US Politics: What's a couple hundred billion between friends?

[DireWolfSpirit]

Alt Right logo fix- https://www.thenation.com/article/alt-right-logo-fix/

https://www.thenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MelindaBeck-img.jpg

 

 

 

[A True Kaniggit]

15 hours ago, dmc515 said:

There are a number of studies identifying a contagion effect on certain issues between family members, albeit these usually focus on homosexuals or minorities - don't recall any changing views on economic issues.  Plus, we know that family is by far the most important aspect of an individual's political socialization (with education a distant second), so it's certainly worth a try.  However, don't think much can be done about neighbors or friends - unless the latter are really close, in which case they're functionally family anyway.  The internet ate the idea of social capital.

More importantly, there's nothing productive to be had by being a dick towards and calling your family members terrible people.  Of course that's not going to do anything to change their minds.  All it does is make the person doing so feel better about themselves if they strangely feel like it's righteous and a social imperative, which seems to be a psychological defect in and of itself.

Yeah. Changing people's minds on the economic front can be tricky. The most success I've had is by showing them that trickle down is wrong by using a very simplified explanation. The explanation usually goes something like this: (Note,  I'm making these numbers up on the spot, and I'm using very simple language)

"So let's say you have someone that brings in $125,000,000 a year while banking $60,000,000 of it (spending the other $65,000,000). If you give them a tax break of $25,000,000 do you really think they're going to use that extra money to hire new employees/give current employees raises? No, if they wanted to do such a thing they would've done it with some of the $60,000,000 they were already banking every year. Instead that $25,000,000 is going straight into the millionaires bank account without helping the economy. Now what happens if instead you use that $25,000,000 to give 12,500 people who only make $28,000 a year, a $2,000 tax break? That $2,000 actually makes a difference in their lives. Not only does it take some of the stress off of trying to live paycheck to paycheck, but said $25,000,000 tax break actually gets spent, thus spurring growth, instead of just sitting in some millionaires bank account"

Highly simplified I know. But this sort of argument can actually change the minds of some people that believe the Republican myth of "trickle down economics".

[Yukle]

27 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Now what happens if instead you use that $25,000,000 to give 12,500 people who only make $28,000 a year, a $2,000 tax break?

I understand your point and agree for the most part, except for this: America's taxes are much too low. Income tax rates and corporate tax rates mask how few people actually pay any taxes. Very little of anything is fully funded. For all of their hatred of socialism, the plain and simple truth is that when it comes to borrowing for large infrastructure projects, nobody can accrue debt as cheaply as a government. Ordinarily it is because a government will also be the most reliable institution to pay it back. Although in the USA that has changed of late.

I think the same thing is now happening in most liberal democracies. Tax cuts are nothing to do with economics and everything to do with being re-elected. They demand tax cuts and then wonder why education, healthcare, infrastructure and disaster relief are now underfunded, almost as if the taxes were being put to good use after all...

[A True Kaniggit]

40 minutes ago, Yukle said:

I understand your point and agree for the most part, except for this: America's taxes are much too low. Income tax rates and corporate tax rates mask how few people actually pay any taxes. Very little of anything is fully funded. For all of their hatred of socialism, the plain and simple truth is that when it comes to borrowing for large infrastructure projects, nobody can accrue debt as cheaply as a government. Ordinarily it is because a government will also be the most reliable institution to pay it back. Although in the USA that has changed of late.

I think the same thing is now happening in most liberal democracies. Tax cuts are nothing to do with economics and everything to do with being re-elected. They demand tax cuts and then wonder why education, healthcare, infrastructure and disaster relief are now underfunded, almost as if the taxes were being put to good use after all...

But I'd think you'd agree, raising taxes on people who already can't make ends meet is not the way to go. 

[Morpheus]

As predicted, the right is really focusing on the guy Muller fired over the summer for writing anti-Trump texts. Trump himself is retweeting about a biased investigation. Even Captain Perjury is weighing in on the "seriousness" of the accusations, he must not recall his recusal

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/amp/mueller-reassigned-top-fbi-agent-russian-probe-over-anti-trump-n825926

This may be the backdoor they use to end the investigation. Right wing news organizations are pushing this as the big story, not Flynn, so the deplorables are being primed.

[Martell Spy]

3 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

But I'd think you'd agree, raising taxes on people who already can't make ends meet is not the way to go. 

Well you could lower their taxes. You can even use the tax system to make payments to people that aren't paying much taxes. However, in order to do this, it helps to first resist the urge to give enormous tax cuts to the rich every ten years or so.

Trump Wants to Dismantle Elizabeth Warren's Agency. Good Luck With That.
The CFPB is the most powerful new agency in decades—and stacked with loyalists.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/03/trump-cfpb-elizabeth-warren-215997

[Mexal]

20 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

As predicted, the right is really focusing on the guy Muller fired over the summer for writing anti-Trump texts. Trump himself is retweeting about a biased investigation. Even Captain Perjury is weighing in on the "seriousness" of the accusations, he must not recall his recusal

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/amp/mueller-reassigned-top-fbi-agent-russian-probe-over-anti-trump-n825926

This may be the backdoor they use to end the investigation. Right wing news organizations are pushing this as the big story, not Flynn, so the deplorables are being primed.

Good luck to them. I hope the IG is also investigating the NY Field Office and the 1000 leaks that came out of during the email investigation as well. If they're going to give a long time professional shit for making comments about the debate that were anti-Trump, then they better be investigating Giuliani knowing everything that was happening in the NYO.

On the other side of the coin, you also have Mueller, who once hearing about this, removed him from his investigation, which was 6 months ago. So if this happened 5-6 months ago, why is it being leaked right now, at this point in time? It's because just recently, he talked with the House Intel Committee and Nunes likely leaked it.

[Martell Spy]

2018 Senate Overview: The Pro-GOP Landscape Is Turning Blue

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/2018-senate-overview-the-pro-gop-landscape-is-turning-blue.html

As Pressure Mounts, Trump Predictably Lashes Out Against Hillary Clinton Yet Again

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/12/03/as_pressure_mounts_trump_predictably_lashes_out_against_hillary_clinton.html

[Dr. Pepper]

33 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

As predicted, the right is really focusing on the guy Muller fired over the summer for writing anti-Trump texts. Trump himself is retweeting about a biased investigation. Even Captain Perjury is weighing in on the "seriousness" of the accusations, he must not recall his recusal

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/amp/mueller-reassigned-top-fbi-agent-russian-probe-over-anti-trump-n825926

This may be the backdoor they use to end the investigation. Right wing news organizations are pushing this as the big story, not Flynn, so the deplorables are being primed.

Yup, anything that comes up for Kushner or the Trump family will be shrugged off as a politically motivated attack on the royal family.  All the weekend tweets and ring wing news stories is just primer for the big fight.

Anyone else feeling pretty hopeless about it all right now?  I feel like I need to be stocking up on water and supplies, but can't even get motivated enough to do that.  

[LongRider]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Anyone else feeling pretty hopeless about it all right now?  I feel like I need to be stocking up on water and supplies, but can't even get motivated enough to do that. 

Don't forget cigarettes, liquor and condoms, good items for trading.

[Dr. Pepper]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Don't forget cigarettes, liquor and condoms, good items for trading.

Lol, I read the first part of that sentence and was like "um wtf, I use none of these".  

But trading, yes.  Maybe i should also go start loading up on prescriptions of BC.  Don't need that either, but the trading.

[Martell Spy]

4 winners and 3 losers in the Senate tax bill
Winner: corporations. Loser: charities.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/2/16705382/winners-losers-senate-republican-tax-bill

[LongRider]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Lol, I read the first part of that sentence and was like "um wtf, I use none of these".  

But trading, yes.  Maybe i should also go start loading up on prescriptions of BC.  Don't need that either, but the trading.

No, I don't use those either, but when regular dollars just won't do, a few sundry items can go along way.  Same with diapers and other hygiene items.  LOL, lookout or you'll have the biggest stash of stuff in the neighborhood.

[OldGimletEye]

On 12/3/2017 at 6:10 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

"So let's say you have someone that brings in $125,000,000 a year while banking $60,000,000 of it (spending the other $65,000,000). If you give them a tax break of $25,000,000 do you really think they're going to use that extra money to hire new employees/give current employees raises? No, if they wanted to do such a thing they would've done it with some of the $60,000,000 they were already banking every year. Instead that $25,000,000 is going straight into the millionaires bank account without helping the economy. Now what happens if instead you use that $25,000,000 to give 12,500 people who only make $28,000 a year, a $2,000 tax break? That $2,000 actually makes a difference in their lives. Not only does it take some of the stress off of trying to live paycheck to paycheck, but said $25,000,000 tax break actually gets spent, thus spurring growth, instead of just sitting in some millionaires bank account"

Highly simplified I know. But this sort of argument can actually change the minds of some people that believe the Republican myth of "trickle down economics".

Defeating conservative sorts of people's trickle down arguments is fairly easy.

Now this might make me a bit o' prick, but whenever I've had this argument with conservative sorts of people I know, I will generally set for them what the old Soviet Army called a fire sac. And the way I bait them into it is by asking, "what is the empirical evidence for this?" Cause I know they will fall for it every time. I almost even feel guilty about it cause I know they've gotten all their information from Fox News and by reading Thomas Sowell, and accordingly will just stumble right on into the little trap utterly clueless.

And I know what the answer will be. It's something like, "well see, back in the 1980s Reagan got elected and he cut taxes..blah, blah, blah..."  And at that point, it isn't hard to close the trap behind them and figuratively speaking start calling in the corps artillery, leaving conservative sorts of people bewildered, dazed, and confused. Because the recovery in the 1980s was really about monetary policy and not supply side magic. And when conservative sorts of people try to fight their way out of the trap they just walked into, I'll just keep turning the screws inviting them take a look at GDP numbers and the Federal Funds rate, and paper's like Martin Feldstein's old paper, among others. At that point, I find conservative sorts of people generally quickly lose interest in talking about "Obummer! Gold Standard! Tax Cuts!" and decide to talk about the weather or college football or something.

[Martell Spy]

Looks like Trump has figured out this investigation isn't going away by Christmas.

Trump Goes After FBI in Morning Tweetstorm

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/trump-goes-after-fbi-in-morning-tweetstorm.html

SNL’s Hillary Clinton Haunts (and Taunts) Donald Trump: ‘Lock Him Up!’
‘Saturday Night Live’ opened with a nod to ‘A Christmas Carol,’ with Alec Baldwin’s Trump met by three “spirits” in the Oval Office.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/snls-hillary-clinton-haunts-donald-trump-lock-him-up

[A True Kaniggit]

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Defeating conservative sorts of people's trickle down arguments is fairly easy.

Now this might make me a bit o' prick, but whenever I've had this argument with conservative sorts of people I know, I will generally set for them what the old Soviet Army called a fire sac. And the way I bait them into it is by asking, "what is the empirical evidence for this?" Cause I know they will fall for it every time. I almost even feel guilty about it cause I know they've gotten all their information from Fox News and by reading Thomas Sowell, and accordingly will just stumble right on into the little trap utterly clueless.

And I know what the answer will be. It's something like, "well see, back in the 1980s Reagan got elected and he cut taxes..blah, blah, blah..."  And at that point, it isn't hard to close the trap behind them and figuratively speaking start calling in the corps artillery, leaving conservative sorts of people bewildered, dazed, and confused. Because the recovery in the 1980s was really about monetary policy and not supply side magic. And when conservative sorts of people try to fight their way out of the trap they just walked into, I'll just keep turning the screws inviting them take a look at GDP numbers and the Federal Funds rate, and paper's like Martin Feldstein's old paper, among others. At that point, I find conservative sorts of people generally quickly lose interest in talking about "Obummer! Gold Standard! Tax Cuts!" and decide to talk about the weather or college football or something.

But my goal isn't to embarrass them and get them to talk about the weather or college football or something. My goal is to show them in an obvious, inoffensive way that what they've been led to believe since birth is wrong, and that it's a good idea to change their voting habits.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Don't forget cigarettes, liquor and condoms, good items for trading.

How about MAGA hats?

I mean I just figure even if a Trump  apocalypse happens, there will still be people believing he's just the best thing ever and will trade their last drop of water or last bite of food for a MAGA hat.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

But my goal isn't to embarrass them and get them to talk about the weather or college football or something. My goal is to show them in an obvious, inoffensive way that what they've been led to believe since birth is wrong, and that it's a good idea to change their voting habits.

This will always depend on the situation in your in. But sometimes embarrassment and ridicule works. Now, I don't know what kind of conservative sorts of people you deal with, but the ones I've dealt with have been raised to think that liberals are there to be their whipping boys and everything that is "liberal" is illegitimate, aided and abetted by some liberals that decide to call themselves "progressives".

I've found at times that by being tough with conservatives that they end up having a new found appreciation for "civility".

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

How about MAGA hats?

I mean I just figure even if a Trump  apocalypse happens, there will still be people believing he's just the best thing ever and will trade their last drop of water or last bite of food for a MAGA hat.

I see your point, but that's just a bit too much for me.  But then, down south it just might work.  Don't see@Dr. Pepper being able to bring herself to buy any tho, but of course, I could be wrong.  

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

I see your point, but that's just a bit too much for me.  But then, down south it just might work.  Don't see@Dr. Pepper being able to bring herself to buy any tho, but of course, I could be wrong.  

Yeah, I guess I would feel like a bit of scum bucket if I did that.