, perhaps this says something about a culture which embraces 8?

EDIT: The Andal gods are everyday types: mother, father, smith, etc. as opposed to some of the more colorful gods of the other religions. That we have a maiden, mother, and crone further reinforces their prioritization of the natural order and the cycle of life.

http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/8.html

The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 8

The number 8 in the Bible represents a new beginning, meaning a new order or creation, and man's true 'born again' event when he is resurrected from the dead into eternal life.

Like the Old Testament Passover lamb, Jesus was selected as the Lamb to take away man's sins on the Hebrew day of Nisan 10 (April 1, 30 A.D. - John 12: 28 - 29). He was crucified on Nisan 14 (Wednesday, April 5 in 30 A.D.). His resurrection occurred, exactly as he stated, three days and three nights after he was buried, which was at the end of the weekly Sabbath day that fell on Nisan 17 (seventeen symbolizes victory). Nisan 17 was also the eighth day, counting inclusively, from the time Christ was selected as man's sacrificial Lamb. All this bears record of Jesus' perfect sacrifice and His complete victory over death.

Boys were to be circumcised on the 8th day. The number 8 symbolizes circumcision of the heart through Christ and the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Romans 2:28 - 29, Colossians 2:11 - 13). Those in Christ are becoming a new creation, with godly character being created by the power of God's Spirit (2Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:10; 4:23 - 24).

After the 7 weeks of the spring harvest, the next day, the 50th day, is Pentecost. This day is also the eighth day of the seventh week. This 8th and 50th day combination pictures the first resurrection when the saints will be raised from the dead and made immortal (1Corinthians 15:20 - 23, John 3:3 - 12, Revelation 20:4 - 6). After the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles there is an 8th day, called the Last Great Day.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Correct that the "7" colors IRL is an agreement, and it could be more using hues or less...And George can choose to adopt and apply Newton's 7 colors. Something George in fact did when he related 7 colors to 7 archetypes and a crystal is a symbol "crown" of the Faith.

A similar color scheme is used in Mereen. I don't think that this means that Ghiscari are necessarily the originators of the Andal faith. Instead I guess Ghiscari and Andals both noticed rainbows and how certain pisms and pyramidic objects could scatter light into rainbow colors. Maybe the Ghiscari consider the hue between blue-green (what we in Dutch refer to as "apple-blue-sea-green") as an 8th color, similar to how we consider the hue between yellow and red "orange".

But since noble families are tied to a certain pyramid and certain color, and George already used 7 colors in another culture, it seems a reasonable answer that octarchs have to do with the number of noble families in Mereen.

And that Newton could have decided on 6 or 9 colors doesn't change the fact that George used the established "7 colors" in two Planetos cultures.

Agreed, George is American and would likely have gone with the American standard or Newton. 

As far as Ghis and the Andals. Dont forget people. The Grasslands section of TWOIAF list the Andals as coming from the grasslands about the silver sea, same as the Ghiscari. Hugor=Huzhor=Azor.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Well, there's the historical precedence of the Roman tetrarchy, where each of the four co-rulers of the empire famously named themselves tetrarchs. It's not that strange

As well as the Triumvirate, but the term Caesar is the preferred by most people.  Why choose a lesser title when you can be Emperor?

The only reason to share a title is if you have to share power, now does it mean 1/8th of Meereen or Ghis.

It seems to imply Ghis, but regardless it's an odd choice of title, it could be to placate the other factions of old Ghis and prepare the way for reconciliation.  Dany after all only claims the title Queen of Meereen, not Slaver Bay, Hizdahrcould be affirming the new world order will respect the old ways/order outside of Meereen.

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Agreed, George is American and would likely have gone with the American standard or Newton. 

As far as Ghis and the Andals. Dont forget people. The Grasslands section of TWOIAF list the Andals as coming from the grasslands about the silver sea, same as the Ghiscari. Hugor=Huzhor=Azor.

Yup, the Grasslands are depicted as the "origin" location of pretty much every society of Planetos, including possibly the First Men.

Not sure whether Huzhor is indeed Hugor, let alone Azor... certainly not if we consider the thousand of years in between those cultures. 

Extra:

Amai is actually a Dutch word, an expression that we use especially in Flanders comparable to people using "OMG!" or "wow!" or "amazing!". It's an expression that ethnically stems from the 100 year war, when English soldiers strayed into the Flemish region. Their "oh my!" was bastardized locally into the dialect word "amai!". George knows the ethnic RW  origin of "amai", because he attaches the correct meaning to Huzhor Amai: the Amazing. Huzhor is suspiciously phonetically close to the Dutch "Hoezee" (which is Dutch for Hurray).

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Correct that the "7" colors IRL is an agreement, and it could be more using hues or less...And George can choose to adopt and apply Newton's 7 colors. Something George in fact did when he related 7 colors to 7 archetypes and a crystal is a symbol "crown" of the Faith.

A similar color scheme is used in Mereen. I don't think that this means that Ghiscari are necessarily the originators of the Andal faith. Instead I guess Ghiscari and Andals both noticed rainbows and how certain pisms and pyramidic objects could scatter light into rainbow colors. Maybe the Ghiscari consider the hue between blue-green (what we in Dutch refer to as "apple-blue-sea-green") as an 8th color, similar to how we consider the hue between yellow and red "orange".

But since noble families are tied to a certain pyramid and certain color, and George already used 7 colors in another culture, it seems a reasonable answer that octarchs have to do with the number of noble families in Mereen.

And that Newton could have decided on 6 or 9 colors doesn't change the fact that George used the established "7 colors" in two Planetos cultures.

This really brings to mind a parallel between Aegon the Conqueror and how he has to negotiate and make certain concessions with the Faith/7. The same story elements, just mixed up a little.

I agree that this does not mean that the Ghiscari are necessarily the originators of the Andal faith.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

In an everyday sense, the 8th day is the start of a new week as there are 7 days in a week. 7 is seen as being connected to nature, to order, to well-worn patterns. So 8 might be exceeding or surpassing nature and the established order to some degree and in some way.

Westeros mostly keeps the the 7. They have traditions that haven't varied over thousands of years. They have their patterns, habits, sense or order, etc. If 8 is surpassing the established nature, perhaps this says something about a culture which embraces 8?

EDIT: The Andal gods are everyday types: mother, father, smith, etc. as opposed to some of the more colorful gods of the other religions. That we have a maiden, mother, and crone further reinforces their prioritization of the natural order and the cycle of life.

http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/8.html

The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 8

The number 8 in the Bible represents a new beginning, meaning a new order or creation, and man's true 'born again' event when he is resurrected from the dead into eternal life.

Like the Old Testament Passover lamb, Jesus was selected as the Lamb to take away man's sins on the Hebrew day of Nisan 10 (April 1, 30 A.D. - John 12: 28 - 29). He was crucified on Nisan 14 (Wednesday, April 5 in 30 A.D.). His resurrection occurred, exactly as he stated, three days and three nights after he was buried, which was at the end of the weekly Sabbath day that fell on Nisan 17 (seventeen symbolizes victory). Nisan 17 was also the eighth day, counting inclusively, from the time Christ was selected as man's sacrificial Lamb. All this bears record of Jesus' perfect sacrifice and His complete victory over death.

Boys were to be circumcised on the 8th day. The number 8 symbolizes circumcision of the heart through Christ and the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Romans 2:28 - 29, Colossians 2:11 - 13). Those in Christ are becoming a new creation, with godly character being created by the power of God's Spirit (2Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:10; 4:23 - 24).

After the 7 weeks of the spring harvest, the next day, the 50th day, is Pentecost. This day is also the eighth day of the seventh week. This 8th and 50th day combination pictures the first resurrection when the saints will be raised from the dead and made immortal (1Corinthians 15:20 - 23, John 3:3 - 12, Revelation 20:4 - 6). After the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles there is an 8th day, called the Last Great Day.

 

Hmmm. Interesting find. The proto-Dany story I mentioned earlier also has the woman-child, Cyrain of Ash, introduce herself as, "And I'm Jesus Christ. Would you care to meet my Apostles?" She is being very snarky towards the person she is talking to in this scene, as in the entire story.

[Lollygag]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmmm. Interesting find. The proto-Dany story I mentioned earlier also has the woman-child, Cyrain of Ash, introduce herself as, "And I'm Jesus Christ. Would you care to meet my Apostles?" She is being very snarky towards the person she is talking to in this scene, as in the entire story.

Is she presenting herself as an apocalyptic second-coming new-world order Jesus? Some of the above sounds vaguely apocalyptic.

[The Fattest Leech]

55 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Is she presenting herself as an apocalyptic second-coming new-world order Jesus? Some of the above sounds vaguely apocalyptic.

Mmmm, not truly apocalyptic for the entirety of the living, but she is (basically) a body snatcher that is using this "artifact" table and chairs as a way to take you into another realm to play the "game of mind" where you win another body as the prize. The story is definitely about the concept of second-lifeing and brings up the question of what the soul is. Cyrain is actually a 200(?) year old- fifty year old woman that has been living in a young girl's body. A new cyborg arrives to her place to play the game and she is suspicious of him, sets her apostles to spy on him to discover what they can about him, because she wants to take over his body. It is somewhat of a mix of the Meereenese knot and the House of the Undying, with a lot of mind-trippiness .

Adding: there is a bit of the lessons/abominations Varamyr warns about in this story as well.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, the Grasslands are depicted as the "origin" location of pretty much every society of Planetos, including possibly the First Men.

Not sure whether Huzhor is indeed Hugor, let alone Azor... certainly not if we consider the thousand of years in between those cultures. 

Extra:

Amai is actually a Dutch word, an expression that we use especially in Flanders comparable to people using "OMG!" or "wow!" or "amazing!". It's an expression that ethnically stems from the 100 year war, when English soldiers strayed into the Flemish region. Their "oh my!" was bastardized locally into the dialect word "amai!". George knows the ethnic RW  origin of "amai", because he attaches the correct meaning to Huzhor Amai: the Amazing. Huzhor is suspiciously phonetically close to the Dutch "Hoezee" (which is Dutch for Hurray).

I would ignore those time datings for them. The Sarnori rose up after the long Night and so did the Andals. Azor-Huzhor-Hugor are the same. Hugors Hill was mother mountain in the Silver Sea. Like an island, like, the God's Eye. 

And yes, im aware  the name i already figured isn't his real name, just like Grazdan the Great. It's likely just a title.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This really brings to mind a parallel between Aegon the Conqueror and how he has to negotiate and make certain concessions with the Faith/7. The same story elements, just mixed up a little.

I agree that this does not mean that the Ghiscari are necessarily the originators of the Andal faith.

No no, they would predate the Andals. Remember, the Ghiscari were rising while the rest of the world was in a long night and regression. Ghis and the Empire of the Dawn are older than the Long Night. 

Likely, the 8 is a nod to the Gem Stone Emperors.