Why I believe Dany is the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, I do remember a couple of things when I was 3-4, but never mind. All the time Dany supposedly lived elsewhere, there must have been another "Dany" living in Braavos with Viserys and Willem Darry, because the real Dany's appearance a couple of years later would elicit quite some reaction and suspicion in KL. Yet, such a thing is never referenced.

Only time will tell unfortunately. We need Winds/ADOS. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

40 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Wait, young girls are skinny?  Or might be considered skinny by older and larger male siblings?

Look, I appreciate pointing out connections where they are there but this is hardly mindblowing stuff here.

Maybe not mind blowing... but the parallel between these two sections in these two main character’s first chapters seems clear to me...

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"She's too skinny," Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, "Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?" 

"She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal," Illyrio told him, not for the first time. "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

...

She watched her little brother whack at Tommen. "I could do just as good as Bran," she said. "He's only seven. I'm nine."

Jon looked her over with all his fourteen-year-old wisdom. "You're too skinny," he said. He took her arm to feel her muscle. Then he sighed and shook his head. "I doubt you could even lift a longsword, little sister, never mind swing one." 

Arya snatched back her arm and glared at him. Jon messed up her hair again. They watched Bran and Tommen circle each other.

 

 

These scene’s have distinct parallels and are almost like an inverse of each other... 

 

Both “brothers” call them “too skinny”...

But one about appearing attractive and one about fighting.

 

Both scenes highlight the hair of the young lady, which matches that of her “brother”...

But one about looks/appearance and the other feeling/affection.

 

Both scenes highlight swords...

But one is borrowed and Viserys doesn’t know what he’s doing while the other highlights training and foreshadows Jon’s gifting Arya with a blade she can wield.

 

Both scenes refer to the age of the girl...

But Dany it’s about being too young and Arya it’s about being older than Bran.

 

One scene is abusive and creepy about selling a woman for an army, the other is affectionate and heartwarming about a girl wanting to fight for herself.

 

One scene has a true born girl and her “brother” who’s parents aren’t who we are led to think, the other is a true born boy and the sister who’s parents aren’t who we are led to think.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

These scene’s have distinct parallels and are almost like an inverse of each other... 

One scene is abusive and creepy about selling a woman for an army, the other is affectionate and heartwarming about a girl wanting to fight for herself.

 

One scene has a true born girl and her “brother” who’s parents aren’t who we are led to think, the other is a true born boy and the sister who’s parents aren’t who we are led to think.

I believe the bolded is the crux of the parallel/inversion, and it works perfectly without any identity switches. In fact, making Dany a cousin rather than a sister would, to a degree, detract from the depravity of Viserys' relationship to her.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don’t really have any issue believing Robert wouldn’t/didn’t know where Viserys was or what he was up to.

"I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you." - In other words, Robert wanted to have Dany and Viserys killed, but Jon Arryn dissuaded him. Doesn't sound like a man who would be content with not knowing

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As far as I can tell he never would have known anything about them at all is Varys hasn’t told him (and he is a conspirator himself, working with Illyrio).

And Varys needs to build Robert's trust in him, so he can hardly afford not to provide the information.

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It wasn’t until after Viserys left Braavos and started rolling around Essos begging while under he watchful eye of Illyrio that they’re location was known.

The quote for this, please?

 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sorry I meant from the OP, it’s at the bottom under the Lyanna parallels... but point taken they aren’t specifically blue.

But the love of wildflowers is also shared by Arya, and both are called “too skinny” by their “brothers”.

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown splattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

I'd say this is too general to pass as a parallel. A lot of young girls are skinny, and a lot of them like flowers.

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…

Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowersevery day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt." She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo's lionskin.

Not sure what to think about this - she is indeed wearing the Stark colours but the coloring is wrong, it is reversed and doesn't parallel what Lyanna is wearing. There could be a hidden meaning - in ADWD, she daydreams about Daario coming to carry her off at swordpoint, like Rhaegar carried off Lyanna - but I don't think it hints at a hidden identity.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

37 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I believe the bolded is the crux of the parallel/inversion, and it works perfectly without any identity switches. In fact, making Dany a cousin rather than a sister would, to a degree, detract from the depravity of Viserys' relationship to her.

Except that Jon is really Arya’s cousin, not brother, which is the point...

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"I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you." - In other words, Robert wanted to have Dany and Viserys killed, but Jon Arryn dissuaded him. Doesn't sound like a man who would be content with not knowing

And Varys needs to build Robert's trust in him, so he can hardly afford not to provide the information.

The quote for this, please?

The quote you provided (except start a sentence earlier...

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The king's mouth twisted in a bitter grimace. "No, gods be cursed. Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate with pointy-hatted eunuchs all around them, and now he's handed them over to the Dothraki.

This makes clear he isn’t talking about any time spent in Braavos under the Sealord’s care, since that is the same situation as being in Pentos under Illyrio’s care. The time he is referring too is when they were wandering, Illyrio had been planning for years but only put them up under his protection relatively recently.

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I'd say this is too general to pass as a parallel. A lot of young girls are skinny, and a lot of them like flowers.

Ok, but this isn’t in isolation... just one of many parallels. In fact it’s hard to come up with anything we know about Lyanna which isn’t paralleled by Dany.

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Not sure what to think about this - she is indeed wearing the Stark colours but the coloring is wrong, it is reversed and doesn't parallel what Lyanna is wearing. There could be a hidden meaning - in ADWD, she daydreams about Daario coming to carry her off at swordpoint, like Rhaegar carried off Lyanna - but I don't think it hints at a hidden identity.

The color is reversed, just like bastards are want to do with their colors... She imagines herself as Rhaegar in his armor and being carried off like Lyanna. 

I do think it hints at who her parents are...

[DrunkenGoblin]

 

No idea whether this theory will prove to be true or not, but I generally would find it fitting for Dany and Jon to be siblings (and both being "ice and fire") ...for reasons of symmetry :D.

 

Jon and Dany are in so many ways “connected” by how opposite (?) or rather different they are placed in the story:

Growing up in the north and cold – growing up in the south and warmth

Raised as bastard – raised as princess

Has loving siblings – has a cruel sibling

Strongly connected to ice (direwolf companion) – strongly connected to fire (dragon companions)

Male – female

Dark and solemn (black hair) – fair and beautiful (silvery white hair)

 … but they both have that underlying and common theme of being saviours; rescuing people from being turned into zombies or being held as slaves, being dehumanized.

 

I think that Melisandre does give us hints about the real PTWP or Azor Ahai… but she has her own extremist black and white version of things. It’s just how she looks at the world.

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

Melisandre is an extremist believer, and I think she thinks more in extremes and opposites than trying to balance and find connections. She thinks she knows right from wrong and that there is no inbetween. I think it’s a hint, that Melisandre thinks that a man is either good OR evil, but GRRM says he wants to write about people who are “grey” and therefor good AND evil.

People think that there is one person who is the PTWP. And Aemon says that they assumed it would be a male prince, and then when he hears of Dany and her dragons, he thinks that that was a mistake in translation and now he thinks that it is a female princess as in Dany.

But why not both? Why does it have to be one or the other? The dragons are also BOTH, male and female, not male or female. Why can’t Dany and Jon together be the fulfillment of the prophecy? (and I don’t mean as couple, just in general, that they have to work together and find the magic balance in the combination of their opposites)

  

… so if Jon is actually partially Targaryen (fire), then for Dany to be the opposite (?) or matching part to him, she also needs to have a part of ice. Else there isn’t that flipped symmetry anymore. If she’s just pure fire, but he’s fire and ice, then they don’t have the symmetric picture anymore (like the yin yang has for example).  

 

Sorry for my English and unorganized thinking. I hope someone understands what I meant  

[Ygrain]

17 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Except that Jon is really Arya’s cousin, not brother, which is the point...

It really isn't. The loving relationship of Jon and Arya will not be undermined by them being cousins, and the parallel/inversion of the two situations doesn't need to be repeated to the minutest detail to work, that would be overdone. Literary or historical parallels never go that way, it would be convoluted and redundant, like some intellectual play for the sake of intellectualism.

17 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The quote you provided (except start a sentence earlier...

This makes clear he isn’t talking about any time spent in Braavos under the Sealord’s care, since that is the same situation as being in Pentos under Illyrio’s care. The time he is referring too is when they were wandering, Illyrio had been planning for years but only put them up under his protection relatively recently.

And where is it stated that they were walled up and well guarded back in Braavos? There were servants in the house with the red door, not armed guards. The quote applies to the whole period pre-Illyrio.

17 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The color is reversed, just like bastards are want to do with their colors... She imagines herself as Rhaegar in his armor and being carried off like Lyanna. 

I do think it hints at who her parents are...

I believe that important persons or moments are part of a character development without necessarily hinting at anyone's parentage, and that the mention of Lyanna's abduction is a device for the gradual reveal of the R+L mystery, which has been sparsely presented through Dany's eyes ever since her first AGOT chapter.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

It really isn't. The loving relationship of Jon and Arya will not be undermined by them being cousins, and the parallel/inversion of the two situations doesn't need to be repeated to the minutest detail to work, that would be overdone. Literary or historical parallels never go that way, it would be convoluted and redundant, like some intellectual play for the sake of intellectualism.

I see Jon’s relationship with Arya as a fantastic foyal for his relation to Dany.

One is the sister he was raised with, the other sister by birth.

That doesn’t lessen his relationship with Arya, if anything it might show how there are things more important than blood. 

It also happens to echo Aegon and his two sisters quite well, given the three characters in question’s names end the same way as the conquering trio’s.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And where is it stated that they were walled up and well guarded back in Braavos? There were servants in the house with the red door, not armed guards. The quote applies to the whole period pre-Illyrio.

What about the four loyal men?

We have no idea how well the Sealord’s palace was guarded, but I have to imagine there were more guards around than when they were wandering from city to city as the beggar king and co.

I believe Illyrio saying he had planned Dany’s wedding for years (when Viserys and she had only stayed with him for less than a year) implies there was a reason Illyrio wanted them running around Essos. My thought is that it was to reinforce her identity to the world. But I do think this period of wandering is what Robert is referring to. The fact that the marriage pact with Dorne, signed in Braavos, didn’t mention Dany only plays into this theory.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I believe that important persons or moments are part of a character development without necessarily hinting at anyone's parentage, and that the mention of Lyanna's abduction is a device for the gradual reveal of the R+L mystery, which has been sparsely presented through Dany's eyes ever since her first AGOT chapter.

Of course you may be exactly right, but what’s interesting to me is the amount of Lyanna/Stark references and imagery which appear in her PoVs.

From the first woman mentioned in her first chapter, Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved, to her natural ability to ride her silver (also stark colored) without training (even described like Lyanna as being one with the beast), to the shadows (wolf and man aflame) in MMD’s tent, to the House of the Undying where she sees a wolf king and a dragon king. The list goes on... so yes I think it’s part of her character arc, but I think there is a reason so much of the R+L stuff is in her chapters, I think she’s part of the reveal.

[Ygrain]

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

One is the sister he was raised with, the other sister by birth.

But again: this is a sort of intellectual exercise, which is not something that can be used to drive the story on.

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What about the four loyal men?

Perhaps they were loyal enough to help Darry save the Targlings, but not so loyal as to be self-exiled for years?

Not to mention that four men is not exactly an unsurmountable obstacle.

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

We have no idea how well the Sealord’s palace was guarded, but I have to imagine there were more guards around than when they were wandering from city to city as the beggar king and co.

You're certainly right, but I don't think Dany's memories are consistent with staying in a palace. Sounds more like an estate, perhaps a sort of guesthouse?

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I believe Illyrio saying he had planned Dany’s wedding for years (when Viserys and she had only stayed with him for less than a year) implies there was a reason Illyrio wanted them running around Essos. My thought is that it was to reinforce her identity to the world. But I do think this period of wandering is what Robert is referring to. The fact that the marriage pact with Dorne, signed in Braavos, didn’t mention Dany only plays into this theory.

Alright, let's take a look at it from a different angle. Even if Dany and Vis were indeed staying with the Sea Lord, does this necessarily mean that Robert wouldn't know, or wouldn't want to? Or that he wouldn't want to have them assassinated as soon as he learned, and only Jon Arryn's intervention prevented that? 

And even if you are right and Robert is referring to the period of wandering, comparing the relative easy with which they could have been offed then with the protection they are enjoying now, does this mean that there was a significant, several years long gap during which Viserys' location was unknown and that it was only after this gap that people learned about Dany's existence?

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Of course you may be exactly right, but what’s interesting to me is the amount of Lyanna/Stark references and imagery which appear in her PoVs.

From the first woman mentioned in her first chapter, Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved, to her natural ability to ride her silver (also stark colored) without training (even described like Lyanna as being one with the beast), to the shadows (wolf and man aflame) in MMD’s tent, to the House of the Undying where she sees a wolf king and a dragon king. The list goes on... so yes I think it’s part of her character arc, but I think there is a reason so much of the R+L stuff is in her chapters, I think she’s part of the reveal.

You are most likely right in this, because Jon being her nephew does make had part of the reveal :-)

As for Dany's chapters being full of R+L stuff, there is a very simple explanation: except Ned's, there was no other PoV which could naturally provide thoughts about Rhaegar and this part of the family history. Other PoVs come across the info in various chunks and bits but none has the knowledge, and reason, to think back about that time much. Whereas for Dany, who idolizes her dead brother, it comes naturally to think about him or enquire with those who might know more, like Barristan.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

But again: this is a sort of intellectual exercise, which is not something that can be used to drive the story on.

Perhaps they were loyal enough to help Darry save the Targlings, but not so loyal as to be self-exiled for years?

It’s possible, just saying it’s another unanswered question... my guess is they died at the same time as the old Sealord of Braavos, the one served by Syrio Forrel.

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Not to mention that four men is not exactly an unsurmountable obstacle.

Haha true.

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You're certainly right, but I don't think Dany's memories are consistent with staying in a palace. Sounds more like an estate, perhaps a sort of guesthouse?

I don’t think she ever did stay in Braavos under the care of the Sealord, so you’ll find no argument from me there. It sounds like a house in Dorne.

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Alright, let's take a look at it from a different angle. Even if Dany and Vis were indeed staying with the Sea Lord, does this necessarily mean that Robert wouldn't know, or wouldn't want to? Or that he wouldn't want to have them assassinated as soon as he learned, and only Jon Arryn's intervention prevented that? 

What I’m suggesting is that Danny and Viserys were only united when Viserys was leaving Braavos, Danny grew up in Dorne (first 5ish years) and her memory of arriving in Braavos was actually her first arrival and when she began traveling about Essos with Viserys. Maybe sent there by a sick and dying grey bear protector she now conflates with Ser Darry. At this time the Sealord of Braavos died, as did the actual Willem Darry, and the two kids start there travels begging around Essos, but under the eye of Illyrio. Illyrio, who conveniently works with Varys, supplies the information about their whereabouts. Jon Arryn talks Robert out of sending knives, but Dany is still told they are running from the Usurper’s knives.

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And even if you are right and Robert is referring to the period of wandering, comparing the relative easy with which they could have been offed then with the protection they are enjoying now, does this mean that there was a significant, several years long gap during which Viserys' location was unknown and that it was only after this gap that people learned about Dany's existence?

That is basically what I’m suggesting, about 5 years while Viserys was in Braavos. His location can’t be a total secret, Oberyn found him, but I don’t think Illyrio-Varys had yet, or at least hadn’t told Robert. 

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You are most likely right in this, because Jon being her nephew does make had part of the reveal :-)

As for Dany's chapters being full of R+L stuff, there is a very simple explanation: except Ned's, there was no other PoV which could naturally provide thoughts about Rhaegar and this part of the family history. Other PoVs come across the info in various chunks and bits but none has the knowledge, and reason, to think back about that time much. Whereas for Dany, who idolizes her dead brother, it comes naturally to think about him or enquire with those who might know more, like Barristan.

This doesn’t explain the Lyanna stuff... 

I hear what you are saying, I just think there is a lot more there than simply a convienient place to infodump... especially given how much of it is imagery and little details as opposed to historical facts.

[Damon_Tor]

On 2/23/2018 at 7:14 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So maybe I wasn’t clear since this has come up a few times but I still think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s kid, Dany would be his little sister... I just think Dany’s who arc is about finding out who she is and who her family is. I agree the blue rose is Lyanna’s calling card, I just think both Jon and Danny are her kids.

I think the problem there is that the blue flowers aren't just associated with Lyana and Rhaegar, but specifically with her bed of blood, ie, to whichever child killed her. Since a variety of signs point to Jon being older that Ned says he is, and with Dany being younger than him even in the given narrative, it would be difficult to make Jon the second child and have it make sense. Maybe they're twins and the age difference between them (stated to be 8 or 9 months via Word of God) is a deliberate deception? There's some poetry there, but I don't enjoy the idea that GRRM directly lies to us. And it feels a bit too derivative of Star Wars to me.

On 2/23/2018 at 7:41 AM, LynnS said:

I don't think it's a tall order at all.  It's only a tall order if people are dumping everything they see regarding flowers and roses into RLJ without looking at any other text.  I've given a reasonable alternate explanation.  It creates cognitive dissonance that roses aren't just associated with Jon or Lyanna, so people fall back behind their own walls.  

Another argument that has been made is the 'flowers' represent females in the story, not males.  Dany sees a 'blue flower' - Jorah is the one who makes the leap that it's a blue rose, but he didn't see what Dany saw in HoU.  How do we know Dany saw a rose just because the flower is blue?  Shireen is also at the Wall.  The Florent sigil contains a laurel of blue flowers.

That's a good catch, but it seems unlikely. Each line of The Bride of Fire stanza referring to one of Daenery's husbands (or more likely in my view, the fathers of her children) makes sense on a number of levels: one would then have to come up with an alternate interpretation of that line, and the stanza as a whole, as well. Of one hypothesis explains 75% of the known data then a competing hypothesis that only explains 25% of the known data can't really compete until that gap is closed.

However, going against my above paragraph, it occurs to me that both Drogo and Shireen could both occupy a list of "people burned to fuel magic" which could well make them "brides of fire". It goes no further to explain line #2 of the stanza, but that's a bit of a question mark for the "husbands/fathers" hypothesis as well. Of course the implication of the prophecy is that Daenerys is herself the Bride of Fire. Maybe this means that "These three people burned, and so will you" or something to that effect.

Worth some thought anyway.