manchester_babe

Who killed Joffrey?

26 posts in this topic

I like the theory about Littlefinger being the sole perpetrator, having ordered the serving of a poisoned pie to Tyrion. The plan backfired when Joffrey ate the pie instead. The motive, Tyrion being a threat to Littlefingers further plans and aspirations. Tyrion being an intellectual threat as well as causing his bargaining chip for marriage, Sansa Stark to become unusable. The theory was quite well laid out by Preston Jacobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkIczwc7Hz8

 

Edited by Dimmu Borgir

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On 11/27/2017 at 7:02 PM, manchester_babe said:

Who killed Joffrey?

Have you read the book to the end? It's Olenna, probably with the help of some other Tyrells (not sure which ones), in collusion with Littlefinger. 

 

Anything else (like the post above line) is a total crackpot.

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On 09/12/2017 at 4:02 PM, Annara Snow said:

Have you read the book to the end? It's Olenna, probably with the help of some other Tyrells (not sure which ones), in collusion with Littlefinger. 

 

Anything else (like the post above line) is a total crackpot.

Pretty much, it goes in hand with her asking Sansa about Joffrey's character, after that she knew it was probably only a matter of time before he got bored with Margaery as he did with Sansa

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I think Margaery was the one who actually placed the poison in the chalice. She must have been in on it because Olenna wouldn't take the risk that her grand-daughter accidentally drank the poison. It was in the wedding chalice both Joff and Margaery drank from all evening.

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5 hours ago, Zapho said:

I think Margaery was the one who actually placed the poison in the chalice. She must have been in on it because Olenna wouldn't take the risk that her grand-daughter accidentally drank the poison. It was in the wedding chalice both Joff and Margaery drank from all evening.

There's been some debate in the fandom as to who of the Tyrells was in on it and participated in it. Olenna was obviously masterminding it, Margaery had to be in it as she could have otherwise drank the poison, and there's disagreement about Garlan. Some people think he wasn't on it, others argue that he was and that he was the one who put the poison in the chalice, as he was best positioned to do so.

Mace presumably didn't know, as it was Olenna's plan and she was going behind his back so he couldn't overrule her, and Loras probably didn't know as he didn't need to know.

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 1:02 PM, manchester_babe said:

Who killed Joffrey?

Lady Olenna put the poison in the pie meant for Tyrion. Joffrey ate it and died.

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27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lady Olenna put the poison in the pie meant for Tyrion. Joffrey ate it and died.

Poison was in the wine, not in the pie. The pie was just a red herring, so people would think he choked on it.

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18 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Poison was in the wine, not in the pie. The pie was just a red herring, so people would think he choked on it.

I suppose that makes sense. When people reread the books too many times, that which would have been obvious initially from the natural flow of the books sort of goes out the window.

Edited by Dimmu Borgir

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On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 3:06 PM, Annara Snow said:

Poison was in the wine, not in the pie. The pie was just a red herring, so people would think he choked on it.

No, the wine is the red herring. The timelines between the two poisonings don't match up, the logistics of getting Tyrion to serve the wine and then Joff to place the chalice in the only spot where it can be poisoned are impossible to predict, and the motivations for the principal plotters are all wrong.

6 hours ago, Dimmu Borgir said:

I suppose that makes sense. When people reread the books too many times, that which would have been obvious initially from the natural flow of the books sort of goes out the window.

Are you saying that on the initial read it is obvious that it was the pie? Because hardly anybody seems to reach that conclusion first, both readers and characters.

It's only after several rereads and a good, hard look at the facts that the wine goes out the window.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Are you saying that on the initial read it is obvious that it was the pie? Because hardly anybody seems to reach that conclusion first, both readers and characters.

It's only after several rereads and a good, hard look at the facts that the wine goes out the window.

No, I actually meant the opposite. Reading it initially and linearly made me believe the poison was in the wine. However, I watched the show first and there we are led to believe just that. Shortly after the poisoning Littlefinger impled to Sansa that someone (whom Sansa concludes to be Olenna) retrieved the poison from her hair net.

When I first read this, I assumed that the sequence of events would turn out to be the same as in the show; Olenna poured poison into Joffreys chalice. I felt no reason to doubt Littlefinger's explanation then and there.

Edited by Dimmu Borgir

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The pie was the red herring for the characters, not for the readers. The Tyrells wanted people to think Joffrwy choked on the pie. That was Plan A. (GRRM based the Purple Wedding on the death of Eustace of Boulogne, son of king Stephen, who choked at a feast and was rumored to be poisoned.) If that doesn't work, Plan B was to blame it on Sansa (therefore the hairnet with poison in it) and Tyrion - which waa always Littlefinger's preferred outcome (he wanted Tyrion out of the way and Sansa dependent on him, and what better way to achieve that than by having her accused of regicide).

 

The readers know (or should know) it was the wine. It's really straightforward and obvious. People just like to overthink things, even when it doesn't make sense. Like, if the pie was poisoned, who poisoned it? The cook?.Did they want to kill everyone? Really?

Edited by Annara Snow

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36 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

The pie was the red herring for the characters, not for the readers. The Tyrells wanted people to think Joffrwy choked on the pie. That was Plan A. (GRRM based the Purple Wedding on the death of Eustace of Boulogne, son of king Stephen, who choked at a feast and was rumored to be poisoned.) If that doesn't work, Plan B was to blame it on Sansa (therefore the purple necklace with poison in it) and Tyrion - which waa always Littlefinger's preferred outcome (he wanted Tyrion out of the way and Sansa dependent on him, and what better way to achieve that than by having her accused of regicide).

 

The readers know (or should know) it was the wine. It's really straightforward and obvious. People just like to overthink things, even when it doesn't make sense. Like, if the pie was poisoned, who poisoned it? The cook?.Did they want to kill everyone? Really?

watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkIczwc7Hz8

It is far from obvious that the poison is in the wine. If you take into account these facts:

Littlefinger went to highgarden to praise joffrei so why would olenna ask for littlefingers help to poison joffrei?

why would olenna even need littlefingers help?

why would olena give the poison to dantos to give to sansa and hope she wears it so that she can take it from sansa's hair and take it with her into her seat? That is a totally useless and very dangerous process! a lot of things could have gone wrong.

Stannis maester that was poisoned had an immediate reaction when poisoned with the same poison. however joffrei was able to talk and eat pie. His immediate reaction was after eating pie.

The only proof we have of olenna's involvement comes from sansa saying olena touched her hair. Littlefinger only tells his story after sansa saying olenna's name.

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On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:47 PM, Annara Snow said:

The pie was the red herring for the characters, not for the readers. The Tyrells wanted people to think Joffrwy choked on the pie. That was Plan A. (GRRM based the Purple Wedding on the death of Eustace of Boulogne, son of king Stephen, who choked at a feast and was rumored to be poisoned.) If that doesn't work, Plan B was to blame it on Sansa (therefore the hairnet with poison in it) and Tyrion - which waa always Littlefinger's preferred outcome (he wanted Tyrion out of the way and Sansa dependent on him, and what better way to achieve that than by having her accused of regicide).

 

The readers know (or should know) it was the wine. It's really straightforward and obvious. People just like to overthink things, even when it doesn't make sense. Like, if the pie was poisoned, who poisoned it? The cook?.Did they want to kill everyone? Really?

How could that have possibly been Plan A? They are already counting on the unlikely and completely unpredictable sequence of events that led to Tyrion handling the chalice and pouring the wine and then Joffrey placing the chalice directly in front of the only possible poisoner, Garlan, and then walking away -- I mean, literally, a foot to the left or a foot to the right and the whole plan would have been scotched -- and now you're saying they then expected Joffrey to bound over and eat Tyrion's pie? Did they expect Joffrey to be eating his own pie? Then the fact that the chalice is now next to Garlan, about as far away from Joffrey's pie as you can get, should have prevent them from dropping the poison then and there. And for that matter, if the intent was to make people believe Joffrey simply choked, then why not put it in his pie?

How is the hairnet supposed to implicate Sansa? First of all, this would assume that Lady O is unaware that Littlefinger is going to use the distraction to cover Sansa's escape, which would give her no plausible reason to trust the man who lied to her in the first place and who now says he has a plan to fix it all -- a plan that has him sitting safe and sound on his boat in the bay while she and her entire family save one are in the Red Keep surrounded by Lannister guards. Even with the knowledge of Sansa's escape, she still has absolutely no reason at all to trust LF with such a cockamamie scheme.

Olenna herself poisoned the pie. And I hope you realize I am talking about Tyrion's pie, not the big pie with the pigeons in it. Tyrion's pie, meant for Tyrion and Tyrion alone. We can plainly see that Lady O is on her feet and somewhere very close to Tyrion just before the pie ceremony begins. We can also see that the individual pies are served literally seconds after the ceremony concludes, which means they too must be very close and most likely somewhere behind the head table. So now we have poisoner and target right there, out of sight, within easy reach of a short woman like Lady O -- at best,  the pie is already in the hands of the servant, which means she has to make sure that only one pair of eyes is looking up at the pigeons for the split second it takes to tuck the crystal into the filling. Compare that to reaching up to the lip of a three-foot challenge when there are literally hundreds of pairs of eyes all facing in your direction. And more than likely, Lady O arranged the entire pie-serving sequence to begin with, so she knows exactly which pie is meant for Tyrion and she even has a high probability of knowing which portion will be his one and only bite: the pointed end, which is also the easiest to poison. Nobody else is involved, no loose tongues to spill the beans, no trusted servants: Lady O did the deed all by herself.

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

How could that have possibly been Plan A? They are already counting on the unlikely and completely unpredictable sequence of events that led to Tyrion handling the chalice and pouring the wine and then Joffrey placing the chalice directly in front of the only possible poisoner, Garlan, and then walking away -- I mean, literally, a foot to the left or a foot to the right and the whole plan would have been scotched -- and now you're saying they then expected Joffrey to bound over and eat Tyrion's pie? Did they expect Joffrey to be eating his own pie? Then the fact that the chalice is now next to Garlan, about as far away from Joffrey's pie as you can get, should have prevent them from dropping the poison then and there. And for that matter, if the intent was to make people believe Joffrey simply choked, then why not put it in his pie?

How is the hairnet supposed to implicate Sansa? First of all, this would assume that Lady O is unaware that Littlefinger is going to use the distraction to cover Sansa's escape, which would give her no plausible reason to trust the man who lied to her in the first place and who now says he has a plan to fix it all -- a plan that has him sitting safe and sound on his boat in the bay while she and her entire family save one are in the Red Keep surrounded by Lannister guards. Even with the knowledge of Sansa's escape, she still has absolutely no reason at all to trust LF with such a cockamamie scheme.

Olenna herself poisoned the pie. And I hope you realize I am talking about Tyrion's pie, not the big pie with the pigeons in it. Tyrion's pie, meant for Tyrion and Tyrion alone. We can plainly see that Lady O is on her feet and somewhere very close to Tyrion just before the pie ceremony begins. We can also see that the individual pies are served literally seconds after the ceremony concludes, which means they too must be very close and most likely somewhere behind the head table. So now we have poisoner and target right there, out of sight, within easy reach of a short woman like Lady O -- at best,  the pie is already in the hands of the servant, which means she has to make sure that only one pair of eyes is looking up at the pigeons for the split second it takes to tuck the crystal into the filling. Compare that to reaching up to the lip of a three-foot challenge when there are literally hundreds of pairs of eyes all facing in your direction. And more than likely, Lady O arranged the entire pie-serving sequence to begin with, so she knows exactly which pie is meant for Tyrion and she even has a high probability of knowing which portion will be his one and only bite: the pointed end, which is also the easiest to poison. Nobody else is involved, no loose tongues to spill the beans, no trusted servants: Lady O did the deed all by herself.

What are you on about? The pie was never poisoned, the idea was that people may believe Joffrey choked on it - Plan A - but if that doesn't work, the immediate alternative was plan B.  How would the hairnet implicate Sansa? Um, because she was wearing it, to the wedding, and everyone saw her wear it?

"Why not poison the pie"? How exactly do you imagine that to go? How do you slip liquid into a piece of pie without it being obvious?! It's not sipping it into a drink so it mixes with the wine. If they were to poison the pie, they'd have to poison the entire pie, while it's being made, and only the cook can do that. I don't think they had the royal cook in on their conspiracy.

Why the heck do you think Olenna should have cared if Littlefinger spirited Sansa away? They didn't give a damn about that. What's it to them?

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23 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

What are you on about? The pie was never poisoned, the idea was that people may believe Joffrey choked on it - Plan A - but if that doesn't work, the immediate alternative was plan B.  How would the hairnet implicate Sansa? Um, because she was wearing it, to the wedding, and everyone saw her wear it?

"Why not poison the pie"? How exactly do you imagine that to go? How do you slip liquid into a piece of pie without it being obvious?! It's not sipping it into a drink so it mixes with the wine. If they were to poison the pie, they'd have to poison the entire pie, while it's being made, and only the cook can do that. I don't think they had the royal cook in on their conspiracy.

Why the heck do you think Olenna should have cared if Littlefinger spirited Sansa away? They didn't give a damn about that. What's it to them?

Joffrey drinks the wine and nothing happens to him for at least five times longer than it took Cressen to start choking. That is Fact 1. Then he eats the pie and starts choking in seconds, just like Cressen. Fact 2. Logic, and physical science, therefore dictates that the poison was in the pie, not the wine.

How could Lady O and/or Littlefinger have planned for Joffrey to suddenly eat Tyrion's pie? This is a completely unpredictable act, so how could it be their "Plan A"? If they were expecting people to think the Joffrey was choking on his own pie, then the mere fact that the chalice is way over near Garlan and Tyrion while Joffrey's pie is way back at his place at the high table all but eliminates that possibility.

How could the hairnet implicate Sansa? Who is going to make the connection between a dead king on the floor and a tiny missing crystal in the hairnet on one of the guest's heads? The strangler is virtually unknown by anyone except a few maesters. Whoever makes that accusation will automatically draw suspicion to him/herself, not Sansa. Secondly, why on earth would Sansa need to wear the poison on her head for all to see if she is the poisoner? The only reason for her to do that is to make it possible for someone else to get the poison. So if, through some incredible circumstance, the hairnet does implicate Sansa, then the first thing Tywin is going to want to know is, "who was at your hair that day, my lady?" And before the hot poker gets within 10 feet of Sansa's pretty little eye, she's going to say, "Lady Olenna." So, no, the plan could not possibly have been to use the hairnet to implicate Sansa because that trail leads right back to Lady O.

You ask why Sansa's escape should matter to Lady O? Because the whole idea of implicating Sansa rests on the notion that Lady O expects Sansa to still be in the throneroom after the king is dead, and this is simply not possible. Without the poisoning to provide cover for Sansa's escape, Littlefinger has no plausible reason for sticking his neck out by murdering the king, and Lady O has no reason to trust him. Littlefinger, if you'll recall, was the one who convinced the Tyrells that, despite all the rumors about evil Joffrey, he is a perfectly fine young man who will make a great husband for Margy. Once the Tyrells agree to the match, of course, we are then expected to believe that LF approaches Lady O in private and says, "Guess what, I lied. Joffrey is an evil little psycho and Margaery will not survive even one night with him." So I ask you, once he admits to that lie, what makes you think Lady O is gullible enough to trust him now that he says, "I'm only doing this because I feel so guilty about it"? And she goes right on trusting this confirmed liar and double-dealer right up until the plan has her and nearly her entire family tasked with poisoning the king while surrounded by Lannister guards in the Red Keep, all while LF himself is safe and sound on his boat out in the bay ready to hightail it to Braavos at the first sign of trouble. Where in the text is the evidence that Lady O is this mind-bogglingly stupid?

How to poison the pie? You do realize, I hope, that the poison is not a liquid, it's a crystal? She holds it in her hand, and when the servant holding the pie looks up at the pigeons, she tucks it into the filling. It takes a split-second, and she only has to make sure one person, if that, is not watching her -- unlike the wine, which Garlan has to make sure not one of a thousand people facing his direction happens to catch his long arm-reach to the lip of a three-foot chalice.

What makes you think the poison has to be cooked in order to activate? It dissolves more slowing in a hot, moist pie filling than in wine, but that's enough. Remember, Joffrey takes a bite of the pie and what does he notice? "A bit dry though. Needs washing down." The pie is dry because the poison is absorbing the moisture. All the clues are in the text. You just have to read them.

 

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Preston Jacobs says so, so it must be true. 

 

 

That theory is laughable at best. Read the book, look at the text, it's plainly obvious the wine was laced, Joffrey was the target, and Littlefinger and Olenna admit to it for christs sake. But text should be thrown out the window, in favor of some flemsy theory brought to you by Preston Jacobs. I'm convinced some of you believe whatever you see on youtube. Tyrion doesn't express a single interest at any single time of "interfering with Littlefingers aspirations". He couldn't change it if he tried, he couldn't change Littlefinger taking control of the Vale through Lysa, he couldn't change or convince Joffrey nor Tywin to renege on LF's titles to Harrenhal and Lord Paramount Of The Trident, he had NO power to change any of that. Think for a second, with your own mind and not Preston Jacobs.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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On 12/19/2017 at 11:38 PM, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey drinks the wine and nothing happens to him for at least five times longer than it took Cressen to start choking. That is Fact 1. Then he eats the pie and starts choking in seconds, just like Cressen. Fact 2. Logic, and physical science, therefore dictates that the poison was in the pie, not the wine.

How could Lady O and/or Littlefinger have planned for Joffrey to suddenly eat Tyrion's pie? This is a completely unpredictable act, so how could it be their "Plan A"? If they were expecting people to think the Joffrey was choking on his own pie, then the mere fact that the chalice is way over near Garlan and Tyrion while Joffrey's pie is way back at his place at the high table all but eliminates that possibility.

How could the hairnet implicate Sansa? Who is going to make the connection between a dead king on the floor and a tiny missing crystal in the hairnet on one of the guest's heads? The strangler is virtually unknown by anyone except a few maesters. Whoever makes that accusation will automatically draw suspicion to him/herself, not Sansa. Secondly, why on earth would Sansa need to wear the poison on her head for all to see if she is the poisoner? The only reason for her to do that is to make it possible for someone else to get the poison. So if, through some incredible circumstance, the hairnet does implicate Sansa, then the first thing Tywin is going to want to know is, "who was at your hair that day, my lady?" And before the hot poker gets within 10 feet of Sansa's pretty little eye, she's going to say, "Lady Olenna." So, no, the plan could not possibly have been to use the hairnet to implicate Sansa because that trail leads right back to Lady O.

You ask why Sansa's escape should matter to Lady O? Because the whole idea of implicating Sansa rests on the notion that Lady O expects Sansa to still be in the throneroom after the king is dead, and this is simply not possible. Without the poisoning to provide cover for Sansa's escape, Littlefinger has no plausible reason for sticking his neck out by murdering the king, and Lady O has no reason to trust him. Littlefinger, if you'll recall, was the one who convinced the Tyrells that, despite all the rumors about evil Joffrey, he is a perfectly fine young man who will make a great husband for Margy. Once the Tyrells agree to the match, of course, we are then expected to believe that LF approaches Lady O in private and says, "Guess what, I lied. Joffrey is an evil little psycho and Margaery will not survive even one night with him." So I ask you, once he admits to that lie, what makes you think Lady O is gullible enough to trust him now that he says, "I'm only doing this because I feel so guilty about it"? And she goes right on trusting this confirmed liar and double-dealer right up until the plan has her and nearly her entire family tasked with poisoning the king while surrounded by Lannister guards in the Red Keep, all while LF himself is safe and sound on his boat out in the bay ready to hightail it to Braavos at the first sign of trouble. Where in the text is the evidence that Lady O is this mind-bogglingly stupid?

How to poison the pie? You do realize, I hope, that the poison is not a liquid, it's a crystal? She holds it in her hand, and when the servant holding the pie looks up at the pigeons, she tucks it into the filling. It takes a split-second, and she only has to make sure one person, if that, is not watching her -- unlike the wine, which Garlan has to make sure not one of a thousand people facing his direction happens to catch his long arm-reach to the lip of a three-foot chalice.

What makes you think the poison has to be cooked in order to activate? It dissolves more slowing in a hot, moist pie filling than in wine, but that's enough. Remember, Joffrey takes a bite of the pie and what does he notice? "A bit dry though. Needs washing down." The pie is dry because the poison is absorbing the moisture. All the clues are in the text. You just have to read them.

 

"Joffrey drinks the wine and nothing happens to him for at least five times longer than it took Cressen to start choking."
You've actually measured it?

"How could Lady O and/or Littlefinger have planned for Joffrey to suddenly eat Tyrion's pie?" (etc.)


What are you on about, again? Geez, lay off the pie already. The pie has nothing to do with it. Plan A was for it to look like Joffrey simply choked on a pie. Why the heck would he need to eat Tyrion's slice of pie for that?! You're not making any sense.

"How could the hairnet implicate Sansa?"
Um, because she was freaking wearing it to the wedding for everyone to see?! Because Dontos, Littlefinger's man, told her to do it? Just why do you think he did that?

 


You mean, like Pycelle?

Why the heck would the general public need to know about the Strangler for the plan to work? 

"Whoever makes that accusation will automatically draw suspicion to him/herself, not Sansa. "


Oh yeah, I remember how Cersei was automatically suspected the moment she said Joffrey was poisoned. Oh wait...

This, like pretty much every one of your arguments, is complete nonsense. 

"You ask why Sansa's escape should matter to Lady O? Because the whole idea of implicating Sansa rests on the notion that Lady O expects Sansa to still be in the throneroom after the king is dead, and this is simply not possible."


WTF? Again, total nonsense. Why the heck would Sansa need to be in the throne room after Joffrey's death to be suspected? Her immediate escape only makes her a lot more suspicious.

Which is, you know, exactly what happened! Sansa is believed to have poisoned Joffrey, and is wanted for regicide. Unless you've read some other book, where everyone said "oh, but Sansa escaped, so clearly she cannot have been the poisoner!"

"So I ask you, once he admits to that lie, what makes you think Lady O is gullible enough to trust him now that he says, "I'm only doing this because I feel so guilty about it"?"


What makes you think that Olenna was gullible?! Why the heck would she need to think any such nonsense about Littlefinger? I'm pretty sure she's aware Littlefinger is an ambitious, scheming creep - an ambitious, scheming creep she was scheming with, because it suited the Tyrell interests. They did it together, but the Tyrells did it for their own interests, not for Littlefinger. How is the plan bad for them? Olenna got exactly what she wanted - Joffrey dead, Margaery safe from him and able to marry the much more pliable Tommen - and once that the deed was done, the possibility of any suspicion falling on the Tyrells, let alone proving anything against them, is virtually non-existent. If people had believed Joffrey choked on the pie, fine; if people realize Joffrey was poisoned, they will blame Sansa and Tyrion - which they did. Sansa was the one who wore the hairnet, Dontos was the one who supplied it, Littlefinger is the one who procured the Strangler and gave it to Dontos to give to Sansa, and the one who afterwards kidnapped Sansa, kept the hairnet and killed Dontos to cover his tracks. If someone finds that Sansa is with Littlefinger in the Vale, this would only throw suspicion on Littlefinger, not the Tyrells. Even in the unlikely event that Kettleblack senior or anyone else is ever reveals the truth about Dontos' murder and his connection to LF, or even if the hairnet is found, none of it can implicate the Tyrells in any way. Even if Sansa were to testify about what LF told her - it would just be hearsay, her word about Littlefinger's word, and absolutely no way to prove anything about the Tyrells.

So tell me again how Olenna had to be "gullible" or "stupid" to devise this plan with Littlefinger and carry it out? Seems to me she got exactly what she wanted and perfectly covered her tracks.

 

"You do realize, I hope, that the poison is not a liquid, it's a crystal?"


You do realize, I hope, that the poison is a crystal which dissolves in liquid? How do you imagine the poison to work otherwise? Do you think that people wouldn't notice that there's a freaking crystal in their drink and would just swallow it?! 
However, the crystal would definitely not dissolve when tucked into an already baked piece of pie. I can't believe I have to explain that. It's common sense and general knowledge about how substances work. So what, you expect Joffrey to just swallow the crystal?!  Instead of, you know, taking it out and saying "why is there a crystal in my pie?"

On 12/25/2017 at 6:57 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Preston Jacobs says so, so it must be true. 

 

 

That theory is laughable at best. Read the book, look at the text, it's plainly obvious the wine was laced, Joffrey was the target, and Littlefinger and Olenna admit to it for christs sake. But text should be thrown out the window, in favor of some flemsy theory brought to you by Preston Jacobs. I'm convinced some of you believe whatever you see on youtube. Tyrion doesn't express a single interest at any single time of "interfering with Littlefingers aspirations". He couldn't change it if he tried, he couldn't change Littlefinger taking control of the Vale through Lysa, he couldn't change or convince Joffrey nor Tywin to renege on LF's titles to Harrenhal and Lord Paramount Of The Trident, he had NO power to change any of that. Think for a second, with your own mind and not Preston Jacobs.

Thank you.

Edited by Annara Snow

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9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"Joffrey drinks the wine and nothing happens to him for at least five times longer than it took Cressen to start choking."
You've actually measured it?

Yes. It's right in the text. Both sequences unfold in real-time with no jumps forward, backward or sideward in time. Cressen drinks his half-swallow, drops his cup, Mel says her one sentence about the Lord of Light, Cressen tries to speak but cannot.

Joffrey takes multiple chugs of wine that is supposedly so poisoned it has turned purple, then shows no reaction while Margy says an even longer sentence about Lord Buckler, Joffrey taunts Tyrion about his pie, reaches down, taunts again, shoves pie into his gob, taunts again, grabs another piece, bit dry, needs washing down, drinks wine -- and only then does he start coughing to the point where he cannot speak. If you look closely, you'll see that the time between the pie finally entering Tyrion's throat with the swallow of wine and the time he cannot speak is virtually identical in the two events. It's an open-and-shut case: the poison could not have been in the wine, otherwise Joffrey would have been on the floor by the time Margy finished speaking. The only other possibility is the pie, which means Tyrion had to be the target.

9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"How could Lady O and/or Littlefinger have planned for Joffrey to suddenly eat Tyrion's pie?" (etc.)


What are you on about, again? Geez, lay off the pie already. The pie has nothing to do with it. Plan A was for it to look like Joffrey simply choked on a pie. Why the heck would he need to eat Tyrion's slice of pie for that?! You're not making any sense.

Well, please, tell me. If the plan is to make it appear that Joffrey choked on pie, then they must have been counting on him eating pie as he is drinking his poisoned wine. So now that the chalice is all the way over at Garlan/Tyrion's location and Joffrey's pie is back at his place next to Tywin and Cersei, how could they expect him to be eating pie? Whose pie would he be eating? Why would they expect him to eat anything but his own pie, which is now some yards away? All it takes is one sip on the way to his pie, or a toast from someone, and Plan A is finished.

9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"How could the hairnet implicate Sansa?"
Um, because she was freaking wearing it to the wedding for everyone to see?! Because Dontos, Littlefinger's man, told her to do it? Just why do you think he did that?

Well, you obviously didn't read the explanation I just gave you, but I'll try again: OK, she was wearing a hairnet with purple stones in it; everybody saw. Now suddenly there is a dead king on the floor and Sansa is standing there. Who is going to step forward and say "AHA, a tiny missing gem on Lady Sansa's hairnet. Obviously this is a poison that virtually no one in the world knows about, but I just happened to spot it with my eagle eye. Here is you poisoner, Lord Tywin." Why wouldn't Tywin be instantly suspicious of such a remarkable discovery?

We're not trying to determine whether the strangler was in the hairnet. We know that it was. But how, exactly, are the Tyrell's supposed to use it to implicate Sansa without drawing suspicion on themselves? And even if they do somehow manage to pull this off, all that happens is Sansa is dragged to the black cells to be put to the question. The first thing they are going to ask is "Where did you get the hairnet?" She will, of course, give up Dontos, who will be dead by now. So now they know there is a conspiracy afoot and that Sansa did not act alone. Nor could she. She is all alone in the capital, has no friends, no money -- how could this little girl, all by herself, acquire this rare and expensive poison and also commission a silver hairnet with a trick clasp? Furthermore, the mere fact that she is wearing the poison on her head for all to see rather than simply carrying it in her pocket is proof positive that the intent was for someone else to get the poison. So the next obvious question is, "Who touched your hair that day, my lady?" and that leads right to Lady Olenna, who also happened to be standing in the vicinity just before the poisoning occurred.

So, again, no, there is no way Lady O could count on Joffrey eating and drinking at the same time with the chalice so far from Joffrey's place, and there is no way she would want to implicate Sansa with the hairnet and thus implicate herself.

If I understand your next question, it is why use the hairnet at all? The only way the hairnet makes any sense is with Tyrion and the pie. First off, if Lady O has been part of this plan all the way back at Highgarden, then there is no need for the hairnet. Just give Lady O the poison and let her carry it. But the fact is that Lady O was not part of the plan until after Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and after the Red Wedding. This is long after the hairnet has been delivered. So what is LF's game here? First, he has to find some way to ensure that Sansa and the poison are in the same place at the same time, so it can be used to create the diversion to cover her escape. But how to do that? He can't very well let Dontos hold it; he might sell it and skip town. He can't hold it himself because he can't be sure he can get it to her once the fog of war has lifted, nor has he any reason to trust his eventual poisoner with the evidence. The only solution is to place it with Sansa so that she knows it is crucial to her salvation but she doesn't know why. Now he doesn't have to worry about being double-crossed and he can be virtually certain that both of his crucial pieces, Sansa and the poison, will be where and when they need to be.

9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

You mean, like Pycelle?

Why the heck would the general public need to know about the Strangler for the plan to work? 

Old, bleary-eyed Pycelle is going to spot a tiny missing crystal on Sansa's hairnet? Come on. Pycelle is nowhere near Sansa the entire night. Barring mere, and extremely unlikely, coincidence, you would have to have Pycelle, who has been Tywin's man in the Red Keep for more than two decades, suddenly conspiring with Littlefinger and the Tyrells to kill Joffrey. Sorry, but you'll need some shred of evidence to make that one stick. Of course, Pycelle would be more than pleased to conspire with anyone to kill Tyrion, but they don't need him so it's a moot point.

 

9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"Whoever makes that accusation will automatically draw suspicion to him/herself, not Sansa. "

Oh yeah, I remember how Cersei was automatically suspected the moment she said Joffrey was poisoned. Oh wait...

This, like pretty much every one of your arguments, is complete nonsense. 

She doesn't use the hairnet or her knowledge of one of the rarest poisons in all the world to make the accusation. She sees Tyrion holding the chalice and points the finger. It would be utterly out of character for her not to do that.

10 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"You ask why Sansa's escape should matter to Lady O? Because the whole idea of implicating Sansa rests on the notion that Lady O expects Sansa to still be in the throneroom after the king is dead, and this is simply not possible."


WTF? Again, total nonsense. Why the heck would Sansa need to be in the throne room after Joffrey's death to be suspected? Her immediate escape only makes her a lot more suspicious.

Which is, you know, exactly what happened! Sansa is believed to have poisoned Joffrey, and is wanted for regicide. Unless you've read some other book, where everyone said "oh, but Sansa escaped, so clearly she cannot have been the poisoner!"

Are you serious? First you argue that the hairnet is what will implicate Sansa and now you say it is the fact that she has vanished. Which is it? If Sansa is no longer in the throneroom, then neither is the hairnet, so how is it supposed to implicate her if the Tyrells know she is going to be gone by the time the king is dead?

10 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"So I ask you, once he admits to that lie, what makes you think Lady O is gullible enough to trust him now that he says, "I'm only doing this because I feel so guilty about it"?"


What makes you think that Olenna was gullible?! Why the heck would she need to think any such nonsense about Littlefinger? I'm pretty sure she's aware Littlefinger is an ambitious, scheming creep - an ambitious, scheming creep she was scheming with, because it suited the Tyrell interests. They did it together, but the Tyrells did it for their own interests, not for Littlefinger. How is the plan bad for them? Olenna got exactly what she wanted - Joffrey dead, Margaery safe from him and able to marry the much more pliable Tommen - and once that the deed was done, the possibility of any suspicion falling on the Tyrells, let alone proving anything against them, is virtually non-existent. If people had believed Joffrey choked on the pie, fine; if people realize Joffrey was poisoned, they will blame Sansa and Tyrion - which they did. Sansa was the one who wore the hairnet, Dontos was the one who supplied it, Littlefinger is the one who procured the Strangler and gave it to Dontos to give to Sansa, and the one who afterwards kidnapped Sansa, kept the hairnet and killed Dontos to cover his tracks. If someone finds that Sansa is with Littlefinger in the Vale, this would only throw suspicion on Littlefinger, not the Tyrells. Even in the unlikely event that Kettleblack senior or anyone else is ever reveals the truth about Dontos' murder and his connection to LF, or even if the hairnet is found, none of it can implicate the Tyrells in any way. Even if Sansa were to testify about what LF told her - it would just be hearsay, her word about Littlefinger's word, and absolutely no way to prove anything about the Tyrells.

So tell me again how Olenna had to be "gullible" or "stupid" to devise this plan with Littlefinger and carry it out? Seems to me she got exactly what she wanted and perfectly covered her tracks.

 

Please read the text. Littlefinger arrives at Highgarden as the envoy to the Iron Throne, here to broker a military alliance between Tyrell and Lannister anchored by the marriage of Joffrey to Margaery. While his men are spreading tales about Joffrey's "misdeeds", Littlefinger is singing his praises, which, apparently, is enough to sway the Tyrells to agree to the match. Shortly after, however, Littlefinger approaches Lady O with his plan to poison Joffrey. At this point, is he sticking to his original story about Joffrey? Why is he advising Lady O to kill him if Margaery is in no danger? What possible reason could he give her to commit regicide other than to save Margy from the mess that Littlefinger himself lied about at the start?

Obviously, Littlefinger has to confess that he lied. So if Lady O had any doubts about Littlefinger (which, you're right, I'm sure she has no illusions about what kind of person he is; but by that same token, she should also have no illusions as to what kind of person Joffrey is either), why would she then plot with this known liar and backstabber to commit the most heinous crime in the kingdom? And as the plan unfolds, and it results in Lady O committing this act at a time when practically her entire family can be rounded up in a heartbeat and sent to the black cells, do you think she has any reason to be suspicious of this known schemer's true intentions, particularly when his plan has him safe and sound on a ship in the bay? Do you think Lady O got to where she is by trusting known liars and double-dealers not only with her life but virtually the entire Tyrell line?

Please, she is not stupid and there is no way she would agree to this cockamamie plan when there is no indication, none at all, that Joffrey is even the slightest bit displeased with Margaery. I'll go so far as to say that at this point, Margaery is probably the only person in the entire world that Joffrey does not despise. Joff is a skinny 13yo and Margaery is a smoking hot 17. She is going to screw his brains out beyond his wildest imagination every night for a good long time. If Joffrey ever does pose a threat to Margaery, it will be months if not years in the future, and they can get rid of him in all kinds of ways, none of which involves poisoning him right in front of literally thousands of witnesses at a time when 90 percent of House Tyrell is vulnerable to arrest and execution. And by then, Margaery will have produced an heir (or two, or three) and then she will rule as Queen Regent until the he comes of age. It seems to me that you think Lady O is motivated by nothing more than to make sure Margaery has a safe, happy marriage, and this is sheer nonsense. Lady O is a hard-nosed player of the Game of Thrones who knows that highborn ladies must often enter into dangerous, even life-threatening marriages for the sake of their houses. Joffrey gave Sansa a few bruises, a black eye and a cut lip. This is kids stuff to Lady O, and certainly nothing to jeopardize your acquisition of the Iron Throne over.

11 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

""You do realize, I hope, that the poison is not a liquid, it's a crystal?"

You do realize, I hope, that the poison is a crystal which dissolves in liquid? How do you imagine the poison to work otherwise? Do you think that people wouldn't notice that there's a freaking crystal in their drink and would just swallow it?! 
However, the crystal would definitely not dissolve when tucked into an already baked piece of pie. I can't believe I have to explain that. It's common sense and general knowledge about how substances work. So what, you expect Joffrey to just swallow the crystal?!  Instead of, you know, taking it out and saying "why is there a crystal in my pie?"

 

Pie filling is hot and moist. Plenty of liquid to dissolve the crystal at least partially. Remember: "A bit dry. Needs washing down." The poison absorbing liquid for the dissolution process, perhaps? To say that it would "definitely not" dissolve in a cooked pie is nonsense. It would dissolve as easily as a crystal of sugar or salt.

If the crystal is still hard by the time Tyrion gets it, he crunches on it, thinks he has a bone and by the time he spits it out it's too late -- he's a dead man. Now we have a plausible expectation that the court will think that Tyrion simply choked on a piece of pie.

And if you insist that wine is necessary to dissolve the crystal, well just read the text: Joffrey takes a big slug of wine just before he starts coughing in earnest. So there is your wine, right with the poison in Joffrey's mouth and throat. It would not be a huge stretch to expect Tyrion to drink wine with his pie as well.

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:57 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Preston Jacobs says so, so it must be true. 

That theory is laughable at best. Read the book, look at the text, it's plainly obvious the wine was laced, Joffrey was the target, and Littlefinger and Olenna admit to it for christs sake. But text should be thrown out the window, in favor of some flemsy theory brought to you by Preston Jacobs. I'm convinced some of you believe whatever you see on youtube. Tyrion doesn't express a single interest at any single time of "interfering with Littlefingers aspirations". He couldn't change it if he tried, he couldn't change Littlefinger taking control of the Vale through Lysa, he couldn't change or convince Joffrey nor Tywin to renege on LF's titles to Harrenhal and Lord Paramount Of The Trident, he had NO power to change any of that. Think for a second, with your own mind and not Preston Jacobs.

If PJ brought it to us, then I must be unwittingly psychic, since you can find my posts going back at least five years trying to explain how things really are.

The wine is simply impossible. It is physically impossible. It is physiologically impossible. It is logistically impossible. It conforms neither to the motivations of the principal plotters, nor the actions taken by them or those they consider pieces in this scheme.

For nearly three full novels, it was plainly obvious that Jaime and Cersei killed Jon Arryn, but all the clues were in place to figure out the truth before it was revealed. Same thing for the Westerling conspiracy and multiple other smaller plot points. This is how great writing works: lay the illusion in the text so the reader thinks it's "obvious" while putting the truth in the subtext that only becomes evident in hindsight, after the author has revealed the truth. It is the basis for the modern mystery novel, and this is exactly what we have here: a murder mystery.

I would love to see some text, anything at all, that supports the wine. There is no text that suggests it was laced; Joffrey does not start coughing or choking until he eats the pie. There is no text that supports Cressen's wine as more poisoned; in fact, the text shows the exact opposite, and it wouldn't matter if it did -- basic chemistry shows that higher concentration will not shorten the reaction time, just lessen its intensity. There is no text that supports the idea that Lady O is afraid for Margaery or that Margaery herself is concerned; again, the text shows the exact opposite. There is no text that supports the idea that Joffrey is displeased with Margy in any way; once again, we see the exact opposite in the text. There is no text that makes it even remotely possible that anyone but Garlan to poison the chalice, and even then he has a thousand pairs of eyes looking in his direction; also, Garlan is an anointed knight and there is no text that suggests he would sacrifice his honor by poisoning a foe, let alone a dwarf that he could easily defeat at arms.

The only text we have is the word of Littlefinger, aka, the single biggest liar in the book, spinning a tale for Sansa after the fact; "cough, cough, sure we had this all along. Nothing to worry about sweetling, just do as I tell you from now on because everything is going according to plan."

If you have text that supports anything about the wine, please post. There is a huge difference between basing a theory on actual facts and inventing your own fantasy facts to fit your conclusion.

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