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Did Rhaegar taste Dornishman's wife?


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5 hours ago, Crona said:

Just a thought...but Rhaegar did get with Robert’s bethrothal and paid for it. Might have been better to write a song about it rather than meet him in a battlefield

Exactly my point. He ran away with her and it sparked a war in Westeros. If he did the same with Princess Elia Martell something would have happened. Maybe not to the extent of what happen with Lyanna but there surely would have been a backlash.

The song in question is about a man having an affair with the Dornishman's wife, a woman who he seemed smitten over, and the Dornishman stabs him with a blade for it. Doesn't sound like Rhaegar's and Elia's story to me. 

If the song was about tasting the Stormlord's betrothed and how hard his hammer crushed him then I could see a possible theory there that would even support Mance=Rhaegar. It wasn't though.

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7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Honestly this song always reminds me about Arthur Dayne, Elia and a Kingswood brother (mixture of Ulmer and smiling knight). 

Somebody (ulmer) stole a kiss from a dornish princess. Then a dornishman (arthur) with a magic dangerous blade (dawn) killed him (smiling knight) . If you combine ulmer and smiling knight, then everything fits. In the song, that guy even “smiled” becore he dies. 

I would not be surprised if one day GRRM reveals that Arthur and Elia are lovers and Aegon is a bastard son with Dayne blood. He can not only whitewash Rhaegar and Lyanna, but also shows us all men are flawed including Arthur Dayne. Plus young griff can work with Gerold Dayne and use Dawn. 

Think about this, we know every Dayne’s hair color and eye color, Ashara’s dark hair and violet eyes, Ned’s blond hair and deep blue eyes, Gerold’s silver hair with black streak and dark purple eyes. 

But we know nothing about famous Arthur Dayne’s hair colorand eye color? suspicious. 

That’s what I feel like too, and I really want it to be true but I run into some problems with it. Such as if Arthur was the father then why was he with Rhaegar during the rebellion, wouldn’t Rhaegar want to take away his knighthood once he found out?

Of course, Rhaegar may not have known, and also Arthur is described as having a sad smile both in Ned’s and Jaime’s dreams, could it have been because he was having an affair with his friend’s wife and he felt conflicted?

Also,  I do like the idea that Ashara is taking care of her nephew, but  I have a problem with the baby swap. Like if Ashara was also behind the swap, then why didn’t she also save her niece? And if the swap happened, why did Elia fight so fiercely over a child that wasn’t hers.

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Exactly my point. He ran away with her and it sparked a war in Westeros. If he did the same with Princess Elia Martell something would have happened. Maybe not to the extent of what happen with Lyanna but there surely would have been a backlash.

Actually what started the war was Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard  then Jon Arryn  raising his banners after Aerys asked for the heads of Robert and Ned. 

We are not sure what information Brandon was told about Lyanna and Rhaegar that made him go to King’s Landing

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1 hour ago, Crona said:

We are not sure what information Brandon was told about Lyanna and Rhaegar that made him go to King’s Landing

One of the things I've come to realize with Brandon is that whatever he was told about Rhaegar and Lyanna, whether he was told she was kidnapped, or that they were seen riding together smiling and laughing, Brandon's reaction would still have been the same if he was still pissed about the crowning at Harrenhal. Even if he knew Lyanna wasn't taken against her will, I think he would still see this as a slight against her honor and the honor of his House.

I do think this thing with the Starks and Targaryens, Rhaegar and Lyanna runs much, much deeper than whatever we have been given in the text so far. I think Lyanna and Rhaegar knew each other before Harrenhal ever happened. 

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3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

One of the things I've come to realize with Brandon is that whatever he was told about Rhaegar and Lyanna, whether he was told she was kidnapped, or that they were seen riding together smiling and laughing, Brandon's reaction would still have been the same if he was still pissed about the crowning at Harrenhal. Even if he knew Lyanna wasn't taken against her will, I think he would still see this as a slight against her honor and the honor of his House.

I do think this thing with the Starks and Targaryens, Rhaegar and Lyanna runs much, much deeper than whatever we have been given in the text so far. I think Lyanna and Rhaegar knew each other before Harrenhal ever happened. 

Brandon is hotheaded and wolfblooded but not idiot. He is the heir to the North and a well trained and educated man.  If he was told that Lyanna willingly eloped with Rhaegar, he might still be pissed off but would not do what he did. 

There is nothing in the book hinting R and L knew each other before tourney. By the way Lyanna was only 13-14 years old during tourney. And very likely HH tourney is the first time she came to the south after a harsh winter of a few years. Rhaegar hooked up with her before that? How? And if so, it sounds very bad anyway. Think about Tyrion’s atttitude on Sansa. 

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13 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Good luck, theories involving mance being rhaegar usually get bogged down by people who think they know better bashing them, it's really unfortunate. There is a shit ton of evidence supporting mance as rhaegar, but the argument always devolves the same way.

i don't think elaria was married prior but I do think there's a great chance mance is rhaegar and that the dornishmans wife could refer to Elia. Since it's a song you could half interpret it as dornish, man's wife, which Elia is. I think the song is more of a set up for the northmans daughter, which has much more of a parallel.

Then by all means, post some of this "shit ton of evidence".

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5 hours ago, Crona said:

That’s what I feel like too, and I really want it to be true but I run into some problems with it. Such as if Arthur was the father then why was he with Rhaegar during the rebellion, wouldn’t Rhaegar want to take away his knighthood once he found out?

Of course, Rhaegar may not have known, and also Arthur is described as having a sad smile both in Ned’s and Jaime’s dreams, could it have been because he was having an affair with his friend’s wife and he felt conflicted?

Also,  I do like the idea that Ashara is taking care of her nephew, but  I have a problem with the baby swap. Like if Ashara was also behind the swap, then why didn’t she also save her niece? And if the swap happened, why did Elia fight so fiercely over a child that wasn’t hers.

Actually what started the war was Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard  then Jon Arryn  raising his banners after Aerys asked for the heads of Robert and Ned. 

We are not sure what information Brandon was told about Lyanna and Rhaegar that made him go to King’s Landing

in this case Rhaegar probably did not know about Arthur and Elia’s affair. Arthur of course will feel guilty to betray his friend, his prince and his holy vow. But you know, love is the death of honor. And Arthur and Elia might love each other since they were young at Dorne, or even in watergarden. 

Because he had to obey Rhaegar to guard Tower of Joy, he could not go back to protect his lover and children. This is absolutely a sad thing for him plus he might already know the death of Elia and his two children. He might already give up the will for living, thus was killed by Ned and Howland. 

As for Rhaenys, she is three years old and quite recognizable so kind of hard to swap. and Elia seems to love young children (she wanted to take care of baby Tyrion) and it is not surprising she would fight for him. Plus this baby saved her son’s life. 

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@purple-eyes, I feel like you're yelling at me for what I wrote. It's just a speculation, like every single post in this forum. You can call it tin foil or impossible if you want.

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Brandon is hotheaded and wolfblooded but not idiot.

But he is an idiot. He rode to the Red Keep and yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die. He didn't arrive there and asked for an audience with the king, which would have been the best course of action. He shouted for the crown prince to come out and die instead. He did the stupidest thing anyone could have done.

18 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

There is nothing in the book hinting R and L knew each other before tourney.

It's not the thread for this, but I think there is. I started wondering about it after rereading Jon I in AGOT. And for some reason, everyone has decided that Aerys sent Rhaegar after the mystery knight right away, when the text clearly states that it happened the following day. I think that's kind of important. 

23 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

By the way Lyanna was only 13-14 years old during tourney.

She was born in 266-267, she was 14 or 15. But this isn't a universe where age matters once a girl has her period. Illyrio Mopatis says as much about Dany before she's married off to Drogo.

28 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

And very likely HH tourney is the first time she came to the south after a harsh winter of a few years.

We assume that Lyanna was kept at Winterfell her whole life. I have doubts on this. 

32 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar hooked up with her before that? How?

I never said they were hooking up. I said they might have known each other before the tourney. 

In any case, it's all speculation.

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On 12/2/2017 at 7:52 AM, RedGrace that was promised said:

Mance Ryder's (who is Rhaegar I believe) favourite song is Dornishman's wife. What if Elia secretly married before Rhaegar

No

On 12/2/2017 at 7:52 AM, RedGrace that was promised said:

 

  • It explains why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna

It does no such thing 

On 12/2/2017 at 7:52 AM, RedGrace that was promised said:

 

  • (f)Aegon is bastard.

That is a possibility, but not as you describe it 

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2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No

On 02.12.2017 at 7:52 PM, RedGrace that was promised said:

Why?

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It does no such thing 

On 02.12.2017 at 7:52 PM, RedGrace that was promised said:

Why?

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That is a possibility, but not as you describe it 

Ok

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27 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Why?

The mance=rhaegar was an exercise. A game. A joke. Forum denizens took it to an extreme.
Rhaegar being alive ruins everything about Jon being his son.

27 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Why?

Because it would make no sense for the dornish to propose marriage to the prince if elia was already.  She is the daughter of the prince of Dorne. There are no secret weddings, and if there were, they would be annulled when the King came calling 

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35 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

@purple-eyes, I feel like you're yelling at me for what I wrote. It's just a speculation, like every single post in this forum. You can call it tin foil or impossible if you want.

But he is an idiot. He rode to the Red Keep and yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die. He didn't arrive there and asked for an audience with the king, which would have been the best course of action. He shouted for the crown prince to come out and die instead. He did the stupidest thing anyone could have done.

It's not the thread for this, but I think there is. I started wondering about it after rereading Jon I in AGOT. And for some reason, everyone has decided that Aerys sent Rhaegar after the mystery knight right away, when the text clearly states that it happened the following day. I think that's kind of important. 

She was born in 266-267, she was 14 or 15. But this isn't a universe where age matters once a girl has her period. Illyrio Mopatis says as much about Dany before she's married off to Drogo.

We assume that Lyanna was kept at Winterfell her whole life. I have doubts on this. 

I never said they were hooking up. I said they might have known each other before the tourney. 

In any case, it's all speculation.

Brandon is not an idiot. He is just a brother who was extremely shocked by the kidnapping of his beloved child-woman (according to Ned) sister by a group of fully armed and adult men. A kidnapping can mean raping and murdering, these things often happen pretty quickly after the kidnapping too. And as a brother, it is very easy for him to only think about the worst, not to analyze and decide what is the wisest thing to do. It is almost impossible for him to think wisely and calmly in this situation. And it is very normal and common for people to make mistakes during panic. His love in Lyanna drove him to do so in this case.

Not everybody decided Aerys sent rhaegar right away. At least not me. In fact, anyone who has read the book carefully knew that Rhaegar did not go to do this immediately after Mystery knight left.

Mystery knight showed up and defeated three knights near the end of the day, then the day is over. Then the next morning, this mystery knight is supposed to show up but he did not. So Aerys sent Rhaegar to investigate (so there was at least 12 hours between). All Rhaegar can do is to talk with those three knights, figure out about three squire boys, talked with these three boys, heard about Lyanna and Howland Reed, then searched for Lyanna and Howland Reed, then Lyanna told him what happened, then Rhaegar felt he should just help her hide from Aerys' wrath, then he brought back that shield as a proof to show his dad he has tried and only found this shield. That is the whole thing. 

I am not sure why this can importantly hint that Rhaegar and Lyanna knew each other before the HH tourney. 

 

 

 

 

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Doesn't it make more sense if Mance is Aemon's Bastard?

 
Quote

 

The old man (Aemon) seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"
Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what." 
"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy

 

 

Quote

Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

 

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10 hours ago, Crona said:

Actually what started the war was Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard  then Jon Arryn  raising his banners after Aerys asked for the heads of Robert and Ned.

And why did Aerys kill Brandon and Rickard. Why did Brandon go to King"s Landing? Notice how I said Rhaegar running off with Lyanna "sparked" a war.  It led to events that started a war.

Are you saying that if Brandon never heard about Rhaegar running off with /kid napping Lyanna in some form or fashion he still would have left and went to King's Landing and called out for Rhaegar to face him in mortal combat?

 

10 hours ago, Crona said:

We are not sure what information Brandon was told about Lyanna and Rhaegar that made him go to King’s Landing

We know it involved Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar. Hints him calling out Rhaegar.

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

And why did Aerys kill Brandon and Rickard. Why did Brandon go to King"s Landing? Notice how I said Rhaegar running off with Lyanna "sparked" a war.  It led to events that started a war.

Are you saying that if Brandon never heard about Rhaegar running off with /kid napping Lyanna in some form or fashion he still would have left and went to King's Landing and called out for Rhaegar to face him in mortal combat?

 

We know it involved Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar. Hints him calling out Rhaegar.

Look Lyanna ran away or was abducted was a family issue that he should have discussed with his family first rather than traveling to KL and demanding for Rhaegar to come out and die. You realize he just threatened the crown on something Aerys may not have known about. When you threaten the police in real life, you actually do get imprisoned. Brandon was supposed to be a lord, he should have known better than that, and Lyanna’s actions in those moments did not start a war, it could have been handled in different ways then the way he did it. So, only Brandon himself is to blame for his death and after his death, that’s when the first blood was drawn and war started. 

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, here is the basic gist of the idea that I wonder about. I am not calling this a "theory" by any means or making a statement that this is true. Just some ideas... as I patiently wait for TWOW.

Could the following quote, amongst a few other quotes, be a hint that Rhaegar did indeed set Elia aside and married Lyanna?

What if Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and Elia's children because they "smelled Dornish", and that is a hint that the kids were not truly Rhaegar's but from someone else? There certainly is enough precedent throughout the Targ history in Westeros that many of the wives birthed children that were not the husband's, including Rhaenys I with Aegon I.

So what if Aerys disinheriting baby Aegon and baby Rhaenys is a clue that Rhaegar did set Elia aside and took Lyanna to wife? I know there are other questions on this idea that relate to other bits of "known" history, but this just popped in to my head and I have not thought all of it out yet, like could the true father be a Dornish guard. And I know much of Aerys actions were spurred by rumors and to date we readers have not had any official documents or discussion on the matter happen on page to differentiate between what Aerys maybe wanted to do and what he actually put on paper. It has not, to my best memory, been brought up by people like Eddard, Cersei, Varys, any high lords or even any maesters or septons that there is an official decree that the throne goes to Viserys, and that those in the the know of Westeros know where Viserys is currently.

And the names of the two children of Elia are the same ones from history that were rumored (Rhaenys) to have been messing around on the other (Aegon the Conq) and birthed non-legit children.

Visenya was the bride for "duty", and it is said she and Aegon had a cold relationship.

I have no problem at all with Jon being a bastard, because in the story as in real life, it is the actions that make the man, not the words of some asinine oath/vow (as shown over and over again). I am also thinking Jon will still not care either way and he certainly will not become hungry for the throne if he finds out his birth status.

If the info in Sons of the Dragon is accurate, and most of it is a repeat of info in the world book and main books, then both polygamy and Targ incest was never officially accepted by the Faith/7, and a blind eye was turned only when the Faith/maesters/or grasping high lord were promised riches and promotions of some sort. Basic gluttony. And if Aegon followed apparent Targ custom and married the older sister first (Visenya) then she would be seen as legit, and Rhaenys the second polygamous wife would not be officially accepted, and since all current day Targs come from Rhaenys, then all current day Targs are "bastards". Yes, I am aware that Rhaenys was eventually titled queen, but there are many formalities that were given out of respect (read: fear of burning) and the Faith and smallfolk and others all rallied against Targ incest and polygamy for decades regardless.

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

"If you mean I see the same thing, yes," the man said. "I see a man who would sooner die than betray his king."
"He betrayed one already, or have you forgotten?" the woman said. "Oh, I don't deny he's loyal to Robert, that's obvious. What happens when Robert dies and Joff takes the throne? And the sooner that comes to pass, the safer we'll all be. My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"
Bran was suddenly very frightened. He wanted nothing so much as to go back the way he had come, to find his brothers. Only what would he tell them? He had to get closer, Bran realized. He had to see who was talking.
 
Does it matter at this point?

This is an excellent obversation, and honestly Elia’s children being bastards is also just speculations on my part. if it is true then it would matter in the story, in my opinion, it would mean Aegon is still the “acting dragon” but he may be destined for a different fate. I think its interesting that Rhaenys and Aegon had a cold relationship (similar to Elia and Rhaegar) and she may have had bastards, perhaps a parallel? Also, if it was known that the children were illegitimate then it would make sense for Rhaegar to put aside Elia and also having the crown’s permission to find another wife.  Also, during the time that he crowned Lyanna during the tourney of Harrenhall and Elia was present and yet we do not get any insight in what she thought of it and she was pregnant with Aegon at the time. Perhaps, she didn’t say anything because he already suspected that she was unfaithful and didn’t want the rumors to spread.

Also, there is a strong indication that Jon is legitimate but I always wondered why should he be legitimate, if having a child with Lyanna was to fulfill a prophecy, why not leave him illegitimate? He will still have targ, and also his other children will be considered bastards so what is the purpose of Jon being legitimate and not the others?    I am fine with the prophecy aspect, but the whole part of him being legitimate makes me feel like there was another aspect to the story.

7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

in this case Rhaegar probably did not know about Arthur and Elia’s affair. Arthur of course will feel guilty to betray his friend, his prince and his holy vow. But you know, love is the death of honor. And Arthur and Elia might love each other since they were young at Dorne, or even in watergarden. 

Because he had to obey Rhaegar to guard Tower of Joy, he could not go back to protect his lover and children. This is absolutely a sad thing for him plus he might already know the death of Elia and his two children. He might already give up the will for living, thus was killed by Ned and Howland. 

As for Rhaenys, she is three years old and quite recognizable so kind of hard to swap. and Elia seems to love young children (she wanted to take care of baby Tyrion) and it is not surprising she would fight for him. Plus this baby saved her son’s life. 

Do you think that Rhaegar suspected that Elia was unfaithful? Also, if my memory serves me right, didn’t Elia say a name when she died? Could that have been Arthur, would parallel with Rhaegar saying Lyanna as he died

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What if Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and Elia's children because they "smelled Dornish", and that is a hint that the kids were not truly Rhaegar's but from someone else?

But there really isn’t anything else in the books to even hint at this. Isn’t it enough to have one Dornish parent to make the child “smell Dornish”?

And when people argue “why would Aerys think/say/do that unless OMG bastard escandalo!” I would respectfully submit: MAD KING.

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So I'm going to leave the mance and rhaegar stuff alone and instead provide an alternative interpretation of the song itself. I saw someone earlier say that they saw the song a metaphor for forbidden love and paying the price for it(paraphrasing). I agree this is very likely, especially considering Jon and Ygrittes' romance in Jons subsequent chapters.                                                                                                      Another possible interpretation exists I believe. The tone of the song to me does not at all seem mournful, regretful, or even sad. It seems to me that the dying man is meeting his fate happily, with no regrets, taken in this context, the song could be a metaphor for something worth dying for, such as love, for the dornishmans wife or the North man's daughter. Maybe it's not a girl at all, maybe it's duty. For example in the chapters leading up to his meeting with mance(And the song) Jon witnesses first hand examples of this in The Halfhand and Stonesnake. His brothers met their fate with head held high, content that they are dieing for a cause bigger than themselves.                                                                                                                   Interestingly, either interpretation could be argued as foreshadowing for quite a few endgame scenarios 

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