S John Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 "Flynn is prepared to testify President Trump directed him to make contact with Russians." OK, what does this even mean though. Trump directing Flynn to establish contact is not illegal in itself, no? Clearly there is more to the story than Trump & Co. let on, but Trump lying is not a surprise to anyone, even his supporters. I'm not getting my hopes up until I know the content of these overtures to the Russians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 1 minute ago, S John said: "Flynn is prepared to testify President Trump directed him to make contact with Russians." OK, what does this even mean though. Trump directing Flynn to establish contact is not illegal in itself, no? Clearly there is more to the story than Trump & Co. let on, but Trump lying is not a surprise to anyone, even his supporters. I'm not getting my hopes up until I know the content of these overtures to the Russians. Seems like there is more than enough there to give Flynn a sweetheart deal. I'm sure we'll be seeing over the next few months. Mueller is not one to show cards he doesn't have to show according to people who have worked with or against him in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 This sucks. They have the votes for a bill that breaks every rule they set forth and that no one actually knows what's in it or the full impact of it or how it will be paid for. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 12 minutes ago, Mexal said: Nah. Trump can't pardon Flynn now. It's one count of lying to the FBI. Mueller still has all the Turkey shit over Flynn's head which I believe some of which falls under the jurisdiction of Eric Schneiderman. The other thing is I'm not sure Trump can pardon Flynn to prevent Flynn from rolling on him. That would add to obstruction of justice case that Mueller is building. 6 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Also, if Trump pardoned Flynn, what would he pardon him for? There are many things Flynn can still be charged with. If he gives him some kind of blanket pardon, widely written, Flynn can still be brought in as a witness, and as a person who has been pardoned he cannot take the 5th and is required to answer questions. Well, the idea would be that Trump pardons Flynn. If Flynn is called to testify, he'll lie and then Trump can pardon him again. The Schneiderman charges are still a problem for Flynn, which presumably is why he has defected from Team Trump. And I suppose if Trump were going to go all in on "pardon everyone, I'm above the law", it would have made a lot more sense to do it yesterday than to do it today after Flynn has already revealed so much. That's encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Mexal said: Seems like there is more than enough there to give Flynn a sweetheart deal. I'm sure we'll be seeing over the next few months. Asking out of ignorance here, not to be contrarian - do we know for sure that Mueller has other (bigger) things on Flynn? As far as I can tell he pled guilty to what he was charged with (lying to the FBI). Does that necessarily indicate a sweetheart deal? Could it simply be a run of the mill guilty plea in hopes for some leniency in sentencing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, S John said: Asking out of ignorance here, not to be contrarian - do we know for sure that Mueller has other (bigger) things on Flynn? As far as I can tell he pled guilty to what he was charged with (lying to the FBI). Does that necessarily indicate a sweetheart deal? Could it simply be a run of the mill guilty plea in hopes for some leniency in sentencing? We of course don't know for certain. But former prosecutors CNN is interviewing have no doubts at all that Flynn has more to tell. The question is who will be implicated next. Kushner? Pence? Trump jr? Trump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, S John said: Asking out of ignorance here, not to be contrarian - do we know for sure that Mueller has other (bigger) things on Flynn? As far as I can tell he pled guilty to what he was charged with (lying to the FBI). Does that necessarily indicate a sweetheart deal? Could it simply be a run of the mill guilty plea in hopes for some leniency in sentencing? I think he still has Flynn (and his idiot son) for (I can't believe I'm typing this about a three star general, former head of the DIA and National Security Advisor) taking part in a Turkish government plot to kidnap a legal resident of the United States. There were a number of other stories about people cooperating with Mueller that seemed like they had Flynn pretty solidly there. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/10/michael-flynn-trump-turkish-dissident-cleric-plot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Oh. And Sessions. Don't forget Sessions. Sessions making that joke at a speaking engagement about are there any Russians here, struck me as whistling in the graveyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, S John said: Asking out of ignorance here, not to be contrarian - do we know for sure that Mueller has other (bigger) things on Flynn? As far as I can tell he pled guilty to what he was charged with (lying to the FBI). Does that necessarily indicate a sweetheart deal? Could it simply be a run of the mill guilty plea in hopes for some leniency in sentencing? Yes. I think he does. 1. Flynn has released a statement saying he's cooperating with Mueller 2. Mueller has him cold on FARA acts (Turkey), the same things he charged Manafort/Gates on 3. Flynn lied on his SF-86 about money received from Russia, about his trip to Moscow, etc so plenty there 4. Mueller likely has him on conspiracy to kidnap given there were people in that conversation with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Also, McConnell has the votes with Flake saying he's voting yes. Tax cuts will pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Expect the WH to say Flynn is a known liar, he was fired for lying, nothing he says is true. Will be interesting if he says he was told to lie to Pence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivin Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 7 minutes ago, Mexal said: Also, McConnell has the votes with Flake saying he's voting yes. Tax cuts will pass. Yep. Welcome to the future, people. If you're rich as fuck, congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Tax Cuts are the Republican brand and failure is not an option. There is still the Conference with the House that will need to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 16 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Expect the WH to say Flynn is a known liar, he was fired for lying, nothing he says is true. Will be interesting if he says he was told to lie to Pence... Maybe, but that would be a monumentally dumb move. One thing that has me worried is that it’s being reported that people close to Trump are saying that he feels emboldened and above the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 In a way this could be good news for Congressional Republicans. This will definitely overshadow something as "boring" as a tax bill, Republicans can pass it while everyone is paying attention to the Russia scandal, and Trump can sign it into law before this gets anywhere near him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Maybe, but that would be a monumentally dumb move. One thing that has me worried is that it’s being reported that people close to Trump are saying that he feels emboldened and above the law. I remember some murmuring a while back that there were plenty of R's in congress ready to join a rebellion against Trump but they wanted to get tax cuts done first. Interesting that the Flynn news and the tax cut bill look to be coming down on the same day. I think rumors of the R's turning on Trump are unlikely wishful thinking, but now that they're probably getting their pet legislation through, perhaps the incentive to look the other way diminishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Maybe, but that would be a monumentally dumb move. One thing that has me worried is that it’s being reported that people close to Trump are saying that he feels emboldened and above the law. In general, or now particularly? Because Flynn cooperating is definitely a score for team Law and Order. It remains to be seen if there is anything that could possibly turn Republicans in Congress (or the voting booth) against Trump, but there's a good chance that Trump Jr and Kushner are next. Trump has only ever shown loyalty to his family, so he'll be loath to just throw them under the bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 46 minutes ago, S John said: "Flynn is prepared to testify President Trump directed him to make contact with Russians." OK, what does this even mean though. Trump directing Flynn to establish contact is not illegal in itself, no? In this case it absolutely is. Specifically, it is illegal to try and negotiate deals with foreign governments while you are not the POTUS, and that is precisely what Flynn did with Kislyak with respect to the sanction response that Putin gave in December. There was a lot of talk about how this would be illegal then; this is the specific proof of that. Not that I think it's a particularly impeachable offense even under bipartisan circumstances, but that's what it's talking about and why it's bad. 46 minutes ago, S John said: Clearly there is more to the story than Trump & Co. let on, but Trump lying is not a surprise to anyone, even his supporters. I'm not getting my hopes up until I know the content of these overtures to the Russians. Note that this does not establish collusion or conspiracy during the election; it instead shows a specific instance of Trump et al doing things illegally, which then gives probable cause to firing Comey to obstruct this. Oddly it makes it less likely that Mueller is going after any kind of coordination during the campaign, but it makes it more likely for charges to actually stick, as firing Yates and Comey who both had information on Flynn is not a good look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mance Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, S John said: I think rumors of the R's turning on Trump are unlikely wishful thinking, but now that they're probably getting their pet legislation through, perhaps the incentive to look the other way diminishes. Any chance Trump tries to use signing the bill as some kind of leverage on the investigation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Totally off topic, but something that came up after Trump made his Pocahontas comment (when was that again? A month ago? ). Over and over I saw Republican talking heads talking about Elizabeth Warren lying so that she could claim the benefits of being a native person (a total lie, her oral family history claims native heritage, just like thousands if not millions of other Americans). The next time you hear someone say that, you could mention the Trumps claimed to be Swedish after WW2, so they would have no problems selling real estate to Jews in New York City. I don't know how long they continued the lie, but it is certainly far more egregious than having an oral family history of natives in the family tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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