mistakes of hand of the king Eddard stark

[Alex Gu]

what were the mistakes of Eddard Stark when he was made a hand of the king that cause him to be executed?

some of the problems were:

• corruption of gold cloaks
• lanister influence/control in court
• debt to the iron bank
• Roberts vices

 

[John Suburbs]

8 minutes ago, Alex Gu said:

what were the mistakes of Eddard Stark when he was made a hand of the king that cause him to be executed?

some of the problems were:

• corruption of gold cloaks
• lanister influence/control in court
• debt to the iron bank
• Roberts vices

 

The biggest was weakening his household guard, first to the Gold Cloaks and then to Beric Dondarrion. Without that, he would have had enough swords in the Tower of the Hand to repel Cersei's attack.

There was not much he could do about the list you mentioned, since that was all in place before he got to King's Landing, although he did fail to appreciate the political machinations and consequences to his own security. But this isn't exactly a mistake -- more like the result of his inexperience with royal politics.

[Nevets]

His biggest mistake was trusting Littlefinger and failing to realize that LF was using him to cause trouble with the Lannisters through the discovery of the incest.   His biggest single error was refusing Renly's offer of assistance after Robert's mortal injury.  He knew Cersei would make a move, and, with Robert gone, he had no backup.

Losing part of his guard to Donadarrion didn't help, but he was undermanned from the start, and knew it.  As for losing some to the Gold Cloaks, that was temporary for the tournament.  

[ChuckPunch]

He makes the same mistakes Barristan made in Meereen. He trusts the wrong people and is too blindly loyal to an absent ruler. If he had taken charge during Robert's absence (and I mean REALLY taken charge, as in doing what Renly suggested) he would have been fine. Or if he had not been so trusting and kept his own men about him he would have been better prepared for Cersei, as others have said. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Trusted Caitlyn despite her self. 

1.Gave her clear instructions upon going North. Disregards all of it and instead kidnaps Tyrion, forcing the war and the Lannister's hand. Getting Eddard attacked in the streets, wounding and weakening him. In the Lion's Den, where they smell blood. 

2. Then trusted that she would at least be smart enough to hold Tyrion as leverage, but she doesn't. Losing Eddard one of his last advantages, and losing him his head.

Had Cat not took Tyrion, who knows how fast the Lannisters would have acted and how ruthless would it have been in comparison? Maybe Eddard would still have his head.

3. He trusted Little Finger on Caitlyn's word, who last saw him, when she left him bleeding to go marry Brandon. Naw, Little Finger wont harbor any grudge over that one.....

4. He listens to Cat and goes South to be the Hand of the King, so that he may investigate this murder mystery Cat has put him on thanks to stupidity. And also so her daughter has a chance to marry Joffery and be Queen, cause Cat was playing the Game of Thrones. A House she is accusing of murder....

Was there anything else i missed? 

 

[The Sleeper]

To be blunt, he half assed it. He took the job as a cover for a murder investigation and did not even try to establish his own power base in King's Landing, with the rationale of avoiding making waves until he had sufficient political ammunition, thus relying entirely on the position of being hand.

He never trusted Littlefinger. By the end he had simply ran out of other options and he could not get into the mindset of an individual like him and understand what his personal stake might have been.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

He did not appreciate the riddle of power Varys told Tyrion.

Ned had absolute power in the north, he assumed Robert had absolute power in the south and acted like he was hand of the king speaking with the kings own voice.

Now Robert was the absolute power in the south but much of that power was derived from Lannister gold, Ned in turn could speak with Roberts voice provided Robert could be kept quiet (not an easy task) but something Ned endeavoured to achieve.

What Ned failed to appreciate was that his souther power was derived from the king and once the king was dead he was no longer first among equals just a northen lord far from his power base.

What he should have done is change the balance of power at court; he could see the Lannisters surrounding Robert, the other LP and powerful lords would have jumped at the chance to attend court.  Sansa needed hand maidens, Arya needed a suitor, Ned could have taken on a squire.

Make a new seat on the small council hell dissmiss Stannis if he fails to return to KL, a dozen or so appointments/invites to the right houses to attend court, each of which bring a dozen retainers would shift the power in Neds favour, especially concidering their opportunities have opened up due to Ned and Ned alone.

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

He did not appreciate the riddle of power Varys told Tyrion.

Ned had absolute power in the north, he assumed Robert had absolute power in the south and acted like he was hand of the king speaking with the kings own voice.

Now Robert was the absolute power in the south but much of that power was derived from Lannister gold, Ned in turn could speak with Roberts voice provided Robert could be kept quiet (not an easy task) but something Ned endeavoured to achieve.

What Ned failed to appreciate was that his souther power was derived from the king and once the king was dead he was no longer first among equals just a northen lord far from his power base.

What he should have done is change the balance of power at court; he could see the Lannisters surrounding Robert, the other LP and powerful lords would have jumped at the chance to attend court.  Sansa needed hand maidens, Arya needed a suitor, Ned could have taken on a squire.

Make a new seat on the small council hell dissmiss Stannis if he fails to return to KL, a dozen or so appointments/invites to the right houses to attend court, each of which bring a dozen retainers would shift the power in Neds favour, especially concidering their opportunities have opened up due to Ned and Ned alone.

More or less this. He could have gone further. The Lannisters had a guard in the hundreds in the capital. He could have matced it. There were also plenty of younger sons in the North who would have jumped at the opportunity to follow him to the  and make a name for themselves, whom he could appoint to various positions.

Ned's mindset was completely different. He was used to being the ultimate auhtority and he maintained by keeping his distance. The court was a completely alien environment in that regard. The scene that is telling is the one where he and Selmy try to convince Robert not to take part in the melee. Selmy smoothly gets his point across to Robert. Ned was unable to. Selmy despite the various comments about his wits, has spent decades in the courts of various kings and knows how to maneuver. Ned had never had the need to manipulate anyone. He had no peers or superiors and everything he said was done.

[Curled Finger]

I'm on board with much above, particularly in not establishing a power base beyond his appointment and failing to accept Renly's help.  But, letting Cersei know his plans and taking his own children to KL were massive failures.  I think Robert would have understood if Ned simply chose to leave the girls home after Bran's fall.   There was also a letter he sent to Stannis that was intercepted by Cersei.   Ned really underestimated Cersei's resources and power.   He just wasn't a real player.

[Livesundersink]

On 10/12/2017 at 8:12 AM, Curled Finger said:

There was also a letter he sent to Stannis that was intercepted by Cersei.

He never got a chance to send it, it was found on the body of one of his guards, he planned to send it after arresting Cersei.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Livesundersink said:

He never got a chance to send it, it was found on the body of one of his guards, he planned to send it after arresting Cersei.

Of course you're right.   I'm overdue for a reread.   Thank you for correcting the error!  

[tormond]

On 12/9/2017 at 2:12 PM, Curled Finger said:

I'm on board with much above, particularly in not establishing a power base beyond his appointment and failing to accept Renly's help.  But, letting Cersei know his plans and taking his own children to KL were massive failures.  I think Robert would have understood if Ned simply chose to leave the girls home after Bran's fall.   There was also a letter he sent to Stannis that was intercepted by Cersei.   Ned really underestimated Cersei's resources and power.   He just wasn't a real player.

Ned stark was the biggest idiot in westeros, but the question is how?. Ok he was honorable but surely he must have heard rumors about tywin lannisters and his family, he personally knew that they didnt play by any rules. Tywin only came to the battle of conquest after it was won, and all he did was tricked the targaryan king and slaughter his family and the few that supported him in the city. Basically Tywin went and took the throne like he was the leader of the war. His son just like his father stabbed the king in the back and sat on the throne. Then Ned recieves a letter, a false letter from catelyn sister about a Lannister conspiracy. So we are back to the question, how Ned Stark could be so idiotic?. But even more, Renly told him that Cersei was not gonna play by the rules, he warned ned and offered advice and a force so ned could win. How the hell did ned win any battles and manage to be warden of the north, it just doesnt register

[Curled Finger]

46 minutes ago, tormond said:

Ned stark was the biggest idiot in westeros, but the question is how?. Ok he was honorable but surely he must have heard rumors about tywin lannisters and his family, he personally knew that they didnt play by any rules. Tywin only came to the battle of conquest after it was won, and all he did was tricked the targaryan king and slaughter his family and the few that supported him in the city. Basically Tywin went and took the throne like he was the leader of the war. His son just like his father stabbed the king in the back and sat on the throne. Then Ned recieves a letter, a false letter from catelyn sister about a Lannister conspiracy. So we are back to the question, how Ned Stark could be so idiotic?. But even more, Renly told him that Cersei was not gonna play by the rules, he warned ned and offered advice and a force so ned could win. How the hell did ned win any battles and manage to be warden of the north, it just doesnt register

It's all true, but Ned's mistakes are nuanced.  Ned believed in righteous honor and treated others with grace.  Like you, I wondered what in the world was so great about this guy.  Several rereads later I can appreciate the colors Ned was drawn with.  If things were right and gods were watching Ned would have achieved everything he set out to do.   He wanted righteous and honorable things to happen and he openly worked toward that goal.   It's a lousy world where such good is obliterated by such bad.   Does it make Ned stupid?   I think blind is maybe a better word.  Blinded by honor.  He simply was not characteristically equipped for the job of Hand of the King.   Ned was a boss when he was a young man, driven and angry.  Following Robert's Rebellion it's likely that nothing was going on in the North and Ned was able to benefit his people with impunity--who doesn't like a peaceful land and happy people?

Overall I think Ned acted toward others the way he expected them to behave toward him.  That's valiant, but absolutely misplaced.  

[Livesundersink]

1. He made his move whilst his daughters were still in the city, thereby giving the Lannisters leverage over him

2. He fails to recognize that people would make moves against him as a means of self-preservation

3. He sends Cat back to Winterfell via the Kingsroad rather than a boat

4. For some reason, after seeing that Robert wants Daenerys dead and seeing him beat his wife he still maintains that he is a good man to said mans wife

5. He refuses to send Loras Tyrell as part of the group to hunt Gregor Clegane cause he wants vengeance and not justice

6. He blindy assumes everyone will answer the call to fight Tywin after Cersei is arrested and continues to think so after his own arrest until Varys informs him of the situation

 

[GyantSpyder]

He didn't realize that Hand is an office, not a title of property. He needed to keep his own property separate from the Hand's property, and not diminish his own resources in doing the Hand's job, but instead use the tools the Hand has to raise resources before taking action. This includes things like not sending his own household guard on law enforcement duty, not conducting his own investigations into crimes on foot, and not treating the protection of his own family as an additional responsibility not covered by his job, rather than an existing part of his job that was already taken care of.

Also he should have realized that investigating the murder of Jon Arryn either needed to be conducted officially or not at all. Doing it personally while holding this particular office was not going to work out, as he did not have the ready means as Hand to personally punish the perpetrators even if he found them - while these means were much more readily available to him as Lord of Winterfell.

[Tygett Lannister]

On 12/9/2017 at 10:07 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

He did not appreciate the riddle of power Varys told Tyrion.

Ned had absolute power in the north, he assumed Robert had absolute power in the south and acted like he was hand of the king speaking with the kings own voice.

Now Robert was the absolute power in the south but much of that power was derived from Lannister gold, Ned in turn could speak with Roberts voice provided Robert could be kept quiet (not an easy task) but something Ned endeavoured to achieve.

What Ned failed to appreciate was that his souther power was derived from the king and once the king was dead he was no longer first among equals just a northen lord far from his power base.

What he should have done is change the balance of power at court; he could see the Lannisters surrounding Robert, the other LP and powerful lords would have jumped at the chance to attend court.  Sansa needed hand maidens, Arya needed a suitor, Ned could have taken on a squire.

Make a new seat on the small council hell dissmiss Stannis if he fails to return to KL, a dozen or so appointments/invites to the right houses to attend court, each of which bring a dozen retainers would shift the power in Neds favour, especially concidering their opportunities have opened up due to Ned and Ned alone.

He doesn't have absolute power in North that would mean he could imprison anyone at anytime without reason. It is feudal monarchy not absolute.

[The hairy bear]

14 hours ago, tormond said:

Ned stark was the biggest idiot in westeros

It's very easy to criticize Ned in retrospective. We have inside knowledge from the thoughts of other POVs, and we know the actual outcomes from all his decisions.

Eddard had been raised in the North and in the Vale of honorable Jon Arryn. Surely he had no experience dealing with people such as the nest of backstabbing adders of KL's court. But it's completely unfair to call him "biggest idiot in Westeros". The southern politicians probably wouldn't last much in a Northern court either. The causes of Ned's downfall were foremost that he arrived too late (war was already unavoidable), that his natural allies abandoned him (Robert and Stannis mainly), and that his adversaries had an incredible amount of luck.

Because lets not forget that once Eddard had discovered Cersei's secret, her plan was only to trust that a sixteen year old gets Robert drunk, and that he gets killed hunting afterwards. Come on. She was extremely lucky, but that would only work one in a million times. We can't blame Eddard for that.

That's not to say he didn't make mistakes. He did. But he was much more capable than people is giving him credit for.

On 9/12/2017 at 11:12 PM, Curled Finger said:

letting Cersei know his plans and taking his own children to KL were massive failures.  I think Robert would have understood if Ned simply chose to leave the girls home after Bran's fall.  

Letting Cersei know his plans was a risk, but remember than Ned wanted to avoid the murder of children at all costs, and we all know what Robert would have done once he knew. And it was not such a huge risk. As said before, Cersei was only saved due to an unlikely plan and tons of luck.

And there's no way he could have left the girls home. Sansa was the king's fiancee: he had to be seen at court.

On 9/12/2017 at 1:12 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Trusted Caitlyn despite her self. 

1.Gave her clear instructions upon going North. Disregards all of it and instead kidnaps Tyrion, forcing the war and the Lannister's hand. Getting Eddard attacked in the streets, wounding and weakening him. In the Lion's Den, where they smell blood. 

2. Then trusted that she would at least be smart enough to hold Tyrion as leverage, but she doesn't. Losing Eddard one of his last advantages, and losing him his head.

Had Cat not took Tyrion, who knows how fast the Lannisters would have acted and how ruthless would it have been in comparison? Maybe Eddard would still have his head.

3. He trusted Little Finger on Caitlyn's word, who last saw him, when she left him bleeding to go marry Brandon. Naw, Little Finger wont harbor any grudge over that one.....

4. He listens to Cat and goes South to be the Hand of the King, so that he may investigate this murder mystery Cat has put him on thanks to stupidity. And also so her daughter has a chance to marry Joffery and be Queen, cause Cat was playing the Game of Thrones. A House she is accusing of murder....

Was there anything else i missed?

This is getting really old. But let's repeat it again.

1.Cat tries to hide when she randomly meets Tyrion. It's only when she has been discovered that she decides to kidnap him. If she hadn't, Tyrion would have arrived at KL with the information that Cat had secretly been in KL. The Lannisters would obviously assume that Bran has awaken and that the Starks were about to strike. That would put Ned and the girls in terrible danger. At least she got a hostage.

2. You can't blame Ned with the fact that Lysa is nuts and in Littlefinger's pocket. It was reasonable to expect that Tyrion would remain in the Vale's custody for much more time.

3. False. He trusted Littlefinger before Cate even get there. And really, there wasn't much to choose from. Robert and Stannis abandoned him, Pycelle was a Lannister fanboy, and Varys was working for the Targaryen restoration. In retrospective we know that he should have joined forces with Renly, but...

4. You have your facts wrong again. The marriage of Sansa and Joffrey is Robert's idea, and he couldn't be refused. Catelyn didn't even want Eddard to take the girls with him at KL! (reread the chapter, it's from her POV). And Eddard himself realizes that he has to go to the capital to resolve the "murder mystery".

[Corvo the Crow]

Not thrusting LF was his biggest mistake.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

 

This is getting really old. But let's repeat it again.

1.Cat tries to hide when she randomly meets Tyrion. It's only when she has been discovered that she decides to kidnap him. If she hadn't, Tyrion would have arrived at KL with the information that Cat had secretly been in KL. The Lannisters would obviously assume that Bran has awaken and that the Starks were about to strike. That would put Ned and the girls in terrible danger. At least she got a hostage.

2. You can't blame Ned with the fact that Lysa is nuts and in Littlefinger's pocket. It was reasonable to expect that Tyrion would remain in the Vale's custody for much more time.

3. False. He trusted Littlefinger before Cate even get there. And really, there wasn't much to choose from. Robert and Stannis abandoned him, Pycelle was a Lannister fanboy, and Varys was working for the Targaryen restoration. In retrospective we know that he should have joined forces with Renly, but...

4. You have your facts wrong again. The marriage of Sansa and Joffrey is Robert's idea, and he couldn't be refused. Catelyn didn't even want Eddard to take the girls with him at KL! (reread the chapter, it's from her POV). And Eddard himself realizes that he has to go to the capital to resolve the "murder mystery".

On a crusade or something? lol

1. Still doesn't justify her actions imo. What little gained by that to any end, pales to what would have been gained had she listened. 

2. I dont, i blame Catelynn. I just blame Ned for trusting Cat. Some men don't wanna admit a hard truth though. Let's not kid our selves here, Cat has shown her "Character" many times and Eddard should be aware of her short comings, love or not. She treats Jon like utter crap and Eddard lets it slide, she's a bitter jealous woman, and she can't even "play" interested during sex for crying out loud. At what point here would you consider Eddard to be blindly lying to him self about Cat on some degree? She did her "duty" as she calls it. No more, no less, and she took what she could from it, the joy of her children and the love she had for them. They built a marriage of love yes, but not passion. Never passion. 

3. What do you mean? He met Little Finger and Varys in the same chapter as Cat arriving to K.L. Eddard IV and Cat IV? In what span of time would he have to develop trust for him on his own?

4. Apparently im just all sorts of wrong hahah and i never said it was Cat's idea, i said it was something she wanted. Also, i never said anything about the girls going south or who wanted them to go south. Reread my comment, it's from my POV. The murder mystery i dont think was enough to compel Ned to go south. If anything, other than Cat's pushing him, he knew he had to go because he couldn't refuse Robert. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 12/8/2017 at 1:33 PM, Alex Gu said:

what were the mistakes of Eddard Stark when he was made a hand of the king that cause him to be executed?

The biggest one:

• Eddard was a father hero written by GRRM. There was no hope recovering from that 

Fix'd it for you