US Politics: For Whom the Bell Tolls

[Martell Spy]

Quote

The ongoing vulnerability of women and people of color is the deadliest proof that class war exists. Harvey Weinstein survived by placing financial pressure on his victims and offering incentives to everyone else to keep quiet; the markets that made him a millionaire enabled him to hire literal spies and sic them on Rose McGowan. Domestic workers, who are mostly women of color, recently told Splinter News that almost non-existent labor protections make it difficult, even impossible, for them to report sexual harassment or abuse.

The Year in Class War
Donald Trump's first year in office can best be seen as an all-out assault by the rich against the rest.

https://newrepublic.com/article/146184/year-class-war

[lokisnow]

5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I always assume its because people are dumb.

Yeah, this. It's like a job: you start the first day and spend a decent chunk of your first time on the job going " oh shit oh shit oh shit, I'm going to be fired they will know how incompetent I am." Or, "they'll see how little I got done, I'll be fired." Etc etc . And then you get promoted, probably not merits but on seniority and how well people like you. You slowly realize nothing really matters, and that the consequence of screwing up big is to be promoted into a management or executive position where you can't do as much damage as the people doing actual work, then you do everything possible with your authority to make sure the competent people never luck into the same opportunities as you and are kept properly in place doing all the work you're incapable of executing yourself. This was all true of my first job in fast food and the pattern has held true in all other fields.

apply to politics and you get folks like Debbie Wasserman Schultz or any number of useless politicians. People wonder "how can any one so bad at the job of being a politician have such a successful career in it?" And the answer is always the same: failed upwards and repressed the successful people from advancement.

so why do the clintons hold so much power? well bill Clinton, like Barack obama, are the special snowflakes that had a ton of natural talent and caught the right breaks to ascend past the we-will-suppress you level of employment straight into the failure upwards strata. And when sharks break into the kiddy pool, they feast.

the clintons have so much power because they immediately exploited the system to make sure the incompetents stayed in power or were given even cushier higher paying responsibility free jobs than hey already had. Of the system was rotten with incompetence at the top, the Clintons actively sought to spread and intensify the dry rot to more areas. Because they figured they'd always be out after the profited from their investment and before everything collapsed. Instead the whole damn thing collapsed on their heads.

Lets be honest in 999 iterations of the universe Barack obama is a speech writing flunky or house policy wonk in all of them, and is actively suppressed by all his superiors from running for office, we just got lucky he didn't get the same treatment the system expects him to get. But say he had Tried to remediate the Clinton rot? What would have happened? He'd have become a less effective president than Carter, with his own party hating and actively opposing him.

what obama needed and what sanders needed was not a top down "I'll win the presidency approach" but a ground up "I have 20,000 people running in every election in the country committed to my platform and all of them are the people who were doing all the actual work."

if we can replace the "fail upwards" system with a competence based system we might have a chance. Go out to the underlings and hire and promote the 4000 Barack obama quality people we have out there. Instead we will promote and run the 4000 Debbie wassermab Schultz's and just build a new house of dry rot of fail upwards.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

6 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

President Trump Tries to Pick a Twitter Fight With the Washington Post’s Dave Weigel

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2017/12/trump_calls_for_the_washington_post_to_fire_dave_weigel.html

Great job Wiegal! Didn't verify the picture was accurate, hands Trump a loaded shotgun to shoot all new media in the face. If there is one good thing that can possibly come out of Trump FAKE NEWS-ing eveyone it's that MSM becomes a helluva lot better at verifying stories. But it seems they haven't yet. Idiots!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Scot did you even read the link?  Your making a false equivalence here.  It's not like the Clinton's are the equivalent of factions Zorral listed.  They've been influential but it's not like the Democratic Party gets all its funding from them.  

It's not like they dictate what policies congressional dems will get behind.  The Clinton's should have been dropped a long time ago, yes, but their relationship to the DNC is quite different from the relationship between Zorrals list and the RNC.

Got it.  I completely misconstrued the point of the article.  The article is a good description of the “Fallacy of Relative Privation”.  Just because Bob’s bad act is worse than Jim’s bad act it doesn’t make Jim’s bad act not a bad act.  

[Larry of the Lawn]

35 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Got it.  I completely misconstrued the point of the article.  The article is a good description of the “Fallacy of Relative Privation”.  Just because Bob’s bad act is worse than Jim’s bad act it doesn’t make Jim’s bad act not a bad act.  

I do it all the time

[Mexal]

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Great job Wiegal! Didn't verify the picture was accurate, hands Trump a loaded shotgun to shoot all new media in the face. If there is one good thing that can possibly come out of Trump FAKE NEWS-ing eveyone it's that MSM becomes a helluva lot better at verifying stories. But it seems they haven't yet. Idiots!

It wasn’t a story, it was a tweet from his personal account which he deleted 20 minutes later and apologized for. The fact the President of the USA is demanding a private citizen be fired for a mistake he apologized for is a much bigger issue than his tweet, especially in light of the social media gang he sent his way to harass him. Addditionally, not more than a few days ago, Trump posted three fake anti-Muslim videos from a far right racist British group and rather than take them down and apologize, they doubled down on them. The double standard is so far out of control it is ridiculous.

[Mexal]

2 hours ago, Mexal said:

It wasn’t a story, it was a tweet from his personal account which he deleted 20 minutes later and apologized for. The fact the President of the USA is demanding a private citizen be fired for a mistake he apologized for is a much bigger issue than his tweet, especially in light of the social media gang he sent his way to harass him. Addditionally, not more than a few days ago, Trump posted three fake anti-Muslim videos from a far right racist British group and rather than take them down and apologize, they doubled down on them. The double standard is so far out of control it is ridiculous.

Taking this one step further, worrying about a correction on a personal twitter account is ridiculous when you have shit like this going on a major news outlet that millions of people watch. She is advocating the purging, arrest and prosecution, by name, of FBI and DOJ officials. This is 1000x worse than any quick correction.

 

[Martell Spy]

10 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Taking this one step further, worrying about a correction on a personal twitter account is ridiculous when you have shit like this going on a major news outlet that millions of people watch. She is advocating the purging, arrest and prosecution, by name, of FBI and DOJ officials. This is 1000x worse than anything quick correction.

 

Jesus Christ. I don't think I'm easy to stun, but you have done it. I used to be a cable news junkie, and I used to watch Fox, because I wanted to see a wide variety of opinions. Anyway, I haven't watched Fox since 2005. I had no idea it had gone this far downhill and this is terrifying.

 

[Zorral]

13 hours ago, Altherion said:

I don't think any one person can tell you that even if you could get any of them to be honest with you. It's the outcome of the interplay of party bureaucrats, politicians and big donors trading money, favors, positions and support with each other. Obviously, the Clintons weren't the only ones trying to grab power and in fact Obama outplayed them back in 2008, but after that they appear to be the best at the trading game right up until the point when Clinton lost. When that happened, a whole lot of promises and rewards were suddenly irrelevant which no doubt contributed to the dramatic increase in the ranks of H. Clinton detractors among the Democrats.

You guys are again making it about the Clintons. This question is about the Rethugs.

But, in the meantime, if you do wish to talk about stupid Dems:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/toughen-democrats-article-1.3686602 :

Quote

 

As many others including Cathy Young here in The News have pointed out, Franken was essentially tried, convicted and sentenced without any semblance of due process. There was no investigation. The charges against him, some of which were anonymous and some of which he denies strongly, were simply accepted at face value.

This is not only wrong but politically stupid. Democrats now have no defense against completely bogus charges ginned up by nefarious right-wing characters such as James O'Keefe, who has already tried once to manufacture a phony sex scandal.

Moreover, the political situation in Minnesota is such that Franken's departure has now put his seat in jeopardy. It may well go to a Republican next year, according to political analyst and Minnesota native Norm Ornstein.

Democrats are convinced that they have seized the high ground and this will hold them in good stead when they oppose seating Roy Moore, should he win his Alabama Senate seat.

Maybe so, but they may also lose the support of reasonable people who believe Franken was railroaded and made the victim of obsessive Democratic identity politics. Conservatives like Fox's Laura Ingraham and Newt Gingrich are already reaching out to such people by defending the liberal Franken.

Many Democrats insist that Franken's treatment is demanded by having to do the right thing regardless of the cost. But as MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell eloquently pointed out last Thursday, where were these principled Democrats when New Jersey Sen. Bob Menendez went to trial for corruption?

Surely the evidence required to bring him to trial exceeded the threshold of the hearsay and anonymous charges that got Franken thrown under a bus. The only difference, it seems, is that a Democrat will name Franken's replacement while a Republican would have named Menendez's.

A competent political party would at least have tried to get something in return for Franken's sacrifice. For example, Democrats could have used the occasion to call attention to Donald Trump's admitted sexual indiscretions or those of other Republicans such as Representatives Joe Barton, Trent Franks, and Blake Farenthold . . . .

During the Cold War, Democratic Presidents understood that even if you are willing to disarm unilaterally, you should still try to get something in return. But for Democrats today, virtue-signaling is its own reward.

I know Democrats think they will be rewarded — perhaps not instantly, but over time, including in 2018 — by voters for their principled stand against sexual harassment.

I don't buy it. Trump's "Access Hollywood" tape, in which he bragged about groping women against their will, was known to virtually all voters before the election, and it didn't seem to have any impact except on people who had already decided to vote against him.

Republican success today is built on a foundation they have built since the 1970s, financed by right-wing billionaires such as Charles and David Koch, Robert Mercer and Rupert Murdoch.

They are systematic, and they are ruthless. They created institutes, organizations and media outlets that relentlessly promote their agenda and give well-paid employment to professional right-wingers.

Democrats and progressives depend on the universities, the mainstream media and ineffectual organizations like the AARP, which went AWOL during the recent tax fight.

The Republican strategy can be copied without sacrificing progressive principles to create a more powerful, effective and aggressive opposition to GOP efforts to restrict abortion rights, slash programs that aid mothers and children, despoil the environment, gut consumer protections and take other actions that hurt women just as sexual harassment does.

Moreover, we, like so many others, e-mailed and phoned Gillibrand's office -- which was as responsive as any Rethug to people protesting getting rid of the ACA, environmental protections and taking everything and giving it away to billionaires.

 

[Zorral]

I haven't been quite this disgusted with the Dems in a few months, but leave it to them to recharge all the disgust and contempt batteries to full.  This also helps explain why myself and so many others, that they arrogantly believe will always vote for them, despise them as a party. They always beg to be gamed by the very system that the rethugs have put in place instead of coming up with anything effective and energetic that appeals to the voter.  Instead they dump the few seats in D.C. they have because they stupidly think they will look good -- and by the way get rid of a very potential presidential rival nominees to Gillebrand.  Do they really think we don't notice these things while they yell "Sexual justice!!!!!!!" and yet never even talk about Clarence Thomas and how he has made it really much more difficult than it was before he got a seat on the court for women to bring cases of sexual harassment against employers?

https://www.salon.com/2017/12/10/democrats-franken-fiasco-has-unhappy-echoes-of-the-clarence-thomas-affair/

 

[Altherion]

10 minutes ago, Zorral said:

This also helps explain why myself and so many others, that they arrogantly believe will always vote for them, despise them as a party.

They don't care that you despise them as a party so long as you do in fact always vote for them -- which you will because the alternative is Republicans coming to power and you hate them even more.

That said, it would be absolutely hilarious of the Democrats lost the Minnesota Senate seat next year (not likely, but hilarious).

[LongRider]

O_o, could hate tweets be far away?

Quote

Haley: Women accusers should be heard, even if Trump is target

Reuters Staff

2 Min Read

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley said on Sunday she believes any woman who has felt violated or mistreated by a man has every right to speak up, even if it is President Donald Trump they are accusing.~~~snip~~~  Haley, discussing a cultural shift of women coming forward on the CBS “Face the Nation” program, applauded women who have come forward: “I‘m proud of their strength. I‘m proud of their courage.”

Asked how people should assess the accusers of the president, Haley said, it was “the same thing.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-misconduct/haley-women-accusers-should-be-heard-even-if-trump-is-target-idUSKBN1E40MH

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

O_o, could hate tweets be far away?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-misconduct/haley-women-accusers-should-be-heard-even-if-trump-is-target-idUSKBN1E40MH

As I recall Haley wasn’t one of Trump’s backers during the 2016 election.

[LongRider]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

As I recall Haley wasn’t one of Trump’s backers during the 2016 election.

So what, she said the women, even women who accused Trump should be believed.  For her to say that about Trump is the issue. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

They don't care that you despise them as a party so long as you do in fact always vote for them -- which you will because the alternative is Republicans coming to power and you hate them even more.

That said, it would be absolutely hilarious of the Democrats lost the Minnesota Senate seat next year (not likely, but hilarious).

The rethugs aren't going to come into power.  They are in power.  All the way.

As the Dems aren't able or are unwilling to do anything at all effective, smart and desirable to counter them -- why vote at all?  That's what happened to Hillary, you all.  Which is how Hillary and the Clintons and the DNC get dragged into this all the time.  But the fact is, that between voter repression, gerrymandering and people just staying home, Hillary did not get the electoral votes.  So, again, since the Dems aren't doing anything about this, why bother?  Since, of course, the rethugs own it all now and every election just consolidates and reinforces?

Whether or not all or parts of the above are the facts, a lot of voters are seeing it this way.  And the Dems aren't doing anything at all to counter that.  Particularly by taking out Franken, whom the voters wanted to stay, and doing it without due process.

[Mexal]

24 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The rethugs aren't going to come into power.  They are in power.  All the way.

As the Dems aren't able or are unwilling to do anything at all effective, smart and desirable to counter them -- why vote at all?  That's what happened to Hillary, you all.  Which is how Hillary and the Clintons and the DNC get dragged into this all the time.  But the fact is, that between voter repression, gerrymandering and people just staying home, Hillary did not get the electoral votes.  So, again, since the Dems aren't doing anything about this, why bother?  Since, of course, the rethugs own it all now and every election just consolidates and reinforces?

Whether or not all or parts of the above are the facts, a lot of voters are seeing it this way.  And the Dems aren't doing anything at all to counter that.  Particularly by taking out Franken, whom the voters wanted to stay, and doing it without due process.

Think you need to hold off here. Dems have been effective so far in pretty much every election. Turn out is up, volunteers are up, legitimate candidates are up, donations are up. I don't know what else you want at a point when the Dems have no control of any area of government.

The issue with due process is that none of these accusations against anyone has gone through due process. Not the Trump accusations, the Moore accusations, the Murphy accusations or the Franks accusations. All of this is accusations, not the court of law. If you want due process, you should ask for it for everyone, including the Republicans being accused.

[lokisnow]

I would get upset about the lack of due process fro franken, except the picture is really fucking bad, in a way worse than trumps GTBTP audio, because audio braggadocio doesn't prove any actions actually took place. Franken miming groping a particular woman while she sleeps is an affirmative proof of harassment that is pretty easy to see happening. Even if it's just miming and not actual touching, the miming itself is absolutely harassment. Doing it while she sleeps invokes all sort of nastiness with date rape culture. The picture is really fucking bad, every other accusation could be a paid fake accuasation and I'd still want him to resign because of the proof the picture represents of franken actively participating in and promulgating a culture of harassment and inequality. 

[Mexal]

2 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

I would get upset about the lack of due process fro franken, except the picture is really fucking bad, in a way worse than trumps GTBTP audio, because audio braggadocio doesn't prove any actions actually took place. Franken miming groping a particular woman while she sleeps is an affirmative proof of harassment that is pretty easy to see happening. Even if it's just miming and not actual touching, the miming itself is absolutely harassment. Doing it while she sleeps invokes all sort of nastiness with date rape culture. The picture is really fucking bad, every other accusation could be a paid fake accuasation and I'd still want him to resign because of the proof the picture represents of franken actively participating in and promulgating a culture of harassment and inequality. 

yea that is the biggest issue with Franken, there is photographic proof of some form of harassment.

[Altherion]

59 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The rethugs aren't going to come into power.  They are in power.  All the way.

As the Dems aren't able or are unwilling to do anything at all effective, smart and desirable to counter them -- why vote at all?  That's what happened to Hillary, you all.  Which is how Hillary and the Clintons and the DNC get dragged into this all the time.  But the fact is, that between voter repression, gerrymandering and people just staying home, Hillary did not get the electoral votes.  So, again, since the Dems aren't doing anything about this, why bother?  Since, of course, the rethugs own it all now and every election just consolidates and reinforces?

Whether or not all or parts of the above are the facts, a lot of voters are seeing it this way.  And the Dems aren't doing anything at all to counter that.  Particularly by taking out Franken, whom the voters wanted to stay, and doing it without due process.

The Republicans just barely have unified control of government today and it is quite possible that this will no longer be the case as early as the 2018 elections. In the medium to long term, the parties take turns being in power and everybody knows this. That said, it would be good if a larger fractions of these accusations were against politicians who are liked by the kind of people who believe such accusations despite the utter lack of evidence. With a bit of ingenuity, it might be possible to construct cases against women too (it would just have to involve people who were children at the time of the alleged event...).

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

The Republicans just barely have unified control of government today and it is quite possible that this will no longer be the case as early as the 2018 elections. In the medium to long term, the parties take turns being in power and everybody knows this. That said, it would be good if a larger fractions of these accusations were against politicians who are liked by the kind of people who believe such accusations despite the utter lack of evidence. With a bit of ingenuity, it might be possible to construct cases against women too (it would just have to involve people who were children at the time of the alleged event...).

If they have not control how do you explain EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED, from federal judge appointments, the destruction of national parks and monuments, pulling out of the Paris Accords, the end of environmental and consumer protections, the assault on net neutrality, the end of the State Department (except to create Trump Hotel in Jerusalem), the wreckage of the CIA, FBI and NS, that none of these people starting with the orangilla has gone down for what Franken did or did not, the militarizing of police, and people who are not even cops, shooting unarmed people to death, and don't even get a slap on the wrist, the deportations and denial of entry to people who actually even live here and have citizenship, that the crimes against everyone not white male are way up, not to mention Russia, and o, so very very very much more?