Corvo the Crow

Rhaella's Death

67 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Daenerys "Stillborn" Targaryen? Doesn't have the same ring to it as "Stormborn" does.

@Dorian Martell's son is right. The longer it takes for the next books to come out the more baby swap, and other out there theories will be made.

I am sure there is some mathematical formulae that can be used to describe the relationship between the half a decade between books and the increasing amount of baseless crackpot we see 

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36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

While she isn't as old, Lysa had difficulties too and yet we see her having a child in the end, however sickly he is. Unlike Lysa, Rhaella had two children living past infancy at the time, one an adult at that and we see the other one surviving into adulthood as well, which is not something guaranteed for Robin.

Sure, but the odds aren't good.

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We have a 40 something woman (Rhaella) with long history of miscarriages and whose last successful birth was 8 years ago (Viserys) who suddenly - literally on the very last occasion she has sex successfully conceives and supposedly gives birth to a healthy daughter.

For some reason GRRM has removed every supposed witness for the pregnancy and birth. We don't have a single one left except Viserys, who dies early in the story too. And we definitely know Rhaella was not visibly pregnant when she left KL.

Ashara Dayne is supposed to have thrown herself off a tower yet a body was never found. She is said to have had a stillborn girl - yet we get told no name and no father. GRRM for some reason chooses to keep all this a mystery.

Dany's memories and what Viserys has told her about her travels do not add up.

Now it is of course possible that GRRM added these mysteries for no deeper reason, just as flavour for lack of a better word. And if you buy into the official party line about Dany you have every right to do so. You may very well be right.

However this does not change the fact that GRRM has added these mysteries. And that readers have every right to speculate about them, try to make sense of them and talk about them on this forum.

 

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I can't say that I have ever got the sense that Daenerys was anything other than Aerys and Rhaella's child.

Even if you wanted to argue she was someone else's baby and the real Daenerys died or was swapped out for another baby -- why? How would that add to the story in reality? Many of these theories either take away from her Targaryen heritage by having her be Ashara Dayne's daughter, based on nothing but a throwaway line from Selmy, or they are desperate to make her that Baby in the Tower because they want Rhaegar to be her father... for some reason. :dunno:

At least when people theorise Jon was the Baby in the Tower, it is because the question of "who was Jon's mother?" has been posed and mysteriously left unanswered with nothing but two or three conflicting suggestions. The question of who Daenerys's parents were is never truly questioned in any meaningful way or was it anything I ever really thought about.

I have always felt the true struggle with Daenerys was finding a way to define herself that isn't just mad Aerys's daughter while also keeping in touch with her Targaryen roots. Meeting expectations while also desperately not falling into the same traps as her father or brother, trying to emulate their better qualities while also avoiding their flaws etc. I really don't think about babyswaps and (f)Targaryen conspiracies when it comes to her birth. I really don't see the point. If such a thing happens in the books-proper, it had better have a narrative purpose or answers a question -- not make me wonder what the point of the revelation was. 
 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It seems to me you're being incredibly disingenuous sensitive about this. No one is being put "on a cross", come on. But if you want to present an idea/theory, you should be able to back up what you're proposing w/ book quotes. I'm sorry, but coming up w/ a bunch of ideas, some of them quite mental, and expecting people to buy it all or engage in serious debate is kind of silly. And then to play the victim saying you're being "attacked" and "put on a cross"? Please. :rolleyes:

 

I'll drink to that! :cheers:
 

7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Evidence is all I'm asking for. Not a bunch of unrelated quotes with the same word bolded, leading to a shiny shiny thesis.

Or quotes where you really have to squint and tilt your head to even wrap it around the interpretation the theory relies on it for.
 

41 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, Mance, Euron and Benjen are literally everyone else in the novels 

And every day is "Opposite Day" in ASoIaF!

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42 minutes ago, Faera said:

And every day is "Opposite Day" in ASoIaF!

The best is when people try to claim that Euron is secretly in slaver's bay messing with Dany. Invariably the nerd suggesting it says  "I've done the math, IT'S TOTALLY POSSIBLE!!!!!!1!!!!!11!!!!!ONE!!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!!!!!"

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9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

People have different ideas and are here to discuss those ideas or theories. They should be allowed to do this with out being attacked and told that every thing they say is wrong and that the person correcting them is right. In some cases with quotes, this is right. More often or not though, things come down to interpretation of certain quotes or what they are trying to tell us. 

 

My main issue isn't necessarily people's interpretation of quotes - it's the number of misquotes that are considered canon. So if I seem like a party pooper ruining all the fun with facts and actual words from the books - well, I can live with that.

And as I've said before, my other major beef is with theories that start at a point where everything else must be a lie or George is misdirecting us. You're not the first person to come along with all these "fresh" ideas, and wonder why people don't want to play along, when we've seen them and argued them (and often debunked them) a hundred times already.

So if you want to prove (for example) that Rhaegar had a thing with Ashara, don't use a bunch of unrelated quotes by characters who never met either to make your argument - that's not how these things work. George is not writing some cryptic whodunnit. Show me something that hints that Rhaegar was interested in Ashara, or vice versa. But there isn't, so you can't.

Also, as an aside, you might want to look up the meaning of "sic" because it's not the same as "snip".

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20 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The best is when people try to claim that Euron is secretly in slaver's bay messing with Dany. Invariably the nerd suggesting it says  "I've done the math, IT'S TOTALLY POSSIBLE!!!!!!1!!!!!11!!!!!ONE!!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!!!!!"

Is that the Daario Naharis = Euron Crow's Eye theory? Not going to lie, that one did give me pause. If it were not for the fact that it would require Euron sail half-way across the world in absolute secrecy even though the Silence is a dreaded sight around Essos and Daario is supposed to be running a sellsword company, I might have swallowed that one.

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3 hours ago, Amris said:

However this does not change the fact that GRRM has added these mysteries. And that readers have every right to speculate about them, try to make sense of them and talk about them on this forum.

 

Yes, I agree.  Martin has gone to some length to give Rhaella a history of unsuccessful pregnancies and it is an open question.   It's churlish to whine about it.

Edited by LynnS

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5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Oh sweet summer child. IF you have been here as long as some of us, you would have, on numerous occasions, drowned in the crackpot. People love to dig for details in things like the stone great empire of the dawn, which has literally no bearing on the story whatsoever, that was written as a myth from thousands of leagues away from the story the readers get, but somehow, people spend huge amounts of time they would otherwise spend finding love or seeing a beautiful place they have never gone to on baseless speculation that devolves into fan fic. Also, Mance, Euron and Benjen are literally everyone else in the novels   

Hahahhahah No no, i totally understand where your coming from, i just chose to ignore to ignore those people and let them ramble on their way. I definitely look at some in confusion though, but hey, what ever keeps some entertained. I think i have better things to do with my time than comment on their stuff. It takes enough time to draw up my own crack pot stories dang it lol and sorry this kind of circled around a comment of yours used haha nothing meant against you, just a general defense for the crack pot community to keep going. Simple example is like trying to figure out And Seven Times Never Kill Man or The Hero or how they connect to the 1000 worlds universe. 

So if some one wants to theories that ASOIAF is apart of that universe, they are justified to question in that way with out being told their stupid or such. 

This also kind of just went off rails when i brought up not a theory, but a series of situations that have a probability of chance. Then got slammed and told its all false and that Ashara died before Stannis sailed to Dragonstone and all this stuff that there is no quotes for to actually pinpoint. We dont know when exactly Ashara died, or when Stannis sailed to Dragonstone. The Wiki should not be trusted as much as people do. Which also doesn't actually conflict with what i said. Ashara could have been on Dragonstone, and left, before Stannis arrived. We simply dont know what happened. A lack of evidence is not evidence, sure, but neither is it proof of nothing happening either. Schrodinger's cat is dead, i dont care if the box isnt opened to prove it. You leave that cat in their for a year say, then he's dead. No need for added information to assume. A lack of information is still sufficient enough to draw a conclusion. 

Correction, i hope the most crack pot thing no body could imagine, is how the series ends. The children of the Forest and giants are off shoots of the wookies who use the force and and off shoot of the Jengshi and their is secretly a plastic pyramid underneath Winterfell with a cyber crystal :):P jk that's terrible hahah

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7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It seems to me you're being incredibly disingenuous sensitive about this. No one is being put "on a cross", come on. But if you want to present an idea/theory, you should be able to back up what you're proposing w/ book quotes. I'm sorry, but coming up w/ a bunch of ideas, some of them quite mental, and expecting people to buy it all or engage in serious debate is kind of silly. And then to play the victim saying you're being "attacked" and "put on a cross"? Please. :rolleyes:

 

I think you missed the point of what i said lol and so what, people put out crack pot ideas. That they wanna discuss with like minded people. Who are you or any one else to come along and "correct" them as you all seem to think your some kind of authority to dictate what makes a reasonable post worthy of your time to comment. And no, its not silly for them to post their ideas. Its silly that it bothers you so much. 

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think you missed the point of what i said lol and so what, people put out crack pot ideas. That they wanna discuss with like minded people. Who are you or any one else to come along and "correct" them as you all seem to think your some kind of authority to dictate what makes a reasonable post worthy of your time to comment. And no, its not silly for them to post their ideas. Its silly that it bothers you so much. 

And I am sure you missed the point of what I said. It doesn't bother me at all. And at times it can be entertaining even. I have nothing against crackpot ideas, or different ideas or whatever. My problem is when people start defending these ideas as being "possible" just b/c they aren't impossible, despite the fact that there's literally ZERO book evidence to support it. 

There are many, many theories out there that I don't subscribe to, but acknowledge their possibility. But these have been presented as theories, w/ text from the books to back them up. 

There are loads of posters who like to throw an outrageous idea out there just for the hell of it, for fun and whatnot. And that is totally cool w/ me, as long as there's no whining, like, "oh I'm being attacked b/c I had an idea people don't like". Because that's a load of bollocks and you know it. We start threads to discuss things we are interested in, and those who come join us in our threads have every right to ask for clarification, and yes, that includes quotes from the books. 

I also have a feeling, and I'm not talking about you here, just in general, that some of the more out there ideas are simply the desire some have to one day say, "I figured it out years ago! And people crucified me when I presented my theory!". :P

 

 

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Primarily because of her age and difficulties in childbirth:

 

Rhaella gave birth to Rhaegar when she was 13 or 14 at the most. At that very young age, she carried a child to term and as far as we know (well we don't, but there's nothing that says otherwise) Rhaegar was a healthy baby. And he was born in the middle of the flames.

I think whatever happened with Rhaella that she had so much difficulty carrying babies to term or having all these stillbirths when she had no trouble at all the first time around may have something to do with what happened at Summerhall. Barristan says there was sorcery that night. 

I just feel like Rhaella and Dany are in the same boat, what with MMD performing her blood magic and Dany being taken into the tent when she goes into labor.

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22 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Rhaella gave birth to Rhaegar when she was 13 or 14 at the most. At that very young age, she carried a child to term and as far as we know (well we don't, but there's nothing that says otherwise) Rhaegar was a healthy baby. And he was born in the middle of the flames.

I think whatever happened with Rhaella that she had so much difficulty carrying babies to term or having all these stillbirths when she had no trouble at all the first time around may have something to do with what happened at Summerhall. Barristan says there was sorcery that night. 

I just feel like Rhaella and Dany are in the same boat, what with MMD performing her blood magic and Dany being taken into the tent when she goes into labor.

Oh! Yes, that's a nice catch.  I think you're on to something there.

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The other thing to bear in mind with Rhaella is that there needed to be an explanation for why she didn’t have more children in over 20 years of marriage. Otherwise there would be a dozen sons and daughters of Aerys running around, which would somehow lessen the tragedy of Viserys and Dany being the last Targaryens - it’s not so poignant if there’s another ten of them.

So give Aerys and Rhaella a fertility problem, and those dozen Targs are no longer an issue. I like the Summerhall explanation.

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59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh! Yes, that's a nice catch.  I think you're on to something there.

That is a pretty good idea

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14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That is a pretty good idea

I think it's a great observation by Widow's Watch!  I wonder if this explains the numerous malformed Targ births as well.  Anyway, I can't discount the possibility that Rhaella was affected by sorcery at Summerhall given Dany's circumstances. 

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I think it's a great observation by Widow's Watch!  I wonder if this explains the numerous malformed Targ births as well.  Anyway, I can't discount the possibility that Rhaella was affected by sorcery at Summerhall given Dany's circumstances. 

Totally! It's definitely something i never considered and a very interesting thought :)

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Oh! Yes, that's a nice catch.  I think you're on to something there.

I think whatever happened at Summerhall contributed to the downfall of the Targaryens. Whatever sorcery there was that night, I think the weakening of the dynasty was the price the Targs paid for whatever happened. I have a back and forth with myself on whether they managed to hatch those dragon eggs or not, and I think they did. I think they hatched 4 out of the 7. Rhaella had eleven pregnancies. She miscarried 3 times (we don't know how far along she is in her pregnancies when that happens), one still birth of sex unknown, so there is the possibility this child was deformed like Rhaego or Rhaenyra's daughter.

She has seven children who are given names, 3 of them survive (Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany) and four other children (Shaena, Daeron, Aegon and Jaehaerys) die.

The dragons that hatched would have died because of the wildfire, but the magic would still have worked.

And it still leaves three eggs that may or may not have been the eggs Dany was given. Two that she names after her two brothers.

It's a working theory.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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20 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think whatever happened at Summerhall contributed to the downfall of the Targaryens. Whatever sorcery there was that night, I think the weakening of the dynasty was the price the Targs paid for whatever happened. I have a back and forth with myself on whether they managed to hatch those dragon eggs or not, and I think they did. I think they hatched 4 out of the 7. Rhaella had eleven pregnancies. She miscarried 3 times (we don't know how far along she is in her pregnancies when that happens), one still birth of sex unknown, so there is the possibility this child was deformed like Rhaego or Rhaenyra's daughter.

She has seven children who are given names, 3 of them survive (Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany) and four other children (Shaena, Daeron, Aegon and Jaehaerys) die.

The dragons that hatched would have died because of the wildfire, but the magic would still have worked.

And it still leaves three eggs that may or may not have been the eggs Dany was given. Two that she names after her two brothers.

It's a working theory.

And it's a good one too.  We know the last dragon that died was the size of a dog.  And perhaps some were killed off by the Citadel but I don't enough about it to speculate.  I do think that the black egg was Rhaegar's egg.  I'll be interested in your OP when it's ready.

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39 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Totally! It's definitely something i never considered and a very interesting thought :)

 

Yup, you never know where these conversations will lead. 

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