Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
AlaskanSandman

What's your Nissa Nissa theory?

71 posts in this topic

So i go back and forth about some details about Nissa Nissa. Largely.

1. Is this the moment dragons were actually created?

2. Is this really what made Dawn?

3. Is this how the Others were created? This does mirror the thing that should not be named. The blade that Azor Ahai pierced Nissa Nissa's heart with could have been obsidian.

Or it could be something else. Problems with each i see are

1. We have set up through Wyverns and FireWyrms mixing through skin changing as implied by the rule against doing such, as mentioned by Varamyr

2. The Empire of the Dawn already seemed to be making these swords and we here of other Dragon Blade swords in the Age of Heroes.

3. We also have the legends of the Curse on the Barrow of the First King, The Grey King, and the Night's King's Corpse Queen. Which all sound like they're also possible origins of the Others.

Edit- We are also told that Azor Ahai was at the end of the war, and that they had already been fighting the Others through this generation long winter. 

So i was curious any other thoughts, crack pot, or totally against believing any of the myths.

If it were not for already seeing the Others and Dragons, it would be easy to see the Long Night as a cultural take over. I would love to see any ideas, no matter how far reaching.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My theory is that Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai are legends not historical figures. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So i go back and forth about some details about Nissa Nissa. Largely.

1. Is this the moment dragons were actually created?

Dragons were created in Valyria by Valyrians from Wyrms.

2. Is this really what made Dawn?

Doubtful.  It's just a legend about the creation of the original magic sword Lightbringer.  Dawn actually exists and has it's own tale explaining its origins.

3. Is this how the Others were created? This does mirror the thing that should not be named. The blade that Azor Ahai pierced Nissa Nissa's heart with could have been obsidian.

Not sure what you mean about the Others and the thing that should not be named.  As to Azor Ahai forging Lightbringer from obsidian I doubt it.  Glass would shatter and turn into frit if you tried to forge and temper it. 

Or it could be something else. Problems with each i see are

1. We have set up through Wyverns and FireWyrms mixing through skin changing as implied by the rule against doing such, as mentioned by Varamyr

2. The Empire of the Dawn already seemed to be making these swords and we here of other Dragon Blade swords in the Age of Heroes.

3. We also have the legends of the Curse on the Barrow of the First King, The Grey King, and the Night's King's Corpse Queen. Which all sound like they're also possible origins of the Others.

Edit- We are also told that Azor Ahai was at the end of the war, and that they had already been fighting the Others through this generation long winter. 

So i was curious any other thoughts, crack pot, or totally against believing any of the myths.

If it were not for already seeing the Others and Dragons, it would be easy to see the Long Night as a cultural take over. I would love to see any ideas, no matter how far reaching.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, White Ravens said:

My theory is that Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai are legends not historical figures. 

 

Is it just that you dont thinks the legends associated to them are true. Or everything to do with them is myth? Is this just a random myth? Does it serve a narrative purpose beyond filler? Who started this myth and why? Just because myths happen and so he gave them unrelated myths? What's your more thought provoking opinions? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, White Ravens said:

My theory is that Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai are legends not historical figures. 

 

This could very well be the truth.  Legends make the world of ice and fire more realistic.  Think of the legends that people had during the middle ages.  How many were true.

To answer the Alaskan Sandman, I believe Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  At least she fulfilled the role of AA when she woke her dragons from stone.  Her Khal Drogo was the Nissa Nissa of this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My favourite Nissa Nissa candidate is Rhaella. Which incidentally makes Mad King Aerys II the last hero. That would be so lovely ironic.

Our hero's first sword fails in water (Rhaegar in the floods of the trident).

His second sword (Viserys) fails in the heart of a Lion (admittedly a weak point in the theory - but Drogo did have a nice lion pelt which which he gifted to Dany.

Finally our hero plunged his 'sword' into his wife, Rhaella, and sacrificed her life to bring forth - Dany as Lightbringer.

***

(EDIT: Some years ago I had refined the theory by adding a better 'lion' for the second failed try. That would be Joanna Lannister whose 'heart' (love) Aerys II used to temper his second sword in (which then would be Tyrion instead of Viserys). The theory gets bogged down by the Tyrion-Targ controversy then of course. Also we would  have four swords instead of three (Rhaegar, Tyrion, Viserys, Dany) so that Viserys would have to be somehow explained away. For the sake of simplicity I skip Joanna and Tyrion here and go with Viserys as sword no. 2.)

Edited by Amris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the myths have a seed of historical relevance not unlike the story of King Arthur possibly based on a Roman affiliated military leader.

The question is how the myths and legends of the Night's King and Azor Ahai play out in the current story.  

I think Nissa Nissa is specific to what we are seeing played out between Melisandre and Stannis (who is trying to make Stannis into AA); and Dany who is selected for the part by agencies unknown.

Spoiler

Euron is attempting to re-make himself into AA using the power of water in the Foresaken chapter. 

The sword plunged into the heart of a lion seems to fit Jon Snow at the moment because I don't think the lion is an allusion to the Lannisters; but to royal blood.

So the original story that AA tried this, then that, until the third forging was successful seems to be missing a part of the story or the story has a bias in favor of the firey heart.  Or it's telling us that only one version produces the true sword.   

There seems to be a connection between the firey heart and the crowned stag by way of Melisandre's reckoning; and possibly to the horned lord of the Wildlings.  This crosses over to stories about the Night's King (who's name was wiped from memory) and the Great Other, who's name cannot/must not be spoken.  

Here we have Bran whose name can't be spoken by Samwell and Jon who's thinks that he could end up a stranger forever in the shadows; his true name never to be spoken.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, White Ravens said:

My theory is that Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai are legends not historical figures.

Mine, too. 

I believe he wanted his world to be more realistic and/or to trick everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

1. Is this the moment dragons were actually created?

No

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

2. Is this really what made Dawn?

Not exactly, but it could be the root of the story that changed over thousands of years and thousands of leagues 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

3. Is this how the Others were created? This does mirror the thing that should not be named. The blade that Azor Ahai pierced Nissa Nissa's heart with could have been obsidian.

Probably not. If the others are a doomsday weapon gone awry, as it is in the thing we shall not mention, there was no love or forging, just stabbing. But then again, thousands of years and thousands of leagues makes any story change in numerous ways 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Or it could be something else. Problems with each i see are

1. We have set up through Wyverns and FireWyrms mixing through skin changing as implied by the rule against doing such, as mentioned by Varamyr

where is there discussions of skinchanging Wyverns and FireWyrms? 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

2. The Empire of the Dawn already seemed to be making these swords and we here of other Dragon Blade swords in the Age of Heroes.

Text or it didn't happen (it didn't) 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

3. We also have the legends of the Curse on the Barrow of the First King, The Grey King, and the Night's King's Corpse Queen. Which all sound like they're also possible origins of the Others.

Edit- We are also told that Azor Ahai was at the end of the war, and that they had already been fighting the Others through this generation long winter. 

So i was curious any other thoughts, crack pot, or totally against believing any of the myths.

If it were not for already seeing the Others and Dragons, it would be easy to see the Long Night as a cultural take over. I would love to see any ideas, no matter how far reaching.

Nissa Nissa is just a myth. A retelling of the story of the last hero translated into many different languages and cultures. 
As for the origin of the others, aside from what we have been informed of on the thing that shall not be mentioned, It seems like the others are an ancient enemy of all things warm and by association, the CTOF who are not-elves and very nature centric. The CTOF have the weapons and magic can easily stop and destroy the others, and it would be the coming of the first men and the killing of the children and cutting of weirwoods that allowed the others to conquer what they did. After the war for the dawn, humans embraced the children and their magics, building the wall to protect the westeros. The andal invasion cut more weirwoods and killed the first men that had become the protectors in the absence of the children. now the others are back  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nissa Nissa is an eastern legend. Every region of Planetos seems to have its own Long Winter/Long Night legend. The Eastern legends emphasize Night, not Winter. Mel is (of course) screwing up by trying to apply it to Westeros.

The present day Westerosi Nissa Nissa is of course Ned (Nedda Nedda?), who sacrificed himself to save his beloved daughter, and was killed with his own sword. That's why Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail have their strange coloring - they are infused with Ned's blood. That probably means that the two swords will be cold this time around, instead of hot. (Ned is associated with Ice.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're going somewhat amiss in fixating on details of the myths/legends from the Long Night. All we can be reasonably sure of is:

  • that SOMETHING happened, involving a serious winter/cold/darkness
  • during the Age of Heroes
  • affecting most of the known world
  • which was POSSIBLY the first emergence of the Others in Westeros
  • and which finally ended
  • spawning many different legends which all claim credit for 'defeating the darkness/cold/whatever'

In Westeros the legend is a typically gritty Northern Last Hero; in Asshai a magical sword, and on the Rhoyne petty gods put aside their differences to sing a song together - although each says that their particular culture won the day, there are significant differences between how that was achieved.

Trying to find a Westerosi 'Nissa Nissa' is probably futile - why not look for a Westerosi sing-song instead, or Lightbringer is an F-sharp augmented chord? Picking out tiny details as something significant is probably the same as 'Aha, the curtains on Noah's Ark were the same colour!!!' The stories are equally old between Planetos and our RL legends of the Flood, so can we expect any more accuracy in what has been passed down?

As the ending of the Long Night entails various legends, what of its beginnings? Maybe the ancient empire, maybe the coming of the others, maybe something totally unconnected to anything that is remembered 'now'. Myths and legends can include a core of truth, but get co-opted to other purposes, to such a degree that the original truth becomes lost or unrecognisable. Whatever the truth of the timescale - 6,000 or 8,000 years ago depending on which Maesters you disbelieve the most - in RL Earth, we know NOTHING of the individual actions of named, reliably identifiable people over that timescale - even throwing together 21st century archaeology, textural anaylis, forensic sciences etc etc etc at the problem. We only have to look at how stories morph in ASoIaF within the space of weeks - anyone remeber the 'eyewitnesses' who saw Robb leading his army of wargs, eating enemy soldiers etc? Tales spread and distort even within living memory. What reason do we have to believe that any of the legends from 8,000 years ago give us any reliable information whatsoever?

Edited by Rufus Snow
sp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So i go back and forth about some details about Nissa Nissa. Largely.

1. Is this the moment dragons were actually created?

2. Is this really what made Dawn?

3. Is this how the Others were created? This does mirror the thing that should not be named. The blade that Azor Ahai pierced Nissa Nissa's heart with could have been obsidian.

Or it could be something else. Problems with each i see are

1. We have set up through Wyverns and FireWyrms mixing through skin changing as implied by the rule against doing such, as mentioned by Varamyr

2. The Empire of the Dawn already seemed to be making these swords and we here of other Dragon Blade swords in the Age of Heroes.

3. We also have the legends of the Curse on the Barrow of the First King, The Grey King, and the Night's King's Corpse Queen. Which all sound like they're also possible origins of the Others.

Edit- We are also told that Azor Ahai was at the end of the war, and that they had already been fighting the Others through this generation long winter. 

So i was curious any other thoughts, crack pot, or totally against believing any of the myths.

If it were not for already seeing the Others and Dragons, it would be easy to see the Long Night as a cultural take over. I would love to see any ideas, no matter how far reaching.

1. No. It was the moment Dragonriders were created,

2. No. Dragons (controllable dragons) are Lightbringer, but I think Dawn is something else.

3. Yes. Nissa Nissa is Night's Queen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't agree. Word of God (GRRM) states that the seasons were once normal and the irregular seasons now experienced are magically induced. In Westerosi legend, the Long Night marked the first appearance of the Others. Legend may not always be 100% accurate, but we have no reason to dismiss this as a valid data point. Tobho Mott, an experienced worker of Valerian Steel, could not get the remnants of Ice to behave as he thought they should.

The claim that, because some data points are uncertain therefore all data points are uncertain, is blatant BS. Even if a data point is to some extent uncertain, valuable information can be extracted from it. And that stands for the real world.

In ASoIaF we are dealing with the creation of GRRM, who can play by any rules he wishes to, and who is known to provide hints and foreshadowings. And that's what this thread is about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I had to guess I'd say it is a corruption of the means used by Valyrians to make Valyrian Steel swords. Implying that human blood sacrifice is part of the sorcery used to forge these unusually sharp blades. The story would go that they developed this new method of making swords stronger than any other but couldn't get the magic to stick without destroying the metal when tempered, they tried sacrificing animals to feed the sorcery but it didn't work, so they sacrificed a human and it worked. Perhaps that is why no-one knows how to create them any more because no-one considers that such sacrifice would be involved.

Alt Shift X also pointed out the theory that Rhaegar is the blade tempered in water (dying on the trident), Aegon VI is the blade tempered in a lion (killed by the Lannisters [assuming fAegon]), and Jon Snow if the blade tempered in a woman (Lyanna dying but him surviving).

Edited by Darion Storm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

(it didn't) 

The Last Hero for one had a dragon steel blade. Really?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Maybe

Not all at the same time... NN might be one of those, or another such event. More importantly the story of NN reveals how magic works in the world.

In a world of blood magic, self-sacrifice produces the strongest magic.

The rough sacrificial hierarchy:

Slaves, commoners, people-you-don't-know("No one you love, no one you hate") < Friends, Family, Enemies (Kinslaying) < Self

AA isn't the important one... it was NN that created Lightbringer. ("The woman is important too!")

Edited by Kienn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Last Hero for one had a dragon steel blade. Really?

I was speaking to your supposition that the great empire of the dawn had dragonsteel swords, and since the only reference to it that I know if only mentions the last hero, I was hoping you would be able to back up your statement with text. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I was speaking to your supposition that the great empire of the dawn had dragonsteel swords, and since the only reference to it that I know if only mentions the last hero, I was hoping you would be able to back up your statement with text. 

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands

in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands

Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.
 
Armor even.
Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… want to wake the dragon …"
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." 

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."
Crabb thought that was hilarious. "The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What's the point o' having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?"
"Honor," she said. "The point is honor."

 

 
Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

But she had another longsword hidden in her bedroll. She sat on the bed and took it out. Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red. When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne's breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. "You'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel," Jaime had promised.
 
Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.
 
Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Kienn said:

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Maybe

Not all at the same time... NN might be one of those, or another such event. More importantly the story of NN reveals how magic works in the world.

In a world of blood magic, self-sacrifice produces the strongest magic.

The rough sacrificial hierarchy:

Slaves, commoners, people-you-don't-know("No one you love, no one you hate") < Friends, Family, Enemies (Kinslaying) < Self

AA isn't the important one... it was NN that created Lightbringer. ("The woman is important too!")

Im definitely for this idea. A narrative would be kinda cool to draw out of it but not needed i guess. (I notice little bits that seem like parts of this narrative. Like when Sweet Robin destroys Sansa's castle, and Sansa defeats the Giant and Mounts its head on the gates)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Darion Storm said:

If I had to guess I'd say it is a corruption of the means used by Valyrians to make Valyrian Steel swords. Implying that human blood sacrifice is part of the sorcery used to forge these unusually sharp blades. The story would go that they developed this new method of making swords stronger than any other but couldn't get the magic to stick without destroying the metal when tempered, they tried sacrificing animals to feed the sorcery but it didn't work, so they sacrificed a human and it worked. Perhaps that is why no-one knows how to create them any more because no-one considers that such sacrifice would be involved.

Alt Shift X also pointed out the theory that Rhaegar is the blade tempered in water (dying on the trident), Aegon VI is the blade tempered in a lion (killed by the Lannisters [assuming fAegon]), and Jon Snow if the blade tempered in a woman (Lyanna dying but him surviving).

Interesting. I link them to 

Water= Ice = Others.

Lion = Cat's eye = CotF

Nissa Nissa = Blue Eyed Bride.

Galladon only drew his sword 3x and not once against a mortal.

I definitely see what your saying about the sword and the blood sacrifice, this is why im a bit torn. Unless all is happening at once, but i dont know how that would work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, hiemal said:

1. No. It was the moment Dragonriders were created,

2. No. Dragons (controllable dragons) are Lightbringer, but I think Dawn is something else.

3. Yes. Nissa Nissa is Night's Queen.

 

I wrestle with this one alot.

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

where is there discussions of skinchanging Wyverns and FireWyrms?

This isn't out right discussed in the books but it's set up. It's set up by Varamyr and the rules of Warging. Then we're given two creatures described as similar. 

Martin also gives an easy non magical (less magical in this case) answer, whether it's true or not. But as Jojen explains to Bran, you can get lost in your beast. Your beast can get lost in you. So who ever would have figured our how to do this, would have spent alot of time in his beast, and his soul and blood would be entwined with the resulting Dragon. Explaining pretty neatly the whole package. Again, doesn't mean it's right though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0