A question about the lemon tree

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Noticed a lot of this going around and not just with this theory.

Some folks get very touchy when others want to peak behind the curtain to see if something's there. Sometimes they dislike looking behind the curtain in principle, but other times I feel like I've unknowingly trampled on their graves emotionally-invested head canon ideas because some become inexplicably downright vicious if a question is even raised. Sometimes when I'm familiar with another poster's ideas, I can see where they dislike an idea because it works against a different idea that they favor. In this case, Dany's birth being not what they've been told might be seen as a threat to their ideas/wishes for Dany becoming Queen or that it works against a Jon/Dany ship.

A lot of people are invested in Dany's story as its traditionally understood by the fandom. Not so much investment in Varys and any emotional investment in Tyrion is quite unlike that of Dany. Perhaps that's what you're seeing?

It might become worse the longer it takes the remaining books to come out. Head canons will become more ingrained while others will become more bored and dig for more rocks to turn over.

Adding: also noticed that there are different comfort levels for magical conspiracies vs political conspiracies.

I feel bad for those with emotional investment in a particular character in this series. I don't think any of the main characters' arcs will end on happy notes. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well you can find lemon trees in several places including Braavos if you want to pot one and in Dany's dreams, all the doors a red; what stands out are the animal carvings on the beams of the house. This she remembers clearly.

 

I love how potting a plant and growing it in a glasshouse has now become the "non-crackpot" line of logic on this forum... The point isn't that a lemon tree in Braavos is entirely impossible, the point is that everything in the text suggests it would be out of place.

As for all the doors being red... I assume you are referring to this quote, and it's not that simple, it's all the doors in the red keep and dragonstone that are red, not just all doors:

Quote

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

Notice how It's dragonstone and the red keep, and explicitly not the plains. I don't think she's ever been to KL or Dragonstone in her life, but certainly wasn't old enough to remember... 

And yet the Red Door is consistently associated with "home" and westeros.

As opposed to the hedging she always does when referring to Braavos:

Quote

Not since those half-remembered days in Braavos when she lived in the house with the red door had she been as happy

Dany's memories of the red door are accompanied by qualifications like dreaming, half-remembered, never knew a home... 

At night all doors are black, she's in the dark and needs to pass beneath the shadow before she reaches the light (east west north south, yadda yadda). She must remember who she is...

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I love how potting a plant and growing it in a glasshouse has now become the "non-crackpot" line of logic on this forum... The point isn't that a lemon tree in Braavos is entirely impossible, the point is that everything in the text suggests it would be out of place.

As for all the doors being red... I assume you are referring to this quote, and it's not that simple, it's all the doors in the red keep and dragonstone that are red, not just all doors:

Notice how It's dragonstone and the red keep, and explicitly not the plains. I don't think she's ever been to KL or Dragonstone in her life, but certainly wasn't old enough to remember... 

And yet the Red Door is consistently associated with "home" and westeros.

As opposed to the hedging she always does when referring to Braavos:

Dany's memories of the red door are accompanied by qualifications like dreaming, half-remembered, never knew a home... 

At night all doors are black, she's in the dark and needs to pass beneath the shadow before she reaches the light (east west north south, yadda yadda). She must remember who she is...

 

Oh I don't disagree.  My point is that the red door isn't specific to one place nor is the lemon tree.  While, the house with the carved beams and the old man with a cane is very specific.  She speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accents, loves sailing and has made multiple voyages.  I'm not certain that all her 'memories' are memories at all but stories she has been told. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh I don't disagree.  My point is that the red door isn't specific to one place nor is the lemon tree.  While, the house with the carved beams and the old man with a cane is very specific.  She speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accents, loves sailing and has made multiple voyages.  I'm not certain that all her 'memories' are memories at all but stories she has been told. 

I'm with you there, the difference between the "memories" she hedges with stuff like half-remembered versus the details of her memories (which don't fit in Braavos) is consistent and begins in her first chapter and is still being reiterated in sample winds chapters...

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles

 

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them

One - "a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen". It doesn't even say what it's carved from - most likely wood, but it could be ivory, or jade or amber. But whatever it's made of, the animals are brightly painted and in full form as they're cavorting.

The other - "great wooden beams and the carved animal faces" doesn't mention them being painted brightly (or at all) and they're merely faces, not cavorting animals. And definitely wood.

So I'm not convinced that they're really similar. Not enough to supposedly be a clue that Dany isn't who she thinks. It would be like comparing the beams in a Viking longhall to a Polynesian canoe and claiming they must be from the same culture.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

So I'm not convinced that they're really similar. Not enough to supposedly be a clue that Dany isn't who she thinks. It would be like comparing the beams in a Viking longhall to a Polynesian canoe and claiming they must be from the same culture.

I hear you, it's not impossible just unlikely, but it's not nearly as preposterous as to say that "the great carved wooden beams" are from here:

Quote

She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered housesof the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Maybe Daenerys is really from Pentos...

Quote

The streets of Pentos were pitch-dark when they set out in Illyrio's elaborately carved palanquin. Two servants went ahead to light their way, carrying ornate oil lanterns with panes of pale blue glass, while a dozen strong men hoisted the poles to their shoulders. It was warm and close inside behind the curtains. 

Daenerys I, Game 3

[LynnS]

46 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

 

One - "a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen". It doesn't even say what it's carved from - most likely wood, but it could be ivory, or jade or amber. But whatever it's made of, the animals are brightly painted and in full form as they're cavorting.

The other - "great wooden beams and the carved animal faces" doesn't mention them being painted brightly (or at all) and they're merely faces, not cavorting animals. And definitely wood.

So I'm not convinced that they're really similar. Not enough to supposedly be a clue that Dany isn't who she thinks. It would be like comparing the beams in a Viking longhall to a Polynesian canoe and claiming they must be from the same culture.

Look at the quote again.  Eddard and Sansa go into the same room and look at the same screen.  Ned describes them as wooden.  Martin calls attention to them twice.  Whether you are convinced or not is irrelevant to me.

[John Suburbs]

I doubt very much that the lemon tree of Dany's recollection is potted. It would have to be rather small to be brought inside during winter, and it would most like whither over the long winter due to lack of sunlight.

So that leaves us with the greenhouse idea, because if lemons can grow outside in Braavos than they would be as common as dirt throughout Westeros south of the Fingers. The problem with the greenhouse, of course, is that for Dany to remember a red door and lemon tree but not realize she is surrounding by glass walls means that the greenhouse would have to be so freakin large that it would qualify as one of the wonders of the world. It would rival the Titan as a unique feature of Braavos and it would be easily seen on whatever hill the Sealord's palace sits on.

Since neither of these things is mentioned in the book, the most likely conclusion is that young Dany was not aware of where she actually was during her early exile.

 

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

Yet she notes there are a few timbered houses. So it’s not all stone, Arya. Of course she’s merely using a figure of speech to emphasise how grey and stony the city is - she’s not trying to argue that there can’t possibly be carved wooden beams anywhere in Braavos, because she’s already noted the timber.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Yet she notes there are a few timbered houses. So it’s not all stone, Arya. Of course she’s merely using a figure of speech to emphasise how grey and stony the city is - she’s not trying to argue that there can’t possibly be carved wooden beams anywhere in Braavos, because she’s already noted the timber.

Ok, and now we put two and two together...

If there are quotes saying Carved Timber Beams don't belong, and there are quotes saying lemon trees don't belong, and there are quotes about the smell being wrong, and there are quotes about the temperature being wrong... so basically every detail given doesn't fit... not individually impossible, but inconsistent.

maybe these inconsistencies are intentional and point towards something!

[LadyBt]

The limon tree and the red door could be in Lys?

It's fertile land with fruits and palms, so it's enought hot for have lemons.

The people are pale with silver-gold hair, purple or blue eyes and they speak somekind of High Valyrian.

That give the possibilite to Dany and his brother to pass unnoticed and to survive in theirs earlier ages when Robert was after them.

And also if Dany is just an impostor created by Varys it could make a lot of sense for her being from Lys, for her speaking Valyrian, her Targaryen's look, even Quaithe in supposition she is Shiera Seastar.