Alexis-something-Rose Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 26 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: We don’t get a witness to the birth or the escape from dragonstone except Viserys, who we know for a fact is lying about other things to Dany (namely the usurper’s knives, and the midnight/morning departure from King’s Landing). I have to ask about the usurper's knives, though. Is this Viserys lying, or is this Viserys's paranoia and own madness beginning to show? Or is it someone who has been feeding him false information that Robert was sending assassins after him and his sister forcing them to run? It didn't seem there were usurper's knives after them until Willem Darry died. And as far as his recollections of the "escape" from King's Landing. Viserys was 7 when that happened. I personally give him a pass on this one. I can see a boy his age building a different story in his mind and sticking to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 35 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Look, I completely agree that the Blue Rose is a symbol tied first, foremost, and intentionally meant to make the reader think of Lyanna... But it’s not accurate to say it’s the only connection... So Rhaegar, who likes musicians, falls for the Blue Bard. And since Rhaegar is a dragon, he can change his sex at will (hey, it's the 21st century, after all, and we all know he swings both ways). Hence, we can conclude that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but she will become the prince that was promised (after she changes her sex), and Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and the Blue Bard. I will be discussing this in my weekly podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Is it though? He wasn’t there, and we are hearing about it years later after the news of Darry’s escape to Essos is public knowledge. There is no evidence of what he was told or if there were still witnesses to the birth and death on Dragonstone. Years later, Stannis still complains how Robert told him off because he had failed to secure the children. Do you think Robert learned only years later that there was supposed to be another child except Viserys? 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: We don’t get a witness to the birth or the escape from dragonstone except Viserys, who we know for a fact is lying about other things to Dany (namely the usurper’s knives, and the midnight/morning departure from King’s Landing). I don't think he was lying in this respect, it was a genuine paranoia. 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Look, I completely agree that the Blue Rose is a symbol tied first, foremost, and intentionally meant to make the reader think of Lyanna... But it’s not accurate to say it’s the only connection... No, poor Blue Bard does NOT have a connection to the blue winter roses. He has connection to colour blue and blue roses exist in Westeros, so when he is all in blue, Cersei makes an ironic remark that the roses must have been blue, as well. That's not the same as saying that has has some connection to blue roses or is symbolized by blue roses or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Look, I completely agree that the Blue Rose is a symbol tied first, foremost, and intentionally meant to make the reader think of Lyanna... But it’s not accurate to say it’s the only connection... Well I was asking LynnS who is trying to argue that the blue flower is connected with Bran not Jon but what makes you think that quote is meant to connect the Blue Bard to anything at all? I assume you don't think it does but went looking for anyone else connected with blue roses / flowers and that was what you could find, even if it's the most tenuous and inconsequential connection possible! 25 minutes ago, Ygrain said: Years later, Stannis still complains how Robert told him off because he had failed to secure the children. Do you think Robert learned only years later that there was supposed to be another child except Viserys? I don't think he was lying in this respect, it was a genuine paranoia. No, poor Blue Bard does NOT have a connection to the blue winter roses. He has connection to colour blue and blue roses exist in Westeros, so when he is all in blue, Cersei makes an ironic remark that the roses must have been blue, as well. That's not the same as saying that has has some connection to blue roses or is symbolized by blue roses or anything like that. Well, yes, I agree. Thank you for pointing out that winter roses are not just associated with Lyanna but another stolen Stark maiden who bore a child fathered by her kidnapper/husband. Now there's symbolism and some clues from GRRM for us to consider! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 41 minutes ago, Ygrain said: Years later, Stannis still complains how Robert told him off because he had failed to secure the children. Do you think Robert learned only years later that there was supposed to be another child except Viserys? They were gone when Stannis got to Dragonstone, and there is no evidence anyone remained who had witnessed a birth. They garrison was ready to mutiny and hand them over to Stannis. How and why would they know if a baby was born, or it’s name or anything? These would be facts filled in later maybe not years, but probably not at all right away, anyway the point is we are only hearing Stannis talk about it years later, so there is no indication of what he knew when. Quote I don't think he was lying in this respect, it was a genuine paranoia. Ok, I guess you mean lying as in “intentionally deceiving”, not just “telling a falsehood”. That’s fine, I’m not sure if Viserys was in on the scheme or just being used and duped himself, but it doesn’t really make any difference, he’s dead and was demonstrably telling Danny factually untrue things about her past. Quote No, poor Blue Bard does NOT have a connection to the blue winter roses. He has connection to colour blue and blue roses exist in Westeros, so when he is all in blue, Cersei makes an ironic remark that the roses must have been blue, as well. That's not the same as saying that has has some connection to blue roses or is symbolized by blue roses or anything like that. It’s a connection... you might not find it meaningful, or maybe it is a backhand reference to Lyanna, and Cersei still being bitter about how Robert treated her on her wedding night... but to say there is no connection is just being willfully ignorant, the quote is right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: So Rhaegar, who likes musicians, falls for the Blue Bard. And since Rhaegar is a dragon, he can change his sex at will (hey, it's the 21st century, after all, and we all know he swings both ways). Hence, we can conclude that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but she will become the prince that was promised (after she changes her sex), and Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and the Blue Bard. I will be discussing this in my weekly podcast. Come now my friend... dragons hate blue, it is known, they love pepper. Griffons love blue, that’s why Brienne has a rose thrown at her head by a griffon. They were on the isle of sapphires and she rides a horse barded in blue. You will recall that the Fiddler, a blackfyre pretender in disguise, appears barded in blue. And as we all know Loras Tyrell first appears in armor covered in blue sapphire flowers at the Hand’s Tourney. Loras and Brienne were both in love with Renly, who like peaches, not those peaches, the fruit. Jon Connington is a griphon and dyes his hair blue. He is also guarding young Griff, also has blue hair, he says to honor his mother. Clearly, while Jon Con was drinking himself silly he clearly met the Blue Bard in the tavern where a conjured lives in the basement and switches peoples sexes for a night... and switching your sex makes you a dragon... making Aegon the child of Jon Con and the Blue Bard. The mummer’s dragon. Wat wat wat? /S Quote I say, run off and play and leave the King's Hand to hear these tiresome petitions. We could dress as serving girls and spend the day amongst the smallfolk, to hear what they are saying of the fall of Dragonstone. I know the inn where the Blue Bard plays when he is not singing attendance on the little queen, and a certain cellar where a conjurer turns lead into gold, water into wine, and girls into boys. It’s not that there aren’t connections... it’s just about using them in rational ways... but that was fun. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 29 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said: Well I was asking LynnS who is trying to argue that the blue flower is connected with Bran not Jon but what makes you think that quote is meant to connect the Blue Bard to anything at all? I assume you don't think it does but went looking for anyone else connected with blue roses / flowers and that was what you could find, even if it's the most tenuous and inconsequential connection possible! Well, yes, I agree. Thank you for pointing out that winter roses are not just associated with Lyanna but another stolen Stark maiden who bore a child fathered by her kidnapper/husband. Now there's symbolism and some clues from GRRM for us to consider! 24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: They were gone when Stannis got to Dragonstone, and there is no evidence anyone remained who had witnessed a birth. They garrison was ready to mutiny and hand them over to Stannis. How and why would they know if a baby was born, or it’s name or anything? These would be facts filled in later maybe not years, but probably not at all right away, And there is no evidence that there was no-one who could have told Stannis. Rhaella was pregnant for 9 months during which she was not in isolation, so people would know that she was pregnant and gave birth. There would be servants fetching stuff for the Maester and the like... whole lot of people knowing what was going on. 24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: anyway the point is we are only hearing Stannis talk about it years later, so there is no indication of what he knew when. Nonsense. Stannis knew that a baby was born when he invaded the castle at the latest. 24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: It’s a connection... you might not find it meaningful, or maybe it is a backhand reference to Lyanna, and Cersei still being bitter about how Robert treated her on her wedding night... but to say there is no connection is just being willfully ignorant, the quote is right there. First, it is never indicated in any way that Cersei knows about Lyanna's love of blue roses, or that the QoLaB crown was made of blue roses. Second, if you are unable to follow how the Blue Bard made her think about blue roses and that it is not a reference to Lyanna in any way, well, what can I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Come now my friend... dragons hate blue, it is known, they love pepper. Griffons love blue, that’s why Brienne has a rose thrown at her head by a griffon. They were on the isle of sapphires and she rides a horse barded in blue. You will recall that the Fiddler, a blackfyre pretender in disguise, appears barded in blue. And as we all know Loras Tyrell first appears in armor covered in blue sapphire flowers at the Hand’s Tourney. Loras and Brienne were both in love with Renly, who like peaches, not those peaches, the fruit. Jon Connington is a griphon and dyes his hair blue. He is also guarding young Griff, also has blue hair, he says to honor his mother. Clearly, while Jon Con was drinking himself silly he clearly met the Blue Bard in the tavern where a conjured lives in the basement and switches peoples sexes for a night... and switching your sex makes you a dragon... making Aegon the child of Jon Con and the Blue Bard. The mummer’s dragon. Wat wat wat? /S It’s not that there aren’t connections... it’s just about using them in rational ways... but that was fun. lol According to my six year old and one of his favorite books, Dragons Love Tacos, dragons do NOT like pepper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ygrain said: And there is no evidence that there was no-one who could have told Stannis. Rhaella was pregnant for 9 months during which she was not in isolation, so people would know that she was pregnant and gave birth. There would be servants fetching stuff for the Maester and the like... whole lot of people knowing what was going on. There is the fact that the garrison of dragon stone wanted to turn Rhaella over to Stannis, and that Darry had “4 loyal men”... the implication being the rest were not loyal. The fact that Rhaella was pregnant isn’t being disputed, just that she gave birth to a living child. Who was the Maester at Dragonstone again? Quote Nonsense. Stannis knew that a baby was born when he invaded the castle at the latest. Why? Is here some reason I’m missing that you are so sure of this? Quote First, it is never indicated in any way that Cersei knows about Lyanna's love of blue roses, or that the QoLaB crown was made of blue roses. Second, if you are unable to follow how the Blue Bard made her think about blue roses and that it is not a reference to Lyanna in any way, well, what can I say. Setting aside that a connection can be for the reader and not knowingly used by a character... Wasn’t this my original point? Just because blue roses are Lyanna’s unofficial sigil (like Littlefinger and his mockingbird) it doesn’t mean that literally every mention of a blue rose is a direct reference to Lyanna. Maybe I was unclear what my point was... it can be connected to other things than Lyanna without taking away from it’s clearly meaningful connection to Lyanna. But blue flowers do appear connected to Dany more than anyone else besides Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Why? Is here some reason I’m missing that you are so sure of this? Alright, imagine the scenario that Stannis invades DS, sends his men after Viserys, and they come back empty-handed. What logically follows is an investigation. Do you think that all those people who were going to turn Viserys over wouldn't have mentioned the existence of the baby? - And I'm giving Stannis here the benefit of doubt concerning Rhaella's pregnancy, though I find it hardly believable that the information wouldn't have leaked, in which case he would have known prior that a baby was to be somewhere. Now, imagine the scenario when Stannis for some reason never hears about the existence of the baby or that Rhaella was pregnant. So he comes back to Robert, reports Viserys missing, and then a couple of months later, they learn that Viserys and his sister are in Braavos. Do you think that Robert would have just overlooked such a profound blunder on Stannis' part? Yet, what he tells Stannis off is failing to secure both children, not failing to find out there was a second child. 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Setting aside that a connection can be for the reader and not knowingly used by a character... But since you claimed that Cersei made the comment because she was still bitter about Robert whispering Lyanna, this is not the case. 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Wasn’t this my original point? Just because blue roses are Lyanna’s unofficial sigil (like Littlefinger and his mockingbird) it doesn’t mean that literally every mention of a blue rose is a direct reference to Lyanna. Maybe I was unclear what my point was... it can be connected to other things than Lyanna without taking away from it’s clearly meaningful connection to Lyanna. Ah, I see (I suppose). I would say that the blue roses connected to the Blue Bard aren't the blue roses, and therefore are insignificant. 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: But blue flowers do appear connected to Dany more than anyone else besides Lyanna. Which blue flowers? You don't mean that single blue flower/blue rose reference, I presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Given how dutiful he is, and how important it was to Robert, I can't imagine that Stannis didn't conduct a thorough investigation of the fate of the last of the Targaryens. I also find it hard to believe that Rhaelle didn't take a decent retiue with her when she left for Dragonstone. And Dragonstone was a stronghold of the Targaryens, and, from what I can tell, contains a decent civilian population. All of which gives Stannis plenty of people to question who would have useful knowledge. If there was any questions about the birth,, I think we would have heard by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Ygrain said: Alright, imagine the scenario that Stannis invades DS, sends his men after Viserys, and they come back empty-handed. What logically follows is an investigation. Do you think that all those people who were going to turn Viserys over wouldn't have mentioned the existence of the baby? - And I'm giving Stannis here the benefit of doubt concerning Rhaella's pregnancy, though I find it hardly believable that the information wouldn't have leaked, in which case he would have known prior that a baby was to be somewhere. Now, imagine the scenario when Stannis for some reason never hears about the existence of the baby or that Rhaella was pregnant. So he comes back to Robert, reports Viserys missing, and then a couple of months later, they learn that Viserys and his sister are in Braavos. Do you think that Robert would have just overlooked such a profound blunder on Stannis' part? Yet, what he tells Stannis off is failing to secure both children, not failing to find out there was a second child. But we are left imagining senerios is what I’m saying... and I can do that too... What if Ser Darry stole away from Dragonstone the night that Rhaella died, taking the nursemaid (we don’t even know if there was a maester, but if so he seemingly disappeared) and the four men loyal to him? They sail off secretly and the assumption is he took the baby with him. That would be the story Stannis was told, and I see no reason he would doubt it. It’s unclear who sent the ship to take him, since the Targaryen fleet was destroyed by the storm, but conspiracy could well have been underway. Quote But since you claimed that Cersei made the comment because she was still bitter about Robert whispering Lyanna, this is not the case. Ok, but then you said she wouldn’t know anything about blue roses re Lyanna... anyway I don’t think this point is worth fighting about. Quote Ah, I see (I suppose). I would say that the blue roses connected to the Blue Bard aren't the blue roses, and therefore are insignificant. I didn’t realize there were other blue roses, but ok... Quote Which blue flowers? You don't mean that single blue flower/blue rose reference, I presume. The vision she sees in the House of the Undying? And Daario’s flowers... I’m not saying it’s a lot, just more than anyone else. I mean, she even wears Stark colors and puts flowers in her hair... and then in the Dragon Birthing Pyre... Quote She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Spider Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 7 hours ago, Ygrain said: It is, but the part about being born in a storm and escaping DS is supported by other sources, e.g. Stannis. She could have been born on DS (im not disputing that. That's definitely true.) She could have traveled around for a bit then circled back in Dorne and was being hidden there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: What if Ser Darry stole away from Dragonstone the night that Rhaella died, taking the nursemaid (we don’t even know if there was a maester, but if so he seemingly disappeared) and the four men loyal to him? They sail off secretly and the assumption is he took the baby with him. That would be the story Stannis was told, and I see no reason he would doubt it. No problem with that. But, how long do you think it would take before the news of Viserys in Braavos would have taken to reach KL? Do you believe it would have been years? Because, for Dany to remember the red door and the like, she had to be at least three years old. And I find it hard to believe that Robert would be content not knowing where Viserys had gone for three years. 6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: It’s unclear who sent the ship to take him, since the Targaryen fleet was destroyed by the storm, but conspiracy could well have been underway. If the fleet was to be any good preventing the upcoming invasion, it had to be "parked" outside the port(s). Any ship not participating in the defence, or civilian ships, would have been in the safety of the harbour. I don't really see a contradiction here. 6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: The vision she sees in the House of the Undying? That's the one mention I was referring to. 6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: And Daario’s flowers... I mean, she even wears Stark colors and puts flowers in her hair... and then in the Dragon Birthing Pyre... I'll have to check on the passage when I get back home but I suppose it is never referred to again? 5 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said: She could have been born on DS (im not disputing that. That's definitely true.) She could have traveled around for a bit then circled back in Dorne and was being hidden there Not unless there was a different baby with Viserys poising as his sister. See above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Spider Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 @Ygrain no way could she have been 3. 3 year olds don't have that vivid of a memory. Maybe 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said: @Ygrain no way could she have been 3. 3 year olds don't have that vivid of a memory. Maybe 5. Well, I do remember a couple of things when I was 3-4, but never mind. All the time Dany supposedly lived elsewhere, there must have been another "Dany" living in Braavos with Viserys and Willem Darry, because the real Dany's appearance a couple of years later would elicit quite some reaction and suspicion in KL. Yet, such a thing is never referenced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 14 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: And Daario’s flowers... I’m not saying it’s a lot, just more than anyone else. I mean, she even wears Stark colors and puts flowers in her hair... and then in the Dragon Birthing Pyre... I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific. Concerning the flowers, it is stated in ASOS: On the road from Yunkai, Daario had brought her a flower or a sprig of some plant every evening when he made his report... to help her learn the land, he said. Waspwillow, dusky roses, wild mint, lady’s lace, daggerleaf, broom, prickly ben, harpy’s gold... Where is it stated that she put the flowers in her hair and what does it have to do with blue roses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 1, 2018 Author Share Posted March 1, 2018 7 hours ago, Ygrain said: No problem with that. But, how long do you think it would take before the news of Viserys in Braavos would have taken to reach KL? Do you believe it would have been years? Because, for Dany to remember the red door and the like, she had to be at least three years old. And I find it hard to believe that Robert would be content not knowing where Viserys had gone for three years. I don’t really have any issue believing Robert wouldn’t/didn’t know where Viserys was or what he was up to. As far as I can tell he never would have known anything about them at all is Varys hasn’t told him (and he is a conspirator himself, working with Illyrio). It wasn’t until after Viserys left Braavos and started rolling around Essos begging while under he watchful eye of Illyrio that they’re location was known. 7 hours ago, Ygrain said: If the fleet was to be any good preventing the upcoming invasion, it had to be "parked" outside the port(s). Any ship not participating in the defence, or civilian ships, would have been in the safety of the harbour. I don't really see a contradiction here. It’s possible... just an odd detail to include in a story which revolves around escaping by ship and crossing an ocean. Especially given that one odd memory of Dany’s, showing up in Braavos, on a ship with a great green sail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 1, 2018 Author Share Posted March 1, 2018 58 minutes ago, Ygrain said: I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific. Concerning the flowers, it is stated in ASOS: On the road from Yunkai, Daario had brought her a flower or a sprig of some plant every evening when he made his report... to help her learn the land, he said. Waspwillow, dusky roses, wild mint, lady’s lace, daggerleaf, broom, prickly ben, harpy’s gold... Where is it stated that she put the flowers in her hair and what does it have to do with blue roses? Sorry I meant from the OP, it’s at the bottom under the Lyanna parallels... but point taken they aren’t specifically blue. But the love of wildflowers is also shared by Arya, and both are called “too skinny” by their “brothers”. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown splattered with gore could only be Lyanna. … Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowersevery day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt." She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo's lionskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Sorry I meant from the OP, it’s at the bottom under the Lyanna parallels... but point taken they aren’t specifically blue. But the love of wildflowers is also shared by Arya, and both are called “too skinny” by their “brothers”. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown splattered with gore could only be Lyanna. … Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowersevery day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt." She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo's lionskin. Wait, young girls are skinny? Or might be considered skinny by older and larger male siblings? Look, I appreciate pointing out connections where they are there but this is hardly mindblowing stuff here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.