Jump to content

Old Nissa Nissa theory with new evidence


Alabastur

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks Alabastur, but I don't know that we ever thought the tale of AA was a vision.   Maybe a prophecy, but from my experience most of us think this is in fact a legend.   A truth told and lost in retelling becoming a folk tale.   The 1st real life folk tale that comes to mind is that of Johnny Appleseed.  Surely there was a person or group of people who went around planting apple trees hundreds of years ago.   At the very least someone wanted someone to plant apple trees all over the place.   That's where I have to hang my hat.  There are apple trees everywhere; that's a fact.  This fruit has brought the nutrients exclusive to this fruit to everyone in the USA that might otherwise not have access.   If Johnny was the guy who brought the seeds, sure he can be credited with establishing the trees.   In reality it is nearly 3000 miles from New York to California not to mention another 1200 miles from Michigan to Florida.   There are apple trees in every state, but it's unlikely that 1 man walked all that distance to plant seeds.   Most probably seeds were scattered by winds and birds.   Establishing apple trees is not the same as planting every seed.

We are far from understanding the truth in the tale of Azor Ahai.   As silly and unlikely as I think it is that the legend is the recipe for VS, I still don't know that it isn't.    As silly an unlikely that I think anyone attempted to temper a sword by stabbing his wife in the heart, I still don't know that it isn't.  Maybe it is all this metaphor that your basic reader doesn't get.  The only thing I get out of this story is a hero made by kinslaying.   There may be a Lannister death involved in this, but I can't put it together.   However, this story is told twice in ASOIAF, so it can't be ignored.  

Alabastur, I'm not just being argumentative.   If there will be a real Nissa Nissa in ASOIAF, Mel is as good a candidate as any other character.   We just don't have anything that says the 1st Long Night was brought on by anything other than the Others--ice creatures.    The Others are not wights.  We have no evidence or even whisper of fire creatures on par with our Others.   I'm taking the 1st Long Night as it is told; the result of the Others in the Land of Always Winter.   If we have to look for kin slaying and blood sacrifice this story could be a precursor to the Long Night tale.  

Yes, I know you don’t think the tale of AA was a vision –  what I am saying is you are examining it like one. You are looking at the legend using the same lens you use for visions, assuming there are metaphors.

Take the romanticized legend of Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart:

“    ... and there's this other band, led by Lady Stoneheart... Lord Beric's lover, according to one tale….Supposedly she was hanged by the Freys, but Dondarrion kissed her and brought her back to life...”

In such a legend, you wouldn’t look for metaphors, would you? It’s a legend, like the forging of Lightbringer. Some things are true some things are not – that is its problem I am acknowledging. So I am not saying to forgo scrutiny of legends. I am saying to scrutinize them in a different manner from visions.

And that brings me to another misunderstanding… I am not taking legend of Azor Ahai at face-value in my theory. I do not believe it as it is.

Your initial comment was that you thought it wasn’t wise to take the legend of Azor Ahai literally – by which I assume you meant that there are metaphors, or were implying that I believe every detail of the legend of Azor Ahai – which I do not. But as I am saying, legends are different. I am not saying they are every ounce true. I am not believing them as they are. I am not saying exact things happened as it is said.

Let’s take the legend of Beric and Lady Stoneheart again. Is it all true? Of course not. They never even met, how can they be in love?

But is there some kernels of truth? Yes – we know that for sure. And that is why I say there are kernels of truth in legends, like the legend of the forging of Lightbringer. A different critical thinking is needed for this, to sift through the romanticized story and deduce what is likely true among all the embellishments and exaggerations.

Lady Stoneheart and Beric weren’t in love. But he did resurrect her. This legend, like all others, does not need metaphorical interpretation – it needs a sifting through.

And that’s exactly what I did with my theory. So I don’t know why you need to explain Johnny Appleseed. If I took everything of the legend of Azor Ahai to be true, why didn’t I include the lion or love between Nissa Nissa and him?

Because I deduced that those parts were embellishments. Just like Beric and Lady Stoneheart weren’t lovers, Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa probably weren’t. I sifted through the legend and deduced likely embellishments and discarding them. I can layout my reasoning for coming to that conclusion, but this post is long enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Alabastur said:

Yes, I know you don’t think the tale of AA was a vision –  what I am saying is you are examining it like one. You are looking at the legend using the same lens you use for visions, assuming there are metaphors.

Take the romanticized legend of Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart:

“    ... and there's this other band, led by Lady Stoneheart... Lord Beric's lover, according to one tale….Supposedly she was hanged by the Freys, but Dondarrion kissed her and brought her back to life...”

In such a legend, you wouldn’t look for metaphors, would you? It’s a legend, like the forging of Lightbringer. Some things are true some things are not – that is its problem I am acknowledging. So I am not saying to forgo scrutiny of legends. I am saying to scrutinize them in a different manner from visions.

And that brings me to another misunderstanding… I am not taking legend of Azor Ahai at face-value in my theory. I do not believe it as it is.

Your initial comment was that you thought it wasn’t wise to take the legend of Azor Ahai literally – by which I assume you meant that there are metaphors, or were implying that I believe every detail of the legend of Azor Ahai – which I do not. But as I am saying, legends are different. I am not saying they are every ounce true. I am not believing them as they are. I am not saying exact things happened as it is said.

Let’s take the legend of Beric and Lady Stoneheart again. Is it all true? Of course not. They never even met, how can they be in love?

But is there some kernels of truth? Yes – we know that for sure. And that is why I say there are kernels of truth in legends, like the legend of the forging of Lightbringer. A different critical thinking is needed for this, to sift through the romanticized story and deduce what is likely true among all the embellishments and exaggerations.

Lady Stoneheart and Beric weren’t in love. But he did resurrect her. This legend, like all others, does not need metaphorical interpretation – it needs a sifting through.

And that’s exactly what I did with my theory. So I don’t know why you need to explain Johnny Appleseed. If I took everything of the legend of Azor Ahai to be true, why didn’t I include the lion or love between Nissa Nissa and him?

Because I deduced that those parts were embellishments. Just like Beric and Lady Stoneheart weren’t lovers, Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa probably weren’t. I sifted through the legend and deduced likely embellishments and discarding them. I can layout my reasoning for coming to that conclusion, but this post is long enough.

Ok Alabastur, I appreciate your time and effort here, but I think we are on hopelessly different wavelengths and understanding here.   Good luck with your topic.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ok Alabastur, I appreciate your time and effort here, but I think we are on hopelessly different wavelengths and understanding here.   Good luck with your topic.   

Also, comparing a legend in our world to a legend in AWoIaF is like comparing our obsidian to the obsidian in AWoIaf. The world of Ice and Fire has fantastic and magical elements that ours do not, elements that permeate legends and the things like obsidian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Alabastur said:

Anguish and ecstasy; agony and ecstasy. I dare say this is not a coincidence, for Melisandre has felt these before, with Davos as witness as she birthed a shadow baby.

Yes, I think this is a good point that ties Melisandre to the legend.  It tells us something about the Red Lot's involvement using shadowbinding and what is actually meant by drawing a fiery sword from Nissa Nissa's body.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

 

The brightest flame sounds suspiciously like child sacrifice.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone. 

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Alabastur said:

No, just comparing Nissa Nissa's death to how an Other died. But what you say does have me thinking...

Oh ok :) Just wanted to clarify. I can definitely see it.

I think of Nissa Nissa as the blue eyed bride provided to Hugor of the Hill, Azor Ahai, etc. Does that mean she was already an Other? Some interesting visuals. Maybe the Grey King had already turned her? I definitely see what your pointing to

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Alabastur

Since you're looking for counterarguments:

Regarding to your reasoning on how Melisandre felt and cried while giving birth to shadows and spying Bloodraven through the flames, correct me if I'm wrong but i guess it's safe to imagine that those magic powers are not exclusive of her. Other shadowbinders, sorcerers and/or R'hllor's priests should know them aswell.

In this case, I wonder how can we be sure that those "spellcasters" wouldn't feel and cry exactly how Melisandre did if they performed those "spells" under the same circunstances (you know, opposing Bloodraven's powers, using King's seed)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/30/2017 at 4:02 PM, Alabastur said:

snip

There is no Nissa Nissa. the AA story is just a myth, a bastardized tale of the coming of the others that was slowly changed over thousands of years and thousands of leagues over countless languages and retellings. For Nissa Nissa to be a thing, we need someone who knows how to forge, and so far, there are no major characters that know how to forge. One is in KL and the other is at an inn in the riverlands. Neither are POV characters. 
Now, in terms of the nissa nissa archetype, that is Drogo, whom dany killed to hatch (forge) her flaming weapons (dragons)  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...