Old Nissa Nissa theory with new evidence

[Alabastur]

https://thesuddenstorm.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/who-will-be-nissa-nissa/

[The North Forgot]

Not sure if I believe this, but if it's true, that could imply Stannis really is Azor Ahai. I have a feeling he will survive the battle at Winterfell and ride back to the Wall after he hears about the mutiny, and we all know death pays for (possibly Jon's?) life, and Shireen has King's blood...

[Curled Finger]

Sure, your ideas are plausible enough.   You back it up well.  However, following years of discussion I'm not sure what the story of Azor Ahai really is.   It's not likely to be literal unless a thing such as you describe played out in the past.   What about the folks who believe this story is the recipe for making Valyrian Steel?  Or that the stabbing of the wife pointing to kinslayer as the important part of this tale?  

I'm with you that Mel certainly fits some of the wording used in the story of Azor Ahai.  I've seen some of your evidence used to point to Melisandre being related to Sheira Seastar.  What is steaming black blood, anyway?   

[Alabastur]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Sure, your ideas are plausible enough.   You back it up well.  However, following years of discussion I'm not sure what the story of Azor Ahai really is.   It's not likely to be literal unless a thing such as you describe played out in the past.   What about the folks who believe this story is the recipe for making Valyrian Steel?  Or that the stabbing of the wife pointing to kinslayer as the important part of this tale?  

I'm with you that Mel certainly fits some of the wording used in the story of Azor Ahai.  I've seen some of your evidence used to point to Melisandre being related to Sheira Seastar.  What is steaming black blood, anyway?   

I actually replied to someone who raised your same concerns on Reddit, let me repost it:

It's visions that aren't to be taken literal. And prophecies are the finalized, spoken interpretations of said visions. Example with the Ghost of High Heart:

    I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye.

This is a vision -- obviously not to be taken literally. If she somehow interpreted it and said, "Renly will be slain by Stannis's shadow." That is prophecy. And the problem with prophecy is not people interpreting them literally, it's people misinterpreting them -- that is, mistaking something for something else, such as Melisandre mistaking Alys Karstark for Arya, or thinking the towers by the sea being enveloped are the Shadow Tower. Or the prophecy not occurring at all -- like Rhaego.

Even so, the forging of Lightbringer is not a prophecy or a vision -- it's a legend, a story. And the problem with legends are different than what plagues prophecies and visions. The problem with legends is they exaggerate truths that occurred. Stories and myths are built around unadorned, ugly truths and romanticized.

The legend is that Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer (how he did it are exaggerations, romanticizations). The prophecy part is the rebirth, the reoccurring again of said event and person.

So the problem with visions is their dreamlike, metaphorical forms.. The problem with prophecies is their interpreter mistaking something for another in a vision. The problem with legends is exaggerations of something that truthfully happened. The legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer is a separate thing from the prophecy of return.

 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Sure, your ideas are plausible enough.   You back it up well.  However, following years of discussion I'm not sure what the story of Azor Ahai really is.   It's not likely to be literal unless a thing such as you describe played out in the past.   What about the folks who believe this story is the recipe for making Valyrian Steel?  Or that the stabbing of the wife pointing to kinslayer as the important part of this tale?  

I'm with you that Mel certainly fits some of the wording used in the story of Azor Ahai.  I've seen some of your evidence used to point to Melisandre being related to Sheira Seastar.  What is steaming black blood, anyway?   

Actually you could combine theories.

Lets say AA was trying to forge a sword that can kill fire others. The water part was one method he used in forging the sword. The lion part could be related to a fire wight lion and he was trying to kill it, however he failed. The nissa nissa part was him finally being able to kill a fire wight/other and each time he kills a fire wight/other the sword catches fire. However, after a while the fire disperses so there isn t really a flaming sword that everybody is looking for... It is only written as a flaming sword in stories because at the time the fight was against fire others/wights and AA was constantly killing them, therefore his sword was on fire a lot of times.

ps don t Forget that melisandre is a shadowbringer (or something similar) so maybe in the past her kind was the villains (therefore AA got the name shadowchaser) and there were ice others helping men fight fire others...

 

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What is steaming black blood, anyway? 

That's a good question.  Beyond the literal, could smoking black blood translate into a shadow baby which in turn is used as a weapon or sword, figuratively speaking?  Melisandre thinks her powers are becoming so strong that she could create shadows such as the world has never seen.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Alabastur said:

Nissa Nissa is the key here – despite her . . . you know, her chest being used like a keyhole. Anyway, forget about all the laboring and the failures and the lion. For it’s the fire that literally burned inside her that was crucial, and nothing else. For she was not a mere mortal – she was more than human. She was an Other of Fire, and the sword that was plunged into her bare breast absorbed her elemental flame:

If i understand you correctly, your attributing Lightbringer and Nissa Nissa to the creation of the Others?

[AlaskanSandman]

I wouldn't ignore the first two attempts.

1. Water= Ice, Others

2. Tiger= Cat's Eyes, Children of the Forest. 

3. Nissa Nissa

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

"Ser Gallawho of What?" He snorted. "Never heard o' him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

 

 

 

I would argue that the above is true, and that the Others we're already created. Per the curse on Garth's Barrow, the First King. Activated by the Grey King who went to war with his brother for Nissa Nissa. 

 

He then sacrificed Nissa Nissa. Either to forge Lightbringer the literal sword, or Lightbringer, the figurative sword that is the dragons.

 

I believe dragons were created by skinchanging wyverns and firewyrms and getting them to mate.

So he either did it for the fiery sword, or simply to sacrifice her so there was nothing to fight over.

 

Light bringer is possibly Dawn, said to be forged from a falling star. Possibly the same falling star worshiped by the Bloodstone Emperor. Though the Last Hero's sword supposedly snapped, so the sword definitely didn't end the war. 

 

But, the sword did give him the courage to seek out the CotF it would seem. Upon meeting them, some pact or something happens, cause then the wall goes up. 

 

Though, dead Nissa Nissa seems to pop back up again, tempting the Night's King who may be the Last Hero-Azor Ahai. This time he doesn't seem to give her up. 

 

So there are a few things to consider when thinking about what was exactly happening in these moments. 

 

I do like your links though between some of those descriptions. Definitely some food for thought

 

[Ser Knute]

10 hours ago, Alabastur said:

I have posted this on Reddit, and no one has offered any counter-evidence . . . only personal protests that they don't want this person to be Nissa Nissa. Hopefully you guys can provide something.

 

Alright, you all know how the tale goes . . . Azor Ahai labors for many days and nights, tries to temper his sword, yet fails every time and ultimately must sacrifice Nissa Nissa for Lightbringer to come into being.

Nissa Nissa is the key here – despite her . . . you know, her chest being used like a keyhole. Anyway, forget about all the laboring and the failures and the lion. For it’s the fire that literally burned inside her that was crucial, and nothing else. For she was not a mere mortal – she was more than human. She was an Other of Fire, and the sword that was plunged into her bare breast absorbed her elemental flame:

 

So when Azor Ahai drew his sword from her breast, it was lit aflame, for a transfer had transpired.

But where am I getting the basis for this ridiculous presumption? Well, we actually already witnessed such an elemental transfer happen in the books – but of Ice.

After fleeing from the battle at the Fist of the First Men, Sam and his company are ambushed by an Other. Sam kills it, of course, stabbing his cold foe with a dragonglass dagger. After the Other shrinks and melts away, the dagger remains on the ground, “wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating.”

But then…

 

The dragonglass dagger absorbed the cold. It wasn’t like that when Sam pulled it out to fight – otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to wield it. He plunged the dagger into the Other of Ice and thus absorbed his elemental force. You could say an icy cold weapon was drawn from slaying the Other of Ice and now a fiery hot one will be drawn from slaying the Other of Fire (Nissa Nissa). I'm not saying the dragonglass dagger is special now and that it can freeze people or anything, I'm just comparing what happened when an Other of Ice was slain to when an Other of Fire (Nissa Nissa) was slain.

But let’s go back to how these two polar opposite Others suffered. Let us reexamine the words used to describe their death throes:

In the moment when Nissa Nissa was stabbed, this is what happened:

Now as the Other writhed in pain, this is what Sam witnessed and heard:

… A screech so shrill and sharp it could leave a crack across the face of the moon? Obviously both Others were in much pain. Their shrieks of suffering were inhumanly loud, for they were more than human. But in those particular screams of pain lie our hint to who our Other of Fire is.

Nissa Nissa the Red

One night, while peering through the flames for visions, Melisandre saw a man with a wooden face and a thousand eyes, and a boy with a wolf’s face – Bloodraven and Bran. They are not necessarily relevant, but what Melisandre felt inside and out after seeing them is of much importance:

 

Fire inside. Agony and ecstasy. A lover's touch. Now let’s look back at what the two primary feelings Nissa Nissa felt being stabbed by her lover:

 

Anguish and ecstasy; agony and ecstasy. I dare say this is not a coincidence, for Melisandre has felt these before, with Davos as witness as she birthed a shadow baby.

And this leads us to yet another conclusion. Whomever slays Melisandre the Nissa Nissa may also be described as the one who vanquished shadows. From the Maester Yandel in A World of Ice and Fire:

 

Conclusion

And there you have it. Melisandre is the Nissa Nissa for the fire that burns inside her, and whomever claims her life may also claim the name of Shadowchaser for he would have rid the world of her evil shadows, chasing them away. The fire that burns inside her will be absorbed by the sword and thus be lit aflame and be named Lightbringer. . . much as the dragonglass dagger that absorbed the Other’s icy coldness. Both these Others of Fire and Ice share the same inhuman shrieks of pain that sounded like terrible cracks . . . so terrible and loud it could be said they could have broken the moon.

All that is left is for Azor Ahai the Shadowchaser to fulfill his destiny…

EDIT: Someone made a comment on Reddit and got me thinking. So I went back into the books and found more evidence corroborating my theory, here is my reply:

When Drogon, fire made flesh, bled in the book, he bled black and smoking:

 

After Melisandre got the daylights scared out of her after seeing Bloodraven and Bran in the visions, she bled black and smoking as well:

 

Now, you might say, that just might mean she’s undead, like Coldhands. After all, he said after a man dies his blood turns black. But he also said the blood thickens and congeals. If Mel was such an undead her blood would not “trickle” because it is congealed. Yet it did.

---

This post on my blog

No one offered counter evidence?!  To the conclusion that Melissandre is Nissa Nissa?

It's possible sure... but your conclusion lacks macro reasoning.  

What I mean is, you tell me that Mel is the Yin to the Others' Yang, but how did it all come to pass?!  Like for example, how does it relate to the tales in the past with Eldric and Nissa Nissa, and is there a connection to the Great Empire of the Dawn?  How does the first God Emperor relate in all this?!  When there were two moons, one likely Fire apected and the remaining one likely cold aspected, what actually caused the long night?!  Was it a natural disaster or did it only appear as such?!  Did it have to do with Sorcery and Blood Magic?!  All of these things are important details to the story because history is repeating itself, so in my view it's not as important to know who the present incarnation of Nissa Nissa is, but what SHE believes or understands about her sacrifice, or not at all.  Was it all a usurpation or was it that and more?!  The Bloodstone Emperor is the prevailing candidate for part of the cause of the Long Night, by way of sorcery and treachery in usurping his sister's rule.  Was Nissa Nissa the BSE's sister, conveniently rephrased to sound as if she is actually a lover and not a relation?

All of these things should be considered in arriving at a conclusion.

It also depends on what you believe as well.  I don't believe that we're headed for a strict repeat of the Lightbringer story.  The seasons are out of balance, one COULD say they've been out of balance since the Blood Usurpation, magic is imbalanced.  The Song of Ice & Fire may refer to the harmony or rather disharmony that exists bewteen magjcs, or it may simply be that magic itself is the corruption and harmony will only be achieved by cancelling each other out.

 

Anyway, those are the kinds of things that should at least be considered.  Mel as Nissa Nissa without context doesn't actually provide much even if you're spot on, sure the similarities in physical wounds and such, but to what end, and whether or not she's actually right or is herself being led by the proverbial nose?

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I wouldn't ignore the first two attempts.

1. Water= Ice, Others

2. Tiger= Cat's Eyes, Children of the Forest. 

3. Nissa Nissa

I wouldn't ignore them either.  I don't think we are talking about one 'sword', but three.  

Spoiler

Euron is attempting a sorcery to make himself into AA.  In the Foresaken chapter, he is preparing to sacrifice a holy man/holy blood (Aeron) and his pregnant wife; to forge a sword in water.

Melisandre will likely attempt to forge Lightbringer using the fire element and she's convinced this is Stannis.  

It's unclear to me who represents the heart of a lion.  At this point, I'm inclined to think it's Jon. 

The other distinction is that AA is the one who forges the instrument; not the actual sword. 

The notion that the sword is 'shattered' suggests that the psyche is shattered and re-made.  Rebirth suggests death and resurrection.  I don't think this is playing out as one agent attempting to forge one sword with the other two as failures.  AA is a story that Melisandre is promoting from her own bias essentially saying the other two are 'forgeries' and the red lot produces the true 'forgery'.  

I'm also guessing that you can't 'engineer' prophecy and that it happens accidently or without seeming direction as is the case with Dany and the tent ritual or with Jon's assassination.  Dany is the one who wakes the dragon and then dragons from stone; although Melisandre believes she is the who can fulfill that part of the prophecy but doesn't do either.

Spoiler

Euron is following a prescription that seems to follow the events of the tent ritual; the sacrifice of an unborn son (royal blood) and then the sacrifice of holy blood (MMD) with water as the medium (Drogo submerged in a bath of water and blood). 

While I think that both Euron and Stannis will be transformed; the question is transformed into what?  And how does this play out between Dany (fire) and Jon (ice)?  Dany is the crone; the one who carries the lantern, the one who shows the way and I think Jon is the sword (of justice).  I'm just not sure that he is Melisandre's 'red sword'.

[Leo of House Cartel]

An interesting take on things @Alabastur, that section concerning Grenn and the transfer of energy certainly gave pause. The similarity between the dragonglass turning cold after stabbing the Other and Lightbringer absorbing Nissa Nissa's fire is rather striking, as are the "agony, anguish and cracking sound" comparisons between Mel, Nissa Nissa and the dying Other.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover‘s hand…

A very intense reaction to have right after seeing the Bloodraven-esque figure in the fires. What made the blood flow? How exactly did the agony and ecstacy transform Melisande? And how does all of this relate to the white wood and wolf boy imagery Mel glimpsed in her flames?

[Black Dragons]

I believe that Nissa Nissa is the Maid Warrior Brienne Jamie is going is stab her maybe out of Mercy (kill) when she turns into Wight. Because Jamie is Lightbringer..

[Alabastur]

So, another thing has corroborated my theory, but that is from the show (I just edited it out from this post).

 

[Alabastur]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If i understand you correctly, your attributing Lightbringer and Nissa Nissa to the creation of the Others?

No, just comparing Nissa Nissa's death to how an Other died. But what you say does have me thinking...

[The Commentator]

It depends on who Azor Ahai is.  I believe Daenerys is Azor Ahai and Drogo is the Nissa Nissa.  

The second most likely Azor Ahai is Jon Snow and in his case, his Nissa Nissa is Arya Stark.  The whole point of the AA/NN tale is the person sacrifices the love of their life and it is very obvious that Arya is the love of Jon's life.  He even betrayed his NW brothers and Westeros just to get her out of a bad marriage.  

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Alabastur said:

I actually replied to someone who raised your same concerns on Reddit, let me repost it:

It's visions that aren't to be taken literal. And prophecies are the finalized, spoken interpretations of said visions. Example with the Ghost of High Heart:

    I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye.

This is a vision -- obviously not to be taken literally. If she somehow interpreted it and said, "Renly will be slain by Stannis's shadow." That is prophecy. And the problem with prophecy is not people interpreting them literally, it's people misinterpreting them -- that is, mistaking something for something else, such as Melisandre mistaking Alys Karstark for Arya, or thinking the towers by the sea being enveloped are the Shadow Tower. Or the prophecy not occurring at all -- like Rhaego.

Even so, the forging of Lightbringer is not a prophecy or a vision -- it's a legend, a story. And the problem with legends are different than what plagues prophecies and visions. The problem with legends is they exaggerate truths that occurred. Stories and myths are built around unadorned, ugly truths and romanticized.

The legend is that Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer (how he did it are exaggerations, romanticizations). The prophecy part is the rebirth, the reoccurring again of said event and person.

So the problem with visions is their dreamlike, metaphorical forms.. The problem with prophecies is their interpreter mistaking something for another in a vision. The problem with legends is exaggerations of something that truthfully happened. The legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer is a separate thing from the prophecy of return.

 

Thanks Alabastur, but I don't know that we ever thought the tale of AA was a vision.   Maybe a prophecy, but from my experience most of us think this is in fact a legend.   A truth told and lost in retelling becoming a folk tale.   The 1st real life folk tale that comes to mind is that of Johnny Appleseed.  Surely there was a person or group of people who went around planting apple trees hundreds of years ago.   At the very least someone wanted someone to plant apple trees all over the place.   That's where I have to hang my hat.  There are apple trees everywhere; that's a fact.  This fruit has brought the nutrients exclusive to this fruit to everyone in the USA that might otherwise not have access.   If Johnny was the guy who brought the seeds, sure he can be credited with establishing the trees.   In reality it is nearly 3000 miles from New York to California not to mention another 1200 miles from Michigan to Florida.   There are apple trees in every state, but it's unlikely that 1 man walked all that distance to plant seeds.   Most probably seeds were scattered by winds and birds.   Establishing apple trees is not the same as planting every seed.

We are far from understanding the truth in the tale of Azor Ahai.   As silly and unlikely as I think it is that the legend is the recipe for VS, I still don't know that it isn't.    As silly an unlikely that I think anyone attempted to temper a sword by stabbing his wife in the heart, I still don't know that it isn't.  Maybe it is all this metaphor that your basic reader doesn't get.  The only thing I get out of this story is a hero made by kinslaying.   There may be a Lannister death involved in this, but I can't put it together.   However, this story is told twice in ASOIAF, so it can't be ignored.  

Alabastur, I'm not just being argumentative.   If there will be a real Nissa Nissa in ASOIAF, Mel is as good a candidate as any other character.   We just don't have anything that says the 1st Long Night was brought on by anything other than the Others--ice creatures.    The Others are not wights.  We have no evidence or even whisper of fire creatures on par with our Others.   I'm taking the 1st Long Night as it is told; the result of the Others in the Land of Always Winter.   If we have to look for kin slaying and blood sacrifice this story could be a precursor to the Long Night tale.  

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's a good question.  Beyond the literal, could smoking black blood translate into a shadow baby which in turn is used as a weapon or sword, figuratively speaking?  Melisandre thinks her powers are becoming so strong that she could create shadows such as the world has never seen.

 

LynnS, you always do a nice job explaining metaphors (possibility) and I thank you for answering my question.   

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, divica said:

Actually you could combine theories.

Lets say AA was trying to forge a sword that can kill fire others. The water part was one method he used in forging the sword. The lion part could be related to a fire wight lion and he was trying to kill it, however he failed. The nissa nissa part was him finally being able to kill a fire wight/other and each time he kills a fire wight/other the sword catches fire. However, after a while the fire disperses so there isn t really a flaming sword that everybody is looking for... It is only written as a flaming sword in stories because at the time the fight was against fire others/wights and AA was constantly killing them, therefore his sword was on fire a lot of times.

ps don t Forget that melisandre is a shadowbringer (or something similar) so maybe in the past her kind was the villains (therefore AA got the name shadowchaser) and there were ice others helping men fight fire others...

 

 

Thanks divica--I think my biggest problem with this idea is the fire wights.  We have no inkling that there ever were fire wights.   I tried to visualize this and came up with a Long Day scenario.   For the record, Mel is a shadow binder from Asshai, indicating that this is just a magic learned in a place.   Of course, Asshai by the Shadow is a mess.   A look at the maps of Essos reveals some real devastation--looks like a nuke went off to me.   This is where the shadows are.   Our buddy Eldric may have just chased them all there and this binding magic is just that--a way to command the shadows already there.  It's not an ability exclusive to R'hllor, it's exclusive to the magicians who study in Asshai.   For all that's worth any way.  

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

LynnS, you always do a nice job explaining metaphors (possibility) and I thank you for answering my question.   

Oh, cheers!  

[btfu806]

Your theory is a good one and I would say believable but Nissa Nissa kinda depends a lot on who AA is, right? So if Mel is Nissa Nissa, does that make Stanis or Jon, AA? I know a lot of people believe Jon to be AA so I guess it could make sense (depends on how they resurrect him I guess). Because there isn't a TON of evidence for who AA is yet (but it's hinted at Jon or Dany), it's hard to argue who Nissa Nissa might be.

IMO AA is Rhaegar and Nissa Nissa is Lyanna. Lightbringer is Jon. To me the story of lightbringer being forged is pretty closely tied to the life of Rhaegar and in the end his "sword" penetrates Lyanna to make Jon who we know from his vows is, "The sword in the darkness."

It's a little more out there theory, but I like it.