.Alternate Facts

[AlaskanSandman]

Try this again, ill add the quotes later, sorry.

This is an accumulation of alternate facts and time accounts given and disputed by the Maesters. Put together as an examination of a possible alternate time line.

garths-children-and-their-war-of-love

1-kingdom-1-curse-1-wall

andal-lies-and-the-signs-of-valyria

Founding of Valyria (To be able to war with Ghis, duh)

3000 years ago -  Ghiscari war with Valyria 

1                                              (This would thus hypothetically be the war between Garths Children.)

2                                             (Gendle and Gorne sometime back then?)

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

 

                                               (Bracken vs Blackwoods)

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A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

3

4-Abandonment of Zamettar

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

Nymeria refused and took her fleet to sea once again, hoping to find refuge amongst the steaming jungles of Sothoryos. Some settled on Basilisk Point, others beside the glistening green waters of the Zamoyos, amongst quicksands, crocodiles, and rotting, half-drowned trees. Princess Nymeria herself remained with the ships at Zamettar, a Ghiscari colony abandoned for a thousand years, whilst others made their way upriver to the cyclopean ruins of Yeen, haunt of ghouls and spiders.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

For more than a year the Rhoynar struggled to survive in Sothoryos, until the day when a boat from Zamettar arrived at Yeen to find that every man, woman, and child in that haunted, ruined city had vanished overnight. Then Nymeria summoned her people back to the ships and set sail once again.

 

2000 years ago - 5th and last. Ghiscari war

                                    Andal Invasion of Vale and Alyssa Arryn

                                   King Beyond the Wall uses sorcery to pass beyond the wall? Or This is when Gendel and Gorne existed? Walls of Winterfell possibly go up at this time possibly meaning Winterfell and Wall may have also.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. 

 

                                   Dawn Forged (Forged during end of Long Night)- Battle for the Dawn

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You've mentioned that Dawn has an illustrious history -- is there a ballpark figure for how long the Daynes and/or Starfall/Dawn have existed?

Oh, I'd say Dawn goes back a couple thousand years... and before that, things get a little fuzzy anyway.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

 

                            Inner Walls of Winterfell built- Winterfell and Wall raised

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell

The inner walls, which were once the only defensive walls, are estimated to be some two thousand years old, and perhaps some sections are older still. In later years, a defensive moat was dug around them, then a second wall was raised beyond the moat, giving the castle a formidable defense. The inner walls stand a hundred feet high, the outer walls eighty; any attacker who succeeded in capturing the outer wall would still find defenders on the inner walls loosing spears and stones and arrows down at him.

 

1736 - Scouring of Lorath in defense of Norvos

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Lorath

Distances meant little and less to the dragonlords in the summer of their power, however. It is written in The Fires of the Freehold that a hundred dragons took to the skies, following the great river north to descend upon the Andals as they lay siege to Norvos. Qarlon the Great burned with his army, and afterward the dragonlords flew onward, bringing blood and fire to the isles of Lorath. Qarlon's great keep went up in flames, as did the towns and fishing villages along his shores. Even the great stones of the mazes were scorched and blackened by the firestorms that swept across the islands. It is said that not a man, woman, or child survived the Scouring of Lorath, so hot did those fires burn.

Thereafter the Lorathi isles remained uninhabited for more than a century.

 

1636 - Boash on Lorath

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Lorath

Thereafter the Lorathi isles remained uninhabited for more than a century. Seals and walrus returned in great numbers, and crabs scuttled through the scorched and silent mazes. Whalers from the Port of Ibben put ashore to mend their hulls or find freshwater, but they never ventured inland, for the islands were said to be haunted, and the Ibbenese believed any man accursed who went beyond the sound of the sea.

When men at last returned to the isles to live, they were men from Valyria itself. Thirteen hundred and twenty-two years before the Doom, a sect of religious dissidents left the Freehold to establish a temple upon Lorath's main isle.

 

 1300 - Andals take Old Town and Hightowers, bringing Glass Candles with them and Exiling House Manderly

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

It was not until some thousand years before the Conquest, when the fugitive Manderlys came to the North and swore their oaths at the Wolf's Den, that the problem of the defense of the White Knife—the river that provides access into the very heart of the North—was resolved with the creation of White Harbor.

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

 

             Falcon Crown made and first worn by Ser Artys Arryn (Crowned in Old Town?)

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale: House Arryn

The true tale of House Arryn contains neither giants nor griffins nor huge falcons, yet from the day Ser Artys first donned the Falcon Crown to the present, they have rightly held a storied place in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. 

 

             Start of Rhoynish wars same century in 1250

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

 Beldecar's History of the Rhoynish Wars is without equal in describing these conflicts, which stretched over the best part of two and a half centuries.

 

 

1000- Boash die out on Lorath- now Valyrian colony

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Lorath

 

An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhood. Accordingly, the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as "a man" or "a woman" rather than say "I" or "me" or "mine." Though the cult of the Blind God withered and died out more than a thousand years ago, certain of these habits of speech endure even now in Lorath, where men and women of the noble classes regard it as inutterably vulgar to speak of one's self directly.

 

            End of Rhoynish Wars and flight of Nymeria

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

Higher on the Rhoyne, in Ny Sar, Princess Nymeria soon received the news of Garin's shattering defeat and the enslavement of the people of Chroyane and Sar Mell. The same fate awaited her own city, she saw. Accordingly, she gathered every ship that remained upon the Rhoyne, large or small, and filled them full of as many women and children as they could carry (for almost all the men of fighting age had marched with Garin, and died). Down the river Nymeria led this ragged fleet, past ruined and smoking towns and fields of the dead, through waters choked with bloated, floating corpses. To avoid Volantis and its hosts, she chose the older channel and emerged into the Summer Sea where once Sarhoy had stood.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Volantis

 

For much of its early history, Volantis benefited from the trade between Valyria and the Rhoynar, waxing ever more prosperous and powerful...whilst Sarhoy, the ancient and beautiful Rhoynish city that had previously dominated that commerce, suffered a corresponding decline. Inevitably, this led the two cities into conflict. The long series of wars that followed, the details of which have been recounted elsewhere, culminated with the utter destruction of the cities of the Rhoyne and the flight of Nymeria and her ten thousand ships. Though the dragonlords of Valyria won the victory, it is rightly said that Volantis was the principal beneficiary. Sarhoy remains in ruins to this day, a desolate and haunted place, whilst Volantis, with its Long Bridge and Black Walls and huge harbor, ranks amongst the great cities of the world.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

This series of conflicts reached a bloody climax a thousand years ago in the Second Spice War, when three Valyrian dragonlords joined with their kin and cousins in Volantis to overwhelm, sack, and destroy Sarhoy, the great Rhoynar port city upon the Summer Sea. The warriors of Sarhoy were slaughtered savagely, their children carried off into slavery, and their proud pink city put to the torch. Afterward the Volantenes sowed the smoking ruins with salt so that Sarhoy might never rise again.

 

          Last of the Jhogwin, the Stone Giants of the Bone Mountains.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond

Even the snowcapped northernmost peaks (known as Krazaaj Zasqa or White Mountains in the Dothraki tongue), where the cold winds come howling off the Shivering Sea winter and summer, were once home to the Jhogwin, the stone giants, massive creatures said to have been twice as large as the giants of Westeros. Alas, the last of the Jhogwin disappeared a thousand years ago; only their massive bones remain to mark where they once roamed.

 

          King Beyond the Wall uses sorcery to pass beyond the wall?

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. 

       

             68th and last yellow emperor

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

    Today Yin is once more the capital of Yi Ti. There the seventeenth azure emperor Bu Gai sits in splendor in a palace larger than all King's Landing. Yet far to the east, well beyond the borders of the Golden Empire proper, past the legendary Mountains of the Morn, in the city Carcosa on the Hidden Sea, dwells in exile a sorcerer lord who claims to be the sixty-ninth yellow emperor, from a dynasty fallen for a thousand years.

 

800- Ironborn speak of lost ships and battles lost 800 years ago (Iron born Decline)

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A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

It was a good beginning. Aeron heard shouts of approval, but they dwindled as the old man began to tell of the glory of the Drumms. He spoke of Dale the Dread, Roryn the Reaver, the hundred sons of Gormond Drumm the Oldfather. He drew Red Rain and told them how Hilmar Drumm the Cunning had taken the blade from an armored knight with wits and a wooden cudgel. He spoke of ships long lost and battles eight hundred years forgotten, and the crowd grew restive. He spoke and spoke, and then he spoke still more.

 

600- Scouring of Hardhome (By Valyria?)

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

 

Hardhome was once the only settlement approaching a town in the lands beyond the Wall, sheltered on Storrold's Point and commanding a deepwater harbor. But six hundred years ago, it was burned and its people destroyed, though the Watch cannot say for a certainty what happened. 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

With the destruction of the Rhoynar, Valyria soon achieved complete domination of the western half of Essos, from the narrow sea to Slaver's Bay, and from the Summer Sea to the Shivering Sea. Slaves poured into the Freehold and were quickly dispatched beneath the Fourteen Flames to mine the precious gold and silver the freeholders loved so well. Perhaps in preparation for their crossing of the narrow sea, the Valyrians also established their westernmost outpost on the isle that would come to be known as Dragonstone some two hundred years before the Doom. 

 

     Valyria takes Dragonstone

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Yet even so, for the best part of a hundred years after the Doom of Valyria (the rightly named Century of Blood), House Targaryen looked east, not west, and took little interest in the affairs of Westeros.

 

         Osric Stark, LC killed when commanders at Snow Gate and Night fort go to war

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

. Four hundred years before the Conquest. Osric Stark was ten when he was chosen, but he served for sixty years. That's four, my lord. You're not even close to being the youngest ever chosen. You're fifth youngest, so far."

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon VII

did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible.

 

         House Frey installed at Neck to Control movements North or South (By Valyria?)

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

Robb's neck reddened at the rebuke. "Tell me what you mean, Mother," he said meekly.

"The Freys have held the crossing for six hundred years, and for six hundred years they have never failed to exact their toll."

 

                    Quill and tankard open in Old Town

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Quill and Tankard never closed. For six hundred years it had been standing on its island in the Honeywine, and never once had its doors been shut to trade. 

 

500- Gates of Wall sealed

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

"And wildlings, and darker things," said Marsh. "I would not send out hunters, my lord. I would not."

No. You would close our gates forever and seal them up with stone and ice. Half of Castle Black agreed with the Lord Steward's views, he knew. The other half heaped scorn on them. "Seal our gates and plant your fat black arses on the Wall, aye, and the free folk'll come swarming o'er the Bridge o' Skulls or through some gate you thought you'd sealed five hundred years ago," the old forester Dywen had declared loudly over supper, two nights past. 

 

5-400- Valyrian steel blades in Westeros. Mormonts get one, but Lannisters must pay a heavy price for one.

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

The Tarlys were a family old in honor, bannermen to Mace Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden and Warden of the South. The eldest son of Lord Randyll Tarly, Samwell was born heir to rich lands, a strong keep, and a storied two-handed greatsword named Heartsbane, forged of Valyrian steel and passed down from father to son near five hundred years.

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"It is," the Old Bear told him. "It was my father's sword, and his father's before him. The Mormonts have carried it for five centuries. I wielded it in my day and passed it on to my son when I took the black."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. But it was lost little more than a century later, when Tommen II carried it with him when he sailed with his great fleet to ruined Valyria, with the intention of plundering the wealth and sorcery he was sure still remained. The fleet never returned, nor Tommen, nor Brightroar.

 

 

412- House Targaryen exiled 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Of the five dragons who had flown with Aenar the Exile from Valyria, only one survived to Aegon's day: the great beast called Balerion, the Black Dread. The remaining two dragons—Vhagar and Meraxes—were younger, hatched on Dragonstone itself.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks. 

 

400- Doom of Valyria possibly due to Lannister gold to the Faceless Men

 

300- Aegon's Conquest                 

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

"There will be wine at the breakfast, my lord," Sansa said.

"There's wine here. You don't expect me to face my sister sober, surely? It's a new century, my lady. The three hundredth year since Aegon's Conquest."

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Even the start date is a matter of some misconception. Many assume, wrongly, that the reign of King Aegon I Targaryen began on the day he landed at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush, beneath the three hills where the city of King's Landing eventually stood. Not so. The day of Aegon's Landing was celebrated by the king and his descendants, but the Conqueror actually dated the start of his reign from the day he was crowned and anointed in the Starry Sept of Oldtown by the High Septon of the Faith. This coronation took place two years after Aegon's Landing, well after all three of the major battles of the Wars of Conquest had been fought and won. Thus it can be seen that most of Aegon's actual conquering took place from 2-1 BC, Before the Conquest.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Idk how to delete this whole post. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

The Founding of Valyria by the Empire of the Dawn (Flight of the Andals)

The Ghiscaris wars with Valyria.

2000 years ago - 5th and final Ghiscari War (END OF THE LONG NIGHT) - Abandonment of Zamettar

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2000 yrs ago - Andal Invasion of the Vale and Alyssa Arryn

 

 

2000 years ago - The Forging of Dawn

 

 

 

2000- The Rise of Sarnor 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Starting at the end, Sarnor didn't rise 2000 years ago. Their civilization is reported to have endured for 2000 years. But it came to an end thousands of years ago.

Secondly, the Ghiscari wars with Valyria were 5000 years ago, based on written records.

Thirdly, Valyria only rose AFTER the Long Night, not before it. Ghis was the older civilization whose founding predated the Long Night.

Fourthly, based on the available evidence, there indeed seems to be a 2000 year discrepancy in general world history. But this discrepancy merely brings the Long Night forward from 8000 to 6000 years ago, and the Andal arrival from 4000 to around 2000 years ago.

But also bear in mind that the Andal arrival stretched over centuries. So the 2000 years ago date might well be more or less the middle of this migration, with its start going back centuries earlier and its end being centuries later. Hence part of the confusion.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Starting at the end, Sarnor didn't rise 2000 years ago. Their civilization is reported to have endured for 2000 years. But it came to an end thousands of years ago.

Secondly, the Ghiscari wars with Valyria were 5000 years ago, based on written records.

Thirdly, Valyria only rose AFTER the Long Night, not before it. Ghis was the older civilization whose founding predated the Long Night.

Fourthly, based on the available evidence, there indeed seems to be a 2000 year discrepancy in general world history. But this discrepancy merely brings the Long Night forward from 8000 to 6000 years ago, and the Andal arrival from 4000 to around 2000 years ago.

But also bear in mind that the Andal arrival stretched over centuries. So the 2000 years ago date might well be more or less the middle of this migration, with its start going back centuries earlier and its end being centuries later. Hence part of the confusion.

Sic- Debate back on (Original post got posted but half deleted in some weird glitch, then a response before i could delete. Decided to attempt to fix post and continue on)

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

My other thread though hasn't had any debate yet though if you want. 

1-kingdom-1-curse-1-wall

Though, if you believe every thing the Maesters say, it may be hard to digest

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Secondly, the Ghiscari wars with Valyria were 5000 years ago, based on written records.

Thirdly, Valyria only rose AFTER the Long Night, not before it. Ghis was the older civilization whose founding predated the Long Night.

 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

Nymeria refused and took her fleet to sea once again, hoping to find refuge amongst the steaming jungles of Sothoryos. Some settled on Basilisk Point, others beside the glistening green waters of the Zamoyos, amongst quicksands, crocodiles, and rotting, half-drowned trees. Princess Nymeria herself remained with the ships at Zamettar, a Ghiscari colony abandoned for a thousand years, whilst others made their way upriver to the cyclopean ruins of Yeen, haunt of ghouls and spiders.

 

 

 

How did the Ghiscari abandon Zamettar 2000 years ago? IF Ghis fell 5000 years ago, with no other known event's happening till Rhoynish wars and Scouring of Lorath. Even though Valyria turned her attention to the Rhoynar "shortly" after the fall of Ghis. Sure, 3000 years of no activity with any one in Essos. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

 

How did the Ghiscari abandon Zamettar 2000 years ago? IF Ghis fell 5000 years ago, with no other known event's happening till Rhoynish wars and Scouring of Lorath. Even though Valyria turned her attention to the Rhoynar "shortly" after the fall of Ghis. Sure, 3000 years of no activity with any one in Essos. 

Your own quote states that Zamettar had been abandoned by Ghis thousands of years ago. There is no implication that Ghis still occupied Zamettar when Nymeria arrived there. So I'm not sure why you quote this section. It does nothing for your argument, in fact, it contradicts it.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Your own quote states that Zamettar had been abandoned by Ghis thousands of years ago. There is no implication that Ghis still occupied Zamettar when Nymeria arrived there. So I'm not sure why you quote this section. It does nothing for your argument, in fact, it contradicts it.

Lol no. No, its "A Thousand". Like, a nose, a rock, a single digit. 1. 1000 years. It's been abandoned for 1000 years, at the time of Nymeria, 1000 years ago. That puts it at 2000 years. 

[AlaskanSandman]

And to be fair, the OG post had a question mark after the Ghis End of the Long Night. 

It also had quotes for Dawn being forged 2000 years ago, the Andal Invasion, Alyssa Arryn, and Inner Walls of Winterfell (likely all of Winterfell and the Wall?). With quotes showing why these are lined up at this time. Going off dates given by these same Maesters, though passed over like nothing, or flat debated against like in the case of the Andal Invasion.

[AlaskanSandman]

2. You've mentioned that Dawn has an illustrious history -- is there a ballpark figure for how long the Daynes and/or Starfall/Dawn have existed?

Oh, I'd say Dawn goes back a couple thousand years... and before that, things get a little fuzzy anyway.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

[AlaskanSandman]

Since Dawn was forged at the end of the Long Night, and Ghis may have fallen at this same time based on the quote i provided, paints a different picture than the main narrative the Maesters have given us

[direpupy]

37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

How did the Ghiscari abandon Zamettar 2000 years ago? IF Ghis fell 5000 years ago, with no other known event's happening till Rhoynish wars and Scouring of Lorath. Even though Valyria turned her attention to the Rhoynar "shortly" after the fall of Ghis. Sure, 3000 years of no activity with any one in Essos. 

Wel Ghis falling 5000 years ago does not mean the inhabitants of Zammetar are no longer Ghiscari and they could well have survived those 3000 years, as to the reason the did eventually abandon Zamettar i would imagine they are not dissimilar to the reasons everybody eventually abandons Sothoryos.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Wel Ghis falling 5000 years ago does not mean the inhabitants of Zammetar are no longer Ghiscari and they could well have survived those 3000 years, as to the reason the did eventually abandon Zamettar i would imagine they are not dissimilar to the reasons everybody eventually abandons Sothoryos.

Yes, except the histories still dont make sense and 3000 years of silence in Essos is crazy. Im not hear to argue for the Maesters and the known narrative. 

So i would say, though possible. Based on the other clues ive listed, i will imagine this alternate history, as, the established history aside from being bonkers, answers very little. This one, would seem to paint a much clearer picture. 

If your not aware of my other two threads, they're kind of important and tie to this one.

[Free Northman Reborn]

37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol no. No, its "A Thousand". Like, a nose, a rock, a single digit. 1. 1000 years. It's been abandoned for 1000 years, at the time of Nymeria, 1000 years ago. That puts it at 2000 years. 

The Valyrians took Zamettar from the Ghiscari during the 4th Ghiscari War. THAT was 5000 years ago. But it doesn't say that it was abandoned at that point. The Valyrians obviously continued to rule it as a colony for many years after that, until they abandoned it. Whether they were the last people to abandon it, we don't know of course. Maybe they were, or maybe the locals who remained after the Valyrians left continued to eke out an existence there until a thousand years before Nymeria's arrival.

The point is, whoever remained there (whether it be the Valyrians or some locals), appear to have finally given up on it around a thousand years before Nymeria arrived.

Quite simple, really.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Valyrians took Zemettar from the Ghiscari during the 4th Ghiscari War. THAT was 5000 years ago. But it doesn't say that it was abandoned at that point. The Valyrians obviously continued to rule it as a colony for many years after that, until they abandoned it. Whether they were the last people to abandon it, we don't know of course. Maybe they were, or maybe the locals who remained after the Valyrians left continued to eke out an existence there until a thousand years before Nymeria's arrival.

The point is, whoever remained there (whether it be the Valyrians or some locals), appear to have finally given up on it around a thousand years before Nymeria arrived.

Quite simple, really.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

Colonies planted here wither and die; only Zamettar endured for more than a generation, 

 

And yet, it also says none of the colonies lasted long, and that Zamettar alone lasted for more than a generation .

 

 

 

Quote

 

The average age of mothers at birth of their first child was 20 and at the last birth 31, giving a mean of 25.5 years per female generation — considerably above the 20 years often attributed to primitive cultures. Husbands were six to 13 years older, giving a male generational interval of 31 to 38 years.Nov 16, 2016

How long is a generation? Science provides an answer - ISOGG Wiki

 

So even if Valyria did take it in the 4th war, it was abandoned shortly after. Again, hinting that the end of the Ghiscari Wars wasn't that long ago. Quiet simple, really. (And idky it wont let me uncap this?)

Which would make sense why the Walls of Winterfell are being raised and Dawn is being forged. And that  one is straight from George

[Free Northman Reborn]

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

And yet, it also says none of the colonies lasted long, and that Zamettar alone lasted for more than a generation .

 

 

 

So even if Valyria did take it in the 4th war, it was abandoned shortly after. Again, hinting that the end of the Ghiscari Wars wasn't that long ago. Quiet simple, really. (And idky it wont let me uncap this?)

Which would make sense why the Walls of Winterfell are being raised and Dawn is being forged. And that  one is straight from George

I think you need  to read these passages more slowly. That quote does not say that Zamettar ONLY lasted for a bit over a generation. It says that Zamettar is the only colony to last for more than a generation. Implying that all the others lasted for LESS than a generation. But it gives no upper limit for how long Zamettar lasted.

[AlaskanSandman]

Lol yes, i know what it say's. Here

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

There were riches to be found in Sothoryos—gold, gems, rare woods, exotic pelts, queer fruits, and strange spices—but the Rhoynar did not thrive there. The sullen wet heat oppressed their spirits, and swarms of stinging flies spread one disease after another: green fever, the dancing plague, blood boils, weeping sores, sweetrot. The young and very old proved especially vulnerable to such contagions. Even to splash in the river was to court death, for the Zamoyos was infested with schools of carnivorous fish, and tiny worms that laid their eggs in the flesh of swimmers. Two of the new towns on Basilisk Point were raided by slavers, their populaces put to the sword or carried off in chains, whilst Yeen had to contend with attacks from the brindled ghouls of the jungle deeps.

For more than a year the Rhoynar struggled to survive in Sothoryos, until the day when a boat from Zamettar arrived at Yeen to find that every man, woman, and child in that haunted, ruined city had vanished overnight. Then Nymeria summoned her people back to the ships and set sail once again.

For the next three years the Rhoynar wandered the southern seas, seeking a new home. On Naath, the Isle of Butterflies, the peaceful people gave them welcome, but the god that protects that strange land began to strike down the newcomers by the score with a nameless mortal illness, driving them back to their ships. In the Summer Isles, they settled on an uninhabited rock off the eastern shore of Walano, which soon became known as the Isle of Women, but its thin stony soil yielded little food, and many starved. When the sails were raised again, some of the Rhoynar abandoned Nymeria to follow a priestess named Druselka, who claimed to have heard Mother Rhoyne calling her children home...but when Druselka and her followers returned to their old cities, they found their enemies waiting, and most were soon hunted down, slain, or enslaved.

 

Heavily implying it's upper limits.

Your also ignoring the other stuff like Winterfell and Dawn

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think you need  to read these passages more slowly. That quote does not say that Zamettar ONLY lasted for a bit over a generation. It says that Zamettar is the only colony to last for more than a generation. Implying that all the others lasted for LESS than a generation. But it gives no upper limit for how long Zamettar lasted.

I would argue you need to read the books more closely. There is first of all every reason to question the established time line. Their is second of all, every reason to question everything the Maesters say. Thirdly, not a single theory i've seen yet has gotten this deep and not going total tinfoil using quotes. 

Eventually ill put it all together for every one, but right now im trying to take on things piece by piece. Needless to say, the time line is a lie, the myths are connected and more than that, telling a narrative.

[White Ravens]

LOL:  Alternate Facts

"Readers are gullible for believing the fake news of the Maesters.  Sad!"

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol yes, i know what it say's. Here

 

Heavily implying it's upper limits.

Your also ignoring the other stuff like Winterfell and Dawn

I'm not really responding to every fanciful point you raised. Because I don't think they have much substance, to be honest.

With regard to Dawn, though, written records in Westeros only go back to the time of the Andal arrival. Which seems to have been around 2000-3000 years ago. That's why George says things get a bit murky more than a couple of thousand years ago with regard to Dawn. Because the histories before that in WESTEROS are not that clear. However, in Essos, and especially in Ghis, written records go back for 8000 years. It gives you much better sources for ancient events.

As for Winterfell. I must have missed that one. I don't recall what point you made with regard to Winterfell. Other than seeing a whole bunch of attempts to link stuff in many different parts of the world, to some convenient date 2000 years ago.