Lost Melnibonean

Jon Snow

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With all of the cockamamie x+y=z theories raging, and since I just started reading this whole thing all over again, I am starting this thread to get back to basics. By the end of the 12th chapter in Game, the attentive reader should realize, or at least strongly suspect, that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. After Eddard II, Game 12, it's just a matter of looking for more clues...

In the very first chapter we learn that Jon Snow is Ned’s bastard son. He is 14 when the saga begins. He does not resemble his bastard brother Robb. Jon's eyes are a grey so dark they seem almost black. He is of similar age to Robb, but they do not look alike. Unlike his bigger, stronger, and faster brother, Jon is slender, dark, graceful, and quick. Jon tends to be more quiet and intent than his brother. Here, Jon points out that he is not a Stark...

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Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father."

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully.

Bran I, Game 1

In Daenerys I, Game 3, we see that Daenerys believes that Rhaegar fought and died for Lyanna. And that Rhaegar’s wife later pleaded for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes.

In Eddard I, Game 4, we learn that Eddard’s sister Lyanna was only sixteen when she died, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness, whom Eddard had loved with all his heart. She was to have been Robert’s bride. Eddard was with Lyanna when she died. Eddard told Robert that she wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father. We know that Lyanna begged Eddard to promise her something, presumably to bring her home. That is certainly plausible, and it is the conclusion the author is leading us to, but is it a red herring?

Lyanna died with a fever, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. “Promise me, Ned,” she cried. When Eddard “gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.” The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, and there might have been more persons present. Lyanna was fond of flowers. Apparently, Robert believes that Rhaegar killed Lyanna, and that might explain the fever and the blood, but Daenerys believes that Rhaegar fought for her. And what’s up with the roses?

In Jon I, Game 5, Jon appears to resent his status as a bastard, but his uncle Benjen appears to care for him. Catelyn refuses to allow Jon to sit with the princes and the princess, even though his siblings do, and even though Jon normally takes his meals with his brothers. After giving it much consideration, Jon asks Benjen to take him to the Wall. Benjen fears that Jon is too young, and would not know what he “would be giving up,” and that if he “knew what the oath would cost,” he “might be less eager to pay the price,” implying that Jon would never know the love a woman or children of his own. When Benjen calls Jon “son,” Jon angrily notes that he is not Benjen’s son, to which Benjen responds, “More’s the pity.” Jon swears that he will never father a bastard.

Daeron I, the Young Dragon, is noted to be one of Jon’s heroes.

In Catelyn II, Game 6, we learn that Eddard had fathered Jon during the first year of his marriage to Catelyn while on campaign during Robert’s Rebellion. Apparently, Robb was conceived at the time, or very shortly after, they wed, and Robb must have been born while Eddard was away. Catelyn resented Jon because Eddard brough the boy home and called him “son” for all the North to see. After Catelyn rode from Riverrun to Winterfell with Robb, she found that Jon was already there with his wet nurse. Catelyn heard from her maids, who had heard from Eddard’s men, that the beautiful Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes, had been waiting at Starfall, when Eddard had returned Dawn after slaying Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, in single combat. Eddard refused to acknowledge the rumor that he fathered Jon on Ashara and commanded Catelyn never to ask him about Jon’s mother again. He then made sure that his retainers never spoke again about his presumed affair with Ashara either. Catelyn assumed that Eddard must have loved Jon’s mother fiercely due to the fidelity he showed the boy despite Catelyn’s wish that Jon be sent away.

We also learn that Jon resembles Eddard more than Robb, Bran, or Rickon.

When Eddard decides to go south, Catelyn lets Eddard know that she will not tolerate Jon in Winterfell. Eddard pleads suggesting that a boy with a bastard’s name would be shunned at court. Eddard resolves to send Jon to the Night’s Watch, supposing that it is for the best, expressing concern only about the boy’s youth.

In Arya I, Game 7, we see that Arya adores her bastard brother, with whom Arya has always been close, but Sansa appears to disdain him for his status. We also learn that Arya resembles Jon more than Sansa, who resembles Robb, Bran, and Rickon. Arya takes after Eddard. Her hair is brown, and her face is long and solemn. She is teased as “ Arya Horseface,” which hurts her since she rides well. She has a head for figures.

In Bran II, Game 8, we learn that Jon is still feeling resentful even though he has been allowed to join Benjen at the Wall.

In Jon II, Game 10, we learn that Jon tries to avoid Catelyn, and that she never addressed him once by his name. Despite Catelyn’s resentment and Sansa's disdain, though, Robb, Bran, and Rickon love Jon, almost as much as Arya.

In Eddard II, Game 12, we see that Eddard once told Robert that Jon’s mother was a common girl named Wylla, and that he dishonored himself and Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men. Robert had the grace not to press Eddard on the subject, though. This is certainly plausible. Unless the author gives us any more reason to question who Jon’s mother is, we should be satisfied with this. But why the mystery? 

We also see that Robert wants to wipe out all Targeryens...

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“Daenerys Targaryen has wed some Dothrakihorselord. What of it? Shall we send her a wedding gift?”

The king frowned. “A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it.”

Eddard II, Game 12

We learn that Tywin Lannister or his men were the ones that ripped Rhaegar’s heir from Elia’s breast and dashed his head against a wall, dragged his little sister from beneath her bed and killed her too, and then presented the corpses to Robert. Robert welcomed the act, but Eddard did not like that one bit. Nevertheless, he left to finish the war for Robert’s throne. And here we realize that Rhaegar did not kill Lyanna. Rhaegar must have been dead at the Trident long before Lyanna died in Eddard’s arms in the room that smelled of blood and roses. That suggests that Daenerys had the right of it... that Rhaegar fought and died for Lyanna. Robert believes that Rhaegar not only killed Lyanna, but that he raped her as well, and repeatedly. Given what we should suspect at this point, we can safely rule that out as well.

After returning from the southern reaches of the realm, Eddard then tells Robert that Lyanna has died, and that he has fathered Jon Snow on a common girl named Wylla. Hmm...

Eddard counsels Robert not to send assassins after Daenerys, suggesting that she is an innocent girl, and that his rule should be above such dishonorable acts.

As Eddard told him the “whole truth” of how Robert won his crown, we see that the only thing that Robert did not already know was that Jaime Lannister sat on his throne for a few moments. But, Eddard muses, “He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.” What lies did Eddard tell Robert? Hmm...

Clearly, the author is holding some mystery back, and we can start suspecting that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That would explain why Jon does not resemble Robb and his younger siblings, but then we have to question why Jon resembles Arya. Does Arya resemble Lyanna? At this point, we have to say probably not since Arya is teased by the prettier girls as "Arya Horseface," while Lyanna is described a girl of surpassing loveliness. It would also show that the “I am no Stark” line was a clever double entendre, since he would be the son of Lyanna Stark but fathered by a prince of House Targaryen. And notice that Catelyn assumes that Eddard must have loved Jon’s mother fiercely, and that Eddard did, indeed, love Lyanna with all his heart. The childbirth would explain the blood and fever. And caring for Jon, and hiding the boy in plain sight from Robert would explain why she had to beg, and why she was so relieved from fear when Eddard made his promise. It would also explain why Robb and Jon are so close in age. We still don’t know what’s going on with the rose petals and the flowers yet. 

So, we still have to reconcile the discrepancy between Arya horseface and her aunt of surpassing loveliness; we have to figure out the significance of the flowers, and we have to keep our eyes open for more clues and the big reveal in the next several thousand pages. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, sollemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. We've is mother had been, she she had left little of herself in her son. 

Tyrion II, Game 13

Here we see that due to Eddard’s lies, the realm has it backwards. Jon Snow has the Stark look from his mother, and his father left little of his facial appearance in this son. 

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Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself . . . no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Eddard IV, Game 20

Since we know that Sansa pleaded for Eddard not to kill her wolf, perhaps we should assume thatLyanna pleaded for Eddard not to kill something, presumably her son.

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11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Eddard IV, Game 20

Since we know that Sansa pleaded for Eddard not to kill her wolf, perhaps we should assume thatLyanna pleaded for Eddard not to kill something, presumably her son.

Oooh. Damn :wacko:

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Eddard IV, Game 20

Since we know that Sansa pleaded for Eddard not to kill her wolf, perhaps we should assume thatLyanna pleaded for Eddard not to kill something, presumably her son.

That is a very good quote!

As you are reading the books again have you seen any hints why lyanna wouldn t send letters or mensagers or anything to ned saying she wasn t kidnapped? Or if Lyanna was in the ToJ by her choice why did ned and the kingsguard fight between themselves?

It seems there is a secret story going on behind the war that we know almost nothing!

Or maybe Rhaegar loved lyanna but she didn t love him... and he did rape her in order to have a son that he believed would be TPtwP and the kingsguards were there to protect and take the baby way when he was able to travel...

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3 hours ago, divica said:

That is a very good quote!

As you are reading the books again have you seen any hints why lyanna wouldn t send letters or mensagers or anything to ned saying she wasn t kidnapped? Or if Lyanna was in the ToJ by her choice why did ned and the kingsguard fight between themselves?

It seems there is a secret story going on behind the war that we know almost nothing!

Or maybe Rhaegar loved lyanna but she didn t love him... and he did rape her in order to have a son that he believed would be TPtwP and the kingsguards were there to protect and take the baby way when he was able to travel...

I suspect Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love with each other. But he certainly could have taken her against her will. As to why Lyanna didn't write letters--I don't think we can say definitively that she did not. Isn't it possible that she did, and that Eddard knew where to find her? I don't see any reason to think she did though. 

You are correct. We know nothing. But we are learning. ;)

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55 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I suspect Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love with each other. But he certainly could have taken her against her will. As to why Lyanna didn't write letters--I don't think we can say definitively that she did not. Isn't it possible that she did, and that Eddard knew where to find her? I don't see any reason to think she did though. 

You are correct. We know nothing. But we are learning. ;)

But since AgoT that we have learned so very little! Even with 2 povs from jon con we don t know what he thought of the relationship between lyanna and rhaegar or what targ supporters thought of the abduction...

I mean, robbert's excuse for the rebellion was the kidnapping, however someone must have told him at least once that lyanna loved rhaegar! even if was a targ supporter. However, we haven 't heard any rumours of their love...

Then we have the ToJ. I don t think it is really a secret that there were kingsguards there, but we haven t seen any character trying to understand why or why the targs didn t use lyanna to their advantage...

And finally we have ashara. After a final rendez vouz with ned she decides to kill herself... so many misteries... 

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11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:
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Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself . . . no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Eddard IV, Game 20

Since we know that Sansa pleaded for Eddard not to kill her wolf, perhaps we should assume thatLyanna pleaded for Eddard not to kill something, presumably her son.

I think this connection is even better if one goes back and looks at the Sansa passage in detail:

Quote

That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to her father. "He doesn't mean Lady, does he?" She saw the truth on his face. "No," she said. "No, not Lady, Lady didn't bite anybody, she's good …"

"Lady wasn't there," Arya shouted angrily. "You leave her alone!"

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise …" She started to cry.

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. "Damn you, Cersei," he said with loathing.

Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa's grasp. All the weariness of the past four days had returned to him. "Do it yourself then, Robert," he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. "At least have the courage to do it yourself."

Robert looked at Ned with flat, dead eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead. Silence filled the hall. (Eddard III, AGOT)

Things of note:

  • Sansa's "eyes were frightened." Ned remembers that when he gave Lyanna his word, "the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes."
  • Arya, who is similar to Lyanna in many ways, is also strongly against the harming of Lady.
  • Lyanna's exact words could have been very similar to Sansa's: "Stop them, don't let them do it, please, please, don't let them hurt my baby."
  • The repetition of "I promise," evoking "Promise me, Ned."
  • The fact that all this pleading towards Robert was unsuccessful, even when Ned brought up Lyanna, could be taken as a hint that Robert would have also let Lyanna's child be killed if he knew about it (or at least that this is what Ned believed/suspected/feared).

Going back to the original quote you posted, here is a comment by @J. Stargaryen which ties it nicely to another quote that mentions Rhaegar's son and pleading (which you referenced in the OP):

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The basic idea is that I feel like GRRM is either trying to subconsciously get us thinking about Jon, or subtly communicate information about him. The link here is three women pleading for an innocent life. We know what two of them were pleading for, but the third one is meant to be a mystery. If, as I believe, all three are linked by this "pleading," then the first two just might be able to help us figure out what the third one was pleading about.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword. - Daenerys I

Notice the wording here: "pleading for mercy ... Rhaegar's heir." Why not something like baby Aegon? It's the sort of wording that seems specific enough to communicate who it means, but it's also true that a person can have more than one heir. For example, if the original heir dies. In which case Rhaegar's heir would then be someone else.

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. “If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself… no, I will not believe that.” Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. - Eddard IV

Anyway, we know that Sansa was pleading for Lady, her direwolf pup. And we know that Elia was pleading for Rhaegar's heir. I put forth that Lyanna was pleading for Jon Snow, who was both her direwolf pup, figuratively speaking, as well as Rhaegar's (new) heir.

In addition to the bold, I'd like to point out that Ned's thoughts go from "Rhaegar's infant son" to Lyanna pleading. Just sayin'.

Edit: I would also add that in the "pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir" quote, there is even a potential allusion to Lyanna in the same paragraph, as "the woman he [Rhaegar] loved."

Edited by Shmedricko

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4 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

I think this connection is even better if one goes back and looks at the Sansa passage in detail:

Things of note:

  • Sansa's "eyes were frightened." Ned remembers that when he gave Lyanna his word, "the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes."
  • Arya, who is similar to Lyanna in many ways, is also strongly against the harming of Lady.
  • Lyanna's exact words could have been very similar to Sansa's: "Stop them, don't let them do it, please, please, don't let them hurt my baby."
  • The repetition of "I promise," evoking "Promise me, Ned."
  • The fact that all this pleading towards Robert was unsuccessful, even when Ned brought up Lyanna, could be taken as a hint that Robert would have also let Lyanna's child be killed if he knew about it (or at least that this is what Ned believed/suspected/feared).

Going back to the original quote you posted, here is a comment by @J. Stargaryen which ties it nicely to another quote that mentions Rhaegar's son and pleading (which you referenced in the OP):

Edit: I would also add that in the "pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir" quote, there is even a potential allusion to Lyanna in the same paragraph, as "the woman he [Rhaegar] loved."

:thumbsup:

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On 08.12.2017 at 6:15 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

We also learn that Arya resembles Jon more than Sansa, who resembles Robb, Bran, and Rickon. Arya takes after Eddard. Her hair is brown, and her face is long and solemn. She is teased as “ Arya Horseface,” which hurts her since she rides well.

In Dance of the Dragons, Bran III. Bran had a vision of young Benjen and Lyanna. But he didn't knew who they were, because in his vision they were children. And Bran thought that the girl looks like Arya. And also people said before that Arya looks like Lyanna. And also that Lyanna was a very good rider, they even called her a centaur, and said that she was half a horse herself. So Arya looks like Lyanna, and Arya out of her siblings looks the most like Jon, thus Jon looks like Lyanna. Same as Jon, Lyanna had brown hair and dark grey eyes.

Edited by Megorova

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15 hours ago, divica said:

As you are reading the books again have you seen any hints why lyanna wouldn t send letters or mensagers or anything to ned saying she wasn t kidnapped? Or if Lyanna was in the ToJ by her choice why did ned and the kingsguard fight between themselves?

It seems there is a secret story going on behind the war that we know almost nothing!

My latest theory is that prior Robert's rebellion, there was a conspiracy going on behind the scenes. Tournament at Harrenhal was used as a pretence for a meeting of conspirants. Though it wasn't a conspiracy organised by Rhaegar to overthrow his father. It was a conspiracy of Blackfyres to overthrow all Targaryens. Varys was spy of Blackfyres.

Unlike during first five Blackfyre Rebellions, this time they carefully planned everything, and were preparing to hit 7K from within. Though before they were ready with their attack, Robert's rebellion happened.

Could be that Lyanna was sending messages to her family, and Rhaegar was sending messages to KL, but those messages were intercepted by spies of Blackfyres. Because Blackfyres planned to use this situation for their benefit. 

Could be that interception of their messages weren't connected to Blackfyres, and the one behind it was Tywin Lannister. He also planned to use this situation for his benefit. Or could be that Robert Baratheon knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped. Could be that prior she went away with Rhaegar, she sent a message to Robert, or even talked with him personally, and she told him that she loves Rhaegar, and that she isn't going to marry with Robert. So Robert pretended that he's Ok with it, and let them go. But after they were gone, he informed Brandon that his sister was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen. And knowing Brandon's hot temper, he intentionally made him furious, and also told him that Rhaegar went to KL. So Brandon went to KL, and demanded Rhaegar's life. We all know what happened later. And that as result of Rebellion, Robert became King of 7K, and married with Cersei Lannister.

I also think that it's possible that Tywin and Robert planned everything together. They agreed beforehand that Tywin won't take part in Rebellion, but in right moment he will go to KL, and will pretend that he's going to help Aerys. And when he will get in the city, he will kill Aerys, and make Robert King. And Robert will marry with Cersei. And that way Tywin will have access to power in 7K, even more than he had, when he was Hand of the King.

I also suspect that Steffon Baratheon was killed by Faceless Man. And that assassin was hired by Tywin Lannister. Currently he is living in household of Stannis Baratheon, his name is Patchface. But that identity is only a mask. Could be that Robert knew about Tywin's plan to kill his parents. And could be that there was a reason why Robert wanted his parents to die. So Robert and Tywin were accomplices in one conspiracy, even prior Robert's rebellion. And after Patchface killed Robert's parents, Tywin installed him in Baratheon's household, to keep an eye on Baratheon brothers. He also was a link between Tywin and Robert. And after Robert became King, Patchface stayed behind to watch over Stannis. Could be that Stannis also knew that death of their parents weren't accidental.

Out of people that were participating in those conspiracies, only Stannis is alive now. So maybe when he will die, then Patchface will reveal his real identity.

Either way, whether Lyanna's kidnapping is related to Blackfyre's conspiracy or not, Blackfyres did infiltrated Aerys' court prior Rebellion. And Varys even then was their spy.

It just can't be that Blackfyres were inactive all that time, after War of Ninepenny Kings, and up until creating fAegon. It's obvious that fAegon is a project of Blackfyres. Supposedly Young Griff is son of Rhaegar, that was saved by Varys. Varys is connected to Blackfyres, and to Illyrio. And Illyrio is connected to Dany and Viserys. It was said in the book, that Illyrio was watching over Dany and her brother for many years, prior he took them into his mansion and arranged Dany's marriage with Khal Drogo. The hint that points that Dany was under observation of Blackfyres, is red door in house at Volantis. Blackfyres are black dragons, while Targaryens are red dragons. Thus that door was a sign that in that house live red dragons/Targaryens.

Interest of Varys and Illyrio, in both Dany and fAegon, is a prove that fAegon really is a fake. Real Aegon was killed by the Mountain. By marring Dany to Khal Drogo, Illyrio got rid of two real Targaryens, and then they proceeded with their fAegon plan. 

Though Blackfyres are not united, they have several separate factions that pursue different goals. Those that gave dragon eggs to Dany, and kidnapped her newborn son Rhaego, want to bring back dragons and control the world with their help. And also they want the prophecy about Azor Ahai to come true. Quaithe is one of them. I think that she is a Blackfyre. Also she's mother of fAegon, and her real name is Jeyne Swann. fAegon's father is Barristan Selmy, he's also a Blackfyre. Barristan is great grandson of Daemon I Blackfyre, and relative of Aegor Rivers, founder of Golden Company.

Tragedy at Harrenhal was caused by Blackfyres. They stole seven dragon eggs of Targaryens, and three of them gave to Dany.

Could be that my theories are wrong, though whatever is going on now in ASOIAF should be connected thru past events - Blackfyres Rebellions, Varys infiltrating court of Aerys, Robert's Rebellion, Danny's marriage with Khal Drogo, death/kidnapping of Rhaego, fAegon, etc. And all this could be connected by conspiracy of Blackfyres, past and future plans.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

In Dance of the Dragons, Bran III. Bran had a vision of young Benjen and Lyanna. But he didn't knew who they were, because in his vision they were children. And Bran thought that the girl looks like Arya. And also people said before that Arya looks like Lyanna. And also that Lyanna was a very good rider, they even called her a centaur, and said that she was half a horse herself. So Arya looks like Lyanna, and Arya out of her siblings looks the most like Jon, thus Jon looks like Lyanna. Same as Jon, Lyanna had brown hair and dark grey eyes.

Absolutely. I was just looking at what we know as of early game. 

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17 hours ago, divica said:

Or if Lyanna was in the ToJ by her choice why did ned and the kingsguard fight between themselves?

In addition to my previous post.

Three Kingsguards at TofJ were Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne.

Oswell's older brother, Walter, was Lord of Harrenhal. He arranged that tournament at their castle. Whent family and Gerold Hightower also worked for Blackfyres. When Rhaegar's son Aegon was killed, Blackfyres planned to kidnap Lyanna's baby, and later thru him to seize Iron Throne. Though Ned and Howland killed those Kingsguards, and thus ruined original plan of Blackfyres. So instead they made another plan.

They took a baby of the same age as real Aegon was, the baby that had Targaryen blood, and had hair and eyes of same color as Aegon's. And gave that baby to Jon Con. That baby was son of Barristan Selmy and Jeyne Swann.

Barristan's mother was daughter of Aenys Blackfyre.

Ancestor of Jeyne Swann was Johanna Swann, Black Swan of Lys and member of the Triarchy. Could be that after fall of the Triarchy, she married with Valyrian man from Lys, and together with him went to Westeros, and deposed her uncle Lord Swann, and seized his castle Stonehelm. So Manfred Swann, to whom Barristan served in his childhood as his squire, was partially Valyrian. And his daughter or granddaughter Jeyne, was also partially Valyrian. Then in 281 she married with Barristan Selmy, who was partially Targaryen/Blackfyre thru his mother. And thus their son had Valyrian looks. And he was born at about the same time as son of Rhaegar and Elia. Thus Blackfyres took that baby and lied to Jon Con that it is Aegon. Though Jeyne didn't wanted to give her baby away. Thus she separated from this plan of Blackfyres, and followed her own path. She went to Asshai, studied there magic, found out about the prophecy, and decided to take part in its realisation, by giving aid to Daenerys Targaryen. Though when she saw Dany's son Rhaego, she couldn't hold back, and stole him. Because her own baby was taken away from her, and she never got over their separation. Thus she kidnapped Rhaego to make him a replacement of her son fAegon. The witch that helped Jeyne to steal Dany's baby, also studied shadow arts in Asshai, that's where she and Jeyne/Quaithe met each other.

Or not :)

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On 12/15/2017 at 5:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Eddard IV, Game 20

Since we know that Sansa pleaded for Eddard not to kill her wolf, perhaps we should assume thatLyanna pleaded for Eddard not to kill something, presumably her son.

That's one of those quotes I never noticed until a few weeks ago. There's also this strong imagery of dragon and direwolf in that passage. And Elia pleading for Aegon's life, Sansa pleading for Lady's life, Lyanna pleading for her child's life. Cersei's involvement with Lady's death, Robert stepping over the body, this taking place at Castle Darry, it's history repeating itself on a much small scale, with two butchered babies before Ned rode off to find Lyanna.

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Even in fever, Lyanna should have know Ned would not hurt her son, and she's only ever seen Robert as Ned's best friend, the man who loves him like a brother.

She might have been afraid of Rhaegar's family - afraid they would seize ownership of the child and raise him as a dragon, not a wolf - going to war over the iron throne until he won or died. The plea to Ned would be the same: 'Save my baby. Don't let them hurt him.'

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Even in fever, Lyanna should have know Ned would not hurt her son, and she's only ever seen Robert as Ned's best friend, the man who loves him like a brother.

She might have been afraid of Rhaegar's family - afraid they would seize ownership of the child and raise him as a dragon, not a wolf - going to war over the iron throne until he won or died. The plea to Ned would be the same: 'Save my baby. Don't let them hurt him.'

I wasn't trying to suggest that Eddard would have skewered the wee bairn himself, but that revealing the  dragonlet's identity would have doomed him. 

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As stated at the end of the OP,  we still have to reconcile the discrepancy between Arya horseface and her aunt of surpassing loveliness. The key is found in Arya II, Game 22, when Eddard tells his youngest daughter that she resembles Lyanna, and that means that Jon does too. Now, we still need to resolve the flowers. 

ETA

In Arya II, Game 22, we also see that Eddard considers a lie told to protect the life of a loved one from death to be "not without honor." 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As stated at the end of the OP,  we still have to reconcile the discrepancy between Arya horseface and her aunt of surpassing loveliness. The key is found in Arya II, Game 22, when Eddard tells his youngest daughter that she resembles Lyanna, and that means that Jon does too.

I know you're going through the books in order, but about Arya Horseface, it seems to me like it's really just a very mean-spirited thing to say, because girls are just really mean to each other. Jeyne Poole came up with the name, and Sansa picked it up. The best way the girls found to hurt Arya is through her looks. Even her mother tells her she could be pretty if she washed her hair and brushed her hair and tended to herself like her sister does. In the later books Lady Smallwood calls Arya pretty (Arya IV, Storm 20), and Arya thinks that only Jon and Ned ever called her pretty. And the kindly man tells Arya they will give her a pretty face just like her own (The Ugly Girl, Dance 64). 

So Arya is a pretty girl who essentially thinks she's not because it's an idea that has been reinforced by the females in her life. If she's not of surpassing loveliness like Lyanna was, I think she's well on her way there. 

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3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I know you're going through the books in order, but about Arya Horseface, it seems to me like it's really just a very mean-spirited thing to say, because girls are just really mean to each other. Jeyne Poole came up with the name, and Sansa picked it up. The best way the girls found to hurt Arya is through her looks. Even her mother tells her she could be pretty if she washed her hair and brushed her hair and tended to herself like her sister does. In the later books Lady Smallwood calls Arya pretty (Arya IV, Storm 20), and Arya thinks that only Jon and Ned ever called her pretty. And the kindly man tells Arya they will give her a pretty face just like her own (The Ugly Girl, Dance 64). 

So Arya is a pretty girl who essentially thinks she's not because it's an idea that has been reinforced by the females in her life. If she's not of surpassing loveliness like Lyanna was, I think she's well on her way there. 

No doubt.

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On 18/12/2017 at 9:40 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wasn't trying to suggest that Eddard would have skewered the wee bairn himself...

Don't suppose you did...  it's just that I'm working through the possibilities, and I don't think young Robert appeared any more likely to kill babies than Ned. It was, after all, Tywin who killed the infant Targs - everyone was horrified, everyone felt the political necessity to let the crime pass. Robert is not the monster here.

So most likely Lyanna was afraid of the Kingsguard. They weren't going to hurt the baby, but they weren't going to let her take it away either. It sort of explains why they felt it necessary to fight Ned, because he would have obstructed their orders as well.

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