What's that Nana?

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I always set out when doing a reread with a specific topic in mind to pay attention for & always end up half way through the series, my first topic long forgotten, looking up things on whatever new tangent my mind has taken me on. This series really is a gem. 

The Crow vs The Raven sounds spectacular! 

I never connected Sweet Robin with the crow. That's great. He also has seizures which in that-which-must-not-be-named Hodor appears to have while his mind is being messed with.  Still vague but interesting. 

 

Alas, I had forgotten that Bran has the three eyed crow & not the three eyed raven. For our purposes I don't know if it makes much difference but it does beg the question: Does BR not know how he appears to Bran in his dreams? Or is it not BR appearing to Bran at all? 

 

Absolutely. Also, in Greek mythology, the raven is associated with Apollo, the god of prophecy, & considered to be a symbol of bad luck. I seem to remember a story about the Ravens being white but Apollo burnt one because he was angry & ever after they were black. Something like that. 

Thats actually a great catch!!!! Damn haha 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149311-sweet-robin-and-the-others/

I go a lil tinfoil in here on that idea of Robin i heard some wheres, but the more and more i think about it and talk about it with others, the more im seeing it

And totally! I can see why it takes Martin soooo long to create these books! I think they are much richer than even most on here give them credit for

Edit- It's not just the Unnamed thing showing that. Hodor thrashes against Bran even in the books and this could very well be the same thing happening to Robin who is so strong of mind, that he can resist sweet sleep (Dreams,

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

I think its possible the roles are reversed too, and that Bran is being lured by the Crow, while Sweet Robin is able to resist him

[AlaskanSandman]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

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 Old Nan said they had Stark blood in them, going back hundreds of years, but they did not look like Starks to Bran. They were big men, and fierce, faces covered with thick beards, hair worn loose past the shoulders. Their cloaks were made of skins, the pelts of bear and seal and wolf.

 

Well they may not look like the Stark do now, but they do look like the Starks Bran later see's in his visions of Winterfell. I wonder what happened to the main line to cause the Starks to look different than they used to.

This part is interesting and i wanted to show a lil more relation

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

 

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

 

 

 

What caused this shift in appearance in the Starks? Why do they not look the way they used to? Like the Karstarks described above? Their kin.

 

Could this be the result of Bael the Bard?? or something else?

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Clash of Kings - Arya III

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. Now she knew how he must have felt.

 

I also wonder about this part

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Stark just means "Strong, Brave".

Being that Brandon the Builder may have been the Last Hero. He would be the Strong Brave one of the House. The Battle for the Dawn which many think took place in the South anyways on Battle Isle.

Edit- Literally, his name could be translated as Brave/Strong one of the Beacon Tower. 

     

What is your source for the Stark definition?

According to dictionary.com it means sheer, 1) utter, downright, or complete. 2)harsh, grim, or desolate, as a view, place, etc. 3) extremely simple or severe. 4)bluntly or sternly plain; not softened or glamorized.

This definition also fits the Starks in the books.

[AlaskanSandman]

16 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What is your source for the Stark definition?

According to dictionary.com it means sheer, 1) utter, downright, or complete. 2)harsh, grim, or desolate, as a view, place, etc. 3) extremely simple or severe. 4)bluntly or sternly plain; not softened or glamorized.

This definition also fits the Starks in the books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_(surname)

[AlaskanSandman]

24 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

bluntly or sternly plain; not softened or glamorized.

I quoted something in here earlier that mentions this subject of the ancient Starks and the now Karstarks looking stern, where as the more recent Starks do not. Kind of interesting when thinking of Stark as an adj. in comparison to their appearance 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/8/2017 at 5:43 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

snip

So did some digging into the crow and the raven and it's much more interesting than i thought.

Bran before the fall only mentions crows on the broken tower.

After the fall, it's almost always the Three Eyed Crow with the occasional crows on the broken tower.

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Osha called softly through the blowing smoke as they went, but no one answered. They saw one dog worrying at a corpse, but he ran when he caught the scents of the direwolves; the rest had been slain in the kennels. The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others. 

 

This is the only time Bran mentions Crows out side of the above listed. And it's with crows and ravens.

So then there is alot of these.

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XV

He found himself outside the city, walking through a world without color. Ravens soared through a grey sky on wide black wings, while carrion crows rose from their feasts in furious clouds wherever he set his steps

 

Linking crows and ravens to death on battle fields.

and this comparison.

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

with this vague reference

 

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A Clash of Kings - Arya X

The heads never lacked for attendants. The carrion crows wheeled about the gatehouse in raucous unkindness and quarreled upon the ramparts over every eye, screaming and cawing at each other and taking to the air whenever a sentry passed along the battlements. Sometimes the maester's ravens joined the feast as well, flapping down from the rookery on wide black wings. When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XV

He found himself outside the city, walking through a world without color. Ravens soared through a grey sky on wide black wings, while carrion crows rose from their feasts in furious clouds wherever he set his steps

 

And then we get this interesting passage

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Mormont snorted. "Because I sent him, why do you think? He's bringing the hand your Ghost tore off the end of Jafer Flowers's wrist. I have commanded him to take ship to King's Landing and lay it before this boy king. That should get young Joffrey's attention, I'd think … and Ser Alliser's a knight, highborn, anointed, with old friends at court, altogether harder to ignore than a glorified crow."

"Crow." Jon thought the raven sounded faintly indignant.

 

With Bloodraven saying this to Bran

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams.

Seems an odd response except that

 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Jojen sat on Bran's bed. "Tell me what you dream."

He was scared, even then, but he had sworn to trust them, and a Stark of Winterfell keeps his sworn word. "There's different kinds," he said slowly. "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall."

and yet, when Bran visits Jon....

 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

 

But who is the crow???

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A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"Did the crow have three eyes?"

Jojen nodded.

And yet this three eyed crow is visiting others. Yet we're told Jojen has Moss Green eyes and we're told this.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

 

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

And yet we are told that Jojen is not special. That he is NOT a greenseerer. Yet Bran, with his deep blue eyes, some how is???

It get's weirder too. So Robin is immune to Sweetsleep?

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A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Osha scooped him up in her bony arms. She was very tall for a woman, and wiry strong. She bore him effortlessly to his bed.

"This will give you dreamless sleep," Maester Luwin said as he pulled the stopper from the jar. "Sweet, dreamless sleep."

"It will?" Bran said, wanting to believe.

"You should not fight so hard, boy. I see you talking to the heart tree. Might be the gods are trying to talk back."

"The gods?" he murmured, drowsy already. Osha's face grew blurry and grey. Sweet, dreamless sleep, Bran thought.

Yet when the darkness closed over him, he found himself in the godswood, moving silently beneath green-grey sentinels and gnarled oaks as old as time. I am walking, he thought, exulting. Part of him knew that it was only a dream, but even the dream of walking was better than the truth of his bedchamber, walls and ceiling and door.

Yet  Bran still dreams, despite the Sweetsleep. Which make me wonder at them upping Robin's dosage. Are they actually helping him?

and it gets so much weirder

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Something in his voice sent icy fingers running up Bran's back. "Time for what?"

"For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer."

"The trees will teach him," said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers padded forward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. "You must eat of this," said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. "Will this make me a greenseer?"

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

 

The Trees will teach him?? Teach him what?? So he drinks the stuff that is like the Candles of the Faclessmen and the Stuff Dany drinks in Qarth. But then something interesting happens.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

"I saw him." Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. "He was cleaning Ice."

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

 

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

"Will I see my father again?"

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hairwas brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wifefind it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

 

Some how, while not jacked into the Tree's, Bran begins to travel back in time..... WTF?????

And it gets deeper when you begin to look at the rules of Warging. Did they feed Bran Jojen and Weirwood paste? Is there a weirwood seed inside of Bran now? Apart of the Trees? Did you miss something? I did at first..

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

"I saw him." Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. "He was cleaning Ice."

Why is their wood pressing against one cheek? and why is it just now being mentioned, like Bran is just now noticing it. Did it move and was not originally there?

Did they make Bran break a rule of Warging?

And what are the Tree's gonna teach Bran? Cause it seems like they, not him, are in control of what he is seeing. Which begs the question, what are the Trees?

and speaking of Robin and wanting to make people fly

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

Maybe Bran can teach them to fly too........

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A group of ravens is called an "unkindness" or "conspiracy," which seems fitting, since ravens are traditionally considered creepy; in fact, seeing many of them in one place can induce Hitchcockian "The Birds"-like flashbacks in even the least ornithophobic (those people with a fear of birds).Feb 8, 2011

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

. A murder of ravens  erupted from the hillside, screaming their sharp cries, black wings beating above a white world

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder,

Tell me it's not a conspiracy and that George isn't aware that a gathering of Crows is a murder, not Ravens.....

There is quite a bit more, im just trying to collect into order. Things to do with the faceless men and such but the more i dig into it the more interesting things i find.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just out of curiosity, if Bran does leave. Would he become a Weirwood Tree in someone's God Wood? With his own little face? 

[AlaskanSandman]

Its also worth noting, that when Bran begins traveling back in time with out the Trees, he is "shown" many things to do with Winterfell. The bulk of his known visions come from this moment. I would say this is actually quite important. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Its also worth pointing out that when Melisandre see's Bran and Bloodraven in her visions, They appear as a wolf and a Tree. Not a Three Eye'd Crow.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Much & more! Looker deeper into things always leaves me with more questions than answers but a couple thoughts: BR definitely sent either Jojen, the 3 eyed crow, or both to fetch Bran. If he is the 3 eyed crow why is he so perplexed by Bran asking him if he is? Does he not have control over how he appears to Bran? He appears to Mel as a tree. Is he not the 3 eyed crow at all? If he isn't who is? 

I have a feeling Jojen was only a greenseer because BR sent him visions. He seems to use him for the purpose of bringing Bran to him & then makes a paste out of him. It's definitely odd that Red eyes - like BR's & green eyes like Jojens are noted but Bran's are not. The only significance to Blue eyes I can think if is the Others. 

I personally think Bran will learn soon enough that everything BR tells him isn't true. Whether because BR lies, Bran is more powerful, or BR doesn't know. BR definitely doesn't seem to know there is away to view things while not connected to the tree but there we have Bran doing just that & after only one time of "seeing" 

George absolutely knows what a 'murder' is so what is he trying to tell us there? 

I love the Sweet Robin connections. Is BR manipulating him to alter the course of the war? Maybe in another time BR saw that if the Vale joins forces with the Starks, Bran never comes to him? 

[AlaskanSandman]

23 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Much & more! Looker deeper into things always leaves me with more questions than answers but a couple thoughts: BR definitely sent either Jojen, the 3 eyed crow, or both to fetch Bran. If he is the 3 eyed crow why is he so perplexed by Bran asking him if he is? Does he not have control over how he appears to Bran? He appears to Mel as a tree. Is he not the 3 eyed crow at all? If he isn't who is? 

I have a feeling Jojen was only a greenseer because BR sent him visions. He seems to use him for the purpose of bringing Bran to him & then makes a paste out of him. It's definitely odd that Red eyes - like BR's & green eyes like Jojens are noted but Bran's are not. The only significance to Blue eyes I can think if is the Others. 

I personally think Bran will learn soon enough that everything BR tells him isn't true. Whether because BR lies, Bran is more powerful, or BR doesn't know. BR definitely doesn't seem to know there is away to view things while not connected to the tree but there we have Bran doing just that & after only one time of "seeing" 

George absolutely knows what a 'murder' is so what is he trying to tell us there? 

I love the Sweet Robin connections. Is BR manipulating him to alter the course of the war? Maybe in another time BR saw that if the Vale joins forces with the Starks, Bran never comes to him? 

Moved to its own actual thread to hopefully generate more discussion