mistakes of hand of the king Eddard stark

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

On a crusade or something? lol

The crusade is yours. The thread is very clearly about Ned's mistakes - why then are you using the thread to trash Cat? Do you honestly think the best answer is blame everything on the man's wife?

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The crusade is yours. The thread is very clearly about Ned's mistakes - why then are you using the thread to trash Cat? Do you honestly think the best answer is blame everything on the man's wife?

? Lol, ok, that doesn't make much sense but ill go with it  

I saw what the thread was about. This is what i think is one of his biggest mistakes. 

Let me change roles as not to ruffle any feminist feathers or die hard Cat lovers hahaha As this has nothing to do with either really. 

Lets say my brother was making decisions and moves that we're not only contrary to what i told him, but also, reckless and putting the family at danger. Despite his best intentions. 

Am i supposed to blindly back him and try to justify his actions? Or should i not face a hard truth, love my brother, but no longer look to him for these matters and try to limit his reckless behavior when ever possible? Being that i was the head of the House in some feudal system

Hard truths. 

Edit- So no, i blame Cat for nothing in this, i blame Eddard. The head of the House.

[desire]

Lol told Cersei

[Tygett Lannister]

20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not thrusting LF was his biggest mistake.

Good job on that one.

Ned or Cat were not stupid they just weren't as good as the other players.

[Knight Of Winter]

Many smart analysts pointed that Ned's biggest mistake is not using the office of Hand to half its power. Ned basically came into a position with great power and great dangers - he embraced the dangers wholly, but dismissed the power he could have had. All cost and no benefits. And all of this after the whole Mycah incident, where he had crystally clear opportunity to realize that Robert is basically a coward who can't be relied upon.

 

For example, when he started to suspect situation in KL might turn ugly (again, Mycah incident), why didn't he bring more men to KL, to preemptively increase his power base. He couldn't have easily sent a raven to his bannermen and order them to send him 50-100 soldiers each.

Next, if corrupt and incompetent Janos Slynt wasn't to his liking, he could have replaced him with someone more able and loyal. The entire crisis at the end of GOT could have been avoided if Ned had the backing of goldcloaks from the start. In fact, that's the first thing that every other new Hand/regent does when (s)he comes into power: Tyrion does it with Jacelyn Bywater, Tywin with Adam Marbrand, Cersei with Osfryd Kettleblack and Pycelle/Harys Swyft with Humphrey Waters.

Furthermore, Hand of the King has no need to concern himself with household knight rejecting Jory's questions - he could have easily commanded Ser Hugh to appear before him. Just as easily as he could have summoned Stannis from Dragonstone, which would accelerate his investigation into Jon Arryn's death hundredfold.

If the members of the Small Council are not to his liking, he could have removed them. Once again, Ned failed to realize that he was not among equals, but had the authority to preside and command over SC in Robert's absence. Use empty council seats to either confirm existing alliances (with Vale, Riverlands or his own bannermen) or the create a new one (maybe Tyrells).

Compared to this, all of his other mistakes - all his naivete and sense of honour - are minor and insignificant. Unlike, say, Tyrion or Tywin, Ned failed to realize the full advantage his position offered him, choosing to relegate himself "only" to Robert's friend and advisor, rather than powerful player in his own right. One time that Ned actually thought to use his powers - ordering the death of Gregor Clegane - was pretty smart move and failed only because of number of unfortunate circumstances.

[King Ned Stark]

I don’t know, using the office of Hand to increase his power base could have been dangerous as well.  Ned was in a precarious position, that he was fully aware of, and thought the best way forward was to keep suspicions low until he had what he needed to go to Robert.  He even says as much, something to the effect “all justice comes from Robert”.

Replacing anyone in any kind of powerful position would have been met with resistance.  The only way to ensure victory was to seize the children, which he knew would lead to their deaths and war.  He took an incredibly risk by trying to transition the power in a peaceful manner, and paid dearly for it; but it was a matter of morals, not intelligence or political savvy.

[Knight Of Winter]

5 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

I don’t know, using the office of Hand to increase his power base could have been dangerous as well.  Ned was in a precarious position, that he was fully aware of, and thought the best way forward was to keep suspicions low until he had what he needed to go to Robert.  He even says as much, something to the effect “all justice comes from Robert”.

No, it's not dangerous, it's outright natural. Literally any other powerful figure in KL does it: Cersei brings many Lannister soldiers in KL when she marries Robert; Tyrion brings mercenaries and clansmen to KL, along with replacing Janos Slynt with loyal commander; Tywin brings sizeable army with him etc. None of them ever thought about hiding behind "paper shields" without nurturing some actual muscle, some actual power behind their office.

Non of it would hindered him in doing his work or gathering evidence for Robert, quite the opposite. Imagine how easier Ned's position at the end of GOT would have been if he had 2000 more Stark loyalist in the city, along with a commander of City Watch. If Ned was in a precarious position, that's because he chose to put himself in it.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

23 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

He doesn't have absolute power in North that would mean he could imprison anyone at anytime without reason. It is feudal monarchy not absolute.

Out of my the whole post that's the one thing you want to pick up on.  We could split hairs to debate if its feudal or absolute.  Plenty of examples of absolute power being enforced by the kings of the 7k over the years.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

All the points brought up are good ones.

I think Ned's biggest downfall was his compassion. Ned's entire arc is built around the murder of children.

This whole thing starts with Bran's fall, into being forced to kill Lady, Mycah's murder by the Hound, constantly remembering the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys, Robert wanting to have Dany assassinated, his promise to Lyanna, the show of mercy and compassion for Cersei's children that came right back to bite him in the ass, and ends with his confession of treason to save Sansa and Arya.

[Whitering]

He did not want to trust LF, his wife told suggested he should and left with no honourable options (Renly), he chose to.

Ned had to send someone to deal with Gregor, or like it was suggested he would have gone himself, which may have put him on the Brotherhood without Banners, but I don't think he could have pulled that off, maybe he would have made it to Riverrun or something.

His only mistake that isn't excused by his character is going South to begin with.

[Tygett Lannister]

2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Out of my the whole post that's the one thing you want to pick up on.  We could split hairs to debate if its feudal or absolute.  Plenty of examples of absolute power being enforced by the kings of the 7k over the years.

Wait what, there is no discussion 7 kingdoms has feudal monarchy.

[Alex Gu]

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Many smart analysts pointed that Ned's biggest mistake is not using the office of Hand to half its power. Ned basically came into a position with great power and great dangers - he embraced the dangers wholly, but dismissed the power he could have had. All cost and no benefits. And all of this after the whole Mycah incident, where he had crystally clear opportunity to realize that Robert is basically a coward who can't be relied upon.

 

For example, when he started to suspect situation in KL might turn ugly (again, Mycah incident), why didn't he bring more men to KL, to preemptively increase his power base. He couldn't have easily sent a raven to his bannermen and order them to send him 50-100 soldiers each.

Next, if corrupt and incompetent Janos Slynt wasn't to his liking, he could have replaced him with someone more able and loyal. The entire crisis at the end of GOT could have been avoided if Ned had the backing of goldcloaks from the start. In fact, that's the first thing that every other new Hand/regent does when (s)he comes into power: Tyrion does it with Jacelyn Bywater, Tywin with Adam Marbrand, Cersei with Osfryd Kettleblack and Pycelle/Harys Swyft with Humphrey Waters.

Furthermore, Hand of the King has no need to concern himself with household knight rejecting Jory's questions - he could have easily commanded Ser Hugh to appear before him. Just as easily as he could have summoned Stannis from Dragonstone, which would accelerate his investigation into Jon Arryn's death hundredfold.

If the members of the Small Council are not to his liking, he could have removed them. Once again, Ned failed to realize that he was not among equals, but had the authority to preside and command over SC in Robert's absence. Use empty council seats to either confirm existing alliances (with Vale, Riverlands or his own bannermen) or the create a new one (maybe Tyrells).

Compared to this, all of his other mistakes - all his naivete and sense of honour - are minor and insignificant. Unlike, say, Tyrion or Tywin, Ned failed to realize the full advantage his position offered him, choosing to relegate himself "only" to Robert's friend and advisor, rather than powerful player in his own right. One time that Ned actually thought to use his powers - ordering the death of Gregor Clegane - was pretty smart move and failed only because of number of unfortunate circumstances.

Ever considered writing a one shot/story about this because you covered  like a writer 

[Knight Of Winter]

1 hour ago, Alex Gu said:

Ever considered writing a one shot/story about this because you covered  like a writer 

Thank you . If you're interested in this, may I recommend several bloggers who are both way better analysts and better writers then myself: Wars and politics of Ice and Fire, Good queen Aly, Race for the Iron throne, Poor Quentyn, Meereenese blot

[Alex Gu]

19 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Thank you . If you're interested in this, may I recommend several bloggers who are both way better analysts and better writers then myself: Wars and politics of Ice and Fire, Good queen Aly, Race for the Iron throne, Poor Quentyn, Meereenese blot

Do you believe that anyone of the bloggers be interested in writing a one shot/story?

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Many smart analysts pointed that Ned's biggest mistake is not using the office of Hand to half its power. Ned basically came into a position with great power and great dangers - he embraced the dangers wholly, but dismissed the power he could have had. All cost and no benefits. And all of this after the whole Mycah incident, where he had crystally clear opportunity to realize that Robert is basically a coward who can't be relied upon.

 

For example, when he started to suspect situation in KL might turn ugly (again, Mycah incident), why didn't he bring more men to KL, to preemptively increase his power base. He couldn't have easily sent a raven to his bannermen and order them to send him 50-100 soldiers each.

Next, if corrupt and incompetent Janos Slynt wasn't to his liking, he could have replaced him with someone more able and loyal. The entire crisis at the end of GOT could have been avoided if Ned had the backing of goldcloaks from the start. In fact, that's the first thing that every other new Hand/regent does when (s)he comes into power: Tyrion does it with Jacelyn Bywater, Tywin with Adam Marbrand, Cersei with Osfryd Kettleblack and Pycelle/Harys Swyft with Humphrey Waters.

Furthermore, Hand of the King has no need to concern himself with household knight rejecting Jory's questions - he could have easily commanded Ser Hugh to appear before him. Just as easily as he could have summoned Stannis from Dragonstone, which would accelerate his investigation into Jon Arryn's death hundredfold.

If the members of the Small Council are not to his liking, he could have removed them. Once again, Ned failed to realize that he was not among equals, but had the authority to preside and command over SC in Robert's absence. Use empty council seats to either confirm existing alliances (with Vale, Riverlands or his own bannermen) or the create a new one (maybe Tyrells).

Compared to this, all of his other mistakes - all his naivete and sense of honour - are minor and insignificant. Unlike, say, Tyrion or Tywin, Ned failed to realize the full advantage his position offered him, choosing to relegate himself "only" to Robert's friend and advisor, rather than powerful player in his own right. One time that Ned actually thought to use his powers - ordering the death of Gregor Clegane - was pretty smart move and failed only because of number of unfortunate circumstances.

Agreed to all of this, except that i would argue that it was a combination of this (His bad ability at strategy) combined with his compassion and weakness as head of a Feudal House. Understandable to some level as it was meant to go to Brandon, but still. 

All of these things to me can be summed up as a weak head of the House. He should've been taking pointers from Wyman Manderly. Eddard was a good guy, just not a good leader. He's definitely the dad you want though in all else

[Traverys]

I like to read essays and whatnot on blogs. The author of Race for the Iron Throne has convinced me with their opinion on the matter:

"However, I would argue that it's not Eddard's honesty that doomed him, but his failure to understand and make use of the nature of his office; instead, he saw himself as Robert's friend and advisor only, and relied entirely on his ability to sway Robert's judgment."

Their argument is detailed in an essay here.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Ned should have took Cersei up on her offer of her "being kind" to him with Jaime and Catelyn both far away. 

[The Commentator]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:12 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Trusted Caitlyn despite her self. 

1.Gave her clear instructions upon going North. Disregards all of it and instead kidnaps Tyrion, forcing the war and the Lannister's hand. Getting Eddard attacked in the streets, wounding and weakening him. In the Lion's Den, where they smell blood. 

2. Then trusted that she would at least be smart enough to hold Tyrion as leverage, but she doesn't. Losing Eddard one of his last advantages, and losing him his head.

Had Cat not took Tyrion, who knows how fast the Lannisters would have acted and how ruthless would it have been in comparison? Maybe Eddard would still have his head.

3. He trusted Little Finger on Caitlyn's word, who last saw him, when she left him bleeding to go marry Brandon. Naw, Little Finger wont harbor any grudge over that one.....

4. He listens to Cat and goes South to be the Hand of the King, so that he may investigate this murder mystery Cat has put him on thanks to stupidity. And also so her daughter has a chance to marry Joffery and be Queen, cause Cat was playing the Game of Thrones. A House she is accusing of murder....

Was there anything else i missed? 

 

You missed an important one.  Ned trusted Arya and Sansa with his secret plan to leave King's Landing.  And we all know what happened:  Sansa ratted him out to their enemy in the hopes that her family will be forced to stay so she can be with Joffrey.

[The Commentator]

23 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

I don’t know, using the office of Hand to increase his power base could have been dangerous as well.  Ned was in a precarious position, that he was fully aware of, and thought the best way forward was to keep suspicions low until he had what he needed to go to Robert.  He even says as much, something to the effect “all justice comes from Robert”.

Replacing anyone in any kind of powerful position would have been met with resistance.  The only way to ensure victory was to seize the children, which he knew would lead to their deaths and war.  He took an incredibly risk by trying to transition the power in a peaceful manner, and paid dearly for it; but it was a matter of morals, not intelligence or political savvy.

I will argue that Ned may have over-stepped his office when he sent his men to arrest Gregor.  He should have waited for Robert before acting.  But he was biased because the Lannister thugs were attacking his wife's family.  Ned failed to act objectively.  

[Foot_Of_The_King]

On 12/11/2017 at 11:25 AM, The hairy bear said:

It's very easy to criticize Ned in retrospective. We have inside knowledge from the thoughts of other POVs, and we know the actual outcomes from all his decisions.

Eddard had been raised in the North and in the Vale of honorable Jon Arryn. Surely he had no experience dealing with people such as the nest of backstabbing adders of KL's court. But it's completely unfair to call him "biggest idiot in Westeros". The southern politicians probably wouldn't last much in a Northern court either. The causes of Ned's downfall were foremost that he arrived too late (war was already unavoidable), that his natural allies abandoned him (Robert and Stannis mainly), and that his adversaries had an incredible amount of luck.

Because lets not forget that once Eddard had discovered Cersei's secret, her plan was only to trust that a sixteen year old gets Robert drunk, and that he gets killed hunting afterwards. Come on. She was extremely lucky, but that would only work one in a million times. We can't blame Eddard for that.

That's not to say he didn't make mistakes. He did. But he was much more capable than people is giving him credit for.

Letting Cersei know his plans was a risk, but remember than Ned wanted to avoid the murder of children at all costs, and we all know what Robert would have done once he knew. And it was not such a huge risk. As said before, Cersei was only saved due to an unlikely plan and tons of luck.

And there's no way he could have left the girls home. Sansa was the king's fiancee: he had to be seen at court.

This is getting really old. But let's repeat it again.

1.Cat tries to hide when she randomly meets Tyrion. It's only when she has been discovered that she decides to kidnap him. If she hadn't, Tyrion would have arrived at KL with the information that Cat had secretly been in KL. The Lannisters would obviously assume that Bran has awaken and that the Starks were about to strike. That would put Ned and the girls in terrible danger. At least she got a hostage.

2. You can't blame Ned with the fact that Lysa is nuts and in Littlefinger's pocket. It was reasonable to expect that Tyrion would remain in the Vale's custody for much more time.

3. False. He trusted Littlefinger before Cate even get there. And really, there wasn't much to choose from. Robert and Stannis abandoned him, Pycelle was a Lannister fanboy, and Varys was working for the Targaryen restoration. In retrospective we know that he should have joined forces with Renly, but...

4. You have your facts wrong again. The marriage of Sansa and Joffrey is Robert's idea, and he couldn't be refused. Catelyn didn't even want Eddard to take the girls with him at KL! (reread the chapter, it's from her POV). And Eddard himself realizes that he has to go to the capital to resolve the "murder mystery".

Thank you. I think people come down too hard on Ned. Of all of his mistakes (and he made plenty) his plan would have worked if Robert wouldn't have died. That's overlooked I think.