Whats in a kiss?

[Lady Dacey]

11 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Finally, let’s get to the second and last (so far) incarnation of the unkiss:

Only that's not the last incarnation of the Unkiss! While talking to Miranda Royce in A Feast for Crows - Alayne II: 

"Oh, yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?" 

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod. "That must have been dreadful, my lady. Him dying. There, I mean, whilst . . . whilst he was..."

So, here we have her connecting Sandor directly to "what happens in the marriage bed"! She remembers Tyrion, with whom she shared a bed but never had sex with. Then she remembered being kissed by the Hound and gave a nod, as in: yes, I do know what sex is like. Even though she's a virgin... she's been fantasizing about the Hound, it's pretty clear.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

14 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I have posted the above post early as my editing has fucked up and it was becoming impossible to format. But I shall continue here

I can not decide if you are being deliberately obtuse by pretending that you do not understand why people keep bringing Arya into it or if you genuinely don't grasp it or understand? But giving you the benefit of the doubt I shall explain. 

The fact Arya also forgets the name of the sword illustrates that forgetting the name of a sword is not proof that Sansa is unhinged. Anyone can forget the name of a sword. In fact I'd say most people have made similar mistakes in regards to similarly unimportant things. By continuing to act as though Sansa forgetting the name of a sword is totally important and significant of her mental state you make yourself seem as though you are clutching at straws. Can you imagine trying to say get a person admitted to an asylum based upon them misrecalling the name of the dog their boyfriend at uni had? That's akin to what you are doing here. 

GRRM did not point her misremembering the swords name out as important. The person asked about the name change of the sword and GRRM said Sansa misremembered it. He did not single out Sansa the person asked about the time Sansa said the wrong name for the sword. Can't you see that you are twisting the SSM round to be something it is not?  GRRM then uses that question which was about Sansa to springboard into the memory lapse which IS important, the UnKiss. I'm not bitter mate. I just don't think you can say something is straight from the writers mouth and use it as evidence your crackpot theory is correct when it isn't straight from the writers mouth it is in fact a misrepresentation of what the writer said. And pointing out that other people are also unreliable narrators isn't about trying to pretend Sansa is not one. It is about pointing out that her being one is not evidence she's loosing her grip on reality.  Which is damned obvious when we read her later Alayne chapters and the re-writing of Lysa's death. It is right there on the page that she knows deep down how it really happened but is trying to live the lie as Peytr tells her too. We see it again in TWOW Sample chapter when she is having some memories of her real father. 

I can't quite believe you are not trolling when in order to answer an accusation of hyperbole you used more hyperbole? 

What is this constant you mention? and when does HE bring her up as an unreliable narrator? The question was from a fan and related to Sansa therefor ehe did not bring her up the person asking the question did. It may seem that I am being pedantic here but the point is that it matters. You are presenting it as though GRRM brings her up but in fact the other person asked about her. The meaning is quite different and by framing it incorrectly as you keep doing you are attempting to alter the meaning of it. Twice is not constant and nor did he bring her up as an unreliable narrator twice. He was asked about her once and the other SSM can be discussed when you provide the link and context. I can't comment about something I am unfamiliar with. 

Why haven't you answered my questions? I made them clear by using the question marks. But I will ask you again. Why do you think it is significant that Sansa thinks Sandor kissed her? and what effect could that have on the story? 

Because it is the false memory of him kissing her that GRRM said was important. So I'd like you to explain why you think it is important specifically and what effect that false memory may have on the story. The thing itself matters not the fact she is mistaken. 

This here is why people don't talk nice to you love. Could you possibly have been more dismissive and rude and patronising? I mean come on. You continually use language which is designed to minimise and dismiss. Fluff? Really?

Your dismissing an entire and significant chunk of the subject matter of the series as fluff? And you expect to be listened to as a serious theorist and analyst? 

Also I did not ask you to tell me what you think I think I asked you what you think? I asked you

Yet you didn't answer any of this? Why is it worrying? She has 

mis-recalled the name of a sword; established already above no big deal and not indicative of a feeble mind we all do such small things. Evidenced by the fact Arya also misrecalls it's name. 

Thinks the Hound did kiss her when she was drunk and he almost did; A bit odd but given that it is a fantasy and she is a teenager and she was drunk at the time doesn't seem a huge indicator that she's loosing her grip on reality tbh. 

Is working very hard to conceal her identity and the truth about her Aunt's murder and tells herself she almost believes the lie herself now. Yeah that's normal mate. That's a real thing that we can all do if we try hard enough. It's a foundation of certain acting techniques and is how good liers manage to be so convincing. But you DO know the truth inside and Sansa shows this in her POV. 

So what is your evidence that any of this is worrying, and will snowball? 

If you want this answering you're gonna have to provide the link to that second SSM, the one you keep quoting without introducing it as a subject matter or placing it in context.  

Don't use the word trigger it just makes you sound silly. Likewise no one is bitter, unless you are I can't speak for you. 

Yes I agree inspiration does not = copied verbatim. However when you look at the story pertaining to Sansa & Sandor as a whole and examine the various scenes,motifs, themes,and techniques included the evidence stacks up that theirs is indeed a love story resembling B&TB. Ditto Jaime & Brienne. Though I would say that when looked at side by side SanSan is the more robustly themed relationship with the authors personal investment seeming to be going into it to a higher degree. His requesting the calendar art which mirrors the poster for his favourite version of the B&TB hints at his affection for SanSan as an element of ASOIAF.  

But lets be clear, people haven't pulled SanSan out of their arses, it is there on the page. So for people to suggest that her fantasy of him kissing her could be important in relation to that story line isn't whacko. And making out it is makes you look very silly. 

My point is that GRRM used a question about what was seemingly an editorial mistake to illustrate that all his characters are fallible.

 

•It’s way easier for an editor to repeat a mistake in a previous edition of a book than for George to forget something that he carefully lay out as groundwork to shape his characterization of Sansa and to use to show her memory lapses getting bigger. The sword misremembering opens the floor for an event that will come to a head or significantly impact her later on. That would require thought and dedication so I highly doubt that he mistakenly said Sansa.

 

 

The fact Arya also forgets the name of the sword illustrates that forgetting the name of a sword is not proof that Sansa is unhinged

 

•That's hardly proof that Sansa is mentally healthy. Arya's mental state is nothing less than worrying either. Both sister's are suffering mental trauma. A ten year old who wants to learn how to kill people – and who HAS killed several people – and has joined an assassin group so she can train to kill people who have harmed her family is hardly in a healthy mental state.

So to use Arya as proof that Sansa or either girls are in a healthy state of mind is laughable.

 

And yes, despite how much YOU want to dismiss the girls' mental states and act like mental trauma is impossible despite the horrors they have been going through, the WRITER himself is the one that ENCOURAGED for us to take a look into Sansa's mental state. So I will side with George on this one. And maybe you should spend some time pondering on George's question instead of dismissing it.  And what does that reveal about her psychologically? 

 

http://ew.com/article/2007/11/27/george-rr-martin-answers-your-questions/

 

 

 

What is this constant you mention? and when does HE bring her up as an unreliable narrator? The question was from a fan and related to Sansa therefor ehe did not bring her up the person asking the question did. It may seem that I am being pedantic here but the point is that it matters. You are presenting it as though GRRM brings her up but in fact the other person asked about her. The meaning is quite different and by framing it incorrectly as you keep doing you are attempting to alter the meaning of it. Twice is not constant and nor did he bring her up as an unreliable narrator twice. He was asked about her once and the other SSM can be discussed when you provide the link and context. I can't comment about something I am unfamiliar with. 

 

• George very specifically refers to Sansa as an unreliable narrator without mentioning another character when asked about the Unkiss.

''Unreliable narrator'' is the key phrase there. - GRRM

This answer was directed at Sansa and Sansa alone. So do stop bringing up every character in the story when this discussion is about Sansa. I never implied that she was the only unreliable narrator in the story. I am simply trying to discuss Sansa which seems impossible for you to focus on.

This is not a discussion about how messed up in the head Arya is getting or how unstable Cersei is, even though the same is true for them, this is about SANSA.

 

SanSan is the more robustly themed relationship with the authors personal investment seeming to be going into it to a higher degree. His requesting the calendar art which mirrors the poster for his favourite version of the B&TB hints at his affection for SanSan as an element of ASOIAF.  

•Those seem more like red-flags to me than a sign that SanSan is going to happen. The more obvious something seems in the series, the more likely it will have an ending that no one was suspecting. Number one lesson in ASOIAF. 

Furthermore, George openly shipping it and publicly fan-boying over it only cements my belief that it will not happen. As if he would spoil an intended plot line in such an obvious way.

 I don’t like to be predictable. - GRRM

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Bravo!!! Such good quality analysis. I really think you did a great job especially in breaking down the anatomy of each version she tells herself of events. You really see the progression of her fantasy here. And the reasons for it become crystal clear!

Also as someone who actually has PTSD I agree re your comments on that. Thank you. 

Thanks.  I was also going to say if Sansa was coping with trauma and using a false memory to do so, we'd have to keep in mind there are other triggers beyond her control that pop up now and then.  If George has done his homework, then we should see her having some sign of discomfort or panic when something spawns a supposed unwanted and intrusive thought. 

There's the old blind dog on the Fingers that lays with her in bed.  Literally a dog in her bed.  People let dogs sleep with them in bed so they can be comforted by their presence.  She wouldn't be bonding and cuddling with it.  She'd probably be kicking it out of the room and want nothing to do with it.  Especially after Marillion had tried to assault her in her bed, before Lothor Brune saved her and she mistook him for Sandor.  If she was ever going to be triggered to a painful flashback of that night, this should be the moment. 

That's totally not what happens.  It's not a dream about the Blackwater.  It's a dream about her marriage bed.  It can't be the Blackwater scene she's reliving, because Tyrion is in it and her marriage to him doesn't happen until much later.  She specifically calls it her wedding night.  

Quote

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.

It starts out like a nightmare with Joffrey and Robb.  Then it segways into the wedding night and Tyrion.  Yes, Sansa was terrified that night.  Unpleasant though it was, nothing ultimately traumatizing happened in the end there either.  She had Tyrion's word that they would only have sex if she consented.  But Tyrion gets transformed immediately into the guy she has designated her protector and it turns erotic.  "I wish that you were Lady" is a pretty lackluster sign of repulsion if the dream truly ended as a nightmare.  But what about those who keep insisting that it is?  Oh George, why couldn't you have given us a clearer sign with this "nightmare" so we can put this stupid argument to bed!?!  Oh wait, he does:

Quote

Once she dreamed it was still her marrying Joff, not Margaery, and on their wedding night he turned into the headsman Ilyn Payne. She woke trembling. 

Oh look.  A nightmare of the wedding night where Joffrey turns into Ilyn Payne.  She wakes up visibly shaken by it.  It's almost as if he included a parallel wedding night dream and Sansa's reaction to it for us to compare it with.    

All the dream says to me is that she rejects his worst trait, but not him.  She wishes he was her wolf and not a tormented mad dog.  It looks to me like her mind replaced her real nightmares with a comforting one that is also conflated with sex as is very human thing to do.   

@Lady Dacey  Yup, thanks for bringing that up.  By including Tyrion, she's not misremembering what happened on her wedding night.  Her memory is just fine and that was clearly unpleasant with the ambushed forced marriage, the reception with Joffrey's threats of rape, and the wedding night itself.  Why not make up a new memory to cope with a clearly very bad day when she thought she might be raped?  It was way more sexually explicit than the Blackwater where nothing sexual actually happened.  This an active conscious thought on her part to include Sandor in the marriage bed and associate him with sex, not a misremembering what happened on her wedding night.  By choosing to place him in a bed he was never in, her feelings have definitely been processed and she's actively fantasizing.               

 

 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

"Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it"

 

"You sad old hound, I wish you were Lady."

 

"Sansa woke and found the the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said"

 

None of these imply romance. Lady did not represent a romantic figure in Sansa’ life; and a replacement/stand in for her will not be one.

 

Lady was Sansa’s platonic companion, friend, and protector. Which is what all the direwolves are for the Starks they are partnered with.

 

The Hound being foreshadowed to replace what she lost in Lady: a protector, a friend, and a platonic companion; does not indicate them ending up a romantic item. What it does foreshadow, is Sandor eventually becoming a knight. Sansa’s own personal knight/sworn sword. A human form of what her direwolf was to her.

 

“A true knight” Sansa has called him before.

 

“I’m no knight,” he likes to bitterly deny.

 

But he will end up as not only a knight, but Sansa’s sworn shield.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

snip

Well you're not very good at making your point then, because that is not what it seemed like you were saying at all. I also highly doubt that he mistakenly said Sansa, indeed I have never indicated that at all. You do realise that you have quite a bad habit of speaking to me about things that you assume I feel or think which I have not said at all?

So now you are claiming that both the girls are mentally unhinged? Boy you sure do like that crazy females trope don't you. I honestly laughed when I read this bit.  I just can't even........  

Thank you for FINALLY linking the quote but I notice you don't say "here is the quote sorry I was using it without having introduced it previously and behaving in a way which was frankly rude as fuck." Oh you still are being. 

I howether shall not only provide the entire quote in it's context but I shall also sight it's source. Because I am a polite person who believes in intelligent respectful discussion. 

This quote is from an interview with GRRM in Entertainment Weekly an American TV magazine. Which if you are not an american you may not have been aware existed. So I shall helpfully explain what it is and where it comes from. 

Quote

Here’s a really particular question (which I realize means it probably won’t get asked in a general interview): In A Storm of Swords, there is a chapter early on where Sansa is thinking back to the scene at the end of A Clash of Kings when The Hound came into her room during the battle. She thinks in the chapter about how he kissed her, but in the scene in A Clash of Kings, this actually didn’t happen. Was that a typo or something? —Valdora
It’s not a typo. It is something! [Laughs] ”Unreliable narrator” is the key phrase there. The second scene is from Sansa’s thoughts. And what does that reveal about her psychologically? I try to be subtle about these things.

 OK So I've been a good little girl and I have pondered the question as I was told to. And my conclusion is this. He has pointed out that the second scene is from her thoughts, so it isn't the actual events, but rather her memory of them. I note that you left this part of the quote out when you were using it out of context earlier btw. It is not the done thing to do in case you were unaware. It rather implies that a person is attempting to misconstrue a quote in order to bolster their own personal view.  

So in light of Blue-Eyed Wolf's rather wonderful and thorough analysis which you so very rudely have ignored I shall simply say that I agree with her, she has explained beautifully exactly what that says about Sansa Psychologically. And it isn't that she's is trying to stop her entire psyche from cracking by creating ever increasing false memories. 

Quote

So do stop bringing up every character in the story when this discussion is about Sansa. I never implied that she was the only unreliable narrator in the story. I am simply trying to discuss Sansa which seems impossible for you to focus on.

Oh, you do make me laugh, I think you are quite possibly the first person ever to accuse me of being unwilling to talk about Sansa. LMAO. The point is and I'll explain it again. That by refusing to acknowledge that there are multiple unreliable narrators you are trying to imply that being an unreliable narrator is indicative of her unstable mind. Because if you had to admit that all characters are unreliable narrators you would need to then say that means they are all loosing their minds! But that would be silly, and you know it would destroy your argument so you ignore the fact that all characters are unreliable narrators. You'll admit a few female ones are though! 

And you sound like one of those people who have to invent some convoluted and impossible theory because like R+L=J is too obvious man.  You honestly think GRRM is trolling his fans? Nah, mate. I respect the author more than that I respect his artistic integrity. Trying not to be predictable is not the same as out and out misleading his fans. Which is what you are suggesting he does. 

Besides which if you had spent any time actually looking at the text and analysing it in connection to SanSan you would understand that one does not invest that level of multi layered story weaving into something which you do not intend to have happen. There are red herrings(fishermans daughter, Ashara Dayne.) and then there is the entire Scottish and North coast herring fleet's catch of the 1940's( The tremendous weight of text foreshadowing Sansan.)  being loaded into a story.  

In all honesty if I were you I'd have been embarrassed to come back to this thread after Blue-Eyed Wolfs post you've certainly got some brass.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Thanks.  I was also going to say if Sansa was coping with trauma and using a false memory to do so, we'd have to keep in mind there are other triggers beyond her control that pop up now and then.  If George has done his homework, then we should see her having some sign of discomfort or panic when something spawns a supposed unwanted and intrusive thought. 

There's the old blind dog on the Fingers that lays with her in bed.  Literally a dog in her bed.  People let dogs sleep with them in bed so they can be comforted by their presence.  She wouldn't be bonding and cuddling with it.  She'd probably be kicking it out of the room and want nothing to do with it.  Especially after Marillion had tried to assault her in her bed, before Lothor Brune saved her and she mistook him for Sandor.  If she was ever going to be triggered to a painful flashback of that night, this should be the moment. 

That's totally not what happens.  It's not a dream about the Blackwater.  It's a dream about her marriage bed.  It can't be the Blackwater scene she's reliving, because Tyrion is in it and her marriage to him doesn't happen until much later.  She specifically calls it her wedding night.  

It starts out like a nightmare with Joffrey and Robb.  Then it segways into the wedding night and Tyrion.  Yes, Sansa was terrified that night.  Unpleasant though it was, nothing ultimately traumatizing happened in the end there either.  She had Tyrion's word that they would only have sex if she consented.  But Tyrion gets transformed immediately into the guy she has designated her protector and it turns erotic.  "I wish that you were Lady" is a pretty lackluster sign of repulsion if the dream truly ended as a nightmare.  But what about those who keep insisting that it is?  Oh George, why couldn't you have given us a clearer sign with this "nightmare" so we can put this stupid argument to bed!?!  Oh wait, he does:

Oh look.  A nightmare of the wedding night where Joffrey turns into Ilyn Payne.  She wakes up visibly shaken by it.  It's almost as if he included a parallel wedding night dream and Sansa's reaction to it for us to compare it with.    

All the dream says to me is that she rejects his worst trait, but not him.  She wishes he was her wolf and not a tormented mad dog.  It looks to me like her mind replaced her real nightmares with a comforting one that is also conflated with sex as is very human thing to do.   

@Lady Dacey  Yup, thanks for bringing that up.  By including Tyrion, she's not misremembering what happened on her wedding night.  Her memory is just fine and that was clearly unpleasant with the ambushed forced marriage, the reception with Joffrey's threats of rape, and the wedding night itself.  Why not make up a new memory to cope with a clearly very bad day when she thought she might be raped?  It was way more sexually explicit than the Blackwater where nothing sexual actually happened.  This an active conscious thought on her part to include Sandor in the marriage bed and associate him with sex, not a misremembering what happened on her wedding night.  By choosing to place him in a bed he was never in, her feelings have definitely been processed and she's actively fantasizing.               

 

 

Absolutely agree, things which trigger your PTSD pop up without your control and you have to try very hard to cope. I am triggered if I see men who remind me of my father when I am out and about. And I have to breath through it, and use certain techniques to cope.   Having PTSD is no walk in the park! And Sansa really doesn't read like a person with it. Where as Sandor does which shows GRRM did do his homework. 

And once again you and Lady Dacey too have explained how the UnKiss is illustrative not of her being mentally unstable but of her having strong if subconscious sexual feelings and deep affection for the Hound. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

But he will end up as not only a knight, but Sansa’s sworn shield.

You know who else had a sworn shield? Rhaenyra Targaryen but Oh, Yes that's right she was fucking him. 

BTW the wolves are not just some platonic companion, in case you missed the subtle clues; I've noticed that you are not very good at picking up subtext. So I shall kindly explain. They are a symbiotic and deeply intimate part of who each of the Starks are literally bonding mentally and physically with them. 

 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well you're not very good at making your point then, because that is not what it seemed like you were saying at all. I also highly doubt that he mistakenly said Sansa, indeed I have never indicated that at all. You do realise that you have quite a bad habit of speaking to me about things that you assume I feel or think which I have not said at all?

So now you are claiming that both the girls are mentally unhinged? Boy you sure do like that crazy females trope don't you. I honestly laughed when I read this bit.  I just can't even........  

Thank you for FINALLY linking the quote but I notice you don't say "here is the quote sorry I was using it without having introduced it previously and behaving in a way which was frankly rude as fuck." Oh you still are being. 

I howether shall not only provide the entire quote in it's context but I shall also sight it's source. Because I am a polite person who believes in intelligent respectful discussion. 

This quote is from an interview with GRRM in Entertainment Weekly an American TV magazine. Which if you are not an american you may not have been aware existed. So I shall helpfully explain what it is and where it comes from. 

 OK So I've been a good little girl and I have pondered the question as I was told to. And my conclusion is this. He has pointed out that the second scene is from her thoughts, so it isn't the actual events, but rather her memory of them. I note that you left this part of the quote out when you were using it out of context earlier btw. It is not the done thing to do in case you were unaware. It rather implies that a person is attempting to misconstrue a quote in order to bolster their own personal view.  

So in light of Blue-Eyed Wolf's rather wonderful and thorough analysis which you so very rudely have ignored I shall simply say that I agree with her, she has explained beautifully exactly what that says about Sansa Psychologically. And it isn't that she's is trying to stop her entire psyche from cracking by creating ever increasing false memories. 

Oh, you do make me laugh, I think you are quite possibly the first person ever to accuse me of being unwilling to talk about Sansa. LMAO. The point is and I'll explain it again. That by refusing to acknowledge that there are multiple unreliable narrators you are trying to imply that being an unreliable narrator is indicative of her unstable mind. Because if you had to admit that all characters are unreliable narrators you would need to then say that means they are all loosing their minds! But that would be silly, and you know it would destroy your argument so you ignore the fact that all characters are unreliable narrators. You'll admit a few female ones are though! 

And you sound like one of those people who have to invent some convoluted and impossible theory because like R+L=J is too obvious man.  You honestly think GRRM is trolling his fans? Nah, mate. I respect the author more than that I respect his artistic integrity. Trying not to be predictable is not the same as out and out misleading his fans. Which is what you are suggesting he does. 

Besides which if you had spent any time actually looking at the text and analysing it in connection to SanSan you would understand that one does not invest that level of multi layered story weaving into something which you do not intend to have happen. There are red herrings(fishermans daughter, Ashara Dayne.) and then there is the entire Scottish and North coast herring fleet's catch of the 1940's( The tremendous weight of text foreshadowing Sansan.)  being loaded into a story.  

In all honesty if I were you I'd have been embarrassed to come back to this thread after Blue-Eyed Wolfs post you've certainly got some brass.

"In all honesty if I were you I'd have been embarrassed to come back to this thread after Blue-Eyed Wolfs post you've certainly got some brass."

 

• Don't make me laugh. You SanSan fans do love gassing yourselves up

I have already gone back and forth with SanSan shippers and their theories in previous posts and neither of their speculations/theories/or analyzations have yet to change my mind. There are thousands of well put together analyzations out there, many contradict each other, and despite how well put together they are, not all of them are correct. The same goes for the analyzation that you refer to.

I will keep it polite and say, I have yet to see a SanSan analyzation that will change my mind.

And I can assure you that nothing that you or any SanSan shipper write will change my mind. 

And the fact that you think that pointing out the likelihood of mental trauma in children that have lived through the murder of their family, upheaval, abuse, and emotional agony equals having an "obsession with crazy female troupe" or whatever you called it , . . I couldn't see properly through all the eye rolling, but LMAO.

•It's good to see that you SanSan fans are still stuck in your romantic fluff. Anyway, I can't wait for the books to finish when we find out that there isn't any SanSan romance. And George takes time to address the mental trauma that the girls are dealing with. Because he's a complex writer who actually addresses realistic consequences that trauma has on developing minds. Lol. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't have anything further to say.

You really have made it quite clear that the author could write a detailed sex scene happening in real time on page and you would still be convinced that it isn't happening.   

But I am well mannered enough to feel the need to acknowledge I've seen your post, rather than simply ignore you. 

I guess we shall see who is correct when the books are done. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

9 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

None of these imply romance. Lady did not represent a romantic figure in Sansa’ life; and a replacement/stand in for her will not be one.

 

Lady was Sansa’s platonic companion, friend, and protector. Which is what all the direwolves are for the Starks they are partnered with.

Quote

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

I believe this was what @The Weirwoods Eyes was referring to.  The bond between wolf and warg is described as a marriage.  A spiritual partnership.  I don't think I have to describe further the imagery of warging and being inside your spiritual partner.  Before I get accused of claiming there's literal skin changing between Sansa and Sandor (I'm not), I'm pointing out that Haggon's metaphor means this is more than just protector/pet relationship.  Sansa doesn't want a dog (a domesticated servant), she wants her spiritual partner (her equal, her packmate).  And George includes juxtapositions of dogs and wolves all over the place.  They are related and can mate. 

Quote

 

CONCERNING DIREWOLVES

Question: Can direwolves and regular wolves mate and breed viable offspring?

Presumably. Wolves and dogs can interbreed, after all. So can chihuahuas and Great Danes.

 

He calls "taking" a wolf to mean warging, but "taking" a woman means something else and both = a marriage.  

Quote

"I've never seen an aurochs," Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen.
Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. "A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table," she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread.
"She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want."

The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya." She scowled.

When it comes to her spiritual partner, Sansa is as "willful" or wolf-blooded as her sister and she doesn't give a fig what anyone thinks.  And why can't he be both a protector and lover?  I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive.  I guess Sansa doesn't eroticize knights or imagine being wed to them?

Quote

Wed to Ser Loras, oh . . . Sansa's breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.
"OH, I'M A MAID, AND I'M PURE AND FAIR! I'LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR! A BEAR! A BEAR! I'LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR!"

Nevermind that Loras is also a third son without land of his own and would never be an appropriate match on paper... funny how she doesn't consider that when it comes to her desires.  After all the times we hear her talking about status and marriageability, at the end of it she just wants who she wants and all those other considerations go out the window.

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

 Don't make me laugh. You SanSan fans do love gassing yourselves up

I have already gone back and forth with SanSan shippers and their theories in previous posts and neither of their speculations/theories/or analyzations have yet to change my mind. There are thousands of well put together analyzations out there, many contradict each other, and despite how well put together they are, not all of them are correct. The same goes for the analyzation that you refer to.

I will keep it polite and say, I have yet to see a SanSan analyzation that will change my mind.

And I can assure you that nothing that you or any SanSan shipper write will change my mind.

Try and guess how many fucks I give about being accused of shipping?  Nice try using the ad hominem shipper accusation as an automatic trump card for your argument.  I ship canon ships.  Sansa ships it.  George ships it.  So I ship it and I never would if I honestly thought the evidence weighed in favor of her being traumatized by him.  By the way, there's plenty of analysis out there by people who don't ship anything that agree Sansan is canon.  Do they have validity then because they aren't tainted with the "shipper" label?  And all shippers have to 100% agree on every detail or their basic premise is invalid?  Are you sure that's not setting a different goalpost of evidence for the shippers that you wouldn't demand of a non-shipper?  Because all anyone can do to back up their opinions is offer textual evidence and that's what the strength of anyone's argument should be based on.  And yet you do not point out what you find to be incorrect about my walk through of events specifically.  Even if I don't agree with someone's opinion, I don't handwave their opinions away based on them being a "whatever shipper" or an "anti-".  I'll agree or disagree with their actual argument based on their textual evidence presented.  But by all means, handwave the shippers away for being shippers.  It's transparently revealing.  

It's fine by the way if you or anyone disapproves of Sansan or if you think what Sandor did was unforgivable.  That's not out of whack to feel that way.  What he did was wrong.  I don't sugar coat the actual Blackwater, but I don't blow it up to being PTSD inducing.  Seriously, why even give Sandor another thought if he's just another person she trusted that betrayed her?  She's been there and done that.  Why not replace him in her thoughts with someone like Arys Oakheart who by her own words is "dashing,", has always been polite to her, and even protested on her behalf once?  On paper he seems like the natural choice to be the gallant, courteous knight to chase away her nightmares.  The better kingsguard that conforms to her ideas of what's good.  

Quote

Arys Oakheart was courteous, and would talk to her cordially. Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. The others obeyed without question . . . except for the Hound, but Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that.

Ser Arys had light brown hair and a face that was not unpleasant to look upon. Today he made quite the dashing figure, with his white silk cloak fastened at the shoulder by a golden leaf, and a spreading oak tree worked upon the breast of his tunic in shining gold thread.

Or why not her crush Ser Loras that she clearly eroticizes?  Make him the salve to cover up those unpleasant memories.  No one has been able to explain why Sandor of all her abusers to create a mis-memory around if the unkiss is a trauma coping mechanism?  It's not like she was really falling for him before or even thought he was a great guy.  He's not nice, gallant or dashing.  Anything traumatic wouldn't be a betrayal, but a confirmation that he's just a savage dog.   

• Joffrey has had her beaten, publically stripped, humiliated, groped her, unequivocally threatened to rape her and kill her repeatedly.  She once trusted wholeheartedly in his goodness and his word, so this seems like a way worse betrayal.  Same with Cersei. 
• Pycelle molested her while Cersei's maids held her down and she was naked.   
• Tyrion ordered her to take her clothes off while she's utterly terrified, made her look at his erection, and he groped her breast.  At least he relented and promised he would never force her.
• Dontos regularly tries to force kisses on her and lies to her, taking liberties with his role as her "rescuer."
• Marillion tried to rape her and continued to harass her with unwanted attention.
• Littlefinger creeps on her, has made her sit on his lip, forced kisses on her, touched her breast, manipulated her into compliance with his crimes, is going to pimp her out to serve his needs, etc, etc, etc...  Again, taking liberties with his role as her "savior."

All of these things have crossed lines Sandor never crossed, even when he was at his worst.  The latter is far worse and more insidious than anything else she's experienced.  It's classic sexual abuse grooming.  While being pressured to lie for the man she thinks saved her life repeatedly, she's had to always stuff down her feelings of guilt and shame.  If any PTSD symptoms are likely to arise from a series of events, it's from what LF has put her through.  She's never been allowed or allowed herself to fully process the horror of Lysa's murder, where she was almost murdered too with the help of her attempted rapist.  She can't even look at the Moon Door without being triggered.  Marillion's singing torments her.  Again, there's no such triggered discomfort or anxiety surrounding cloaks or dogs.  This memory persists over a long period of time and separation from him.  It endures but never seems to be triggered by any other sexual threat.  It's triggered by girls talking about kissing and a little boy's clumsy kiss.  Littlefinger's forced kisses?  Nope.  So...  why not make up mis-memories of any one of these objectively horrible events and abuses?  If that is her go-to coping strategy, why does it only happen surrounding Sandor?  Did he touch her sexually?  No.  Did he rip her clothes? No.  Did he actually force anything sexual on her?  No.  I won't defend anything he actually did, but I don't think Sansa is wrong for seeing her way past it to forgive him.  That's just who she is.  Once she knows someone's tragic backstory she can be very understanding even when they lash out at her.  THis is not good to be so forgiving if him in the long term though.  Sandor's PTSD has to be addressed and his excessive macho posturing and lashing out have to be curbed for a romantic relationship to even be possible.  He knows he fucked up big time.  Judging by the humble, quiet service of the gravedigger (he also serves food and clears the table as one of his jobs), Sandor is learning a lot about patience, humility, respect, and self-control.  I think George is depicting a problematic relationship, not a fluffy one, but one that doesn't have insurmountable issues on either side.  One that he's written the means of both Sansa and Sandor overcoming their issues separately, but paralleling each other.     

I think it's kind of funny too that you're saying a man who did this awful thing to her that was so bad it warped her memory, is meant to be her sworn shield and protector.   Why the hell should he ever be allowed within a hundred yards of her again if he is the source of a major traumatic event?  Why should he ever deserve to have a position of trust with her again after costing her a huge chunk of her mental well-being?  He swore he'd keep her safe then held a knife to her throat and threatened her.  I think that would be a pretty big deal breaker for applying for the position of her sworn shield.

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

The Hound being foreshadowed to replace what she lost in Lady: a protector, a friend, and a platonic companion; does not indicate them ending up a romantic item. What it does foreshadow, is Sandor eventually becoming a knight. Sansa’s own personal knight/sworn sword.

Unless you are saying the bad thing wasn't actually that bad in the end to justify him being her personal knight and sworn sword?  That she isn't so traumatized by him after all?  That he deserves a second chance for her to trust him like she trusted Lady?  Because I can't buy that she's both mentally damaged by him to the degree you claim and that she can or should accept him being close to her and entrusting her safety to him.  But hey, thanks for supporting what the Sansans have always said, that she isn't really traumatized by him.  

Seriously, why are there only two choices in how Sansa has dealt with abuse and trauma in her life?  Completely fine or mentally unhinged?She's not "fine."  She's definitely been affected by her experiences.  She was suicidal after her father's death, which Sandor was the only one to pick up on btw.  She's internalized the abusive language of Joffrey and Cersei, who repeatedly call her stupid.  Her self-esteem has been shredded.  She's been manipulated into having conflicting feelings about Littlefinger which is part and parcel to sexual abuse grooming.  But I don't think she's permanently or long term psychologically unhinged from them either.  I think the truth is more like, she's been affected and changed by experience, but she's also pretty resilient in many ways too.  Even if she can only keep her affirmations of her Stark identity and true thoughts hidden in her mind. 

 

[ravenous reader]

On 12/15/2017 at 0:14 PM, Houseofthedirewolves said:

The Unkiss is not the climax of her memory lapses, but it WILL lead to the climax by causing a bigger incident

I agree with this.  The romantic and the 'mental state' implications of the 'Unkiss' mentioned in the discussion above are not mutually exclusive.  Perhaps the 'climax' (nice double entendre...) will be a romantic tragedy for which there happens to be literary precedent in John Forster's classic modern novel 'A Passage to India,' in which a woman unfairly accuses a man of a rape.  Similarly, I imagine Sandor might one day be publicly accused of kissing, or even raping, Sansa for which there might be adverse consequences in store for him.

On 12/16/2017 at 8:09 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thinks the Hound did kiss her when she was drunk and he almost did; A bit odd but given that it is a fantasy and she is a teenager and she was drunk at the time doesn't seem a huge indicator that she's loosing her grip on reality tbh. 

Is working very hard to conceal her identity and the truth about her Aunt's murder and tells herself she almost believes the lie herself now. Yeah that's normal mate. That's a real thing that we can all do if we try hard enough. It's a foundation of certain acting techniques and is how good liers manage to be so convincing. But you DO know the truth inside and Sansa shows this in her POV. 

So what is your evidence that any of this is worrying, and will snowball?

Let's give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and assume that she does indeed, as you suggest, 'know the truth inside', even though this is belied by her outward actions and words much of the time.  I don't think anyone is contesting Sansa's 'mental state' here; she is not psychotic by any means.  What is, however, worrying is that even when given the chance to set the record straight, even in an environment in which telling the truth would not threaten her physical integrity, she still fails to be honest about the facts.  A case in point would be the occasion when she is alone with Arya in the privacy of the chambers of the Hand and still cannot bring herself to admit that Mycah was the victim, not the aggressor, in the Trident scenario.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

The Tower of the Hand seemed so empty after they left that Sansa was even pleased to see Arya when she went down to break her fast. "Where is everyone?" her sister wanted to know as she ripped the skin from a blood orange. "Did Father send them to hunt down Jaime Lannister?"

Sansa sighed. "They rode with Lord Beric, to behead Ser Gregor Clegane." She turned to Septa Mordane, who was eating porridge with a wooden spoon. "Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor's head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?" She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night.

The septa was horror-struck. "A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you've been near as bad as your sister."

"What did Gregor do?" Arya asked.

"He burned down a holdfast and murdered a lot of people, women and children too."

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

You will no doubt counter saying that she 'had no other choice' but to suppress the truth, as her wellbeing and security was riding on the success of the lie.  Her self-preservation notwithstanding, it's notable that Sansa clings to the lie, even when she's in a safe space in which admitting the truth would not harm her.  Were that the end of the story, it would not matter; however, Sansa's lies hurt other people.

[Wild Bill]

15 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"In all honesty if I were you I'd have been embarrassed to come back to this thread after Blue-Eyed Wolfs post you've certainly got some brass."

 

• Don't make me laugh. You SanSan fans do love gassing yourselves up

I have already gone back and forth with SanSan shippers and their theories in previous posts and neither of their speculations/theories/or analyzations have yet to change my mind. There are thousands of well put together analyzations out there, many contradict each other, and despite how well put together they are, not all of them are correct. The same goes for the analyzation that you refer to.

I will keep it polite and say, I have yet to see a SanSan analyzation that will change my mind.

And I can assure you that nothing that you or any SanSan shipper write will change my mind. 

And the fact that you think that pointing out the likelihood of mental trauma in children that have lived through the murder of their family, upheaval, abuse, and emotional agony equals having an "obsession with crazy female troupe" or whatever you called it , . . I couldn't see properly through all the eye rolling, but LMAO.

•It's good to see that you SanSan fans are still stuck in your romantic fluff. Anyway, I can't wait for the books to finish when we find out that there isn't any SanSan romance. And George takes time to address the mental trauma that the girls are dealing with. Because he's a complex writer who actually addresses realistic consequences that trauma has on developing minds. Lol. 

Actually, I like this post. 

It's the only post of yours that doesn't have all kinds of crazy different fonts and styles and such. It's the only post that I could actually read and make sense of (so to speak, sort of, kind of, maybe)... But, the bolded bits are? Arguments where you are agreeing that these things are significant bits that might effect someone throughout their life but doesn't matter anyway (SanSan I suppose...) Or are some kind of negation of something or other and are compelling against whatever (anti SanSan I suppose)... So, while I appreciate a rather clean visual style in the post, I have a little problem with the content. Please forgive the sarcasm, or whatever...

BTW, If you want to talk about shipping, I'll ship Blue-Eyed Wolf and The Weirwoods Eyes very happily.

edit: oopsie, I missed where the next paragraph after the bolded bits is contradictory to those bits...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and assume that she does indeed, as you suggest, 'know the truth inside', even though this is belied by her outward actions and words much of the time.  I don't think anyone is contesting Sansa's 'mental state' here; she is not psychotic by any means.  What is, however, worrying is that even when given the chance to set the record straight, even in an environment in which telling the truth would not threaten her physical integrity, she still fails to be honest about the facts.  A case in point would be the occasion when she is alone with Arya in the privacy of the chambers of the Hand and still cannot bring herself to admit that Mycah was the victim, not the aggressor, in the Trident scenario.

Hmm, well given that the previous poster; Houseofthedirewolves spent rather a long time trying to insist that Sansa is mentally deranged I'd disagree. But OK, they were using an awful lot of hyperbole so perhaps they just meant she's not actually crazy. ? I dunno. New posters are often hard to read. 

TBH given their post in the worst theories thread it might be the case that the true issue is with the people who are fans of SanSan and not with the actual theory. And that given their habit of making massive unfounded assumptions about the thoughts, feelings, and motivations of said fans that the issue is more, ahem. Internal.  I have, given the tremendous amount of rudeness and nonsensical argument decided that it may be best to assume trolling.  

The thing with the scene between Arya & Sansa is that it is a scene between two siblings who are children. Sansa is furious with Arya, blames her for Lady's death, blames her for spoiling everything as she puts it. And Arya is fuming with Sansa because Mycah died, and Nymeria had to be ran off. Both girls are blaming the other for things out of their control. Arya can no more prevent Cersei from insisting Lady is killed than she could Joffrey's psychotic (that's a correct labelling f a character as opposed to a ridiculous unwarranted one.) outburst. And Sansa could not prevent the Hound from killing Mycah not could she prevent Cersei insisting on having Nymeria's pelt, thus necessitating running her off.  Now to be fair Sansa has got a true reason to be pissed off given her innocent wolf had to die, and Nymeria though separated from Arya is alive. But this is ultimately a childish spat, both should work through their emotions and look at the situation logically and conclude neither truly meant to hurt the other and the fault laid with Joffrey and the adults who used the situation to play power games with each other. But at 9 & 11 that wasn't going to happen. So instead we get the stubborn and realistic portrayal of two sisters determined to blame each other. Mycah being blamed is a part of that. He was there because of Arya therefore his part in it is her fault in Sansa's mind. If Arya had not been acting inappropriately he'd never have been there. He can be scapegoated because he's dead and Sansa doesn't have to acknowledge Joffrey's bad behaviour.  The speech Ned gives Arya after highlights the situation. They need to stick by one-another not fight. This isn't about Sansa being exceptionally duplicitous. She's 11 years old and she wants to be right my kids are the same sorts of ages and believe me they'd swear black was white if it meant getting one over each other in arguments. That is normal sibling behaviour for this age group. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You will no doubt counter saying that she 'had no other choice' but to suppress the truth, as her wellbeing and security was riding on the success of the lie.  Her self-preservation notwithstanding, it's notable that Sansa clings to the lie, even when she's in a safe space in which admitting the truth would not harm her.  Were that the end of the story, it would not matter; however, Sansa's lies hurt other people.

Cont; She isn't lying to preserve her well being here, she's just being vile to her little sister who she is angry with Likewise Arya is being vile to her big sister who she is angry with.  She lied at the trial to preserve her wellbeing and security. That was to maintain a good relationship with her new family. To ensure the success of her marriage. She claimed at the trial that she didn't see,  not that Mycah attacked Joffrey. This is simply about being nasty to Arya. 

Quote

They were not the only ones present," Ned said. "Sansa, come here." Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. "Tell us what happened."

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see …"

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."

Arya, stop it!" Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. "Are you hurt?" he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear.

"The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."

"Seven hells," Robert swore. "Cersei, look at her. She's a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It's over. No lasting harm was done."

Here we can see Sansa never mentioned Mycah at the trial. She's just being nasty to her little sister, as Arya is being nasty to her, and again I reiterate this is NORMAL sibling behaviour for their age group. Gosh if I had a pound for every time I told my sister I hated her growing up! 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Cont; She isn't lying to preserve her well being here, she's just being vile to her little sister who she is angry with Likewise Arya is being vile to her big sister who she is angry with.  She lied at the trial to preserve her wellbeing and security. That was to maintain a good relationship with her new family. To ensure the success of her marriage. She claimed at the trial that she didn't see,  not that Mycah attacked Joffrey. This is simply about being nasty to Arya. 

Here we can see Sansa never mentioned Mycah at the trial. She's just being nasty to her little sister, as Arya is being nasty to her, and again I reiterate this is NORMAL sibling behaviour for their age group. Gosh if I had a pound for every time I told my sister I hated her growing up! 

I agree, plus what Sansa's giving here is the official line, the diplomatic lie that allows the royal family and the Starks to paper over the cracks and be 'friends' again. This is the story that the Hound was told:

Quote

"Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?" Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.

"I head it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes." Clegane jerked his hands towards Arya. "This one's own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert."

"Sansa's just a liar," Arya said, furious at her sister all over again. "It wasn't like she said. It wasn't."

ASOS - ARYA VI

This public lie must have been horrible for Arya to live with, and it was bitterly cruel of Sansa to throw it at her; but as @The Weirwoods Eyes says, sibling fights can be no-holds-barred nasty. Kids grow out of it. (Incidentally, this is another instance of Arya misremembering - Sansa did not tell 'the same tale' when she stood before Robert. The lie came from Joffrey.)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

And don't forget whilst GRRM may not be a Dad, he does have siblings! He Anyone who has can see their own experiences in the stories told of by the Starks about their childhoods and in these exchanges between the sisters too.

I might  record my 10 and 8 year old who are turning 9 & 11 each within the next two months.Next time they are fighting to illustrate the point a bit more. lol They'd even be in a thick North Yorkshire accent so you could all close your eyes and imagine the Stark kids.  

[Springwatch]

22 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

•It's good to see that you SanSan fans are still stuck in your romantic fluff. Anyway, I can't wait for the books to finish when we find out that there isn't any SanSan romance. And George takes time to address the mental trauma that the girls are dealing with. Because he's a complex writer who actually addresses realistic consequences that trauma has on developing minds. Lol. 

You seem to have very strange ideas about who you're talking to, but you got one thing right - the books will sort it out. I can't wait either...

I'm not expecting the books to major on psychology at any point. GRRM has a gift for creating three-dimensional characters, but he never lets realism get in the way of his story-telling, and this is a story of heroes. Damaged heroes, perhaps, but destiny calls, and no-one has time to hang around nursing their neuroses. (This is not to make light of mental illness, just that this is not the kind of book to deal with mental illness.)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You seem to have very strange ideas about who you're talking to, but you got one thing right - the books will sort it out. I can't wait either...

I'm not expecting the books to major on psychology at any point. GRRM has a gift for creating three-dimensional characters, but he never lets realism get in the way of his story-telling, and this is a story of heroes. Damaged heroes, perhaps, but destiny calls, and no-one has time to hang around nursing their neuroses. (This is not to make light of mental illness, just that this is not the kind of book to deal with mental illness.)

I agree, and hey I'm quite open about the fact I have PTSD. My family has a LONG and varied history of mental illness too, some really severe; I have a brother with schizophrenia. Some debilitating but socially considered not so bad; husband with Generalised Anxiety Disorder, Two out of my three kids are special needs. My father was basically a sociopath; no I'm not using hyperbole he really was why do you think I have PTSD lol. And believe me your post is in no way offensive or making light of mental health issues. On the other hand people who decide with fuck all understanding or decent indication that characters are suffering mental illness really get on my tits.   There are indeed a few characters in ASOIAF who can quite plausibly be described as having certain conditions. But Sansa ain't one of them.  Indeed this is a fantasy story people are mostly just hanging around waiting to save the world.  

[Springwatch]

Hi @The Weirwoods Eyes, and thanks for understanding what I'm clumsily trying to say. There are authors out there who can give you an insight into human psychology (which has its own heroics, heaven knows) - but what GRRM will continue do is glide over the surface of the topic, treating it lightly, taking just a few well-chosen sentences to sketch out hidden depths. And he's got to fit it in with the thousand and one other things he's got to write in the next two books. I think it's cleverly done.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Hi @The Weirwoods Eyes, and thanks for understanding what I'm clumsily trying to say. There are authors out there who can give you an insight into human psychology (which has its own heroics, heaven knows) - but what GRRM will continue do is glide over the surface of the topic, treating it lightly, taking just a few well-chosen sentences to sketch out hidden depths. And he's got to fit it in with the thousand and one other things he's got to write in the next two books. I think it's cleverly done.

Totally agree.