Why I believe Dany is the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar

[kissdbyfire]

54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think this is really an issue.  What does 'of an age' really mean when comparing Jon and Rob when we meet them? That they are close enough in their development to make a difference between them moot.  The notion that Catelyn wouldn't be fooled by the differences between infants when she first sees Jon also seems a bit of a red herring to me.  Of course she sees the difference while everyone colludes with the fiction for Ned's sake.   At least, it's something they are never allowed to talk about after Ned's gag order.  The differences become less distinct the older Jon and Rob become.   If I saw and fourteen year old and a fifteen year standing beside each other; I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in their ages.

If Jon was really the younger of the two, I doubt Catelyn would be so hateful or threatened by Jon. 

I agree that telling a 14-yr-old from a 15-yr-old can be very tricky. But my issue is with their ages, or to put it better their difference in age, when Cat first arrives in Winterfell w/ baby Robb and finds Jon there. And while I think Jon can be either younger or older than Robb, their ages have to be close enough. I'm no expert but I think it would be very difficult to make people believe a baby is months younger than he actually is. 

[LynnS]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that telling a 14-yr-old from a 15-yr-old can be very tricky. But my issue is with their ages, or to put it better their difference in age, when Cat first arrives in Winterfell w/ baby Robb and finds Jon there. And while I think Jon can be either younger or older than Robb, their ages have to be close enough. I'm no expert but I think it would be very difficult to make people believe a baby is months younger than he actually is. 

I don't think it's a question of Jon and Rob only being a few months apart. I think Jon is noticeably much older than Rob when Catelyn arrives. I don't think it's a question of making Ned's loyalists and family retainers believe that Jon is younger.  It's the official story they all have to maintain because their Lord says so. I also have no doubt that Jon was kept out of sight and out of mind during his infancy.  This is the first fiction that Ned has to maintain.  The second is that Jon is actually his son.  This explain much about Catelyn's behavior towards Jon and why Ned wonders to himself what Catelyn would do in Cersei's place if she knew the truth.   Even after 14 years, those who know something still tip toe around the subject when Arya is told about Wylla from Ned Dayne and she is told to let the dead lie and not to mention anything of it to Catelyn.

[Orphalesion]

On 12/1/2017 at 10:18 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I’m sick of people dismissing this out of hand when all they’ve ever noticed is the lemon tree part.

That's funny...because I'm sick of people desperately scrambling to piece together BS theories because they don't like the idea that Jon's parentage has been figured out long before it will be officially released.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Bless you, child, for the lifting of mountains to switch a baby's bassanette.  Softer reading is recommended on a trial basis, on the off chance you may be reading overhard?    

Alas I see the mountain made baskets will not a vale me? 

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Every child's parentage is in doubt, which is the series' primary joy and chief instructive tool: with all of them willing to die and kill for incorrect banners, the pointlessness of it all is underscored.   

I think there is a big difference between not being defined by a family and it being pointless, so I'm only half with you so far.

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Yet this switcheroo takes a baby from the inner circle of Targs and deposits her back down in.... the inner circle of Targs.   So I don't see the point of doing all that leg work to achieve an essentially identical baby.   

Because the mother matters too, and it would put her in the Stark family, as opposed to being 100% targ... you know, ice AND fire.

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I'm open to the possibility, I just can't get excited about it because it's a very bland switcheroo that packs all the explosive revelatory potential of a Jeb Bush campaign. 

Given the current president, anything else can and will be taken as a complement.

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 If she can already earn it by paying the iron price, what's the point of hanging a better birthright on her? 

She has an sea to cross, well two... she hardly has this thing wrapped up. Not to mention it's almost inconceivable she keeps all those dragons to herself.

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Same for Jon, whom I hope never even finds out about his actual claim, because it's moot when you're already sitting on the throne because the people hoisted you up onto it en masse. 

Oh you're talking about the tv show...

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And since Targs allow threesomes and such there's already room for both of them on an enlarged sectional sofa throne anyways.

Tyrion is small, he can fit too right?

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So while I readily admit lemon trees are weird and something hinky is afoot in her childhood recollections, I already see her mandate as more legit than any birthright can bestow, because everywhere we look we see highborn idjits who don't deserve their station, so one comes to see no legitimacy in their legitimacy, and one yearns to see the apple cart turned over, not legitimized.

She is literally the prime example of hereditary power... she derives her power from her birthright and her blood literally gave her dragons. She is the paragon of privilege... she is the apple cart and 

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Excellent longness, though.   And follow through, which any golfer will tell you is the main part of greatness.

Thanks?

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's a question of Jon and Rob only being a few months apart. I think Jon is noticeably much older than Rob when Catelyn arrives.

I could be wrong but I have no recollection of anything pointing towards Jon being "noticeably older" than Robb when Cat and Robb arrive.

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's a question of making Ned's loyalists and family retainers believe that Jon is younger.  It's the official story they all have to maintain because their Lord says so. I also have no doubt that Jon was kept out of sight and out of mind during his infancy.  This is the first fiction that Ned has to maintain. 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here... 

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The second is that Jon is actually his son.  This explain much about Catelyn's behavior towards Jon and why Ned wonders to himself what Catelyn would do in Cersei's place if she knew the truth.   Even after 14 years, those who know something still tip toe around the subject when Arya is told about Wylla from Ned Dayne and she is told to let the dead lie and not to mention anything of it to Catelyn.

IMO everyone tiptoes around it b/c it's a delicate subject and it seems it's a well known fact, especially among the Stark household, that Cat hasn't exactly embraced Jon into the family, not b/c Jon is many months older than he's supposed to be. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

23 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

That's funny...because I'm sick of people desperately scrambling to piece together BS theories because they don't like the idea that Jon's parentage has been figured out long before it will be officially released.

Ok then what are you doing on a book forum when there hasn't been a book released in years? 

And I have no problem with things being figured out, it's just callin bullshit without an explanation I was trying to point out as childish and closminded. I have no problem with disagreement, but who am I kidding, you're not here for that, troll on

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I could be wrong but I have no recollection of anything pointing towards Jon being "noticeably older" than Robb when Cat and Robb arrive.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here... 

IMO everyone tiptoes around it b/c it's a delicate subject and it seems it's a well known fact, especially among the Stark household, that Cat hasn't exactly embraced Jon into the family, not b/c Jon is many months older than he's supposed to be. 

There is no real confirmation of the differences between their ages.  I think Catelyn's behavior towards Jon indicates that she is aware that Jon is older than Rob and the reason why she is so eager to send him off to the Wall.  There is also something in Ned's privates thoughts that Jon is older and has a better claim as Lord either through Lyanna or by way of his paternity.  Luwin is an example of someone telling a white lie to maintain the fiction:  that bastards grow up faster than true born children.

Ned is the Lord of Winterfell.  His household has to maintain the 'official' story of Jon's paternity.

There are all kinds of reasons why Cat is hateful towards Jon.  It isn't just the old story of Ashara because that's hardly relevant anymore.  It's clear that Ned has come to love her.  It is Jon specifically who threatens Cat or more specifically Rob's position of first born son.  As far as Cat knows, Ned is Jon's father.  If she was certain that Jon was younger than Rob; I doubt she would feel so threatened.    

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok then what are you doing on a book forum when there hasn't been a book released in years? 

And I have no problem with things being figured out, it's just callin bullshit without an explanation I was trying to point out as childish and closminded. I have no problem with disagreement, but who am I kidding, you're not here for that, troll on

Thanks for calling that one out.  I'm sick of that crap as well.   Anyone entering the conversation chest first and dragging their knuckles behind them should leave the room.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that telling a 14-yr-old from a 15-yr-old can be very tricky. But my issue is with their ages, or to put it better their difference in age, when Cat first arrives in Winterfell w/ baby Robb and finds Jon there. And while I think Jon can be either younger or older than Robb, their ages have to be close enough. I'm no expert but I think it would be very difficult to make people believe a baby is months younger than he actually is. 

So trying to put yourself in Cat's shoes is a dangerous game...

I mean how did she see this happens in her head? Ned impregnates who when? 

And how closely did she even ever look at baby bastard Jon? Every indication is she did her best to shut him out.

but the ages for Jon and Robb are going to be pretty close no matter what, and it's not like they met right upon being born. A few months either way and they could be said to be "of an age".

So I don't think Cat's opinion is worth much on the subject... given her behavior towards Jon and inherent bias wanting him to be younger.

What about other Northerners? 

We know the rumors about Ashara stopped when Ned gave the command (when was this relationship supposed to take place according to the stories anyway? I'm not sure how Cat imagines this and still thinks Rob is older)

we also hear a rumor that Ned traveled north from the Vale with a fisherman's daughter... but of course even a cursory understanding of time will show you this would make Jon older than Robb.

I'm going to stick with the two boys were within a year of each other... Anyway I'm interested if others have found anything else regarding this, we just have a lot of rumor and not a lot of evidence regarding Jon and Robb's relative age. 

[The Commentator]

The possible daughter(s)/son(s)/child(ren) of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are bastards.  Willem Darry, Oberyn Martell, and the Sealord of Braavos would not stick their necks out for bastards.  Dany is the daughter of King Aerys and Queen Rhaella. She's the heir to the Seven Kingdoms.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The possible daughter(s)/son(s)/child(ren) of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are bastards.  Willem Darry, Oberyn Martell, and the Sealord of Braavos would not stick their necks out for bastards.  Dany is the daughter of King Aerys and Queen Rhaella. She's the heir to the Seven Kingdoms.

A. We don't know if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. But it's very hard to explain the Kingsguard presence at the Tower of Joy if they were not.

B. I'm saying Willem Darry, Oberyn, and the Sealord of Braavos did not stick there necks out for her. Dany is never mentioned in the wedding pact, and I'm suggesting Dany never was cared for by Darry. Oberyn (in my head) would have been dropping Dany off into exile (because like Ned they don't kill children), the opposite of sticking his neck out.

C. She's not the heir if Aegon is real or Jon is legitimate. And frankly if Aegon is a Blackfyre he might have a better claim anyway.

D. Stating things as fact do not make them so. But if you want to use some quotes and argue something, of course be my guest.

[LynnS]

 

43 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm going to stick with the two boys were within a year of each other... Anyway I'm interested if others have found anything else regarding this, we just have a lot of rumor and not a lot of evidence regarding Jon and Robb's relative age. 

I agree although I think that Ashara is Dany's mother by Rhaegar.   If you will permit me to offer an alternative.

When Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in the HoU; Rhaegar claims that Aegon is the prince who is promised; he then looks at someone in the room and says 'there must be one more'.  The person most likely to be in the birthing room is one of Elia's ladies, most likely Ashara.

I suspect that Rhaegar knows more about the prophecy than we do, and that he traded songs for dreams, from the original seer, on his trips to Summerhall.  This points to the Ghost of High Heart.  I think what he learned from her changed his mind that he was the PwiP.  He's also aware that there must be one more; the dragon with three heads.  This turns out to be Dany, confirmed by Aegon because she hatches the dragon eggs.  The ability to do so is in Targ bloodline. 

Martin has made a point us showing us that Starks look like Starks, Baratheons look like Baratheons and Targs look like Targs.  Dany has the Targ beauty and typical phyiscal characteristics but she also looks like Ashara Dayne's daughter according to Barristan.  Dany's dragon dream depicts her line of ancestor kings holding the pale sword which ties her to the mysterious Daynes IMO.  The ancestor line is something depicted in Jaime's dreams and Jon's dreams of the kings in their crypts.

Whatever Rhaegar thinks the destiny of the PwiP might be; I think it's more along the lines that he will bring peace, prosperity and justice to the realm, while the dragon with three heads is something else entirely.  If he knew the future in some way, I think it likely that he conceived Dany shortly after Aegon was born and also took steps to hide and secure both children.

What he might have thought about Lyanna or why he gave her the crown of roses might say something about his knowledge of her part or the Stark's part in the song of ice and fire and Lyanna's progeny;  I don't think Jon is his son or one of the heads of the dragon or required to have Targ blood for some reason.  If he becomes a dragon rider, it will because Mance found a dragon binding horn; the very horn that Melisandre 'burns' in her circus of fire.

Jon's destiny is tied up with the forces of ice rather than fire; the horned lord rather than Azor Ahai.  With something of the story of the Night's King who gave his 'seed' to the corpse queen. As Ravenous Reader has pointed out corns are seeds.  

So I give you this from that precocious bird, Mormont's Raven:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion.

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

Jon Snow, Corn King.  Jon Snow - seed of a King. 

What is Robert Baratheon if he isn't the horned lord, the crowned stag or Lyanna always his dead queen?

In Jon Arryn's drug-induced visions, is he talking about all of Robert's bastards or just one, when he says the 'seed is strong, tell them, tell Robert his seed is strong'?   Is this really about black hair and blue eyes or strength of character?  Of all 16 bastards, 3 are confirmed to have black hair/blue eyes; 2 with black hair only, the twins have no description. Where are the other 9?  Mayhaps they don't have black hair/blue eyes and are never identified. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in the HoU; Rhaegar claims that Aegon is the prince who is promised; he then looks at someone in the room and says 'there must be one more'.  The person most likely to be in the birthing room is one of Elia's ladies, most likely Ashara.

I tried to avoid getting to far into the HotU since it basically is the weeds... but...

I do think the fact that Dany identified Rhaegar on her own is important (as opposed to Aerys who she does not recognize). But I think Rhaegar is looking at Dany in the vision...

Then again,

The Wolf Headed King at the feast of the dead, looking to her with "mute appeal", I don't think is the Red Wedding... the only conspicuously silent direwolf is Ghost (and the crown is wrong for Robb). 

Of course I love the "wake the dragon" dream, but I tend to associate dreams of the dead with the old gods... Jaime has his ancestor dream on a weirwood stump, Jon has his, and these I believe are Dany's ancestors:

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Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.

Sounds like Targaryens to me...

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"Not clever enough?" The speaker wore a black cloak bordered in scarlet satin, but underneath was raiment bright as flame, all reds and yellows and golds. Slim and straight as a dirk, though only of middling height, he was near Dunk's own age. Curls of silver-gold hair framed a face sculpted and imperious; high brow and sharp cheekbones, straight nose, pale smooth skin without blemish. His eyes were a deep violet color.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the swords of pale fire could be like Dawn, or like the blades of the Others, or even possibly like the original Ice.

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She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So trying to put yourself in Cat's shoes is a dangerous game...

I mean how did she see this happens in her head? Ned impregnates who when? 

We don't know, Cat never once thinks it through, as in, how she thinks the whole thing happened. Only that one time when she hears about Ashara Dayne, and Ned tells her he doesn't want to hear about it. I imagine she believes Ashara is Jon's mother, or at least a likely candidate. 

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And how closely did she even ever look at baby bastard Jon? Every indication is she did her best to shut him out.

Maybe she did her best to shut him out throughout the years, but I bet she looked at him very closely when she first arrived at Winterfell w/ Robb. How could she not? She arrives in her new home w/ her baby and finds a husband she barely knows w/ a baby he claims is his bastard son. Questions like "Who does he look like?", or "How old is he?" are obvious ones for Cat to have asked herself in those early days/weeks/months. 

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but the ages for Jon and Robb are going to be pretty close no matter what, and it's not like they met right upon being born. A few months either way and they could be said to be "of an age".

Yes, I agree Jon and Robb are very close in age. So Jon can't be almost an year older than Robb. 

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So I don't think Cat's opinion is worth much on the subject... given her behavior towards Jon and inherent bias wanting him to be younger.

I disagree, I think some of Cat's thoughts on this are very important.

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What about other Northerners? 

What about them?

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We know the rumors about Ashara stopped when Ned gave the command (when was this relationship supposed to take place according to the stories anyway? I'm not sure how Cat imagines this and still thinks Rob is older)

Well, Cat knows when Robb was conceived. And she believes Ned fathered Jon during the war; Ned rode to war after his wedding to Cat and subsequent conceiving of Robb. 

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we also hear a rumor that Ned traveled north from the Vale with a fisherman's daughter... but of course even a cursory understanding of time will show you this would make Jon older than Robb.

Yes, we hear it through Davos, long after Cat's death. Regardless, the issue is still the same: the idea that Jon is many months older than Robb doesn't really work for me. 

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I'm going to stick with the two boys were within a year of each other... 

To me Jon and Robb can't be more than 2mo apart either way. 

 

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Anyway I'm interested if others have found anything else regarding this, we just have a lot of rumor and not a lot of evidence regarding Jon and Robb's relative age. 

I don't think there is much other than what we've been talking about for years now.

 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is no real confirmation of the differences between their ages.  I think Catelyn's behavior towards Jon indicates that she is aware that Jon is older than Rob and the reason why she is so eager to send him off to the Wall. 

Sorry but there is no indication of such knowledge on her part. Her husband is making her not just to live under the same roof with his bastard but sit with him at the same table, as if he had the same status as her trueborn children. Ned is fiercely and irrationally protective of him, from which she deduces that he must have loved Jon's mother dearly, and the bastard keeps besting Robb. Enough reasons for her to feel uncomfortable around him and want him gone.

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is also something in Ned's privates thoughts that Jon is older and has a better claim as Lord either through Lyanna or by way of his paternity. 

I'm afraid you're misremembering, Ned has no such thoughts about Jon. The "better claim" pertains to Robert, when he tells Ned that he should have become king.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Luwin is an example of someone telling a white lie to maintain the fiction:  that bastards grow up faster than true born children.

Which would make everyone totally stupid to believe and never question it, not once.

The quote is brought up in the context of Jon being too young to go to the Wall, and has nothing to do with physical growth.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned is the Lord of Winterfell.  His household has to maintain the 'official' story of Jon's paternity.

There is nothing to maintain, they all believe that Ned is the father. As for the mother, tongues are wagging, of course. If there were any doubts about Jon's age, they would have been hinted at. They're not.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

There are all kinds of reasons why Cat is hateful towards Jon.  It isn't just the old story of Ashara because that's hardly relevant anymore.  It's clear that Ned has come to love her.  It is Jon specifically who threatens Cat or more specifically Rob's position of first born son.  As far as Cat knows, Ned is Jon's father.  If she was certain that Jon was younger than Rob; I doubt she would feel so threatened.    

I've listed the reasons above. A capable bastard of an age with her own son can be a threat, regardless if he is olde or younger by a couple of months.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don't know, Cat never once thinks it through, as in, how she thinks the whole thing happened. Only that one time when she hears about Ashara Dayne, and Ned tells her he doesn't want to hear about it. I imagine she believes Ashara is Jon's mother, or at least a likely candidate. 

And so I'm staying with my conclusion that Cat is not a good source of information about Jon... she is wrong, and frankly horrible, enough regaurding jon so as to render any other opinions she has about him unreliable.

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Maybe she did her best to shut him out throughout the years, but I bet she looked at him very closely when she first arrived at Winterfell w/ Robb. How could she not?

Do you really mean that? Just a few ideas would be by not speaking to Jon, by not acknowledging him when he's around, by not teaching him, by not raising him as her own, and worse by being unnecessarily cruel to him when they do interact... you know, how her behavior toward him is always described in the series.

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She arrives in her new home w/ her baby and finds a husband she barely knows w/ a baby he claims is his bastard son. Questions like "Who does he look like?", or "How old is he?" are obvious ones for Cat to have asked herself in those early days/weeks/months. 

So is, who is the mom? She asked that... and...

Ned shut that question shit down... it's right there in black and white, like it says in the text: "Never ask me about Jon." 

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Yes, I agree Jon and Robb are very close in age. So Jon can't be almost an year older than Robb. 

Meh, I think you are just making up lines in the sand now... there is plenty of timeline leeway for a few months here or there, put down your stopwatch and ruler, close enough.

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I disagree, I think some of Cat's thoughts on this are very important.

Such as?

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What about them?

They clearly had different opinions/stories/rumors about Jon's mom/age/story... there may be some truth to them, or at least they should be held up as other examples of opinion next to Cat.

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Well, Cat knows when Robb was conceived. And she believes Ned fathered Jon during the war; Ned rode to war after his wedding to Cat and subsequent conceiving of Robb.

Ned was already fighting the war when he marries Cat... he had just won the battle of the bells, which resulted in Connington's exile and Hightower being sent to get Rhaegar from the ToJ. 

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Yes, we hear it through Davos, long after Cat's death. Regardless, the issue is still the same: the idea that Jon is many months older than Robb doesn't really work for me. 

To me Jon and Robb can't be more than 2mo apart either way. 

I mean again you're just drawing arbitrary lines in the sand... this is basically what we know:

 

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Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. 

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence

 

On top of the very blurry timeline, where trying to accommodate "about a year" for all sorts of things, from Ned and Cat's time apart to the Seige of Storms End... clearly Cat never saw Jon as a newborn, he would be at minimum several months old before Cat arrived at Winterfell.

My question before was how Cat consolidates "chance met on campaign" with "Ashara Dayne" in her mind...  let alone the timeline for her hearing rumors.

 

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I don't think there is much other than what we've been talking about for years now.

 

There is always more to talk about!!!

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart,

I'm sure we've already had this argument before, but it's quite clear that Cat believes that Ned fathered the child after they were married. Otherwise it would say something like "Ned brought home a child AFTER the first year of their marriage" but it doesn't, it says he fathered the child IN the first year. Not found the child, or rescued the child, or anything that might imply the child was older - no, he fathered it, while she remained safe in her father's castle.

I just don't get how you and your contrarian crew can read George's words and conclude that he's wrong.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

28 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I'm sure we've already had this argument before, but it's quite clear that Cat believes that Ned fathered the child after they were married. Otherwise it would say something like "Ned brought home a child AFTER the first year of their marriage" but it doesn't, it says he fathered the child IN the first year. Not found the child, or rescued the child, or anything that might imply the child was older - no, he fathered it, while she remained safe in her father's castle.

I just don't get how you and your contrarian crew can read George's words and conclude that he's wrong.

Cat's words...

And I hate to be pedantic, but it doesn't say Ned fathered a kid in wedlock (would you believe it if it did?)

The quote says Cat learned of "Ned's fathering" in the first year...

Cat clearly implies this but has no possible way of knowing it... and she's wrong a lot... almost consistently so.

Not to mention the war lasted about a year, Ned left for about a year, the siege of storms end lasted about a year... can't all be right... the timeline is blurry, just the way it is.

Yes, Cat seems to think Ned conceived Jon after their wedding, but not only is there no good reason for her to think this, it's almost certainly untrue!

So I'm comfortable dismissing the rest of her flawed thinking on the matter. You can call that contrarian, but since we can't take everyone at face value, they're contradictory, I'm not really sure what you want out of a thoughtful discussion.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

"He put away his lance the day your lady mother wed your father. Afterward he became most pious, and was heard to say that only the Maiden could replace Queen Rhaella in his heart. His passion was impossible, of course. A landed knight is no fit consort for a princess of royal blood." 

And Daario Naharis is only a sellsword, not fit to buckle on the golden spurs of even a landed knight.

 

...

Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

...

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance." 

"He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed.

...

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly.

 

 

Dany wishes to be carried off like Lyanna, not just to pass over her love like Rhaella did with Bonifer Hasty...

 

[Naive Reader]

I'm sure this must have been mentioned before, but she is also known as Daenerys Stormborn and we know of course that Storm is a bastard name. It could be a hint that her parents aren't who we are led to believe.