On Gendry's age and POVs about it

[Lady Dacey]

The Rose thing happened when she was twelve, that's very clear. Red Ronnet was 18. They both tell the exact same story, she was twelve, he had six years in her and they were of a height. Just after that, when she's 13 (she knows Sansa's exact age, she's been with Catelyn for a long time and is looking for the girl now!) she met Renly. At sixteen her father tried to  mach her once more. 

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's very very true! Still doesn't make Arya's line about him being five years older a fact. We have bits and pieces about is all. I do find the most important information Brienne give's us is about his voice. She hears him before ever looking at his face, size, etcetera, and she hears a boy. When she turns, she sees "Renly" and calls Gendry "my lord". So his voice is surely still a boy's voice. 

Maybe he is 4 years older than Arya. Not 3, not 5.

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

"The inn is run by Tansy, while Alyce, Bella, Cass, Helly, Jyzene, and Lanna work there as prostitutes or "peaches"."

Entire brothel is less than a dozen of girls. For example when Arya was staying at that inn, there was 7 females, including its owner.

We don't know for how long Robert was staying there, or how serious were his injuries. But I think that they were not very serious. Based on this:

"Emerging from the Peach when the bells began ringing, Robert slew six men, including Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's friend and former squire, Ser Myles Mooton.^[2] Robert and Jon did not meet on the battlefield according to Harwin,^[2] while Jon recalled that he was nearly slain by Robert on the steps of the town's sept.^[3] "

He killed SIX!!!!! men, and nearly killed Jon Connington.

If his injuries didn't stopped him from killing nearly 7 people, I think they also wouldn't have stopped him from 7 whores. Also for men, when they are in danger, they also become horny. So while Targaryen soldiers were looking for him, the sense of danger gave him an additional spice and adrenaline rush, which only intensified his horndog nature, and his sexual hunger. 

Also Bella not only claims that Robert is her father, in addition to that, the time and place of her conceivement corresponds with time and place where Robert was, and Bella also has Robert's black hair and dark-blue eyes.

That man was a real pig. He had no shame, no bondaries, and no self-consciousness. For example, on the night of his brother's wedding, he not only had sex with a cousin (a widow) of his new sister-in-law, and impregnated her, he also did it in the bed of newlyweds.

So I doubt that thoughts about Lyanna, ever stopped him from fucking around. Lyanna herself was convinced that he won't change, even after they will marry.  

And how would be called a man that fathered 18 bastards? Varys knew for sure about 8 of Robert's children.

Your 1st point is an opinion though.You assume that him killing 7 people while he was injured is anything more than survival.He was injured and men were trying to kill him outside.He was being moved from place to place just ahead of Jon Con's forces.

Die on his feet or stay inside and wait to die on his back.I very much doubt bedding the entire brothel was on his mind.

Additionally,supposedly he screws all these women just before Ned's shows up while his sister was missing and Ned is mum on that? Nahhhhhh.

Plus Bella only has black hair but her having black hair which was common enough for Arya to say "loads of people have black hair." In the weeks leading up to Bella's conception you know how many men Bella's mother slept with? You know how many of them probably have black hair?

Robert being in proximity to a brothel doesn't mean he fathered her.

What Robert became after Lyanna died was a far cry from what he was.From Ned's own testimony we know that Robert changed.

At the point of their bethrothal Robert had one child that is it.

How kids and women he slept with after is irrelevant.Lyanna died and Robert changed that was the moment it went belly up for him.

Again we have a thought from Lyanna at a moment in time when she found out about marrying Robert.

You get no argument from me that Robert to me became a loathsome individual.But he "became" that way.He wasn't always that way.

As to Gendry he is a console baby.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Renly did live in Storms End, we know that, and Tarth is in the Stormlands. It wouldn't take more than a year for him to make it to Tarth

Could be that he went to some other places, including Dorne, and then KL, and stayed at KL for some time. Could be that he traveled all over 7K, or at least went to the most important/interesting places. Like Citadel, Highgarden, Casterly Rock, The Wall, King's Landing, etc. And to Tarth he went in the end of his journey.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Your 1st point is an opinion though.You assume that him killing 7 people while he was injured is anything more than survival.He was injured and men were trying to kill him outside.He was being moved from place to place just ahead of Jon Con's forces.

Die on his feet or stay inside and wait to die on his back.I very much doubt bedding the entire brothel was on his mind.

"The royalists had not found Robert when the forces of Lords Eddard Stark and Hoster Tully reached Stoney Sept.^[2] The town's septons rang bronze and silver bells to warn the smallfolk to remain indoors.^[4] The rebels stormed Stoney Sept's walls and attacked Jon Connington's army, who responded by fighting back fiercely in streets, in alleys, and on rooftops. Jon wounded Hoster^[2] and killed Lord Jon Arryn's gallant cousin and heir,^[5] Ser Denys Arryn, with an axe.^[6]

Emerging from the Peach when the bells began ringing, Robert slew six men, including Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's friend and former squire, Ser Myles Mooton.^[2] Robert and Jon did not meet on the battlefield according to Harwin,^[2] while Jon recalled that he was nearly slain by Robert on the steps of the town's sept."

Enemies didn't found Robert. He came out on his own, after Ned arrived with his people. So he wasn't facing a choise either to fight, or to wait for his enemies to come and kill him. He came out on his own, because he wanted to join in the fight, that was already going on. Also he attacked Jon Con on steps of sept. How do you think, was that brothel/inn located close to sept, or it was away from it? Considering that brothel is a place of sin, while sept is place where people pray, I doubt that they were located nearby. So it seems that when Robert heard the Bells, and realised that his people arrived, he came out of that brothel, went to place where his people were fighting against enemies, and joined their fight. It wasn't a matter of fighting for his survival, he just wanted to join the fun.

"The heart of Stoney Sept is a market square with a fountain in the shape of a leaping trout. A brothel known as the Peach is located on the east side of the market.^[3]

The town's namesake old sept sits on a hill."

[LynnS]

I'm convinced that Gendry is Robert's bastard because I think Varys hid him with Tobho Mott in the first place:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VI

"The truth now," Ned urged. "The streets are full of strong boys. The day you take on an apprentice without a fee will be the day the Wall comes down. Who paid for him?"

"A lord," the master said reluctantly. "He gave no name, and wore no sigil on his coat. He paid in gold, twice the customary sum, and said he was paying once for the boy, and once for my silence."

"Describe him."

"He was stout, round of shoulder, not so tall as you. Brown beard, but there was a bit of red in it, I'll swear. He wore a rich cloak, that I do remember, heavy purple velvet worked with silver threads, but the hood shadowed his face and I never did see him clear." He hesitated a moment. "My lord, I want no trouble."

The Arya overhears Varys and Mopatis:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Arya III

Arya peered over the edge and felt the cold black breath on her face. Far below, she saw the light of a single torch, small as the flame of a candle. Two men, she made out. Their shadows writhed against the sides of the well, tall as giants. She could hear their voices, echoing up the shaft.

"… found one bastard," one said. "The rest will come soon. A day, two days, a fortnight …"

"And when he learns the truth, what will he do?" a second voice asked in the liquid accents of the Free Cities.

 

 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Bella claims to be Robert's bastard based on a rumor that while he was running for his life and injured he slept with an entire brothel.

I don't believe Robert slept around on Lyanna while believing she was missing.There is no indication that he disrespected "her" in that way at all.His love for her and for Ned would have ensured that.

IMO when Bobby B found out about Lyanna being dead Gendry's mom was the first in a line of many consolidating moments.

Given that she was a tavern wench in KL and Robert was in the capital after the sack.Probably there when he heard the news...perfect storm.

Good point; in the appendix from Storm and onwards under the King on the Iron Throne and under "baseborn siblings", Mya, Gendry and Edric are listed, but Bella isn't.

This could mean that GRRM is telling us that Bella isn't Robert's and why should Bella tell anyone that she isn't? She could just be some random prostitute who benefits greatly from people thinking that she's the late king's bastard. We don't know her age or even if Bella is her real name and Robert isn't the only man on Planetos who has black hair.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Good point; in the appendix from Storm and onwards under the King on the Iron Throne and under "baseborn siblings", Mya, Gendry and Edric are listed, but Bella isn't.

This could mean that GRRM is telling us that Bella isn't Robert's and why should Bella tell anyone that she isn't? She could just be some random prostitute who benefits greatly from people thinking that she's the late king's bastard. We don't know her age or even if Bella is her real name and Robert isn't the only man on Planetos who has black hair.

Or she wouldn't benefit. Just ask Barra.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Or she wouldn't benefit. Just ask Barra.

When I say she would benefit, I mean she would benefit with her customers; women can sell their virginity for a very high prize and maybe Bella would be able to get her customers to pay a little bit more and claim something like "have you ever f*****d a king's daughter or a princess?". Honestly, prostitutes can raise their prizes for a bunch of reasons.

[Lady Dacey]

17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Maybe he is 4 years older than Arya. Not 3, not 5.

Could be. I'm not sure how old he is. My point is precisely that no one can know, there's no reliable source of information on it...

[Lady Dacey]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm convinced that Gendry is Robert's bastard because I think Varys hid him with Tobho Mott in the first place:

The Arya overhears Varys and Mopatis:

 

Does anyone dispute this? 

[Lady Dacey]

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Good point; in the appendix from Storm and onwards under the King on the Iron Throne and under "baseborn siblings", Mya, Gendry and Edric are listed, but Bella isn't.

This could mean that GRRM is telling us that Bella isn't Robert's and why should Bella tell anyone that she isn't? She could just be some random prostitute who benefits greatly from people thinking that she's the late king's bastard. We don't know her age or even if Bella is her real name and Robert isn't the only man on Planetos who has black hair.

 I believe the appendix contains "official" information, as if it were a maester's account of things? Like "in universe known facts". Hence those bastards are the only one named: Varys and Stannis and late Jon Arryn knew about Mya, Gendry and Eric... but they never heard of Bella. 

I don't think it matters one bit if Bella is Robert's or not, but I don't doubt one second the fact that he did have sex with her mom and many others at the Peach...

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Does anyone dispute this? 

We only have Arya's testimony after hearing a secret conversation between the master of spies and the kidnapper of children to go on.  But I'd say it's difficult to dispute given the source.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

27 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

 I believe the appendix contains "official" information, as if it were a maester's account of things? Like "in universe known facts". Hence those bastards are the only one named: Varys and Stannis and late Jon Arryn knew about Mya, Gendry and Eric... but they never heard of Bella. 

I don't think it matters one bit if Bella is Robert's or not, but I don't doubt one second the fact that he did have sex with her mom and many others at the Peach...

I don't think Varys, Jon or Stannis ever told anyone who Robert's bastards are, much less wrote down their names. Mya and Edric are the only ones that people officially know about and we can assume that the twins in Lannisport that Cersei killed are, as far as the people know, only a rumour.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

We only have Arya's testimony after hearing a secret conversation between the master of spies and the kidnapper of children to go on.  But I'd say it's difficult to dispute given the source.

Ned meets Gendry, he thinks to himself the boy is the King's bastard and also tells Mott "you know who he is"... We also know from Gendry's talk to Ned that he was visited by Stannis and Arryn. And there's Brienne as well. So the overheard conversation between Illyrio and Varys is not the only source of Gendry being Robert's son. And there's the appendix  

 

 

edit to add further evidence about Varys: Yoren states a man came with a boy and a sack of coins and told him to wait for the King's Hand. Who else would make such arrangements if not the spider? 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I don't think Varys, Jon or Stannis ever told anyone who Robert's bastards are, much less wrote down their names. Mya and Edric are the only ones that people officially know about and we can assume that the twins in Lannisport that Cersei killed are, as far as the people know, only a rumour.

I guess the maester's comparison was stupid of me. My main point would be "known in universe". We get "Alayne Stone (Sansa Stark under disguise)" in the appendix don't we? I'm not sure anymore, but I think so. That's never been written down either. Very few people know the truth, but they do know: Bealish, Sanse herself, Lysa, the Kettleback father... Bella on the other hand, well, the only POV character she's ever seen was Arya, and she claims to be a king's daugher. She may be or may not be, I just think "not being in the appendix" doesn't really disprove it. In fact I think Arya's comparison of Gendry's and Bella's hair indicate that she is probably robert's daughter - black hair is commom, true enough, but it's not only about color, but overall look, texture, fullness... they seem to have the same type of hair, no only the same hair color. 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Ned meets Gendry, he thinks to himself the boy is the King's bastard and also tells Mott "you know who he is"... We also know from Gendry's talk to Ned that he was visited by Stannis and Arryn. And there's Brienne as well. So the overheard conversation between Illyrio and Varys is not the only source of Gendry being Robert's son. 

Yes, all true.  I didn't say Varys was the only source.  I just find him a convincing source on top of everything else.

[bent branch]

You've convinced me. It will take some solid evidence to change my mind. It is a joy to read a well constructed argument.

The Wiki is a minefield for the unwary. For instance, in giving Stannis' age there is really only one statement in the book that matters. That statement is that Stannis was a bare year younger than Robert. The reason this statement takes precedence over all the other statements about the difference in age between Robert and Stannis is that GRRM is trying to say something about the relationship between Robert and Stannis. For people born before there was reliable birth control, saying that a pair of siblings were only a year apart was a type of head's up to keep an unwary individual from being caught in the especially complex relationship between these types of siblings. I sometimes wonder if such a line is lost on those born in an era where siblings born around a year apart are much less common. (Also, siblings with this type of spacing are not the same as twins.) This is the type of situation where GRRM warns that the reader shouldn't try to place too strict of a timeline on the story. GRRM certainly isn't. Having said that, I do respect most of the people who gallantly try to bring more order to the story. It's just that sometimes the important statements can be lost in the shuffle (like the boy's voice and the fact Robert couldn't have sired Gendry until KL fell).

 

 

[AryaUnderfoot33]

The original poster caught a ton of good details. I've always been a bit puzzled by the certainty that Gendry is definitely 5 years older, based off one thought from Arya in the heat of the moment when GRRM is known for unreliable narrators. I think 3 years older than Arya makes more sense. To add to Brienne's side: 

The common room was crawling with children...older here meant ten or twelve, Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown.  

As said before if he was five years older than 11-almost-12yo Arya he'd be 16/17 and so by Westeros standards is a "man grown." And given we know Gendry is strong for his age and takes after the big, well-built Robert, it seems unlikely Brienne is underestimating his age and thinking he's not yet a man when he's already 16+. More likely Gendry is actually around 14 but looks a bit older. 

 

[Lady Dacey]

13 hours ago, bent branch said:

You've convinced me. It will take some solid evidence to change my mind. It is a joy to read a well constructed argument.

Thank you!!