US Politics: Russian Roulette Republican Style

[Zorral]

There is just too much weird stuff going on, particularly in light of Seder being reinstated by MSNB because they found out the accusations were without merit.

https://www.avclub.com/msnbc-brings-back-sam-seder-after-firing-him-over-alt-1821080464

Keillor's lawyer doesn't even know who has accused Keillor or what he's accused:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/keillor-attorney-set-record-straight

In the meantime The WaPo and CNN are investigating 20+ more people in the house and senate for sexual misconduct.  At least I think so -- it was a twitter remark to which my attention was pointed by a friend, and I can't find it again now -- I don't tweet.

This is all starting to recall for me the witch hunts and lynchings of all the satanists in preschool and so on back in the 1980's -- and people losing their jobs, their families, their reputations and even going to jail -- and it was all mass hysteria.  Which I recognized at the time.

 

[Red Hermit]

It's not really unreasonable to think that a lot of people in positions of power have engaged in sexual harassment though.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

 

This is all starting to recall for me the witch hunts and lynchings of all the satanists in preschool and so on back in the 1980's -- and people losing their jobs, their families, their reputations and even going to jail -- and it was all mass hysteria.  Which I recognized at the time.

 

Yes, because putting your foot down on sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape and pedophilia is so much the same as someone who believes in magic and sky fairies putting their foot down in imaginary boogeymen.  Exactly the same.  

We women and our hysteria, I tell ya.

[Fez]

Seder is different though, he was never accused of harassment/assault. He was accused of defending Roman Polanski by right-wing assholes and MSNBC fell for it by not understanding what satire was. Most people felt it was unjustified from the get-go, and MSNBC has now realized what idiots they were.

[lokisnow]

Next up, Al Franken makes a speech referencing the crucible and that he’s the real victim here, right.

theres something painfully ironic in using the term witch hunt in these scenarios.

i am more concerned that abusive behavior is so systemic Being a bigger problem than that too many people being outed (and the possibility that republicans are gaming the system).

there is a cognitive component to this. That as the tragedy gets bigger your capacity to empathize or care is used up and you just stop paying attention to it because your brain decides it just can’t deal anymore. Sort of like Puerto Rico.

 

[KingintheNorth4]

I noticed how Al Franken Ethered Trump and Moore during his resignation speech.

I dig it. 

[denstorebog]

4 minutes ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

I noticed how Al Franken Ethered Trump and Moore during his resignation speech.

I dig it. 

Nah, he could have gone a lot harder on that.

[Zorral]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yes, because putting your foot down on sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape and pedophilia is so much the same as someone who believes in magic and sky fairies putting their foot down in imaginary boogeymen.  Exactly the same.  

We women and our hysteria, I tell ya.

You are not remembering what that satanists in our kindergardens and preschools was about -- not magic and sky fairies, but sexual interference, murders, drinking blood and burying it in the back of the school yard.  And people went to jail out of that who had never done anything at all, much less this garbage.  Which any sane person would know wasn't true -- and depended on children who were led to say what their interviewers wanted to hear from them.

It's not hysteria either, when it comes to women like Senator Kristen Gillabrand, who is supposed to be representing what we voters here want and need, but power grab and making a name, that have nothing to do with getting rid of the so-called tax reform bill, but is about everything else but tax reform and grab to get All the Money in the hands of very very very few.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Just when you thought they were gone, the gay wedding cakes come roaring back:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-cake.html

[Zorral]

19 minutes ago, Red Hermit said:

It's not really unreasonable to think that a lot of people in positions of power have engaged in sexual harassment though.

Of course not. Nobody is even suggesting otherwise. We know it. We have proofs and confirmation and even, in some cases, due process.  And even so the mango is scot free and he's the worst abuser of them all, with perhaps -- perhaps only -- the except of Weinstein.

But we're talking about something else here.  And it really is important not to allow those people that the mango etc. represent -- who are no friends to women or anyone or anything -- to game our own system.

[The Warlock of Qarth]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Oh ffs.  FOR FUCK'S SAKE.  You have several cases where there has been clear evidence of inappropriate behavior and suddenly the men are all "omg now anonymous accusers with zero evidence can ruin us all."

Can you imagine how women have felt for decades (centuries!) living with the fear and pain of silence for how you cave dwellers treat us?

For fuck's sake.  

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The only thing that is definitely proven with Franken is that he had a crude photo taken while Tweeden was sleeping. Everything else is unsubstantiated and denied by Franken. But more importantly, by denying Franken an ethics investigation the Democratic party have basically set them up for a massive Repub railroading in the future since there will be no evidentiary bar that needs to be passed at all and the only acceptable punishment is immediate resignation. To assume the Repubs will not weaponize the #metoo movement in the future (leaving aside Franken for the moment: I personally suspect Franken was railroaded, but I know a lot of people here disagree) to take down Dems would be politically naive, as Repub opratives have shown in the past (ACORN, McCain's 'black baby', Planned Parenthood, Shirley Sherrod, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth etc,) that they're both willing and capable of ratfucking people in order to score political wins.

[Dr. Pepper]

20 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Next up, Al Franken makes a speech referencing the crucible and that he’s the real victim here, right.

theres something painfully ironic in using the term witch hunt in these scenarios.

i am more concerned that abusive behavior is so systemic Being a bigger problem than that too many people being outed (and the possibility that republicans are gaming the system).

there is a cognitive component to this. That as the tragedy gets bigger your capacity to empathize or care is used up and you just stop paying attention to it because your brain decides it just can’t deal anymore. Sort of like Puerto Rico.

 

Yes, same.  I don't think this movement will reach the average woman because the average woman isn't interacting with someone whose news of harassing behavior would make the evening news.  Is a restaurant worker any more protected than she was yesterday?  No, probably not.  Doubly true for women of color.  This isn't going to change anything anymore than the Anita Hill period changed things.

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You are not remembering what that satanists in our kindergardens and preschools was about -- not magic and sky fairies, but sexual interference, murders, drinking blood and burying it in the back of the school yard.  And people went to jail out of that who had never done anything at all, much less this garbage.  Which any sane person would know wasn't true -- and depended on children who were led to say what their interviewers wanted to hear from them.

It's not hysteria either, when it comes to women like Senator Kristen Gillabrand, who is supposed to be representing what we voters here want and need, but power grab and making a name, that have nothing to do with getting rid of the so-called tax reform bill, but is about everything else but tax reform and grab to get All the Money in the hands of very very very few.

The satanist garbage was religious in nature, which isn't a particularly sane place to be starting from.  This isn't the same.

But thanks for making sure we know that women who stand up for shit are just a bunch of power grabbers.  We gotta know our place.

[Dr. Pepper]

6 minutes ago, Warlock of Quarth said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The only thing that is definitely proven with Franken is that he had a crude photo taken while Tweeden was sleeping. Everything else is unsubstantiated and denied by Franken. But more importantly, by denying Franken an ethics investigation the Democratic party have basically set them up for a massive Repub railroading in the future since there will be no evidentiary bar that needs to be passed at all and the only acceptable punishment is immediate resignation. To assume the Repubs will not weaponize the #metoo movement in the future (leaving aside Franken for the moment: I personally suspect Franken was railroaded, but I know a lot of people here disagree) to take down Dems would be politically naive, as Repub opratives have shown in the past (ACORN, McCain's 'black baby', Planned Parenthood, Shirley Sherrod, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth etc,) that they're both willing and capable of ratfucking people in order to score political wins.

This isn't true about Franken.  Again, their are photos, social media accounts, eyewitnesses substantiating most claims.  His denying it is meaningless.  Trump admitted on tape that he assaults women, and now denies he does it.  So yeah, that's a bullshit excuse right there.

But of course Republicans are going to weaponize it.  They are deplorable people who stand for nothing.  There is nothing right that Dems can do because no matter what, Republicans will always be the pieces of shit they are.  Destruction is all they know.  It's not a reason for Dems to not stand for something.  We're in the long decline right now, I'd like some comforts while it happens, like not having politicians harassing and assaulting women.

[Ormond]

41 minutes ago, Zorral said:

This is all starting to recall for me the witch hunts and lynchings of all the satanists in preschool and so on back in the 1980's -- and people losing their jobs, their families, their reputations and even going to jail -- and it was all mass hysteria.  Which I recognized at the time.

 

At this point this is very different from the Satanism Child Abuse panic because that was fueled by therapists who were using recovered memory techniques or leading questions to small children which created or implanted false memories. If we start getting women accusing public figures of sexual misconduct which they claim not to have remembered at all until recently, this would be something similar. But women who told people years ago of the abuse and who have never forgotten it is a completely different matter. 

[Mexal]

The risk that this gets out of hand is great. To deny or ignore that is simply naive. Do I think women should be believed? Yes. Do I think if there are a number of credible, on the record allegations with contemporaneous corroboration, then the person should resign or be fired? Yes. Without that, you run the risk of what Warlock of Quarth said above and that one party will weaponize it against the other and that is not good.

[Kalbear]

4 hours ago, denstorebog said:

If this is what they believe on the planet you're from, I hope your kind don't make up too big a portion of the electorate, or we're fucking doomed.

We've already seen Sanders do this. He backed a Democrat who was pro-life, as an example, and he backed another with racist views on the record. I don't think that he doesn't  care about these things, but he genuinely believes that racism, sexism, bigotry all come from economic inequality, and genuinely believes that the best way to fight all of that is via socialism. 

Despite massive evidence to the contrary about Trump's voters, of course.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, S John said:

Yep, they absolutely will.  They are well aware that liberals are inclined to believe the accuser, apologize, and step aside.  All of those are the right thing to do - but the R's are going to deny, deny, deny, and obfuscate (what about Bill Clinton?) when it happens on their side.  It's a weapon to beat liberals with that won't affect them sans actual criminal charges because they know that they can just deny everything and their voters will quickly move on because anything is better than a Democrat.  It's so god damn cynical and evil, but it's very clever.  

Deny or hide behind religion. The latter has been an effective strategy for years.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Deny or hide behind religion. The latter has been an effective strategy for years.

In this case they're doing something that's even more interesting - they're denying it and using the existence of the accusations as proof that they are not part of the establishment and that others are out to get them.

This is a tactic that Sanders used as well. 

[S John]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Deny or hide behind religion. The latter has been an effective strategy for years.

I had actually typed something along those lines as part of my post but took it out lest I go on a separate tirade.  But you are absolutely correct.  The Evangelical voters... man.  The Trump era has completely wrecked me on those folks.  Don't know how many times I've read things like "Well, I know Trump isn't perfect, but he just may be God's instrument.."  Frustrating because that's the end of the argument.  You can't go anywhere from there, and that kind of thinking can be used to justify literally anything.  If you are an (R) who is going to vote pro-life, pro-2nd amendment, and take a hard line on immigration then that's a wrap on issues of personal integrity for a large group of Evangelical voters.  You are by virtue of those beliefs ironclad vs. any democrat or liberal.  You might be a piece of shit, but you're God's instrument.  That's where we are at.  

[Zorral]

17 minutes ago, Ormond said:

At this point this is very different from the Satanism Child Abuse panic because that was fueled by therapists who were using recovered memory techniques or leading questions to small children which created or implanted false memories. If we start getting women accusing public figures of sexual misconduct which they claim not to have remembered at all until recently, this would be something similar. But women who told people years ago of the abuse and who have never forgotten it is a completely different matter. 

You're obfuscating.  The points of equivalency are mass hysteria, people suffering unjustly without either proof or due process, and some people acquiring an effwad of moola and attention out of the suffering of others.