manchester_babe

Why is Arya so boring?

111 posts in this topic

On 12/8/2017 at 9:47 AM, manchester_babe said:

Do you know how amazing Sansa Stark is? 

Do you? Do you know what she's been through? 

Do you how much she's suffered? Or endured? Sansa is not boring. It's Arya. Arya is all about murder meanwhile Sansa's life is twisted fairytale. There's my ted talk. 

Arya’s arc is not “all about murder”. You’d know that if you’ve read her chapters. There’s much more to Arya than murder. There’s themes about abandonment, love, hate, compassion, pain, suffering, empathy (Arya is probably one of the most empathic characters in the books), family, friends, resoucefulness, perseverance, being the outsider, revenge, etc. etc. The list goes on.

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17 minutes ago, teej6 said:

It is trolling when a poster starts a thread stating they find a character boring and provide no basis or textual evidence for their “opinion” as you call it. It becomes just another hate thread. But then again, judging from your posts, just hating on a character and dissing on the character without any textual basis or rationale seems to be your modus operandi.

Many posters (including myself) on this forum dislike certain characters or find their arcs boring but they back their views with arguments and textual evidence.

Uh, you might want to read the other posts in this thread before you make a comment about not backing up an opinion.  Moiraine Sedai gave her reasons in one of her posts here.  Be thorough  before you posts crap like that, please.

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On 11/30/2017 at 9:35 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

A mentally deranged killer is not unique in fiction nor in real life.  Arya is not as boring as Jon though.  It's hard to enjoy her story arc but she is more readable than Jon and Sansa.  She's weird and her story is not really good.

This is a good enough reason to me.  teej6 should read.

Edited by Texas Hold Em

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On 08/12/2017 at 2:47 PM, manchester_babe said:

Do you know what she's been through? 

Do you how much she's suffered? Or endured?

Whilst Arya's life has just been a walk in the park. Cool.

 

53 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

This is a good enough reason to me.  teej6 should read.

Where is the "basis or textual evidence" in that quote? Unsurprisingly there is none as in the books there is no indication that Arya is a mentally deranged killer.

 

How have these Dany trolls not been banned yet? I say Dany trolls but they don't seem to do much positive interaction with her character either, just negative with the Starks.

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1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Uh, you might want to read the other posts in this thread before you make a comment about not backing up an opinion.  Moiraine Sedai gave her reasons in one of her posts here.  Be thorough  before you posts crap like that, please.

And you should probably check up on your reading comprehension skills. When I referred to trolling, I meant the OP’s post not the poster you referenced. As to the poster you referenced, I’ve seen his/her arguments on why he/she hates a character or finds them bad/evil and this poster’s arguments are based on personal hate/vitriol and not arguments based on the text. Like I said, there are lots of posters on this forum who dislike a character or two or find them boring but their arguments are sound and based on the text as they seems to have actually read the books.

Edited by teej6

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57 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

This is a good enough reason to me.  teej6 should read.

And this is the basis of your argument. Seriously read the books are then post on a book thread.

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Many posters (including myself) on this forum dislike certain characters or find their arcs boring but they back their views with arguments and textual evidence.

How is it possible for there to be "textual evidence" that a fictional character is boring, unless the textual evidence is supposed to convey that the character actually is boring? In that case, it's not exactly a controversial idea that can be refuted by evidence.

Even textual evidence, supposing it exists, can be interpreted differently by a different reader who could argue that the text makes the character interesting.

I don't see how someone maintaining that they are bored by a character can be anything other than an opinion (with the exception of a character deliberately created to be so).

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34 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Whilst Arya's life has just been a walk in the park. Cool.

 

Where is the "basis or textual evidence" in that quote? Unsurprisingly there is none as in the books there is no indication that Arya is a mentally deranged killer.

 

How have these Dany trolls not been banned yet? I say Dany trolls but they don't seem to do much positive interaction with her character either, just negative with the Starks.

Yeah they are so evidently the Jon/Stark haters. And they seem to appear in most threads these days just to have that additional hour in the day to hate on Jon or the Starks. And most of them (based on their posts) don’t seem to have read or comprehended the books fully. At least in the past, posters who disliked a character based their arguments on the text now it’s just based on “their opinion”. 

Edited by teej6

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20 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

How is it possible for there to be "textual evidence" that a fictional character is boring, unless the textual evidence is supposed to convey that the character actually is boring? In that case, it's not exactly a controversial idea that can be refuted by evidence.

Even textual evidence, supposing it exists, can be interpreted differently by a different reader who could argue that the text makes the character interesting.

I don't see how someone maintaining that they are bored by a character can be anything other than an opinion (with the exception of a character deliberately created to be so).

It can be an opinion, but an opinion based on certain facts from the text. I would understand and appreciate the OP’s views or opinion on Arya if he/she stated that Arya was boring because her Essos arc has nothing to do with the central plot or because the Facelessmen seem like a cult of assasins with no depth. And I definitely agree that different people have different views on characters, storylines, etc. But if you just state that a character is boring without any basis for your argument, then it seems like a hate thread to me. 

Even in the case of a fictional character, the facts of the character’s arc are available to the reader to make a strong or not so strong argument about why this character is boring or evil or something else. Just describing a nuanced (yes fictional) character with one adjective is not a discussion or argument. 

Again, just to be clear, the OP or anyone else can have differing opinions and I’m all for a lively debate and I also understand people’s personal biases are always brought into such debates, like/dislike of characters. But when you start a debate or discussion provide basis for your arguments. And in this case, the argument should be based on the text of the books not just personal opinions. 

Edited by teej6

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George is not going to spoon feed it to his readers but it is obvious Arya is mentally ill.  Whether you find that interesting or not interesting is up to your idea of what makes for a fun character.  Killing the coin master's bodyguard (Rafe) is not what mentally healthy children do. 

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9 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

How is it possible for there to be "textual evidence" that a fictional character is boring, unless the textual evidence is supposed to convey that the character actually is boring? In that case, it's not exactly a controversial idea that can be refuted by evidence.

Even textual evidence, supposing it exists, can be interpreted differently by a different reader who could argue that the text makes the character interesting.

I don't see how someone maintaining that they are bored by a character can be anything other than an opinion (with the exception of a character deliberately created to be so).

:agree:

Using text to explain reasoning adds to the discussion, but I'd rather people not feel compelled to force the text when they really dislike a character for personal reasons. A lot of times we just like or dislike someone in real life and never really realize why (subconscious, long-forgotten memories or what have you), and the same applies to fictional characters.

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30 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

George is not going to spoon feed it to his readers but it is obvious Arya is mentally ill.  Whether you find that interesting or not interesting is up to your idea of what makes for a fun character.  Killing the coin master's bodyguard (Rafe) is not what mentally healthy children do. 

Arya definitely has issues. IIRC, GRRM has compared her arc to that of a child soldier. In Arya’s case, I don’t think she’s fully gone the way of a mindless killing machine. The killing you mentioned (which btw is from a sample chapter and should probably be hidden) is motivated by her anger/hate of the said character based on his past actions. So Arya is motivated in her actions by emotions seen in a sane person. One may disagree with Arya’s right to act as judge and executioner, but she’s making her choice based on her judgement of the character’s past deeds and her hatred of the man not on a whim or for no reason at all, which would be the case if she were mentally ill. 

Edited by teej6

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23 minutes ago, teej6 said:

It can be an opinion, but an opinion based on certain facts from the text. I would understand and appreciate the OP’s views or opinion on Arya if he/she stated that Arya was boring because her Essos arc has nothing to do with the central plot or because the Facelessmen seem like a cult of assasins with no depth. And I definitely agree that different people have different views on characters, storylines, etc. But if you just state that a character is boring without any basis for your argument, then it seems like a hate thread to me.

But in the end, an opinion is just that and only that. There really cannot be any text that supports or refutes a person's personal reaction. Even if someone makes the argument that Arya's Essos arc has nothing to do with the central plot, for example, that is also an opinion (unless the person arguing that point is GRRM). Because no reader can know that at this point how that arc will affect the rest of the story. And GRRM wrote that arc into the books so it's pretty clear that to him it's important to the overall story, otherwise it wouldn't be there. But pointing out a plotline's necessity can't do anything to change a bored reader's mind, because the necessity of the plotline isn't what they are bored by.

 

34 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But when you start a debate or discussion provide basis for your arguments. And in this case, the argument should be based on the text of the books not just personal opinions. 

I'm sorry, but this is just not possible. A personal opinion is what was being expressed by the OP and the basis for their opinion is that they are bored by Arya. There is simply no objective rationale (like text) that can support or refute a person's individual opinions. It always boils down to "I just don't like it" or "It's really interesting to me", no matter how much text is quoted. Always.

 

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22 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

:agree:

Using text to explain reasoning adds to the discussion, but I'd rather people not feel compelled to force the text when they really dislike a character for personal reasons. A lot of times we just like or dislike someone in real life and never really realize why (subconscious, long-forgotten memories or what have you), and the same applies to fictional characters.

 

 

 

 

Sorry I must disagree. This is a forum to discuss the books (or the show) and not to discuss people’s personal opinions or biases. I do agree that people’s like/dislike or interest in a character will to some extend be based on personal biases but that does not mean one should negate the text, which the characters are based on. So when a poster argues that Jon (fill in the blank with any other character) is evil because that’s what they think based on their opinion and with no textual basis, then the poster is not here for a debate/discussion but just to ram their biased views on others. 

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29 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

:agree:

Using text to explain reasoning adds to the discussion, but I'd rather people not feel compelled to force the text when they really dislike a character for personal reasons. A lot of times we just like or dislike someone in real life and never really realize why (subconscious, long-forgotten memories or what have you), and the same applies to fictional characters.

If you can't rationalise your dislike, then don't start a thread as it will never go anywhere but instead turn into a series of empty assertions about whether they are good/interesting or not.

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3 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But in the end, an opinion is just that and only that. There really cannot be any text that supports or refutes a person's personal reaction. Even if someone makes the argument that Arya's Essos arc has nothing to do with the central plot, for example, that is also an opinion (unless the person arguing that point is GRRM). Because no reader can know that at this point how that arc will affect the rest of the story. And GRRM wrote that arc into the books so it's pretty clear that to him it's important to the overall story, otherwise it wouldn't be there. But pointing out a plotline's necessity can't do anything to change a bored reader's mind, because the necessity of the plotline isn't what they are bored by.

 

I'm sorry, but this is just not possible. A personal opinion is what was being expressed by the OP and the basis for their opinion is that they are bored by Arya. There is simply no objective rationale (like text) that can support or refute a person's individual opinions. It always boils down to "I just don't like it" or "It's really interesting to me", no matter how much text is quoted. Always.

 

Whether Arya’s Essos plot is central to the main story is not the point. The point is basing your views on something related to the text and making those arguments in a discussion thread such as this. I or posters like me need not agree with the OP’s opinion even if he/she provides textual basis for their views but at least I can understand/appreciate the OP’s point of view then.

Besides one of the above poster used the word “opinion” not me. In forums such as this, we are not debating/discussing people’s opinions, rather we are discussing people’s interpretations of the series’ character/storylines based on the text. It should be the text that forms the basis for these views. Now the OP may very well be forming his/her views based on the text but he/she has not provided any arguments from the books themselves to show why he/she considers Arya boring. If that was the case, I would be debating those specific arguments (based on the text) with the OP and not discounting his/her thread as another hate thread.

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12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

This is a forum to discuss the books (or the show) and not to discuss people’s personal opinions or biases.

I'm not following.. this statement seems to contradict your next sentence?

12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I do agree that people’s like/dislike or interest in a character will to some extend be based on personal biases but that does not mean one should negate the text, which the characters are based on.

 

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16 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

If you can't rationalise your dislike, then don't start a thread as it will never go anywhere but instead turn into a series of empty assertions about whether they are good/interesting or not.

I agree that stating like or dislike full stop is awful for discussion but folks will continue to state their opinions regardless. But I'd still rather people just state that they like/don't like a character for personal reasons rather than contort themselves seeking evidence (validation) from the text.

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11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not following.. this statement seems to contradict your next sentence?

 

I meant that I do understand that people’s views on characters will depend on their personal biases to some extent but that should not solely dictate their interpretation of a character from the books. And when a poster makes a blanket statement like so and so character is boring, they should provide arguments from the text to back this view of theirs. Or else, it turns out to be just personal bias and not rooted in anything they read/interpreted from the books.

As to my point about the forum, the forum is meant to debate/discuss interpretations of characters from the books and the storylines based on the text of said books and not just based on personal biases or likes/dislikes.

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24 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I agree that stating like or dislike full stop is awful for discussion but folks will continue to state their opinions regardless. But I'd still rather people just state that they like/don't like a character for personal reasons rather than contort themselves seeking evidence (validation) from the text.

Now I see your point and I must differ. I’d rather people base their views on their interpretation of the text than personal taste. Then, what is the point of the books? GRRM has written his characters in a way that is open to differing interpretations and therefore I may find Jamie’s redemption arc not convincing enough based on my interpretation of the text (and agreed to some extent my personal bias) but another reader may find Jamie a tragic hero. In this case if the person provided arguments as to why they think Jamie is a tragic hero, I may still disagree with the person but I will understand/respect the person’s views. 

Edited by teej6

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