It's the End of the World: Climate Collapse

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Unfortunately, China has a LOT more problems than air pollution. Air pollution gets the most attention because, of course, it's the most visible, and the Communist authorities can't hide it from the international and business community for very long. But it's just the tip of a very big iceberg and their long-term problems may be unsolvable. 

Can someone post this link directly for me.

Folks, this is THE best article on China that you will ever read. Probably EVER. Sums up basically EVERYTHING. I found it 2 yrs ago by chance when doing research on something completely unrelated, you know, one link leads to another. After reading it, I printed it out and the printout came to about 50 pages. It's more of a novella than an article, really, I wish the author would expand it into a book, in the same way that "Fast Food Nation" began as a Rolling Stone article. 

Then again, I doubt this author would be welcome again in China if the authorities ever became aware of this article! Forget the stock markets. Forget the articles and books breathlessly proclaiming "end of 500 yrs of" and "Chinese Century." The "When China Rules The World"'s and "the New Silk Roads"s. (2 of my favorites in this genre.)  Not one of those publications takes into consideration the conditions and situations described in this article. I know, I read them all the time. 

 

The article is dated June 5, 2015, but I doubt the conditions and situations described in the article have changed much in 2 1/2 yrs. 

Google: "China's Communist-Capitalist Ecological Apocalypse" 

First page should have a picture of a guy wearing a mask walking under a highway overpass. This isn't the China their "Confucius Institutes" want you to see. It sure ain't Shen Yung. This is the real China today.

Right now, and probably for the next 5 yrs or so, barring some event like another 2008-9 style economic crash, China will be riding high, enjoying the best years it is ever likely to have. Our own current idiocy is not helping because it allows their government to come across as sane, rational and civilized, ...But starting in the mid 2020's their problems will start to kick in big time....

. And paradoxically, we had better pray they last as long as possible, because as the article states, China is going to end up dragging the rest of the world down along with it. Our current global civilization is too hyper-linked for it not to. But more and more fighting over a rapidly shrinking pie....

 

Anyone who thinks I'm talking out of my...well, read the article first and then get back to me. i sure found out a lot I didn't know. 

 

if you decide to read it, set aside a couple hours because it's one heck of a read. And I think this author is not lying. My town has a lot of Chinese students and a fair-sized Chinese immigrant community, and I have seen a couple of the older ones walking around wearing masks here. I've heard a couple students on the city bus explaining to native students how at home,, they don't drink the water. 

[felice]

2 hours ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

Can someone post this link directly for me.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31478-china-s-communist-capitalist-ecological-apocalypse

Well, that was depressing.

[LongRider]

Last day of 2017 and the ice cream vendor truck is doing good custom in the park with the kids playing there.  This happening in the outer Bay Area, Calif.  

It should be raining.      

[Dr. Pepper]

 

Short, lite video about Miami and how it will be underwater in many of our lifetimes.  It amazes me that development continues, and at a very rapid pace, in Miami.  One of the people he spoke with says she dubs it "pre traumatic stress syndrome", which touches on why people will ignore unpleasant truths.  In this case, it's a really unpleasant truth.  There isn't really any solution that will save Miami.  Once that's realized, all those people will need to go somewhere.  We'll be looking at a massive demographic shift throughout the state as people start moving further north to escape the rising tides. 

I'm sort of curious if arcologies are an actual thing that can actually be done and could actually work.  Surprised developers haven't gotten in on that.  

[Dr. Pepper]

In Florida, they finally start discussing the effects of climate change, but don't discuss the cause.

http://features.weather.com/us-climate-change/florida/

This article is clear to point out how staunchly conservative many of the seaside communities are and how apparent the effects of climate change is right in their front yards and yet how unwilling they might be to discuss it at all.  

I've been thinking a lot about Florida lately because on a trip home for an emergency, I stopped in to see what my parents were up to.  They are doing very well for themselves and are considering purchasing a beach house in Florida.  I mentioned sea level rising and more intense storms and they laughed me off as a conspiracy theorist.  Whatever, I don't give a fuck to be honest.  But it's definitely mind boggling to me that they want to spend their money in a place where there is clear evidence that it will be underwater in my lifetime.  

[GAROVORKIN]

5 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

In Florida, they finally start discussing the effects of climate change, but don't discuss the cause.

http://features.weather.com/us-climate-change/florida/

This article is clear to point out how staunchly conservative many of the seaside communities are and how apparent the effects of climate change is right in their front yards and yet how unwilling they might be to discuss it at all.  

I've been thinking a lot about Florida lately because on a trip home for an emergency, I stopped in to see what my parents were up to.  They are doing very well for themselves and are considering purchasing a beach house in Florida.  I mentioned sea level rising and more intense storms and they laughed me off as a conspiracy theorist.  Whatever, I don't give a fuck to be honest.  But it's definitely mind boggling to me that they want to spend their money in a place where there is clear evidence that it will be underwater in my lifetime.  

Those same property owners will start talking  about the problem when their houses start disappearing beneath  the waves . In any event , if the polar icecaps go,  there will be no Florida at all. 

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

It's funny how peoples' minds work. 2 yrs ago there was a fantastic Rolling Stone article about NYC and the dangers it faces from rising sea levels. I remember one part where it discusses how Rockaway Beach area is now a fashionable neighborhood, a hotbed of development, even after Sandy basically leveled it. People always will seek waterfront living no matter what. But sometimes even post-disaster reality doesn't register ;it's just another business opportunity. Mind-boggling.

 

I guess unless it affects you personally, sometimes unfortunately that's the only way to get people to care. By then of course it's too late. It's like the area of the Finger Lakes my grandparent's home is in, a staunchly Republican area, but from 2010-2015, when it looked as though hydro-fracking might come to the area, everyone all of a sudden became an environmentalist, with black "No Fracking Way!" signs on their lawns. It helps if  there's the prospect of your own little corner of Paradise suddenly becoming an industrial hellhole. Sometimes you have the opportunity to affect change, more often not.

 

Oh and thanks for the video. Jack Black, I've always liked him. 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:53 PM, polishgenius said:

What really grinds my gears is Elon Musk actively disparaging what could be the next step, attempts to make viable hydro-electric fuel cells and a network to support them. Also not problem free, but with scope to be much more of a solution than lithium batteries. But they're not cool enough for Musk.

There's so much I could (& should) comment on in this thread (& so many others), but this will likely be the only one I will bother with (I love the forums, but mainly only just read because so much extra time is taken up for me in wording my often overly long responses, sigh). Anyway, this so fucking much! Top Gear (& now The Grand Tour) is largely a rather mindless, guilty pleasure for me, but seven fucking hells, they were on the ball with this one. And it's nearing a decade that segment was made & aired, whilst the "push" for hydrogen cell vehicles may have even fallen, if anything, since. Because the likes of Musk - with staggering amounts of personal, political, economic, & commercial influence - clearly denigrating hydrogen at least in part because it doesn't suit their business interests.

Yes, as you say & TrueMetis tries to argue, it certainly has it's own problems, but I find it ineffable that it has been left by the wayside by limiting focus on (partial) "solutions" solely to electric vehicles (hybrids are at best, a (small) reduction of the problems in the meantime, whilst technology slowly improves). As Tesla & co's forerunners were dismissed & mocked for many decades, ensuring sfa R&D, because that sweet, cheap oil. Like with renewables for energy production in general, we should be investing in every potentially viable option we can - renewable energy is more than just solar & wind, the likes of geothermal are criminally under-utilised where they could be, imo - & hydrogen should definitely also be embraced for cars.

And on electric vehicles, there's also not much point to them (besides the lithium batteries & whatnot) if they are largely/completely charged by electricity produced from dirty fossil fuels. Not to mention, some % of the electricity (if perhaps small) being lost due to inefficiency of the power grid, especially over long distances &/or inadequate infrastructure. Idk if it's as much as a problem in the US & Europe - with far larger & denser populations (at least, overall) requiring more "developed" power grids (or perhaps, even by the same token, it's worse) - but this is something of an issue in Australia, where I live:

• One of the most power-hungry countries per-capita in the world, certainly residential, more likely than not commercially, & perhaps industrially. Overwhelmingly juiced by coal-fired power stations, some of them (very) old &/or burning dirtier brown (IIRC, we only export black & so brown coal can only be used domestically), which are generally situated well away from at least major urban centres for obvious reasons (increasing the distance from power-source to usage point though). No nuclear energy production.
• Only five cities (if including smaller, relatively close-by populaces outside of the actual, sprawling metropolitan areas of their greaters: Gold Coast, Ipswich, Newcastle, Wollongong, Geelong, etc) comprising well over half of the country's population. Melbourne & Sydney alone consist of more than a third of Australians. These can provide some rather unique circumstances in electricity demand & supply.
• Many smaller cities & towns spread across a fair whack of the continent, despite so much nigh-unpopulated vastness & wilderness besides. Electricity supply has to service vast areas, which would generally be (far) more densely populated in the US or Europe. And the infrastructure is generally satisfactory at best, (very) poor & old in other parts, because there simply isn't enough people to necessitate & fund better & more prudent repairs & improvements (which I assume would be, at least generally, superior in more higher & densely populated OECD countries).

Excessive & perhaps unnecessary points aside, it's far more optimal that electric vehicles be recharged from power produced by renewables, as close to the source as possible. Why personal solar panels are so great, but they're not always going to do the job at all & if they do, some people install battery systems (basically for their own benefits only), which of course, have their own problems with carbon footprints with production. I'll stop myself there from ranting at length about how our right-wing political parties are obsessed with coal, the enormous influence they wield even in opposition (along with that of mining companies), & the too often acquiescence of the major party on the left to their fuckery. Plus, further on the electricity system in general.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:29 AM, karaddin said:

We're not as large in terms of total emissions as others, but both in terms of per capita and as a massive coal exporter, Australia isn't exactly a beacon of light on this issue ATM so that informs how I'm seeing the issue. We're still under the government that tried to conspire with Harper in Canada to undermine our ally (Obama) on climate action. Despite being one of the best situated countries for renewable energy we stick our heads in the and cling to coal, doing escalating damage to our environment to dig it up and ship it.

All of this, so much!

IIRC, we only export the "cleaner" black coal, so the dirtier brown can only be used domestically (of course, actually choosing to use to such extensive degrees), most prominently in Victoria. So, basically "profits to the max!" & "lol, fuck our country even more than others." Brilliant. Morrison's "my precious" coal stunt was as ignorant, offensive, & regressive as Hanson's burqa fuckery, imo. And of course, coal = gold is the eternal position of much & more of the LNP (& other right-wing parties/independents). Yeah, Harper was a piece of work wasn't he? Trudeau isn't perfect (but what politician is?), rather from in some regards & he's too "OMG!'d" (for lack/want of a better term) by some of the media/internet (not that such is really his fault, too much), but he's far better for Canada & the world. Of course, their parties weren't/aren't solely their leaders, but in this modern day, it may be even more so than times previous though.

I may be ignorant of the matter, but it seems like the US largely transitioned rather well from all of the coal power station decommissions. By no means (i.e. not at all/not even close) would it be the apocalypse here the LNP & co fallaciously bellow, if it was done even half-competently. Yes, the US have hammered the likes of shale to help cover the interim (as renewables are utilised as much as they should've been, let alone going forward), even (far?) more than us with CSG. But come on, as you say, we're almost the best placed in the world head to where we out to have been, let alone should.

Our major left party in Labor hasn't exactly headed in the right direction, wrt to power, climate, & environmental policies, though. Adani is an utter clusterfuck that will deliver sfa of the projected/promised jobs, taxes, & economic stimulus for inevitable ecological disaster (& that's even if a ship doesn't hit a reef). Some/many solar tariffs & incentives massively reduced by their, not only Liberal, hands. The disastrous home insulation program, simply because they rushed into & half-assed it (unfortunately, something of a recurring theme with the Rudd/Gillard governments). Factional fighting, including part-wise the usurpation of Rudd for what was becoming a rather decent ETS to begin with considering, for Gillard to turn-around & install such a high price on carbon we (unfortunately) weren't anywhere evolved enough as a country for. And of course, the right ran with it all with such glee & viciousness. Then Kev to pull the same shit against Julia, at about the last minute, & still lost to Tony the Terror & the Coalition for Coal (& Catastrophe). Seven hells.

Mayhaps I'm a sweet summer child, but I think Australia should at least attempt to move to a power infrastructure & pricing system where as much electricity as possible is generated from small (e.g. rooftop solar panels & singular/few wind turbines) to medium (moderate sized solar & wind farms, not too large to potentially affect other land use) scale renewable sources, with large scale power stations not being fossil-fueled (instead, hydro, geothermal, tidal, etc - the latter two have amazing potential & viability here, that hasn't been realised like Snowy Hydro has, plus they can cover baseload); with such a system meaning that customers pay (far) more (but not excessively, because there would be more than sufficient supply) for what would be grid connection (basically paying for effective & essential maintenance of the network, which much & more of it sorely needed years/decades ago) than the actual electricity that power companies produce. If Australia could do it with how relatively small & low density populations over such vast areas, most/all OECD countries should be too imo. Particularly if they already have existing (& continued) nuclear power stations. I'm not really a fan of it, but might as well use it if it's already there (of course, as long as it's not a catastrophic disaster waiting to happen - like Chernobyl & Fukushima, for various reasons).

Solar panels should be compulsory for all new homes & buildings, with incentives for such (not necessarily grants or higher tariffs, but say just simply tax concessions or reduced rates) & also to influence far greater application for existing dwellings & structures. Eh, that's enough wishful thinking & ranting for now, though.

[GAROVORKIN]

It seems to be unusually cold here in the Northeast.

[Dr. Pepper]

35 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

It seems to be unusually cold here in the Northeast.

All those snowballs be disproving that climate change bullshit amirite?

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said:

It seems to be unusually cold here in the Northeast.

It finally seems to be normally cold here in Canada in the winter.

[GAROVORKIN]

2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

All those snowballs be disproving that climate change bullshit amirite?

I seem to recall reading global climate changes effect can  result in extreme cold spells  in some places . 

[Dr. Pepper]

17 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

I seem to recall reading global climate changes effect can  result in extreme cold spells  in some places . 

Sure, but judging by your posting history I figured you were going the typical GOP "here's a snowball so global warming is wrong" route.

[GAROVORKIN]

50 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Sure, but judging by your posting history I figured you were going the typical GOP "here's a snowball so global warming is wrong" route.

 

     There is something definitely  going on with the climate  and I suspect that  human  activity is playing  a significant role  and there are going to be some not so pleasant long term consequences for this world if things continue.   

Did you ever read about the mysterious massive holes that started appearing in the the Tundra in Russia a year or two ago ?  The Theory of them being that the  melting of the permafrost is releasing  pockets of trapped greenhouse causing methane gas into the atmosphere.

 

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

I see that in Australia Sydney set record high temperatures, 117 F. At the same time the hole in the ozone over Antarctica has finally started to shrink, back to where it was in the 70s I believe, though it will take another 70 years to close. And that reduction is amazing, an area the size of India!  

The repair to the ozone layer shows what can happen when the whole world cooperates, which we need to turn around climate change.

[GAROVORKIN]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

I see that in Australia Sydney set record high temperatures, 117 F. At the same time the hole in the ozone over Antarctica has finally started to shrink, back to where it was in the 70s I believe, though it will take another 70 years to close. And that reduction is amazing, an area the size of India!  

The repair to the ozone layer shows what can happen when the whole world cooperates, which we need to turn around climate change.

 

The problem is getting everybody on the same page.

[Dr. Pepper]

There's so much CO2 that planting trees won't save us because we literally don't have the room to plant enough trees.

http://www.businessinsider.com/so-much-co2-planting-trees-cant-save-us-2017-5

Quote

But recent reports indicate that we simply can't grow enough trees to capture the necessary amount of CO2 that would help us meet the goals set by the Paris Agreement.

In truth, we would have to cover the entire contiguous US with trees just to capture 10% of the CO2 we emit annually.

There's just not enough room on this planet to have the farmland it takes to feed the world plus the space to plant the necessary number of trees.

Obviously, not surprising, but gives an idea of the enormity of it all.

[TerraPrime]

I don't know whether there's a tipping point of no return concerning CO2 that we've already passed, or not. I think we're probably close to it or have already passed it. 

However, I do know that regardless of any tipping point, changing our behavior to reduce our output is ALWAYS going to help. Even if the climate pattern is already changed beyond repair, certainly, adding less to it cannot be worse. In terms of risk analysis, I see no permutation where concerted efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emission is a no-go. 

[TerraPrime]

In other news:

 

1. Oceanic apoxic dead zones have quadrupled in size since 1950. Link: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/04/oceans-suffocating-dead-zones-oxygen-starved

2. The new arctic climate is predicted to be dominated by rain, instead of snow. Link: https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3240   That article was published in March of 2017. Then, in Sept 2017, someone observed actual rainfall in the arctic: http://blogs.reuters.com/environment/2008/01/04/how-often-does-it-rain-at-the-north-pole/ 

 

That's all.