US Politics: What's a couple hundred billion between friends?

[Martell Spy]

Congress faces frantic week with possible shutdown, taxes, Russia
Sexual harassment scandal and gun bills also complicate the picture.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/03/congress-shutdown-taxes-russia-276804

Report: Trump Tries to Hide Plans and Calls From John Kelly

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/report-trump-tries-to-hide-plans-and-calls-from-john-kelly.html

[Swordfish]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I don't see why there would be schadenfreude, given that college educated voted significantly more for Democrats than Republicans. I don't think you understand what that word means. 

I think he understands it very well.  i don't think you understand who he is suggesting is feeling the schadenfreude.

[Shryke]

8 hours ago, Mexal said:

Another good thread worth reading.

TLDR: People don't believe the GOP is as bad as they are because they cannot believe the GOP would be as bad as they are.

 

Yeah, that's what happens when you become as cartoonishly evil as the right-wing are. I remember first hearing this shit back during the Romney campaign.

[Shryke]

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

There must be quite a bit of schadenfreude regarding college students and college graduates targeted by this tax plan. The majority of the college-educated have abandoned the working class hand hoped that it's only the latter who would be screwed (as was the case for the past couple of decades). Of course, it doesn't work that way and now the time has come to pay up.

Dude, read a history book. If you wanna try and paint this picture, then the "working class" made this move 50 years ago when they slit their own throats over women and blacks wanting less unequal rights. The rural and the working class picked social issues over economic ones and made this move a LONG LONG time ago.

[mcbigski]

11 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

4 winners and 3 losers in the Senate tax bill
Winner: corporations. Loser: charities.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/2/16705382/winners-losers-senate-republican-tax-bill

Now admittedly I dont read vox religiously (because I think they are partisan left wing hacks, who will probably be second against the wall when the revolution comes), but if they are making the argument that tax relief for foreign earnings creates a moral hazard...

"They also offer a much lower rate for companies that decide to bring back profits currently parked overseas; this corporate tax “holiday” encourages future tax evasion by setting a precedent that evasion will be rewarded with special breaks to bring the money back."

...whats their editorial take on immigration amnesty?

[Mexal]

4 hours ago, Swordfish said:

oh yeah...  i forgot...  The democrats are the party of the people, who steadfastly oppose evil, rampant capitalism at every turn.  they've all become rich IN SPITE of their opposition to BIG MONEY.

Apologies, i don't know what i was thinking.

 

I didn’t say they were against big money. I said they didn’t ask for this tax cut. If you want to use them as an example of beneficiaries, that’s fine, but don’t imply they are driving the redistribution of wealth. That’s Trump and his cronies in the GOP, not the big bad Democrats. Saying they benefit from this is disingenuous when they don’t actually want it and think it’s bad for the country (which pretty much every economic model agrees with including Goldman Sachs).

[Shryke]

31 minutes ago, mcbigski said:

Now admittedly I dont read vox religiously (because I think they are partisan left wing hacks, who will probably be second against the wall when the revolution comes), but if they are making the argument that tax relief for foreign earnings creates a moral hazard...

"They also offer a much lower rate for companies that decide to bring back profits currently parked overseas; this corporate tax “holiday” encourages future tax evasion by setting a precedent that evasion will be rewarded with special breaks to bring the money back."

...whats their editorial take on immigration amnesty?

Probably that immigration is a net positive to the US economy.

[ThinkerX]

If the republicans are counting on this tax bill to help them with the mid term elections (and 2020) they may have miscalculated very badly.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/i-don-t-think-it-s-going-to-help-in-a-pro-trump-area-many-voters-are-skeptical-of-gop-tax-plan/ar-BBG7wac?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580

 

Only a third of the republicans seem thrilled with the 'tax cuts.'  Most seem to view it as a giveaway to the rich.  Factor in the rest of the stuff in that bill, and literal lynch mobs are looking realistically possible.   If the Democratic Party displays something resembling competence, they could take both houses.  ::waits for others to sneer::

 

 

[Shryke]

8 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I didn’t say they were against big money. I said they didn’t ask for this tax cut. If you want to use them as an example of beneficiaries, that’s fine, but don’t imply they are driving the redistribution of wealth. That’s Trump and his cronies in the GOP, not the big bad Democrats. Saying they benefit from this is disingenuous when they don’t actually want it and think it’s bad for the country (which pretty much every economic model agrees with including Goldman Sachs).

He's pounding the table cause he's got nothing else.

[Shryke]

Just now, ThinkerX said:

If the republicans are counting on this tax bill to help them with the mid term elections (and 2020) they may have miscalculated very badly.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/i-don-t-think-it-s-going-to-help-in-a-pro-trump-area-many-voters-are-skeptical-of-gop-tax-plan/ar-BBG7wac?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580

 

Only a third of the republicans seem thrilled with the 'tax cuts.'  Most seem to view it as a giveaway to the rich.  Factor in the rest of the stuff in that bill, and literal lynch mobs are looking realistically possible.   If the Democratic Party displays something resembling competence, they could take both houses.  ::waits for others to sneer::

 

 

They aren't counting on it to help them. They are counting on it appeasing the donors that fund them. It's what those donors paid for and they wanted it delivered.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

If the republicans are counting on this tax bill to help them with the mid term elections (and 2020) they may have miscalculated very badly.

Yeah, like Shryke said, they are counting on it satisfying their donors.  That, in turn, will help them in the midterms by keeping the money flow going - which is pretty damn essential because right now they are at quite the disadvantage in most competitive seats (not counting the RNC vs. DNC fundraising, which is a whole other ball of wax).

[ThinkerX]

6 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah, like Shryke said, they are counting on it satisfying their donors.  That, in turn, will help them in the midterms by keeping the money flow going - which is pretty damn essential because right now they are at quite the disadvantage in most competitive seats (not counting the RNC vs. DNC fundraising, which is a whole other ball of wax).

I should have been clearer.  Even with the money influx, the republican party still has the potential to lose big in the midterms - as in both houses - if the Democratic Party displays something resembling competence.

[DMC]

32 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

I should have been clearer.  Even with the money influx, the republican party still has the potential to lose big in the midterms - as in both houses - if the Democratic Party displays something resembling competence.

Agreed.  What's more - while tax policy usually is not a salient issue with the public, this bill is particularly unpopular and may well do damage with, ya know, actual voters.

[Martell Spy]

Trump moves to block Romney from the Senate
The president is working hard to persuade 83-year-old Sen. Orrin Hatch to run for reelection, and Mitt isn't happy about it, people close to him say.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/03/trump-mitt-romney-utah-senate-hatch-276805

[Seli]

6 hours ago, mcbigski said:

Now admittedly I dont read vox religiously (because I think they are partisan left wing hacks, who will probably be second against the wall when the revolution comes), but if they are making the argument that tax relief for foreign earnings creates a moral hazard...

"They also offer a much lower rate for companies that decide to bring back profits currently parked overseas; this corporate tax “holiday” encourages future tax evasion by setting a precedent that evasion will be rewarded with special breaks to bring the money back."

...whats their editorial take on immigration amnesty?

No idea. But undocumented migrants are a net positive to the US economy, while keeping foreign profits abroad is likely a net negative. I don't see how you can compare them.

[OldGimletEye]

On 12/3/2017 at 11:01 PM, mcbigski said:

Now admittedly I dont read vox religiously (because I think they are partisan left wing hacks, who will probably be second against the wall when the revolution comes),

Unlike Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, which are high quality sources of information. With those kinds of sources of information, no wonder it's difficult to defeat conservative arguments. I guess the rest of us should just pack it up and take it on in.

On 12/3/2017 at 11:01 PM, mcbigski said:

"They also offer a much lower rate for companies that decide to bring back profits currently parked overseas; this corporate tax “holiday” encourages future tax evasion by setting a precedent that evasion will be rewarded with special breaks to bring the money back."

...whats their editorial take on immigration amnesty?

1. As others have stated, immigration tends to be a net positive to the economy.

2. It's just not feasible to throw 11 million people out of the country. No sane person thinks this is possible. And it is utterly cruel. And some communities would be virtually destroyed.

3. The macroeconomic and demographic factors which lead to a large number of Mexican immigrants to flee their country and come to the United States are largely over, it would seem. Evidently, the birth rate is declining there and overall the overall standard of living seems to be improving. Donald Trump's wall was always a dumb idea. And when that flamin' orange idiot started up with his wall nonsense, fact is that the number of undocumented workers had largely stabilized. He was literally trying to fight the last war. But, given, the fact that he is such a flamin' idiot, he probably didn't hear about that.

4. Corporations are not people even if Mitt "I was born on third base but thought I hit a triple and 47% of Americans are losers" Romney says so.

5. There is simply no economic case to give a tax holiday, even if the clowns at the business roundtable say so. The last time this was tried, it didn't work.And if there were a bunch of investments to make, businesses would be doing them, the tax holiday notwithstanding. If there were a strong reason to think that the 2 trillion dollars or so, held off shore, would find its way into investment, one then might consider the trade off between a tax holiday and moral hazard issues. But, there is no serious trade off to be made here. Accordingly the moral hazard logic is pretty strong here.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 12/2/2017 at 9:27 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

Only if you ignore reality. I'm living proof people can change from the way they were raised.

Who knows? Maybe if over the years you'd actually tried talking to people, instead of verbally abusing them, you could've shown them the error of their ways. That's what happened to me. Maybe if thousands of people like you had done the same, 2016 could've been different.

 

On 12/2/2017 at 9:18 AM, Sword of Doom said:

Nah, my mantra is stop fucking enabling them by still being friendly with them. That shows there is no repercussion for being a piece of shit. It makes them think there is nothing wrong with supporting a party that is extremely bigoted and is now adding pedophilia apologism to the list of reasons why they are a shit.  And make no mistake, anyone that still is a republican and votes republican is a piece of garbage.

 

People can change Sword, but they typically do not change from being brow beaten. Call it intellectual circle jerking if you want, but for those of us who were once on the other side, we understand all too well that anger that was directed at us by the superior left which made any chance at reflection infinitely more difficult from a defensive position. I was a HUGE flag waver once. It wasn't through anger and isolation that I changed. It was through talking through things with more rational people.

People are not garbage for the most part. They are products of their families, their own long lives of intersecting misery that you or I cannot understand, and to call them garbage is dangerous ground to walk on. We have to understand where people are coming from, how they think, try to help them through see the damaging ways they think and approach the world. Not all of them are garbage and evil. Some of them are just people who need time.

I know things are grim for us right now. I'm a single dad working through a PhD program, and these tax cuts seem deathly grim to me. But I still am not angry at people for being categorically misled their entire lives.

[Morpheus]

Trump was just on TV saying it is sad that Flynn's life was destroyed for lying once to the FBI while Clinton lied "many times" and faces no consequences........

Trump's lawyer says  the president cannot obstruct justice....

Meanwhile on twitter, he has given his fullest endorsement for Roy Moore and Mitch McConnell appears to have walked back the idea of removing Moore from office if he wins and has jumped on the "let the people of Alabama decide" train.

Don't know about Republican voters, but the Republican president and congressional leadership are most definitely garbage.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Morpheus said:

but the Republican president and congressional leadership are most definitely garbage.

Yes they are. And I hope someone goes in and takes out the trash soon.

[denstorebog]

I'm at the point where I'd give my left elbow for Jones to win. Not only for the sake of rebalancing the Senate a bit and improving odds of taking it back later, but it would be such an immense slap in the face to Trump, Bannon and the GOP. It would force the latter to reconsider their strategy going forward.

Currently, the things Jones has going against him are the polls and the inbred nature of Alabama. Plus, Trump is now actively endorsing and campaigning for Moore, which I doubt will hurt Moore.

The things he has going for him are

• Massive ground game, plus Moore has pretty much disappeared the last weeks. In contrast, Doug Jones managed to visit nine different churches on Sunday alone.
• Massive fundraising advantage, plus Moore's campaign is severely understaffed at the moment.
• The polling average shows Jones behind by less than Northam ended up overperforming compared to the polls, even his own internal ones.
• A couple of dark horse effects. There are over 100k people with a criminal record who have had their voting rights restored, and there's been a massive effort underway to notify them about this. Also, Lee Busby, I guess?