Did Rhaegar taste Dornishman's wife?

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

So I'm going to leave the mance and rhaegar stuff alone and instead provide an alternative interpretation of the song itself. I saw someone earlier say that they saw the song a metaphor for forbidden love and paying the price for it(paraphrasing). I agree this is very likely, especially considering Jon and Ygrittes' romance in Jons subsequent chapters.                                                                                                      Another possible interpretation exists I believe. The tone of the song to me does not at all seem mournful, regretful, or even sad. It seems to me that the dying man is meeting his fate happily, with no regrets, taken in this context, the song could be a metaphor for something worth dying for, such as love, for the dornishmans wife or the North man's daughter. Maybe it's not a girl at all, maybe it's duty. For example in the chapters leading up to his meeting with mance(And the song) Jon witnesses first hand examples of this in The Halfhand and Stonesnake. His brothers met their fate with head held high, content that they are dieing for a cause bigger than themselves.                                                                                                                   Interestingly, either interpretation could be argued as foreshadowing for quite a few endgame scenarios 

Foreshadows Abel's fate. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, Crona said:

Look Lyanna ran away or was abducted was a family issue that he should have discussed with his family first rather than traveling to KL and demanding for Rhaegar to come out and die.

It doesn't matter whether he should or shouldn't have, he did. Him calling out Rhaegar was a reaction caused by Rhaegar, and possibly Lyanna's actions.  

5 hours ago, Crona said:

You realize he just threatened the crown on something Aerys may not have known about. When you threaten the police in real life, you actually do get imprisoned.

You also get a trail. And your father does not get burned alive when he stands up on your behave.  This isn't real life and The Crown is not the police, it's really not an appropriate analogy to be honest.

5 hours ago, Crona said:

Brandon was supposed to be a lord, he should have known better than that,

And Rhaegar was a married Crown Prince who was supposed to be a King. Shouldn't he have known better than to run away with the daughter of the Warden of the North, who was betrothed to the Lord of the Stormlands? It really makes no difference, because in the end he did.

5 hours ago, Crona said:

Lyanna’s actions in those moments did not start a war, 

Rhaegar and possibly Lyanna's action sparked a chain of events that led directly to a war. Whether they should have or not isn't in question. It's what happened and if it didn't the war doesn't start the way it did.

5 hours ago, Crona said:

it could have been handled in different ways then the way he did it.

Sure, it could have, but it wasn't. It led to Brandon riding to King's Landing and threatening Rhaegar. I'm not saying he was in the right or the wrong. It was what he ultimately did because of Lyanna's supposed kidnapping. When Tywin is told Catelyn Stark kidnapped Tyrion he starts attacking Catelyn's homeland, the Riverlands. So we know kidnapping is not generally tolerated by highborn nobles in Westeros

5 hours ago, Crona said:

So, only Brandon himself is to blame 

Possibly. Though he does not have the hindsight we as readers do. You yourself said "we don't know what Brandon was told." He could have been told that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister and brought her to King's Landing to have his way with her.

5 hours ago, Crona said:

for his death and after his death, that’s when the first blood was drawn and war started. 

So are you saying Brandon was to blame for all the deaths after his own? I have to strongly disagree. 

Look, I think your missing my point, I'm not putting blame on anyone. I'm simply stating what events caused others to happen. Had Rhaegar never run away with Lyanna Brandon doesn't go to King's Landing and Aerys doesn't kill him, Rickard Stark and the others when he did. Just because you feel Brandon should have acted differently is irrelevant because in the end he acted the way he did.

[Crona]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It doesn't matter whether he should or shouldn't have, he did. Him calling out Rhaegar was a reaction caused by Rhaegar, and possibly Lyanna's actions.  

You also get a trail. And your father does not get burned alive when he stands up on your behave.  This isn't real life and The Crown is not the police, it's really not an appropriate analogy to be honest.

And Rhaegar was a married Crown Prince who was supposed to be a King. Shouldn't he have known better than to run away with the daughter of the Warden of the North, who was betrothed to the Lord of the Stormlands? It really makes no difference, because in the end he did.

Rhaegar and possibly Lyanna's action sparked a chain of events that led directly to a war. Whether they should have or not isn't in question. It's what happened and if it didn't the war doesn't start the way it did.

Sure, it could have, but it wasn't. It led to Brandon riding to King's Landing and threatening Rhaegar. I'm not saying he was in the right or the wrong. It was what he ultimately did because of Lyanna's supposed kidnapping. When Tywin is told Catelyn Stark kidnapped Tyrion he starts attacking Catelyn's homeland, the Riverlands. So we know kidnapping is not generally tolerated by highborn nobles in Westeros

Possibly. Though he does not have the hindsight we as readers do. You yourself said "we don't know what Brandon was told." He could have been told that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister and brought her to King's Landing to have his way with her.

So are you saying Brandon was to blame for all the deaths after his own? I have to strongly disagree. 

Look, I think your missing my point, I'm not putting blame on anyone. I'm simply stating what events caused others to happen. Had Rhaegar never run away with Lyanna Brandon doesn't go to King's Landing and Aerys doesn't kill him, Rickard Stark and the others when he did. Just because you feel Brandon should have acted differently is irrelevant because in the end he acted the way he did.

Let me ask you, do you think the Arryns, Tullys, Baratheons or even the Starks were preparing to go to war when Lyanna got kidnapped? If it was just Lyanna was kidnapped, would anyone had gone to war? After Lyanna was kidnapped did Rickard attack the crown lands and Dragonstone? 

Or did they go to war because Jon Arryn’s heir died, Stark heir died and lord died, the Tully bethrothal died (event then, Ned had to marry Cat to get their allegiance), and the targs were demanding the head of the future head of House Stark and Baratheon. 

You say they sparked a war, no they did not. Brandon and Aerys reacted poorly and that started the war. Going by your logic, you could say Bran sparked the war by falling, instead of Cat and Tywin reacting poorly to each other

 

Actually if you are not able to make bail, you would go to jail and await trial which can take months to years so you still get imprisonment. The point was that even now you can’t threaten authority such as police and the president, and the targs are the like the presidents in Westeros, it is ridiculous to threaten the royal crown.

 

[purple-eyes]

30 minutes ago, Crona said:

Let me ask you, do you think the Arryns, Tullys, Baratheons or even the Starks were preparing to go to war when Lyanna got kidnapped? If it was just Lyanna was kidnapped, would anyone had gone to war? After Lyanna was kidnapped did Rickard attack the crown lands and Dragonstone? 

Or did they go to war because Jon Arryn’s heir died, Stark heir died and lord died, the Tully bethrothal died (event then, Ned had to marry Cat to get their allegiance), and the targs were demanding the head of the future head of House Stark and Baratheon. 

You say they sparked a war, no they did not. Brandon and Aerys reacted poorly and that started the war. Going by your logic, you could say Bran sparked the war by falling, instead of Cat and Tywin reacting poorly to each other

 

Actually if you are not able to make bail, you would go to jail and await trial which can take months to years so you still get imprisonment. The point was that even now you can’t threaten authority such as police and the president, and the targs are the like the presidents in Westeros, it is ridiculous to threaten the royal crown.

 

there is no doubt that Rhaegar and Lyanna sparked war. They lighted the fire, Brandon poured more fuel, then Aerys added wildfire. Then boom! there is a war. 

 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Crona said:

Let me ask you, do you think the Arryns, Tullys, Baratheons or even the Starks were preparing to go to war when Lyanna got kidnapped? If it was just Lyanna was kidnapped, would anyone had gone to war? After Lyanna was kidnapped did Rickard attack the crown lands and Dragonstone? 

Or did they go to war because Jon Arryn’s heir died, Stark heir died and lord died, the Tully bethrothal died (event then, Ned had to marry Cat to get their allegiance), and the targs were demanding the head of the future head of House Stark and Baratheon. 

You say they sparked a war, no they did not. Brandon and Aerys reacted poorly and that started the war. Going by your logic, you could say Bran sparked the war by falling, instead of Cat and Tywin reacting poorly to each other

That isn't logic... you can't separate a chain of events like that, yes Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance sparked the war... clearly.

Bran didn't fall he was thrown, holy shit that even makes my point.

2 hours ago, Crona said:

Actually if you are not able to make bail, you would go to jail and await trial which can take months to years so you still get imprisonment. The point was that even now you can’t threaten authority such as police and the president, and the targs are the like the presidents in Westeros, it is ridiculous to threaten the royal crown.

 

This is bizarre and irrelevant to how cause and effect works... Brandon might have been a gallant fool, but he didn't charge to the capital screaming bloody murder about nothing.

[The Fattest Leech]

12 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But there really isn’t anything else in the books to even hint at this. Isn’t it enough to have one Dornish parent to make the child “smell Dornish”?

And when people argue “why would Aerys think/say/do that unless OMG bastard escandalo!” I would respectfully submit: MAD KING.

I totally agree to MAD KING. No doubt. But there seems to be something that is triggering his twitchy firestarter fingers, and it seems to be whispers and rumors. I don't doubt Targ madness at all, but I think it manifests itself in different ways, and shrewd players in King's Landing would take advantage of this fact. Daenerys mentions the riddles and such from Quaithe are driving her mad, and that "men are mad, but gods are madder." Quaithe, while not the same type of whispering, is speaking to Daenerys in a way that only she can hear- a different whisper. By the end of ADWD, she has embraced the Targ words of Fire and Blood, as opposed to peace, which influences her decision making.

Generally when children are born we know who the mother is right away. Some woman, I imagine . But even in real life as in this series, the looks of the child are the first thing to "prove" identity of the father (even done subconsciously). A rare book to real life crossover. So Elia's children are Dornish by her, but by name everyone is expecting a Dragon^TM. But if those children are not Dragons^TM and were sired by someone else, then those children would have the smell of the sire, maybe the Dornish father.

15 hours ago, Crona said:

This is an excellent obversation, and honestly Elia’s children being bastards is also just speculations on my part. if it is true then it would matter in the story, in my opinion, it would mean Aegon is still the “acting dragon” but he may be destined for a different fate. I think its interesting that Rhaenys and Aegon had a cold relationship (similar to Elia and Rhaegar) and she may have had bastards, perhaps a parallel? Also, if it was known that the children were illegitimate then it would make sense for Rhaegar to put aside Elia and also having the crown’s permission to find another wife.  Also, during the time that he crowned Lyanna during the tourney of Harrenhall and Elia was present and yet we do not get any insight in what she thought of it and she was pregnant with Aegon at the time. Perhaps, she didn’t say anything because he already suspected that she was unfaithful and didn’t want the rumors to spread.

Honestly, my speculation as well, and I agree with the second bolded about what Elia may have thought about Rhaegar. We only have a few loose dots to connect IF this was true (<--- and that's a big IF). And as I mentioned earlier, I am hesitant to try and make this a firm theory or claim. Juuust speculation

We know that Aerys had lots of whispering in his ear. The text tells us three times that Aerys was pushed to disinherit Rhaegar, but as of yet, we have never seen any legal document that shows he actually went through with it... unless the last quote below adds to this Elia idea... and then if Aerys did skip Rhaegar's children with Elia specifically.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."

• Aerys meant to, nothing in this excerpt says that he actually did.
• And this is all based on rumors, as the line before tells.
• Now, if a maester pops up with a magical document that no one has ever seen or talked about before, well , that will be another 351 threads to figure out of it is real or not.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's.

Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

• Again, this information is based on rumors with no real document presented in the story so far.
• This excerpt tells us that Aerys' men looked for conspiratory proof against Rhaegar, but apparently they never found it.
• Again we see Aerys' men suggest to Aerys that he disinherit Rhaegar. This all points to the issue that Aerys' men were the ones making him "mad", or at least feeding into it, because when you look at the bigger picture, they have something to gain from this.
• Also, the empahsis quotes around the word "disloyal" are from the World book and not my own interpretation.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The End

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

• History tells us over and over what a strained relationship the iron throne has always had with the Dornish.
• Also, "it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar." could maybe possibly give another hint that it maybe could have been Lewyn that dishonored Rhaegar by having an affair with Elia. It is said that Lewyn had a secret paramour (the Dornish word for mistress), and the Dornish don't mind bastards as the other kingdoms do. And and, this line about Lewyn raises a few eyebrows, "My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs."
• George love, love, loves his bizarre love triangles, both in and out of ASOAIF. Love triangles are rife throughout the big players of this story. 

Anyway, I may be pushing theory a little toooo much at this point...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes he did, but strictly metaphorically. Meaning like, he ate the forbidden fruit and fell from grace for it. In Rhaegar's story, the "Dornishman" of the song corresponds to Robert and his infamous wife to Lyanna.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, "it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar." could maybe possibly give another hint that it maybe could have been Lewyn that dishonored Rhaegar by having an affair with Elia. It is said that Lewyn had a secret paramour (the Dornish word for mistress), and the Dornish don't mind bastards as the other kingdoms do. And and, this line about Lewyn raises a few eyebrows, "My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs."

But was not the one thing we knew about Lewyn's paramour that she was still alive at the time of the quote? So in other words, not Elia?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But was not the one thing we knew about Lewyn's paramour that she was still alive at the time of the quote? So in other words, not Elia?

His paramour is still alive. 

Quote

"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say. My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs." (The Soiled Knight, AFFC)

I have a really hard time imagining Elia doing anything. It's not impossible obviously, because nothing is. But still.

[maudisdottir]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But if those children are not Dragons^TM and were sired by someone else, then those children would have the smell of the sire, maybe the Dornish father.

And this is where I can't buy into the theory. "If" those children are not dragons - there's nothing in the books to even vaguely suggest that Elia was unfaithful, and as has been shown in previous generations of Targs, a Dornish mother and a Targ father can produce Dornish-looking children. Why does little Rhaenys also need a Dornish father to "smell Dornish" when she already had a Dornish mother to inherit her smell from?*

*That's not something you type every day.

[Megorova]

@maudisdottir @The Fattest Leech

I think that Elia's children weren't Rhaegar's. Their father was Oberyn. Hints:

Spoiler

1. From Barristan's memory, The Griffin Reborn chapter:

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward."

Maybe meaning of this "Elia was never worthy of him" + "Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well." is that at night of their wedding Elia was already visibly pregnant.

According to 7K's marriage traditions, after wedding the bride is brought to newlyweds bedroom, and undressed by other men, not her husband. Could be that in Elia's case this man was Jon Con. So he saw her body, and realised that she is pregnant. This is why she was unworthy of Rhaegar.

2. After wedding Rhaegar and Elia moved to Dragonstone.

Maybe it was done to conceal her too soon pregnacy. And later she was supposedly bedridden for half a year, to hide from other people her real state, and actual age of her baby. Could be that her daughter was born several months prior her official date of birth.

You can't show to people a 3-5 months old baby, and lie to them that it's a newborn. Though you can show to people a 9-11 months old baby, and present it as a 6 months old very healthy baby.

Either this - on her wedding night Elia was already 3-5 months pregnant, or she was not a maiden, and Rhaegar was mad about this, and said something to Jon Con.

3. Oberyn was mocking men, that were possible candidates to become Elia's fiance. Could be that he did it out of jealousy, because he wanted to keep Elia for himself.

ASOS, 66:

“Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?” Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. “It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock… but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister’s suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn’t look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.”

4. Could be that Oberyn admitted that he was in an incestuous relationship with Elia:

ASOS 38, Tyrion: "“As children Elia and I were inseparable, much like your own brother and sister.”

Gods, I hope not."

By that time there were already rumours all over 7K, that Cersei and Jaime are lovers, and Cersei's children are offsprings born from incest. Nevertheless when speaking with Tyrion, Oberyn said to him, that he and Elia were much like Jaime and Cersei.

5. Rhaegar and Elia became married a year after their engagement. So Oberyn had enough time to impregnate Elia, between her engagement and wedding.

"In early 279 AC, Elia and Rhaegar were betrothed. They married a year later, in 280 AC, in a great ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing.^[5] They moved to Dragonstone shortly after their marriage, where later in 280 AC, Rhaegar and Elia's first child, Rhaenys. When the baby was presented to Rhaegar's parents in King's Landing, Queen Rhaella embraced her granddaughter warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish"."

6. Elia gave birth to Aegon either in 281 or 282. Oberyn met with Elia at least twice, in that span of time.

Spoiler

From Barristan's entry in White book:

"Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight, Blackshield revealing him to be the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen."

Kingswood Brotherhood was disbanded in 281, after Barristan killed their leader Simon Toyne. Could be that Tourney at Storm's End happened also in 281. And Barristan killed Simon after their encounter at that Tourney. But those two events were writen in the Book in the wrong order. And this is how it could have happened:

"Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.^[8] In 281 AC, at the tourney at Harrenhal, Gerold fastened the white cloak of the Kingsguard about the shoulders of the newest member, Ser Jaime Lannister.^[9] "

So first Rhaegar defeated Simon during Tourney at Storm's End. Then Simon and his people targeted Rhaegar's wife Elia. And during that confrontation Ulmer wounded Gerold Hightower. Could be that somehow Barristan drew to himself attention of Brotherhood. So after that encounter they targeter person that was close to Barristan. They assaulted Jeyne Swann. In his childhood, Barristan was squire of Lord Swann. So this is his connection with Jayne. He defeated Brotherhood and killed Simon Toyne.

Could be that while Gerold's hand was healing, he couldn't write. It was his duty as Lord Commander of Kingsguards, to write all entries in White Book. So by the time of Tourney at Harrenhal he was already healed (there he accepted Jaime as new member of Kingsguards), thus after that he wrote in the Book all events of 281.

Though first he wrote about Barristan killing Simon Toyne and defeating Brotherhood, and after that about Barristan's achievements in Tourney at Oldtown. Maybe he just wrote first, what he saw as more important. Then he wrote about Tourney at Storm's End, which also happened in 281.

And near the end of 281 happened Tourney at Harrenhal.

Oberyn was present (and defeated by Rhaegar) during Tourney at Storm's End, in early 281. And he attended Tourney at Harrenhal in late 281, where he danced with Ashara Dayne. So if Elia gave birth to Aegon in 281, then she was impregnated by Oberyn during Tourney at Storm's End. And if she gave birth to Aegon in 282, then she was impregnated by Oberyn during Tourney at Harrenhal. 

7. Oberyn's favourite mistress is Ellaria Sand. Her name is similar to Elia's. And their looks and personality are also similar.

"Elia Martell was said to be beautiful,^[11] slender,^[2] with black eyes, and a flat chest.^[12]"

"though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab."

"According to Barristan Selmy, Elia was a gentle, good, and gracious lady, but he also describes her as frail, due to her delicate health.^[14][15] He also says she was kind and clever, with a sweet wit.^[16]"

"Although not accounted as a beautiful woman, Ellaria is regarded as attractive and eye-catching, with an exotic, sensuous flair.^[1] She has black hair.^[2] She is described as a good woman, strong and brave, with a gentle heart.^[3]"

I think that events (could have) happened in this order:

Spoiler

1. In early 279 Elia and Rhaegar were engaged.

2. Oberyn had sex with Elia, shortly prior her wedding (3-5 months before it), and impregnated her.

3. In 280 Elia and Rhaegar married at King's Landing.

4. During their wedding night Rhaegar and Jon Con found out about Elia's pregnacy. So they had to move to Dragonstone, to hide it from others.

5. Later in 280 Elia gave birth to Rhaenys.

6. For several months after that (3-5), Elia stayed in her chambers. And when 9 months after their wedding passed, Rhaegar told everyone, that Elia gave birth to a daughter, but she's very weak and needs to stay bedridden. 6 months later they went to KL, and presented their supposedly 6 (but actually 9-11) months old baby, to Rhaegar's parents.

7. In early 281 Elia met with Oberyn during Tourney at Storm's End, and they had sex again. And she became pregnant second time.

8. 9 months later she gave birth to Aegon. At that time Rhaegar thought that the baby is his. That's when he said to Elia, that Aegon is the PTWP. And this Dany saw in one of her visions.

9. In late 281, during Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar found out that even second baby is not his. And as revenge to Elia, crowned Lyanna as his Queen of Love and Beauty. He chose her, because he found out that she was Knight of the Laughing Tree.

 

Or maybe Tourney at Storm's End happened in early 280, prior wedding. There Rhaegar defeated Simon Toyne. Brotherhood attacked Elia in 280, when she was traveling to King's Landing, to her wedding with Rhaegar. Then she was already pregnant (from Oberyn), though pregnacy wasn't yet obvious. During their wedding night Rhaegar found out that his wife is not a maiden. Though he forgave her. Some little time later it became obvious that she is pregnant. They didn't knew whether she is a month pregnant, or several months, because she was in sexual relationship with Oberyn for a few months prior her wedding. Thus they had to move to Dragonstone. Could be that Elia gave birth to Rhaenys 8-4 months after the wedding. So for 6 more months they stayed at Dragonstone, for the baby to grow up a bit. Then Elia met with Oberyn again, when she went to KL, to show her daughter to Rhaegar's parents. She became pregnant second time in 281. Both Rhaegar or Oberyn could be father of Aegon. During Tourney at Harrenhal Elia was already pregnant, and gave birth to Aegon in early 282.

Of course this all is just a tin foil theory, though I think it's very weird, that if Aegon wasn't born yet, by the time of Tourney at Harrenhal, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as his Queen, nevertheless after that he had a tender moment with Elia, that Dany saw in her vision. It doesn't make sense. 

So I think that that scene from Dany's vision, happened prior Harrenhal. And Aegon was born in 281, before Tourney. At that point of time Rhaegar was sure that Aegon is the PTWP. Though by the time when Tourney was held, he already found out that the baby isn't his. That's why after the Tourney, he left Elia at Dragonstone, and a year later eloped with Lyanna to Dorne.

[Crona]

@Ralphis Baratheon @LiveFirstDieLater @purple-eyes

I guess I’m wrong about it, but I just find it difficult for me to say that R and L actions was the spark when I don’t know exactly how Brandon received the information and whether the information was manipulated or not

 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Honestly, my speculation as well, and I agree with the second bolded about what Elia may have thought about Rhaegar. We only have a few loose dots to connect IF this was true (<--- and that's a big IF). And as I mentioned earlier, I am hesitant to try and make this a firm theory or claim. Juuust speculation

We know that Aerys had lots of whispering in his ear. The text tells us three times that Aerys was pushed to disinherit Rhaegar, but as of yet, we have never seen any legal document that shows he actually went through with it... unless the last quote below adds to this Elia idea... and then if Aerys did skip Rhaegar's children with Elia specifically.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."

• Aerys meant to, nothing in this excerpt says that he actually did.
• And this is all based on rumors, as the line before tells.
• Now, if a maester pops up with a magical document that no one has ever seen or talked about before, well , that will be another 351 threads to figure out of it is real or not.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's.

Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

• Again, this information is based on rumors with no real document presented in the story so far.
• This excerpt tells us that Aerys' men looked for conspiratory proof against Rhaegar, but apparently they never found it.
• Again we see Aerys' men suggest to Aerys that he disinherit Rhaegar. This all points to the issue that Aerys' men were the ones making him "mad", or at least feeding into it, because when you look at the bigger picture, they have something to gain from this.
• Also, the empahsis quotes around the word "disloyal" are from the World book and not my own interpretation.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The End

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

• History tells us over and over what a strained relationship the iron throne has always had with the Dornish.
• Also, "it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar." could maybe possibly give another hint that it maybe could have been Lewyn that dishonored Rhaegar by having an affair with Elia. It is said that Lewyn had a secret paramour (the Dornish word for mistress), and the Dornish don't mind bastards as the other kingdoms do. And and, this line about Lewyn raises a few eyebrows, "My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs."
• George love, love, loves his bizarre love triangles, both in and out of ASOAIF. Love triangles are rife throughout the big players of this story. 

Anyway, I may be pushing theory a little toooo much at this point...

What I find weird is that Aerys was fine with Rhaegar bethroned to Elia then in 280 when married they had to move to Dragonstone, and she had Rhaenys in 280 also. So by this time, Aerys and Rhaegar  already had a strained relationship right after Rhaegar married Elia. Then in 281, Elia got pregnant with Aegon and Rhaegar met Lyanna, the following year he ran off with Lyanna. That’s is an extremely short amount of time to be married to someone before he ran off. Perhaps, they were fine with Elia during bethrothal then when they got married Aerys heard rumors and tried to tell Rhaegar. After Rhaenys was born, maybe Rhaegar got suspicious and this is why their relationship was complicated.  I believe there is also a quote that says Rhaegar did not like Dragonstone and didn’t go often. However, when Aegon was born, he may have thought he was his son, but may have learned that he wasn’t. I think around the time Aegon was born (early 282) that Ashara left court, it may have been that Ashara was the one who told him the truth.  Again all wild speculation, but very very fun to think about and trying to figure out why was R and E’s relationship so complicated.

Also, do you think Lewyn would be the father of Aegon too then? Cause Aegon had purple eyes, although they do have targ blood so I suppose it could happen.  This could mean too that the Dornish do not believe in chastity that even in a position such as Kingsguard, they do not practice chasity 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

And this is where I can't buy into the theory. "If" those children are not dragons - there's nothing in the books to even vaguely suggest that Elia was unfaithful, and as has been shown in previous generations of Targs, a Dornish mother and a Targ father can produce Dornish-looking children. Why does little Rhaenys also need a Dornish father to "smell Dornish" when she already had a Dornish mother to inherit her smell from?*

*That's not something you type every day.

Well, to start, I did specifically say this is not a theory... just speculation. A list of questions, if you will. In my effort to keep it light, I might have come off as sounding too cheeky.
Yes, I am well aware of the supposed genetic coloring birth order. I even asked GRRM about it in person. I agree that there seems to be a birth order coloring pattern.

As far as Elia being unfaithful or not, I agree and as mentioned already there is not much to go on besides a few dots, but we also have things like Aerys specifically used Elia as a threat against Lewyn, etc., and GRRM has said there is more to learn about recent history. So, just questions because these things make me go "hhmmmmm ", and things to add to the list of what to keep an eye out for in TWOW.

And I am with you on the weirdness of the "smell" and that not being something you type everyday

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But was not the one thing we knew about Lewyn's paramour that she was still alive at the time of the quote? So in other words, not Elia?

Well, snap! I guess the paramour of Lewyn wasn't such a secret beyond just his kingsguard brothers. Daggonit! Now I want to know who she is/was and where is this old lady??? We've been to Dorne and in the presence of Elia's closest living family, related by marriage and otherwise, so where is this paramour???

[The Fattest Leech]

 

1 hour ago, Crona said:

 

 Again all wild speculation, but very very fun to think about and trying to figure out why was R and E’s relationship so complicated.

I agree with this.

1 hour ago, Crona said:

Also, do you think Lewyn would be the father of Aegon too then? Cause Aegon had purple eyes, although they do have targ blood so I suppose it could happen.

Good question.

If I were to guess, and IF there is a child that is not Rhaegar's, I would say baby girl Rhaenys who smelled Dornish. Baby Aegon is said to look more Targaryen, as GRRM clarified in an SSM. I do not think GRRM focuses on multi-generational genetics the way it happens in the real world. He seems to just have simplified it for literary purposes to help tell a story.

1 hour ago, Crona said:

 This could mean too that the Dornish do not believe in chastity that even in a position such as Kingsguard, they do not practice chasity 

Lewyn apparently did not practice this chastity, and his kingsguard brothers knew about it, and they kept the secret. Maybe this is all we readers need to know ... but why???

[Crona]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

If I were to guess, and IF there is a child that is not Rhaegar's, I would say baby girl Rhaenys who smelled Dornish. Baby Aegon is said to look more Targaryen, as GRRM clarified in an SSM. I do not think GRRM focuses on multi-generational genetics the way it happens in the real world. He seems to just have simplified it for literary purposes to help tell a story.

Lewyn apparently did not practice this chastity, and his kingsguard brothers knew about it, and they kept the secret. Maybe this is all we readers need to know ... but why???

That makes sense, I did see that thread you made which is great at looking at the consistency of the targ born children. Never noticed that most of the second children and onward look targ.  Is it only targ children? By these lines, then Lewyn x Elia would only make martell children, and Oberyn would also only make Martell looking children too. I would place my bets on Arthur, although never given a description of him, we can infer that Daynes have similar features to Targs. That would make sense since Rhaenys looks like a Martell and Aegon looks more like a Dayne.  Do the second children have to look like a targ father exactly? Cause Aegon’s eyes are actually lighter than Rhaegar’s. I don’t know what shade of purple were Ashara’s and Edric’s eyes but it could be a hint that these are Arthur’s eyes instead.  

Well, thinking about it, why would GRRM make a member of the kingsguard look similar to Rhaegar and to have him be dornish, which could infer that he did not believe in chastity. I dunno, doesn’t sound like Arthur would do that but on paper it looks like if she was unfaithful, it would be with him. Plus, it would be an interesting foil, as everyone views him as a true knight, when in reality just like every other person, he hid secrets too.

Edit: Well, Ashara has haunting violet eyes (thinking these are dark eyes) and dark hair, and Edric has pale blonde hair and dark blue eyes that appear purple, and Gerold has silver hair with a streak of dark hair, and dark purple eyes...

[AlaskanSandman]

I just wanted to randomly throw out that the Dornishman's wife could be Ashara Dayne, and that the Dornishman could be Lewyn Martell. 

Ashara dances with Oberyn and a white sword. Lewyn is not only a white sword, but said to have had a paramour. 

Further, Lewyn is the only other prince to die at the Trident other than Rhaegar. 

Just fun random thought.

[purple-eyes]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

@maudisdottir @The Fattest Leech

I think that Elia's children weren't Rhaegar's. Their father was Oberyn. Hints:

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1. From Barristan's memory, The Griffin Reborn chapter:

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward."

Maybe meaning of this "Elia was never worthy of him" + "Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well." is that at night of their wedding Elia was already visibly pregnant.

According to 7K's marriage traditions, after wedding the bride is brought to newlyweds bedroom, and undressed by other men, not her husband. Could be that in Elia's case this man was Jon Con. So he saw her body, and realised that she is pregnant. This is why she was unworthy of Rhaegar.

2. After wedding Rhaegar and Elia moved to Dragonstone.

Maybe it was done to conceal her too soon pregnacy. And later she was supposedly bedridden for half a year, to hide from other people her real state, and actual age of her baby. Could be that her daughter was born several months prior her official date of birth.

You can't show to people a 3-5 months old baby, and lie to them that it's a newborn. Though you can show to people a 9-11 months old baby, and present it as a 6 months old very healthy baby.

Either this - on her wedding night Elia was already 3-5 months pregnant, or she was not a maiden, and Rhaegar was mad about this, and said something to Jon Con.

3. Oberyn was mocking men, that were possible candidates to become Elia's fiance. Could be that he did it out of jealousy, because he wanted to keep Elia for himself.

ASOS, 66:

“Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?” Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. “It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock… but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister’s suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn’t look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.”

4. Could be that Oberyn admitted that he was in an incestuous relationship with Elia:

ASOS 38, Tyrion: "“As children Elia and I were inseparable, much like your own brother and sister.”

Gods, I hope not."

By that time there were already rumours all over 7K, that Cersei and Jaime are lovers, and Cersei's children are offsprings born from incest. Nevertheless when speaking with Tyrion, Oberyn said to him, that he and Elia were much like Jaime and Cersei.

5. Rhaegar and Elia became married a year after their engagement. So Oberyn had enough time to impregnate Elia, between her engagement and wedding.

"In early 279 AC, Elia and Rhaegar were betrothed. They married a year later, in 280 AC, in a great ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing.^[5] They moved to Dragonstone shortly after their marriage, where later in 280 AC, Rhaegar and Elia's first child, Rhaenys. When the baby was presented to Rhaegar's parents in King's Landing, Queen Rhaella embraced her granddaughter warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish"."

6. Elia gave birth to Aegon either in 281 or 282. Oberyn met with Elia at least twice, in that span of time.

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From Barristan's entry in White book:

"Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight, Blackshield revealing him to be the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen."

Kingswood Brotherhood was disbanded in 281, after Barristan killed their leader Simon Toyne. Could be that Tourney at Storm's End happened also in 281. And Barristan killed Simon after their encounter at that Tourney. But those two events were writen in the Book in the wrong order. And this is how it could have happened:

"Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.^[8] In 281 AC, at the tourney at Harrenhal, Gerold fastened the white cloak of the Kingsguard about the shoulders of the newest member, Ser Jaime Lannister.^[9] "

So first Rhaegar defeated Simon during Tourney at Storm's End. Then Simon and his people targeted Rhaegar's wife Elia. And during that confrontation Ulmer wounded Gerold Hightower. Could be that somehow Barristan drew to himself attention of Brotherhood. So after that encounter they targeter person that was close to Barristan. They assaulted Jeyne Swann. In his childhood, Barristan was squire of Lord Swann. So this is his connection with Jayne. He defeated Brotherhood and killed Simon Toyne.

Could be that while Gerold's hand was healing, he couldn't write. It was his duty as Lord Commander of Kingsguards, to write all entries in White Book. So by the time of Tourney at Harrenhal he was already healed (there he accepted Jaime as new member of Kingsguards), thus after that he wrote in the Book all events of 281.

Though first he wrote about Barristan killing Simon Toyne and defeating Brotherhood, and after that about Barristan's achievements in Tourney at Oldtown. Maybe he just wrote first, what he saw as more important. Then he wrote about Tourney at Storm's End, which also happened in 281.

And near the end of 281 happened Tourney at Harrenhal.

Oberyn was present (and defeated by Rhaegar) during Tourney at Storm's End, in early 281. And he attended Tourney at Harrenhal in late 281, where he danced with Ashara Dayne. So if Elia gave birth to Aegon in 281, then she was impregnated by Oberyn during Tourney at Storm's End. And if she gave birth to Aegon in 282, then she was impregnated by Oberyn during Tourney at Harrenhal. 

7. Oberyn's favourite mistress is Ellaria Sand. Her name is similar to Elia's. And their looks and personality are also similar.

"Elia Martell was said to be beautiful,^[11] slender,^[2] with black eyes, and a flat chest.^[12]"

"though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab."

"According to Barristan Selmy, Elia was a gentle, good, and gracious lady, but he also describes her as frail, due to her delicate health.^[14][15] He also says she was kind and clever, with a sweet wit.^[16]"

"Although not accounted as a beautiful woman, Ellaria is regarded as attractive and eye-catching, with an exotic, sensuous flair.^[1] She has black hair.^[2] She is described as a good woman, strong and brave, with a gentle heart.^[3]"

I think that events (could have) happened in this order:

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1. In early 279 Elia and Rhaegar were engaged.

2. Oberyn had sex with Elia, shortly prior her wedding (3-5 months before it), and impregnated her.

3. In 280 Elia and Rhaegar married at King's Landing.

4. During their wedding night Rhaegar and Jon Con found out about Elia's pregnacy. So they had to move to Dragonstone, to hide it from others.

5. Later in 280 Elia gave birth to Rhaenys.

6. For several months after that (3-5), Elia stayed in her chambers. And when 9 months after their wedding passed, Rhaegar told everyone, that Elia gave birth to a daughter, but she's very weak and needs to stay bedridden. 6 months later they went to KL, and presented their supposedly 6 (but actually 9-11) months old baby, to Rhaegar's parents.

7. In early 281 Elia met with Oberyn during Tourney at Storm's End, and they had sex again. And she became pregnant second time.

8. 9 months later she gave birth to Aegon. At that time Rhaegar thought that the baby is his. That's when he said to Elia, that Aegon is the PTWP. And this Dany saw in one of her visions.

9. In late 281, during Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar found out that even second baby is not his. And as revenge to Elia, crowned Lyanna as his Queen of Love and Beauty. He chose her, because he found out that she was Knight of the Laughing Tree.

 

Or maybe Tourney at Storm's End happened in early 280, prior wedding. There Rhaegar defeated Simon Toyne. Brotherhood attacked Elia in 280, when she was traveling to King's Landing, to her wedding with Rhaegar. Then she was already pregnant (from Oberyn), though pregnacy wasn't yet obvious. During their wedding night Rhaegar found out that his wife is not a maiden. Though he forgave her. Some little time later it became obvious that she is pregnant. They didn't knew whether she is a month pregnant, or several months, because she was in sexual relationship with Oberyn for a few months prior her wedding. Thus they had to move to Dragonstone. Could be that Elia gave birth to Rhaenys 8-4 months after the wedding. So for 6 more months they stayed at Dragonstone, for the baby to grow up a bit. Then Elia met with Oberyn again, when she went to KL, to show her daughter to Rhaegar's parents. She became pregnant second time in 281. Both Rhaegar or Oberyn could be father of Aegon. During Tourney at Harrenhal Elia was already pregnant, and gave birth to Aegon in early 282.

Of course this all is just a tin foil theory, though I think it's very weird, that if Aegon wasn't born yet, by the time of Tourney at Harrenhal, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as his Queen, nevertheless after that he had a tender moment with Elia, that Dany saw in her vision. It doesn't make sense. 

So I think that that scene from Dany's vision, happened prior Harrenhal. And Aegon was born in 281, before Tourney. At that point of time Rhaegar was sure that Aegon is the PTWP. Though by the time when Tourney was held, he already found out that the baby isn't his. That's why after the Tourney, he left Elia at Dragonstone, and a year later eloped with Lyanna to Dorne.

Not all the close brothers and sisters are into incest. If you feel like you can say Oberyn and Elia are lovers based on what we have in the books, then we can also say Jon Snow is son of Lyanna and Brandon Stark. Otherwise why Brandon was so mad over Rhaegar having his way with his sister? This can not even be called tinfoil. This is just totally baseless.

 

 

[maudisdottir]

I don't know why everyone is so stuck on the Dornishman's wife also being Dornish. The song doesn't say that - it was her husband who was Dornish, she could have been from anywhere.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, snap! I guess the paramour of Lewyn wasn't such a secret beyond just his kingsguard brothers. Daggonit! Now I want to know who she is/was and where is this old lady??? We've been to Dorne and in the presence of Elia's closest living family, related by marriage and otherwise, so where is this paramour???

I present no evidence, but wouldn't it be fun if it was Olenna Tyrell... 

There is entirely too much tut-tutting in this realm, if you ask me.

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, Crona said:

Never noticed that most of the second children and onward look targ.

@The Fattest Leech

Their looks has nothing to do with them being second children, or first, or whatever.

They looked non-Targaryen/Targaryen because of their ancestors.

For example children of Mariah Martell and Daeron II Targaryen.

Daeron II Targaryen - hair color and eye color are uncknown. Mariah Martell - heir color black, eye color is uncknown.

Prince Baelor had the dark hair of his mother, eye color is uncknown.

Aerys was spindly and stooped, with long, straight hair. He had a long, thin face, a long, thin mustache and a long pointed beard. Hair color and eye color are uncknown.

Rhaegel's hair color and eye color are uncknown.

Maekar was powerfully built and wore a beard. His eyes were violet, and his hair was such a pale blond that it was almost white.

Out of 4 children we know hair color of two of them, and eye color of only one.

This article explains coloring in genetics - http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask432

Excerpt from that article:

Spoiler

"Dominant and Recessive.

Let's say that a child has a mom with brown eyes and dad with blue eyes. Since brown eyes are dominant, the mom can have either one brown (B) and one blue (b) version of an eye color gene or she can have two browns. As geneticists like to say, she can be either Bb or BB.

To make things easier, we will say that she is BB (both genes are the brown version). Since the dad has blue eyes, he has two copies of the recessive blue version. He is bb.

Each parent will pass one copy of their eye color gene to their child. In this case, the mom will always pass B and the dad will always pass b. This means all of their kids will be Bb and have brown eyes. Each child will show the mom's dominant trait.

Now if we flip things around where the father has two brown versions (BB) and the mom has two blue ones (bb), the child will still end up Bb and having brown eyes. It doesn't matter if B came from mom or dad. It only mattered that the child got a B.

I don't want you to think that if one parent shows the dominant trait, all their children will too. They may not. Let me give another eye color example to show you what I mean.

Imagine a mom with one version of the brown and one version of the blue eye color gene. She is Bb and has brown eyes. Dad is bb and has blue eyes.

These are the same eye colors that the parents had in the first example. But the result could turn out very differently.

The kids each have a 50% chance of having mom's brown eyes and a 50% chance of having dad's blue eyes. (This is because mom has a 50% chance of passing her B and a 50% chance of passing her b.) So in this case, the kids can end up with mom's dominant trait or dad's recessive one. Which one is a simple matter of chance.*

And if we take a Bb dad (brown eyes) and a bb mother (blue eyes), there is still a 50% chance for the child to have blue eyes. Again it didn't matter which parent gave which gene version. What was important is that these two gene versions were involved.

This is true for many, many traits besides eye color. But not all of them. Sometimes it matters whether your mom or dad has a dominant trait."

Mariah Martell's grandparents were Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare.

Spoiler

"In 110 AC Prince Qoren Martell gave his support to the Triarchy in the war against Prince Daemon Targaryen and Lord Corlys Velaryon in the Stepstones.^[12][13] Daemon's brother, King Viserys I Targaryen, spoke of wedding his daughter Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne as a way of finally uniting the Seven Kingdoms, though ultimately this did not occur.^[13] During the Dance of the Dragons, Prince Qoren was contacted by Hand of the King Otto Hightower, but refused the alliance, claiming he'd "sooner sleep with scorpions".^[14]

"The daughter of Prince Qoren Martell, Aliandra came young into her seat."

"King Daeron I Targaryen conquered Dorne in 158 AC when the Prince of Dorne bent the knee at the Submission of Sunspear. Rebellion continued until Daeron's death in 161 AC,^[15] after which his brother, King Baelor I, travelled to Sunspear and agreed to a peace with House Martell. This included a betrothal between Mariah Martell and Prince Daeron Targaryen.^[16] Mariah's brother Maron was Daeron's most important supporter,^[17] and upon Daeron's ascension, agreed to join Dorne under Targaryen rule. This became official in 187 AC, when Maron married Daeron's sister Daenerys.^[18][19]"

King Daeron I Targaryen (143-161) conquered Dorne in 158 AC when the Prince of Dorne bent the knee at the Submission of Sunspear. We know that prior that Prince of Dorne was Qoren Martell.

After him ruler of Dorne was his daughter Aliandra. She was married with Drazenko Rogare. He died between 129 and 134.

Daeron II Targaryen (153-209) married with Mariah Martell after 161. Their first child Baelor was born in 170, when Daeron was 17 years old. So based on this, looks like he and Mariah married when he turned 16.

Based on dates that we know, it looks like the Prince of Dorne, that has bend the knee to Daeron I in 158, was son of Aliandra, and father of Mariah and Maron Martell (married with Daenerys Targaryen in 187).

Drazenko Rogare was a pure Valyrian. Thus his granddaughter Mariah was carrier of Valyrian genes.

Mariah was carrier of Bb genes (where B is dark color for hair and eyes, and b is light color for hair and eyes). She was carrier of both genes of light and dark color, but dark color is dominant. So if a person has B and b genes, he/she will have dark coloring. But her/his children can get from this parent either B or b genes.

Her husband Daeron II was carrier of bb genes.

Spoiler

His parents were Aegon IV and Naerys Targaryen.

His grandparents were Viserys II Targaryen and Larra Rogare.

Parents of Viseys II were Rhaenyra and Daemon Targaryens. And Rogares are the purest Valyrians.

Rhaenyra's parents were Viserys I Targaryen and Aemma Arryn.

Aemma was daughter of Lord Rodrik Arryn and his wife, Princess Daella Targaryen, herself the daughter of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen and his sister-wife Alysanne Targaryen.

Alysanne and Jaehaerys were children of Aenys I Targaryen and Alyssa Velaryon.

Aenys I was son of Rhaenys and Aegon I Targaryen.

Alyssa Velaryon was a Valyrian, with silvery hair and purple eyes.

Out of 8 generations of Daeron II ancestors, only one person out of them were not a Valyrian - his great great great grandfather Rodrik Arryn. Though even if he was a carrier of dark color B genes, he didn't passed them to his daughter Aemma. Or even if he did, in next generation they weren't transferred, because Aemma's daughter Rhaenyra had purely Valyrian looks. "Rhaenyra had her family's Valyrian looks, wearing her silver-gold hair in a long braid in the manner of Aegon I's warrior wife, Visenya"

So it's absolutely definite that Daeron II was pure 100% bb - carrier of pure Valyrian genes, light hair color, and light (blue/indigo/purple/violet) eye color.

Mariah passed her B genes to her son Baelor. While to her other son Maekar she passed her b genes.

Mariah 1B2b + Daeron 3b4b = 1B3b (Baelor) or 2b4b (Maekar).

In combination of genes from pool of Mariah and Daeron, 75% were light colored genes b, and 25% were dark colored B genes. But the possibility for every one of their children to be dark haired or light haired was 50/50. It doesn't mean that if they will have 4 children, then 2 of them will be dark colored Bb, and 2 will be light colored bb. All of their children could be Bb, or all of them can be bb, or one can be Bb while other will be bb, or on the contrary - one bb and 3 Bb. Even if they will have 10 children, out of them all 10 could be light haired and blue-eyed, or all 10 could have dark hair and dark eyes. Each of their children has a 50/50 chances of being either dark Bb, or light bb.

 

So your theory about looks of second children is wrong.

I also went thru family tree of other ASOIAF characters, from your thread. And out of those, whose ancestors are known, their looks was inherited based on the same model of B and b. Either they were light colored because they were carrier of purely light Valyrian genes b, or they were carrier of light b genes from their Targaryen/Valyrian ancestor, and dark B genes of their non-Targaryen ancestor, and having combination of genes Bb, they were dark colored.

And Gerold Dayne is a mutant, with his dark purple eyes, and silver hair, divided by a streak of midnight black <- two-colored hair is a mutation, same as two-colored eyes of Tyrion (one black, one green), Euron (one blue, one black) and Shiera Seastar (one eye blue, one green), and albinism of Lord Bloodraven (white hair and red eyes).