Did Rhaegar taste Dornishman's wife?

[maudisdottir]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Laenor Velaryon wasn't father of those children. Their father was either Criston Cole or Harwin Strong, or maybe someone else. Seems that Rhaenyra was quite a frivolous girl.

 

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Rhaenyra's children doesn't fit into this theory - her three first children didn't looked like Targaryens:

Huh? You argue against me in one post and then in the very next you’re supporting my argument. I wasn’t even responding to you in the first place.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaenyra Targaryen, daughter of Viserys I Targaryen and Aemma Arryn.

Rhaenyra's children doesn't fit into this theory - her three first children didn't looked like Targaryens:

Exactly.

Quote

~snipped for length~

You keep mentioning a lot of other families and lineages for some reason. Why are you bringing up Selyse??? Why are you bringing up Shireen??? Selyse does not have a secret baby to hide... but the current/recent Targaryens do. The current Lannisters do. For literary purposes. The Dondarrions don't mean squat when it comes to hiding a certain baby in plain sight. Small characters like Selyse are pretty much set up as disposable. The theory is about Targaryen birth order and how it is linked to looks and personality. Again, you are over complicating this.  This is something I talked about for a long while with the author, and he confirmed the two who don't fit are indeed the ones with identity issues and started the Dance, which was essentially the breakdown of that part of the family. You can keep cut and pasting from the wiki all you want, but the wiki is not the story. The story is what matters to an author. That is where you will find the issues with mixed up looks and personality that lead to thing like the Dance of Dragons. 

And you bringing up Gendry being black haired shows my point. There is NO WAY in real life that every Baratheon will be born with black hair. However, for the story it is necessary because it helps the characters in-world figure things out. My niece has blonde, blonde hair and blue eyes, and she was born to two sets of hazel/brown eyes and tawny/brown hair parents. And before the jokes start, no cheating occurred because she looks juuust like my brother... only colored differently . So even the real world example is not set.

I addressed Valarr. He is only a slight, sliver Targaryen, like his hair, and he is having an identity struggle- a common theme among most of the mains in the series from Arya to Theon to Dany to Jon to Sansa, etc. I addressed Rhaenys and Rhaenyra and all of the others you bring up... including the three boys that I already said are most likely Strong's kids. Did you not read this in the other thread? Jace (Jaecerys) is the first born and it is the first born who does NOT look like the traditional Targ looks. Same with his brothers. The subsequent children change. So, all follows. This helps "hide" children in the current story, the only one that matters. (This was elaborated on in another thread with great detail. When I find it, I will link it here.)

ADDING: This Valarr Dornish dark hair with a streak of silver and struggling with his identity could possibly be a hint of what is to come with our current hidden baby, know what I mean

This all falls back to the fact that GRRM is not pulling out the ruler and stopwatch to figure out the exact, real world DNA code for these imaginary people that goes back 300 years. He is telling his story, and the story comes first:

• She is female.

  This is the Middle Ages. They don't know about DNA. Their knowledge of genetics revolves around theories about a person's "blood."

  If I start worrying about Brienne's chromosomes, the next step is trying to figure out the aerodynamic properties of dragons, and then the whole thing falls apart.

• I will now tell the story of what GRRM said when asked about the Stark children and their ability as wargs. He was asked if the trait of being a warg ran in the Stark family.

  "I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy, not scifi" He replied.

• He acutally only said what I recorded above, he did not want to discuss genetics, but the children had it.

• My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story.

Again, this is waaaay off topic for this thread. If you would like to discuss aliens and blood and guts and black stuff somewhere else, I will be happy to join you there

[Megorova]

14 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Huh? You argue against me in one post and then in the very next you’re supporting my argument. I wasn’t even responding to you in the first place.

In those two posts I quoted first you, and then The Fattest Leech.

Was I arguing? Where?

I wrote to you that three first sons of Rhaenyra didn't looked like Targaryens. That's because their father was not a Valyrian, and thus they inherited his non-Valyrian looks.

From his Targaryen mother Jace (firstborn son of Rhaenyra) got his b gene, and from his non-Valyrian father he got B gene. His gene model was Bb, B is dominant, b is recessive, thus he had dark hair of his father.

Rhaenyra was bb, her lover was either BB, or Bb. Rhaenyra 1b2b, her lover either 3B4B or 3B5b.

1b2b + 3B4B = 1b3B, 1b4B, 2b3B, 2b4B.

1b2b + 3B5b = 1b3B, (1b5b), 2b3B, (2b5b). Jace was dark haired, thus he couldn't be 1b5b or 2b5b.

Jace's gene model was one of this four - 1b3B, 1b4B, 2b3B, 2b4B, he got one b gene from his mother, and one B gene from his father. 1. This (his looks) fits into genetic inheritance concept of real world.

Then to The Fattest Leech I wrote, that her theory "First born to Targ get mom looks", is wrong. Because Rhaenyra's son Jace, who was first born to Targ, nevertheless didn't had looks of his mother. Instead he looked like his non-Targaryen father. And Jena Dondarrion's son Valarr, first born child of Baelor Targaryen/first born to Targ, didn't get his mom's non-Targaryen looks. Instead he looked like his Targaryen father. 2. This also fits into genetic inheritance concept of real world. And proves that The Fattest Leech's theory "First born child of Targaryen, gets his/her mom's looks" is wrong.

1. = 2. So there's no contradictions, in what I wrote to you, and what I wrote to The Fattest Leech.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaenyra was bb, her lover was either BB, or Bb. Rhaenyra 1b2b, her lover either 3B4B or 3B5b.

1b2b + 3B4B = 1b3B, 1b4B, 2b3B, 2b4B.

1b2b + 3B5b = 1b3B, (1b5b), 2b3B, (2b5b). Jace was dark haired, thus he couldn't be 1b5b or 2b5b.

Jace's gene model was one of this four - 1b3B, 1b4B, 2b3B, 2b4B, he got one b gene from his mother, and one B gene from his father. 1. This (his looks) fits into genetic inheritance concept of real world.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. Really I am not . I am simply answering the questions you propose, while providing extra information that explains how the author feels about the in-world genetics, his take on them, and what he told me. That's all. But if you prefer to think that the author has the knowledge, time, interest, and desire to chart out every DNA code for the last 300ish years across hunnerds and hunnerds of minor characters, I am not going to stop you.

There has only been one other poster (so far) that hated, hated, hated this theory and that was because it debunked a personal plot wish of theirs. So I guess I am thinking this may possibly be the same or similar situation with you? My pardons if not.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Then to The Fattest Leech I wrote, that her theory "First born to Targ get mom looks", is wrong. Because Rhaenyra's son Jace, who was first born to Targ, nevertheless didn't had looks of his mother. Instead he looked like his non-Targaryen father.

For Jace, that is the point. The first born takes after the non-Targ parent. That is the theory. This is a very important detail that has to do with the current storyline more so than the past (even though it happens).

And again, Rhaenyra is an author admitted exception. She, a female, wore her father's crown, something only she has ever done. There is a double meaning to this which includes identity issues and the Dance.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Jena Dondarrion's son Valarr, first born child of Baelor Targaryen/first born to Targ, didn't get his mom's non-Targaryen looks. Instead he looked like his Targaryen father. 2. This also fits into genetic inheritance concept of real world. And proves that The Fattest Leech's theory "First born child of Targaryen, gets his/her mom's looks" is wrong.

If you read the history of the Dondarrion's as pointed out in The Hedge Knight, you will see how the "flash of light from above" lightning saved the first Dondarrion, which lead to the beginning of that house. There is a literary purpose to all of this. This is also the same story that we see Valarr on page. There is a literary reason why these two events/info happen in the same short story. Valarr's Targ father looked like his Dornish mother (dark eyes and hair features), and he took a lot of shit for looking Dornish, as opposed to Targaryen. Valarr's mother was the Dondarrion side, and he takes more after her with the slighter build, brown hair (not Dornish dark), and the blue eyes (not his father's Dornish dark). There is a connection to the Dondarrion history, Valarr's streak of silver "saving" him, and death pays for life, etc, etc.

Each person who has some sort of identity issue is like a walking personal sigil of themself. Even the Targs who had these issues always did something like reverse the sigils colors on house banners, or quarter their Targ sigil with something else (when theoretically the Targ sigil alone should have been the strongest). Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is my favorite example. He was given the chance to become legitimate, but instead he chose his own identity and gave himself his own sigil... and it matches his looks

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You keep mentioning a lot of other families and lineages for some reason. Why are you bringing up Selyse??? Why are you bringing up Shireen??? Selyse does not have a secret baby to hide... but the current/recent Targaryens do. The current Lannisters do. For literary purposes. The Dondarrions don't mean squat when it comes to hiding a certain baby in plain sight. Small characters like Selyse are pretty much set up as disposable. The theory is about Targaryen birth order and how it is linked to looks and personality.

Rhaelle Targaryen married with Ormund Baratheon. According to your theory, her firstborn (and only) child Steffon, was supposed to inherit looks of his mother, thus he was supposed to look like a Targaryen. But he didn't had Targaryen looks. Child of Targaryen parent is a Targaryen, and doesn't matter whether he/she has a Targaryen surname, or not.

Or your theory applyes only to those Targaryen offsprings, whose surname is Targaryen? Because that is plain ridiculous.

If looks of Targaryen descendants were inherited according to your theory, then not only Steffon was supposed to have a non-Baratheon looks, but also his firstborn son Robert (who is also a descendant of Targaryens) was supposed to look like his Estermont mother Cassana, but he had a brand Baratheon looks.

Or your theory applyes only to first generation of Targaryen offsprings, and only those that also have a Targaryen surname?

Is this theory about Targaryen birth order, applyes only to those Targaryens, that are staying in Targaryen family, while those Targaryens, that marry off to another family, and take new family name, are authomatically crossed out of list of those, whose firstborn child from Targaryen parent, was supposed to inherit his/her mom's looks, but now that his/her parent is out of Targaryen family tree, he/she won't get his/her mom's looks?

Utterly ridiculous.

 

Also there was no need to hide a baby. There was no need for a mambo jambo theories about first babies, mom looks, and so on.

Seems that GRRM himself isn't entirely aware of the fact, that all of his characters are having looks that they naturally inherited from their parents, which happend according to genetic laws of real world. Prove:

Lyanna Stark had dark hair and dark grey eyes. Rhaegar Targaryen had light hair and violet/blue eyes. Lyanna 1B2B or 1B3b, Rhaegar 4b5b.

1B2B + 4b5b = 1B4b - dark looks, 1B5b - dark looks, 2B1B - dark looks, 2B5b - dark looks.

1B2b + 4b5b = 1B4b - dark looks, 1B5b - dark looks, 2b4b - light coloring, 2b5b - light coloring.

Thus if Lyanna had BB gene model, then there was 100% chances for Jon to be born with dark looks. If Lyanna had Bb gene model, then chances for Jon to be born with either dark looks or light coloring were equal, 50/50.

But Lyanna didn't had a b gene.

Her three brothers were dark haired. Both of her parents were dark haired. And all her relatives and ancestors for generations higher in Starks' family tree had dark coloring. Her great great grandparents from her father's side were also her great grandparents from her mothers side - Beron Stark (North) and Lorra Royce (The Vale. Family traits of Royces - grey eyes). Her great grandparents from father's side - Willam Stark (North) and Melantha Blackwood (Riverlands. Blackwood's family traits - dark hair and eyes). Her grandparents from father's side - Edwyle Stark (North) and Marna Locke (North). Her grandparents from mother's side - Rodrick Stark (North) and Arya Flint (northern mountain clan). Her parents were Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark, cousins once removed. Is there any BLOND characters from The North? There's NONE. And those of Lyanna's ancestors that were not from The North, only added to Starks family more dark coloring to their genetic traits (Royce - grey eyes, Blackwood - dark hair and eyes).

Thus Lyanna was definitely a carrier of BB genes. So it doesn't matter how did the baby's father looked like. Lyanna's children could be only dark haired and grey-eyed like her. The only option, how Lyanna's baby can get a looks different from hers, is that if the baby's father will be a black man from Summer Isles, who will have even darker coloring than Lyanna, and thus his genes will be dominant, and her genes will be recessive to his more dark genes, and the baby will be born with black skin, black hair and black eyes. 

So all GRRM had to do, to hide a secret Targaryen baby, is to chose for its mother a woman, with darker coloring than Rhaegar's. That's all. No need to created some convoluted theories about firstborn children, that for some totally idiotic reason, in the world of Planetos applyes solely to Targaryens, and not all Targaryens, but only some Targaryens, and only under some specific conditions

No need to discuss this further. You won't change your opinion. I won't change mine.

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I addressed Rhaenys and Rhaenyra and all of the others you bring up... including the three boys that I already said are most likely Strong's kids. Did you not read this in the other thread? Jace (Jaecerys) is the first born and it is the first born who does NOT look like the traditional Targ looks. Same with his brothers. The subsequent children change.

Daeron II Targaryen married with Mariah Martell. Their first son Baelor looked like a Martell, but others had Valyrian looks. According to your theory King Maekar was supposed to look non-Targaryen, but he looked "His eyes were violet, and his hair was such a pale blond that it was almost white."

Rhaenyra's three sons didn't looked like Targaryens. Not only first, but also second and third children.

Rhaegar's firstborn child Rhaenys looked like her non-Targaryen mother. But second child supposedly had Targaryen looks (GRRM said that Aegon looked more like a Targaryen, while Rhaenys looked more like a Martell <- that's all what is known about looks of real Aegon Targaryen. And also that he had "fair hair" <- this is from scene when Tywin showed dead bodies to other lords).  

So what is it according to your theory - firstborn child of Targaryen gets mom's looks, or is it not mom's looks but non-Targaryen looks, and then what? 

a. other children looks like Targaryens,

b. or they look like not Targaryens?

Which is it? a. or b.? Because in ASOIAF both of those things happened - a. AND b.

a. - Maekar and Aegon. b. - Rhaenyra's children.

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There has only been one other poster (so far) that hated, hated, hated this theory and that was because it debunked a personal plot wish of theirs. So I guess I am thinking this may possibly be the same or similar situation with you? My pardons if not.

I don't hate this theory, I just think that it's inconsistent, and parts of it are contradicting to each other.

For example this:

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quote

Because Rhaenyra's son Jace, who was first born to Targ, nevertheless didn't had looks of his mother. Instead he looked like his non-Targaryen father.

For Jace, that is the point. The first born takes after the non-Targ parent. That is the theory.

 

According to your theory Valarr Targaryen was supposed to look like his non-Targaryen mother Jena Dondarrion, but he looked like his father Baelor.

(It doesn't matter whether Baelor himself had Valyrian looks or not, what does matters is that he is a Targaryen. Thus Valarr, as a firstborn child of a Targaryen parent and non-Targaryen parent, was supposed to look like his non-Targaryen parent. And in that pair - Baelor Targaryen and Jena Dondarrion, non-Targaryen parent was Jena. But Valarr looked like his father. Description from the book below.)

Also Dondarrions' family trait is red-gold hair: Manfred Dondarrion from Hedge Knight, and Berric Dondarrion.

"Ser Manfred was a thin man with a sour look on his face. He wore a black surcoat slashed with the purple lightning of House Dondarrion, but Dunk would have remembered him anyway by his unruly mane of red-gold hair."

"A scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundred battles. A thicket of red-gold hair hid most of his face, save for a bald spot above his left ear where his head had been smashed in."

According to your theory Valarr was supposed to have red-gold hair of Dondarrions, but he got brown hair of his father Baelor Targaryen.

And in a pair Maekar Targaryen + Dyanna Dayne, their first child Daeron looked like non-Targaryen, and second son Aerion, and third son Aemon, and fourth son Aegon had Targaryen looks. Weren't they supposed to also look non-Targaryen, like three sons of Rhaenyra? You said: "the first born who does NOT look like the traditional Targ looks. Same with his brothers. The subsequent children change." You can argue, that could be that their looks, their blond hair, they also got from their mother Dyanna Dayne (because there were blond and blue-eyed Daynes, for example Arthur Dayne), but then from whom did Daeron got his brown hair, if his father's hair was silver-gold? <- Do you see the problem here? THIS goes against your theory.

~~~~~~~~~~~

"Hedge Knight":

Baelor:

"Even seated, he looked to be a head taller than the other, to judge from the long straight legs stretched out before him. His short-cropped hair was dark and peppered with grey, his strong jaw clean-shaven. His nose looked as though it had been broken more than once. Though he was dressed very plainly, in green doublet, brown mantle, and scuffed boots, there was a weight to him, a sense of power and certainty."

"He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg. “It’s said he favors his mother,” the boy reminded him. “She was a Dornish princess.”"

Valarr:

"He had dark hair like his father, but a bright streak ran through it."

"Valarr, the Young Prince, stood vigil at the foot of the bier while his father lay in state. He was a shorter, slimmer, handsomer version of his sire, without the twice-broken nose that had made Baelor seem more human than royal. Valarr’s hair was brown, but a bright streak of silver-gold ran through it."

"When he stopped to offer awkward sympathies, well larded with thanks, Prince Valarr blinked cool blue eyes at him and said, “My father was only nine-and-thirty. He had it in him to be a great king, the greatest since Aegon the Dragon. Why would the gods take him, and leave you?”"

Maekar:

"His straight hair and square-cut beard were so fair they seemed white in the dimness of the hall, but as he got closer he saw that they were in truth a pale silvery color touched with gold."

"Thickly built and powerful, the prince—he was surely a prince— wore a leather brigandine covered with silver studs beneath a heavy black cloak trimmed with ermine. Pox scars marked his cheeks, only partly concealed by his silvery beard."

Daeron:

"His face had a sallow, unhealthy cast to it beneath a rat’s nest of sandy brown hair, and blond stubble crusted his chin."

"“Daeron has common hair, sort of a pale brown, nothing special, but mine is like Aerion’s and my father’s.”"

Aerion:

"Curls of silver-gold hair framed a face sculpted and imperious; high brow and sharp cheekbones, straight nose, pale smooth skin without blemish. His eyes were a deep violet color."

[The Fattest Leech]

 

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

Or your theory applyes only to those Targaryen offsprings, whose surname is Targaryen? Because that is plain ridiculous.

That would be ridiculous, which is why I never said that, nor did I ever infer that idea.

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If looks of Targaryen descendants were inherited according to your theory, then not only Steffon was supposed to have a non-Baratheon looks, but also his firstborn son Robert (who is also a descendant of Targaryens) was supposed to look like his Estermont mother Cassana, but he had a brand Baratheon looks.

Steffon does have the brand Baratheon looks- no Targ looks. He is the first born who takes after the non-Targ parent. His son, Robert I, also has the brand Baratheon looks, because the Baratheons are far more important to the story than the Estermonts are. We need this Baratheon brand to be important to the current story. This is how Stannis, Jon Arryn, and Eddard were able to parse out Cersei's children not being Robert's.

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Daeron II Targaryen married with Mariah Martell. Their first son Baelor looked like a Martell, but others had Valyrian looks. According to your theory King Maekar was supposed to look non-Targaryen, but he looked "His eyes were violet, and his hair was such a pale blond that it was almost white."

Maekar wasn't the first born. He was the subsequent child that I addressed. Baelor was the first born, and he is the one who looks Dornish.

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I wrote to you that three first sons of Rhaenyra didn't looked like Targaryens. That's because their father was not a Valyrian, and thus they inherited his non-Valyrian looks.

Yes I've read your scientific breakdown quite a few times. Please stop trying to educate me about genetics in a fantasy series, when I wasn't even talking about that.

I initially asked you why Jocelyn Baratheon's daughter still had Targ looks if the Baratheon gene was as strong as you suggested. THEN in a separate post I asked @TheFattestLeech how their theory of Targ birth order worked in the case of Rhaenyra's first three children - to which you jumped in to lecture me on what I already knew (which was the point of my post) followed up by more of your Bb gene googling which doesn't actually apply in a world with dragons and tree-boys.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I initially asked you why Jocelyn Baratheon's daughter still had Targ looks if the Baratheon gene was as strong as you suggested.

Genes are not strong or weak. They are dominant B, or recessive b. Daughter of Jocelyn Baratheon didn't looked like Baratheon, while all children of Robert got a typical Baratheon looks <- there is no contradictions here. Jocelyn herself was a carrier of Bb genes, B from her father Robar Baratheon and b from her mother Alyssa Velaryon. Thru marriage with Alyssa, this part of Baratheon family lost their first B gene, and after marriage of Jocelyn with Aemon Targaryen, they lost their second B gene, and instead their offsprings, starting from Rhaenys, were carriers of bb genes. But there were other Baratheons, brothers/sisters of Robar and Jocelyn, and their aunts/uncles that didn't crossed with Targaryens and their bb genes, but instead married with other carriers of BB or Bb genes, and thus kept passing to their offsprings their B genes. Robert and his brothers are carriers of BB genes, thus no matter what gene pair their significant other will have, the resulting baby will get Baratheons' B gene and with it their dark coloring. Robert's side of the family had only one Targaryen ancestor close to his generation - his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen. But both of her bb genes, got lost on their way to her grandchildren.

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

which doesn't actually apply in a world with dragons and tree-boys.

But they DO apply. And looks of all characters, whose ancestors/children we know, only prove it.

21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Again, this is waaaay off topic for this thread.

Is this that thread? -> http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138744-targaryen-non-targaryen-children-always-favor-the-non-targ-parent/

I'll post there.

@maudisdottir Let's switch to that thread.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Genes are not strong or weak. They are dominant B, or recessive b. Daughter of Jocelyn Baratheon didn't looked like Baratheon, while all children of Robert got a typical Baratheon looks <- there is no contradictions here. Jocelyn herself was a carrier of Bb genes, B from her father Robar Baratheon and b from her mother Alyssa Velaryon. Thru marriage with Alyssa, this part of Baratheon family lost their first B gene, and after marriage of Jocelyn with Aemon Targaryen, they lost their second B gene, and instead their offsprings, starting from Rhaenys, were carriers of bb genes. But there were other Baratheons, brothers/sisters of Robar and Jocelyn, and their aunts/uncles that didn't crossed with Targaryens and their bb genes, but instead married with other carriers of BB or Bb genes, and thus kept passing to their offsprings their B genes. Robert and his brothers are carriers of BB genes, thus no matter what gene pair their significant other will have, the resulting baby will get Baratheons' B gene and with it their dark coloring. Robert's side of the family had only one Targaryen ancestor close to his generation - his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen. But both of her bb genes, got lost on their way to her grandchildren.

But they DO apply. And looks of all characters, whose ancestors/children we know, only prove it.

Is this that thread? -> http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138744-targaryen-non-targaryen-children-always-favor-the-non-targ-parent/

I'll post there.

@maudisdottir Let's switch to that thread.

I am out running around at the moment. I’ll start a more detailed thread when I get back and will invite the current discussers there.  

Here is the appropriate thread

 

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

@maudisdottir Let's switch to that thread.

No, I don't think you're understanding me. I don't want to read another half a page on real world genetics, so please stop.

[Megorova]

Back to original topic of this thread:

Quote

          The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun,

          and her kisses were warmer than spring.

But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel,

and its kiss was a terrible thing.

The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed,

in a voice that was sweet as a peach,

But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own,

and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.

As he lay on the ground with the darkness around,

and the taste of his blood on his tongue,

His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer,

and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,

"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

the Dornishman's taken my life,

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

Dornishman from this song is Maron Martell. His wife is Daenerys Targaryen. The one who "tasted" her is Daemon I Blackfyre. Brothers from the song are not actual brothers, rather they are brothers in arms, supporters of Blackfyres, including his one real brother, that was also there on that battlefield, where Daemon died (Battle of Redgrass Field) - Aegor Bittersteel Rivers <- he's the author of this song. When he went into exile in Tyrosh, later he created there a Golden Company. And this song, that they used to sing as their marcher song, thru them got spread all over Tyrosh, Lys, Myr, western Essos, and eventually to Westeros.

Maron and Daenerys married in 187. To mark the occasion of his marriage, Maron had the Water Gardens built. That's where the Dornishman's wife was singing while she bathed.

"The First Blackfyre Rebellion broke out in 195 AC and engulfed most of Westeros, but had been years in the making. Some lords, especially marcher lords, still hated the Dornishmen as King Aegon IV Targaryen had, and the peaceful Daeron was disliked for his ties with House Martell. Some nobles instead looked to Daemon Blackfyre, a Great Bastard who had been granted Blackfyre, one of the Valyrian steel swords of House Targaryen, by Aegon for his martial skill.^[1]Daemon and Princess Daenerys had loved each other, but Daeron had his sister instead wed Maron Martell to bring Dorne into the realm.^[11]

Daemon's, half brother and fellow Great Bastard Aegor Rivers, known as Bittersteel, motivated Daemon to finally make his claim." 

Most likely Maron and Mariah Martells were grandchildren of Drazenko Rogare and Aliandra Martell. Prince of Dorne, that has bend the knee to Daeron I in 158, at the Submission of Sunspear, probably was son of Drazenko and Aliandra.

Drazenko was brother of Lysandro the Magnificent, head of the Rogare Bank (that at that time was even more powerful than the Iron Bank of Braavos). Also Drazenko was uncle of Larra Rogare (wife of Viserys II, and mother of Aegon IV), Lysaro, and Moredo (he was a soldier who carried the Valyrian steel sword Truth).

Moredo Rogare and Prince of Dorne (son of Drazenko, father of Maron, father-in-law of Daenerys) were cousins. Moredo didn't had children, so could be that he left his Valyrian sword Truth to son of his cousin - Maron Martell.

"By that time, Brynden Rivers, known as Bloodraven, and his company, the Raven's Teeth, crested the Weeping Ridge, gaining the high ground from where he showered Daemon's position with arrows. Bloodraven spied Daemon's banner and slew the elder of Daemon's twin sons, Aegon, knowing that Daemon would never leave his son on the field, and then pierced Daemon with seven shafts, killing him. The younger twin, Aemon, picked up Blackfyre when his father fell, and Bloodraven slew him too.^[3]

With their leaders fallen, the rebels began to flee then, until Bittersteel, who had commanded the right at the beginning of the battle, was able to turn the rout into a charge at the enemy. He personally fought a great battle with Bloodraven, taking his eye during a battle that was second only to Daemon and Corbray's.^[3]At that point, Prince Baelor Breakspear struck the rebel rear with a host of stormlords and Dornishmen, shattering their lines and the battle was ended. Maekar led the rest of the forces to crush the rebels between them.^[3]"

That battle happened in 196, by that time Maron Martell and Daenerys were already married for 11 years. So most likely Dornishmen troops were led by Maron, as their Commander. And it actually doesn't matter, whether Maron and Daemon crossed their swords on that battlefield, or not. What matters is that Daemon rebelled against Targaryens, and one of the reasons for that, was the fact that Daemon and Daenerys loved each other, but her family married her to Maron.

And the song doesn't actually say, that the main character of it was killed by Dornishman's sword: "But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a terrible thing", "But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own, and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.", "the Dornishman's taken my life".

Could be that the meaning of a song, like with many songs in general, isn't entirely literal. For example - swords don't actually sing, or kiss, or bite. So could be that the real meaning of "the Dornishman's taken my life", was that Daemon was there on that battlefield because of Maron - the Dornishman, and because of Maron stealing from him his beloved woman, thus he has taken Daemon's life (figuratively), even though he wasn't the one who actually killed him.

[maudisdottir]

^I actually liked this up until the part where Baelor Breakspear is the Dornishman that took his life, even though Bloodraven is the one who killed Daemon Blackfyre. But Daenerys and the Water Gardens definitely fit the first part of the song.

[Aegon VII]

On December 4, 2017 at 10:08 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Then by all means, post some of this "shit ton of evidence".

This conversation has been had 500 times before, so excuse me if I'm tired of typing a novel here, as I'm well aware how this convo goes. A couple points I'll touch on would be , his blood is no more royal than mine, Aegon steelsongs parallels to Jon, the parallel of the dornishmans/northmans wife and both mance and rhaegars life, Mance's color scheme is targ colors, and more specifically scarlet which rhaegars had a plume of scarlet silk when he died, the prominence of rubies in rhaegars death and rubies being associated with glamors, followed by mance using e same colors (black iron fetters and red ruby, to glamor). Add in the Mance's personality makes no sense for someone who grew up in a situation very similar to a prison. Plus all the questions of his origins. Between qhorin, Osha, and queen selyse none of our three origin stories for mance are the same. Then we add in Mance's obsession with digging up graves, finding magical horns, and saving people from the others. Evidence supports rhaegar had the same obsession with prophecy (it seems I must be a warrior). Both also use the sword as a last resort. That's maybe 1/100th the evidence, but also look at all the other identities that are questionable, Arthur and qhorin both say the "knees do not bend easily" line. We also have qhorin saying a fires beauty reminds him of a maiden on her wedding night, a little too poetic for a nw killer. Jon doesn't think his blade cuts him and then sees a ruby necklace, again rubies making us question his identities. I believe the kettlebacks, halfhand and lemore, quaithe, etc all may be people we know who went into hiding after rr.

as you can see from a decade of threads on this site, every theory that loosely relates to mance is rhaegar gets flooded by a bunch of people who feel so confident that mance isn't rhaegar that they shit on it. oddly enough, it's always the same few objections, that have the same few responses, that never goes anywhere 

 

I seriously invite you to research it more. Better yet, reread the series with it in mind.

I'll leave you with a quote by bran vras,

 

"In one of the most curious of his many aspects, Mance's life seemed to follow the same archetype than Prince Rhaegar's. Perhaps, instead of the hell where they have been consigned, the proponents of the notion that Mance is Rhaegar should be given some sort of special place in purgatory."

 

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

Mance Rayder and Rhaegar Targaryen are two different people. Why should I go back and read the series, which I've already done, with a specific mindset of Mance and Rhaegar being the same individual, that'd be biased reading. And again, Mance Rayder is not Rhaegar Targaryen and nothing you just posted accounts for  proof of evidence. Mance's color scheme isn't red and black, he only wears a red and black cloak, and scarlet is just another word for red, or a finer type red in terms of it's color and texture. In multiple chapters his cloak is described as a tattered red and black cloak, while in other chapters it's referred to as Scarlet and Black. But anyway, you're claiming that Mance has to be  Rhaegar because they wore cloaks with the same colors? And Qhorin is Arthur Dayne now because they both allude to not bending easily to their foes, and so does Mance and all the other Wildlings, they all can't be Arthur Dayne or Rhaegar Targaryen. The "Our Knees Do Not Bend" thing seems to be a common saying in the world of ASOIAF, much like "Gods be good" "Dark Wings;Dark Words", etc.Where is it ever said that Mance grew up in a prison type environment? All thats said about him is that he was a black brother, one of the best, whom ultimately deserts and become Kings Beyond The Wall.  He retells the story of why he left the NW, and the red in his cloak came from a healers daughter, whom lived beyond the wall, whom healed his wounds and used her own scarlet material to repair the rips the Shadowcat left in his cloak, according to him, the NW didn't find the repaired cloak suitable and replaced it with a new all black cloak, he left the next morning for a place where "a kiss was not a crime". He mentions nothing of a "prison like environment, and where exactly is it written that Mance had an obsession for rubies? Because I'm pretty sure he had none. If Ygritte's POV in ASOS  is anything of relevance, she says that the goal was to bring down the wall, and depending on how you interpret the very last sentence of the Ygritte POV I'm referring to, it wasn't until they started digging up graves searching for the Horn of Joramun, that the Other's built an army and became a true threat. So if this is truly the case (Hell if I know that this is what GRRM meant when writing  that part), then the Others weren't Mance's prime motive of bringing down the wall, its possible he was simlply seeking more desirable land for him and his people. Mance Rayder also doesn't scream someone who is so into prophecy, as opposed to someone seeking a specific ancient object for the benefit of moving his people. And with the whole attitude thing, him loving music and loving to display his musical chops, DOES NOT make him Rhaegar Targaryen. Tom O'Sevenstrings, also has a love for music and likes to display his musical abilities, is he Rhaegar in disguise as well, as a member of the Brotherhood without Banners?