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Dark: Netflix's Time-Bending German Mystery Series {Spoilers from page 5}


AncalagonTheBlack

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@DaveSummI'm not sure its actually what they ended up going with, but the way I thought it could work was

Spoiler

Picture the 3 pronged looping figure thing they use for iconography in the show - that's the tunnel inside the wormhole. You're crawling down from the present and are presented with a forking path. If you go left you go back 33 years, if you go right you go forwards 33 years. This is how I was picturing it when I thought each "now" could go in either direction, but it still works if the 3 spokes are hard coded as '53,'86 and '19 - the 3 time periods merge in a 3 way corner and each tunnel is in 1 year.

I really don't have speculation on what has gone on with Claudia, I don't think they gave us enough to speculate on other than she's lived through 66 years since it started happening in 53.

 

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20 hours ago, karaddin said:

@DaveSummI'm not sure its actually what they ended up going with, but the way I thought it could work was

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Picture the 3 pronged looping figure thing they use for iconography in the show - that's the tunnel inside the wormhole. You're crawling down from the present and are presented with a forking path. If you go left you go back 33 years, if you go right you go forwards 33 years. This is how I was picturing it when I thought each "now" could go in either direction, but it still works if the 3 spokes are hard coded as '53,'86 and '19 - the 3 time periods merge in a 3 way corner and each tunnel is in 1 year.

I really don't have speculation on what has gone on with Claudia, I don't think they gave us enough to speculate on other than she's lived through 66 years since it started happening in 53.

 

I tend to agree that that's how I saw the forks in the tunnel too.

although it's convenient they found the right ones when going back (although I guess you'd make a mental note of which one you took for going back irrespective of whether it was a time tunnel or regular cave)

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21 hours ago, karaddin said:

@DaveSummI'm not sure its actually what they ended up going with, but the way I thought it could work was

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Picture the 3 pronged looping figure thing they use for iconography in the show - that's the tunnel inside the wormhole. You're crawling down from the present and are presented with a forking path. If you go left you go back 33 years, if you go right you go forwards 33 years. This is how I was picturing it when I thought each "now" could go in either direction, but it still works if the 3 spokes are hard coded as '53,'86 and '19 - the 3 time periods merge in a 3 way corner and each tunnel is in 1 year.

I really don't have speculation on what has gone on with Claudia, I don't think they gave us enough to speculate on other than she's lived through 66 years since it started happening in 53.

 

I agree

Spoiler

We even see Jonas take the right when he first goes into the tunnel, while Ulrich goes left.

But the question is, who built the tunnels and put the doors there?

 

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25 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I agree

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We even see Jonas take the right when he first goes into the tunnel, while Ulrich goes left.

But the question is, who built the tunnels and put the doors there?

 

time travelling mole?

I got the impression when Jonas went through he met two forks in the tunnel? I'm still curious as to whether people can travel further than +/- 33 years from the point closest to their birth in the cycles. eg Jonas can travel from 1986-2052, while Ulrich can travel from 1953-2019 while Helge can maybe only travel from 1920-1986 - which might explain why we haven't seen his 2019 self travel? Although I think Claudia and 2052 Jonas might blow that theory as her 2019 self can travel around still and older Jonas was at least as far back as 1986. I sort of feel there needs to be some limits on the time-travel otherwise it'll degenerate into a mess. Having characters tied to a +/- 33 year rule would help. It probably also needs a window of time in which the caves function although this has been implied in the sense that nothing happened between the disappearance of Ulrich's brother and 2019 and why Mikkel never went back to 2019 (he simply missed his opening back in 1986). If the tunnel was always functioning, people could go back and forward whenever they want which would again make things messy.

I really hope we get season 2 this year. It's probably going to be tight though with the renewal announcement only having occurred recently. I'm willing to wait if the showrunners need time to plan season 2 out. This isn't a show that will benefit from being rushed.

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9 hours ago, red snow said:

 

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I got the impression when Jonas went through he met two forks in the tunnel? I'm still curious as to whether people can travel further than +/- 33 years from the point closest to their birth in the cycles. eg Jonas can travel from 1986-2052, while Ulrich can travel from 1953-2019 while Helge can maybe only travel from 1920-1986 - which might explain why we haven't seen his 2019 self travel? Although I think Claudia and 2052 Jonas might blow that theory as her 2019 self can travel around still and older Jonas was at least as far back as 1986. I sort of feel there needs to be some limits on the time-travel otherwise it'll degenerate into a mess. Having characters tied to a +/- 33 year rule would help. It probably also needs a window of time in which the caves function although this has been implied in the sense that nothing happened between the disappearance of Ulrich's brother and 2019 and why Mikkel never went back to 2019 (he simply missed his opening back in 1986). If the tunnel was always functioning, people could go back and forward whenever they want which would again make things messy.

 

Spoiler

I guess it could be possible that your birth year factors in, but it seems easier to just say the wormhole goes to three times; 53, 86, 19. Jonas went in at 19, turned right, went to 86. Ulrich went in at 19, turned left, went to 53. I guess that's why @karaddin they didn't go with the shape you talked about, it'd be harder to demonstrate that 'fork'.

I'd actually be entirely happy with them never explaining the doors and the tunnels, it seems like the kind of thing that could only be disappointing. Kinda like Lost when they tried to portray ancient Latin speakers and just couldn't pull it off. The only time Dark nearly disappointed me was around episode 8-9 when Tannhauser seemed to explain pretty much everything, as at the time it looked like the entire scientific community was stumped by time travel except this one watchmaker dude. But then they pulled it back as it's possible he didn't write the book (he just copied a future copy, so it's either a Jonny B Good paradox, someone else wrote it, or maybe he did write it on the first loop) and he didn't actually invent the device, Claudia showed him the blueprint. I just think our imaginations are always going to do a better job of picturing the who, how, and when of building the tunnels than they could ever depict. If it was just some guy or some bunch of guys, it cheapens it (again with the Lost comparison, remember when it turned out the MiB made the ship wheel doohickey?).

I can't find it now but have you all seen the Season 2 announcement video? I think it was on the Netflix DE twitter account. It just shows the caves with the text '1953' changing to 54, 86 changing to 87, 19 changing to 20 and 2052 changing to 2053.......

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I finally watched it this week. It was great, I loved it!  I do have some problems/questions, if anyone has any hindsight on them

Spoiler

How did Mikkel go back to 1986 in the first place ? As far as I remember, we don't see anyone going back in time without entering the cave(or being strapped to that chair), which he clearly did not do, in fact they were running away from it.  I guess it's possible 86 Helge was there waiting for him, drugged him and brought him back, but there is no indication it happened... Is it possible Future Jonas is responsible for sending Mikkel back in time ? Wouldn't that be f*cked up ?! Or maybe even Claudia ?

In episode 5, when future Jonas tells Jonas that his father once saved his life, I wonder if he meant it like ''he saved my life by creating me'' or if there is something else to it ?

Is the blue wallpapered room the bunker from 1986 ? I was a bit confused by it. Should we assume it's always in 1986 when they are in that room ? Because I don't know how he can easily bring the body of a teenager with him (Erik) through those tiny tunnels in the cave. I'm having a problem imagining Helge carrying a body over miles to a cabin (don't remember if the cabin is close to the cave). Of course he could always leave his car not so far off, but still.

About Noah... in episode 8 or 9, Agnes Nielson tells Egon's wife that her husband is dead, he was a pastor but had little faith and was not a good man. I'm wondering if there is any connection there or simply a red herring ? Wouldn't it be fitting if Noah, Ulrich, Mikkel and Jonas all came from the same familly ? Also wondering how he got that watch ''For Charlotte''.

When Ulrich tells Egon in 1953 ''did you already started drinking or are you only gonna start once your wife leaves you? Egon seemed shook by that... Anybody get the feeling Egon wife's is gonna leave him BECAUSE Ulrich told him she would ? Like his behavior will change with her or something?

Who his Peter's mom (or Helge's wife/lover) ? Funny there is no mention of her at all when everybody seems pretty important.

 

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Going to number your questions for ease of replying

6 hours ago, The Unborn said:

I finally watched it this week. It was great, I loved it!  I do have some problems/questions, if anyone has any hindsight on them

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1) How did Mikkel go back to 1986 in the first place ? As far as I remember, we don't see anyone going back in time without entering the cave(or being strapped to that chair), which he clearly did not do, in fact they were running away from it.  I guess it's possible 86 Helge was there waiting for him, drugged him and brought him back, but there is no indication it happened... Is it possible Future Jonas is responsible for sending Mikkel back in time ? Wouldn't that be f*cked up ?! Or maybe even Claudia ?

2) In episode 5, when future Jonas tells Jonas that his father once saved his life, I wonder if he meant it like ''he saved my life by creating me'' or if there is something else to it ?

3) Is the blue wallpapered room the bunker from 1986 ? I was a bit confused by it. Should we assume it's always in 1986 when they are in that room ? Because I don't know how he can easily bring the body of a teenager with him (Erik) through those tiny tunnels in the cave. I'm having a problem imagining Helge carrying a body over miles to a cabin (don't remember if the cabin is close to the cave). Of course he could always leave his car not so far off, but still.

4) About Noah... in episode 8 or 9, Agnes Nielson tells Egon's wife that her husband is dead, he was a pastor but had little faith and was not a good man. I'm wondering if there is any connection there or simply a red herring ? Wouldn't it be fitting if Noah, Ulrich, Mikkel and Jonas all came from the same familly ? Also wondering how he got that watch ''For Charlotte''.

5) When Ulrich tells Egon in 1953 ''did you already started drinking or are you only gonna start once your wife leaves you? Egon seemed shook by that... Anybody get the feeling Egon wife's is gonna leave him BECAUSE Ulrich told him she would ? Like his behavior will change with her or something?

6) Who his Peter's mom (or Helge's wife/lover) ? Funny there is no mention of her at all when everybody seems pretty important.

 

Spoiler

1) I thought we see that he did go through the cave but we have no idea how he got in there? My memory is already fading but I think I had assumed he was drugged and dragged into it and found his way from there, possibly already through the time travel. He knew to go back to the cave but not where to go once in there.

2) I had assumed it just meant the way you said, but there could definitely be more.

3) Yeah, that room is the bunker. They set it up for keeping children in it. I don't think the bodies were dragged through the caves - the electrocution machine thing did work at sending them through time and then someone was waiting in the destination time period (which they had figured out from prior "loops" etc) to dispose of the body once it appeared.

4) I caught that as well and was wondering the same thing. I guess it comes down to whether Noah is from the future (ie Bartosz) or the past.

5) I thought there was some very nice hinting that Egon's wife leaves him for Agnes. The actresses had amazing chemistry and there was more than one scene with contact that seemed very intimate - particularly when Agnes was helping Doris get her clothes straight to go see the Dopplers. It may be spurred on by a behaviour change like you suggested but I don't think that will be the primary motivation.

6) I hadn't even noticed this hole. The web of characters is so complex it lets them sneak something through like this. Does seem likely to become relevant.

 

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12 hours ago, karaddin said:

Going to number your questions for ease of replying

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3) Yeah, that room is the bunker. They set it up for keeping children in it. I don't think the bodies were dragged through the caves - the electrocution machine thing did work at sending them through time and then someone was waiting in the destination time period (which they had figured out from prior "loops" etc) to dispose of the body once it appeared.

 

Spoiler

3. Yeah but my point is, Erik and Yasin were abducted in 2019. We then see Erik in the room strapped to the chair, so he was dragged in 1986. When he died, his body was then sent to 1953. But I doubt he willingly went in 1986 with Helge to end up in the room. So he did have to drag him through the cave.

 

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40 minutes ago, The Unborn said:
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3. Yeah but my point is, Erik and Yasin were abducted in 2019. We then see Erik in the room strapped to the chair, so he was dragged in 1986. When he died, his body was then sent to 1953. But I doubt he willingly went in 1986 with Helge to end up in the room. So he did have to drag him through the cave.

 

Spoiler

This is how I think they did it: (In one episode we see a body, I think Yasin's, just dropping from a hole in thin air, in the room). So besides the tunnels, there is also the hole that opens up the in the room. This is also how young Jonas and young Helge see each other in the last episode.

So Helge could have drugged Erik and Yasin, and dragged them to the room in 2019, then the hole opens up, and Helge or Noah grab the kid and take him to 1986 in the room. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Corvinus said:
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This is how I think they did it: (In one episode we see a body, I think Yasin's, just dropping from a hole in thin air, in the room). So besides the tunnels, there is also the hole that opens up the in the room. This is also how young Jonas and young Helge see each other in the last episode.

So Helge could have drugged Erik and Yasin, and dragged them to the room in 2019, then the hole opens up, and Helge or Noah grab the kid and take him to 1986 in the room. 

 

Spoiler

Wasn't that what Noah was trying to achieve, the new rend in space/time from the bunker room? I thought that was he point of the experiment with some of the missing kids.

 

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3 hours ago, Corvinus said:
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This is how I think they did it: (In one episode we see a body, I think Yasin's, just dropping from a hole in thin air, in the room). So besides the tunnels, there is also the hole that opens up the in the room. This is also how young Jonas and young Helge see each other in the last episode.

So Helge could have drugged Erik and Yasin, and dragged them to the room in 2019, then the hole opens up, and Helge or Noah grab the kid and take him to 1986 in the room. 

 

Spoiler

Nope, the body we see dropped from the hole is Mads, in front of Peter. Unless it happens two times and I forgot about it.

 

Are spoiler tags still necessary at this point ? 

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5 minutes ago, The Unborn said:
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Nope, the body we see dropped from the hole is Mads, in front of Peter. Unless it happens two times and I forgot about it.

 

Are spoiler tags still necessary at this point ? 

OK, I didn't remember that detail. It's already been a month since I watched it, and with so many German characters, I'm starting to forget. :P But do you agree with the rest?

And I would think spoilers may still be necessary, given that this isn't necessarily a popular show, relatively speaking, so maybe there are people still watching.

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55 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

OK, I didn't remember that detail. It's already been a month since I watched it, and with so many German characters, I'm starting to forget. :P But do you agree with the rest?

And I would think spoilers may still be necessary, given that this isn't necessarily a popular show, relatively speaking, so maybe there are people still watching.

Spoiler

Well so far the only time we know that the chair worked a dead body is the only thing that went through. But when young Helge and Jonas saw and touched each other, i don't know exactly what caused it. I mean we know futur Jonas probably caused the hole by trying to close it, but why does it work in that bunker ? No clue...

 

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9 hours ago, The Unborn said:
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3. Yeah but my point is, Erik and Yasin were abducted in 2019. We then see Erik in the room strapped to the chair, so he was dragged in 1986. When he died, his body was then sent to 1953. But I doubt he willingly went in 1986 with Helge to end up in the room. So he did have to drag him through the cave.

 

Spoiler

Ok yeah I see what you mean. I don't think Erik can have gotten to the chair through that hole, my impression was the only thing the machine does is transport the person sitting in it (and unfortunately kills them in the process), so I agree Helge has to drag him through the tunnel to 86. The time we see the chair actually open a window is after Old!Jonas has activated his machine which...creates a black hole/worm hole or something.

On your more recent post I believe the bunker is directly above the tunnel in the caves where the wormhole is. I see it as being not super close to the cave entrance, but thats due to needing to go around hills/the power plant etc, the distance underground is relatively close.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally got round to watching it, found it a tad slow at the start but after episode 4 it really hit it's stride and kept me hooked - I liked the somewhat slow nature of reveals, very few 'dun dun dun' moments just a build up and passive acknowledgement with quite often it being things that the audience are expected to already have worked out/know but is new information to the characters which I always liked.

I guessed Mikkel was going to be Jonas' dad by the second episode but that's mostly because the moment time travel enters a story my mind goes into overtime to figure out how someone is going to end up banging a relative.

 

One thing did bother me all the way though - did we ever find out why Mikkel/Michael killed himself? When talking about it a friend and I thought of the idea that maybe  there was no reason and that it was a horrible side effect of the time loop/self fulfilling prophecy in that Mikkel hanged himself because he knows Michael hangs himself but we both thought that seemed far too miserable and hoped there was some nugget of information that we missed.

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5 hours ago, Talleyrand said:

One thing did bother me all the way though - did we ever find out why Mikkel/Michael killed himself? When talking about it a friend and I thought of the idea that maybe  there was no reason and that it was a horrible side effect of the time loop/self fulfilling prophecy in that Mikkel hanged himself because he knows Michael hangs himself but we both thought that seemed far too miserable and hoped there was some nugget of information that we missed.

I'm pretty sure its this. Mikkel hangs himself because he remembers from his childhood that Michael had hung himself at that exact time.

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9 hours ago, Talleyrand said:

Finally got round to watching it, found it a tad slow at the start but after episode 4 it really hit it's stride and kept me hooked - I liked the somewhat slow nature of reveals, very few 'dun dun dun' moments just a build up and passive acknowledgement with quite often it being things that the audience are expected to already have worked out/know but is new information to the characters which I always liked.

I guessed Mikkel was going to be Jonas' dad by the second episode but that's mostly because the moment time travel enters a story my mind goes into overtime to figure out how someone is going to end up banging a relative.

 

One thing did bother me all the way though - did we ever find out why Mikkel/Michael killed himself? When talking about it a friend and I thought of the idea that maybe  there was no reason and that it was a horrible side effect of the time loop/self fulfilling prophecy in that Mikkel hanged himself because he knows Michael hangs himself but we both thought that seemed far too miserable and hoped there was some nugget of information that we missed.

It’s very possible that if he hadn’t killed himself, Jonas wouldn’t have found himself in the woods with Mikkel and he never would’ve been sent back to 1986. So I think he was ensuring Jonas existed. Old Jonas says something along the lines of ‘he saved my life many years ago, though I didn’t understand that at the time’ when he’s talking with Young Jonas at the church.

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  • 4 months later...

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