Roose Bolton's self control and leeching

[Lady Dacey]

I'd like to trigger allert here about self injury 

 

What's up with Roose and he's leeches? Really? People have several theories about his habit of his, but none have convinced me so far. Some say he's obssessed with purging (he's all about prunes keeping one regulated too) but why?? 

While rereading ADWD something rung a bell for me. It's not really a theory as much as a thought, something I see fitting his personality... He tells Reek:

"I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leechessuck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

It hit me immediately! As a person with former problems with self injury I just felt it. The leeching actually makes him think more clearly. It helps his self control, it's a way of not giving in to the same crazy behavior his son engages in. The same way people cut themselves to make pain or stress or sadness go away, to blunt emotions with the physical sensation of being hurt. It makes sense he's being leeched while having an important conversation with his fellow lords in Harrenhal for exemple. Same way people will pick on scars and fresh cuts when stressed... it's a coping mechanism. He rationalizes the 'bad blood' stuff, he might even believe it... but it's a coping mechanism all the same. When he does it, the sensation of leeches on his skin, maybe the physical disconfort, or even the idea that they are sucking away the 'bad' in him, actually work to make his 'rage and  pain' go away, so he remains in control of himself. It helps him think better. That seems very close to the behavior of people who engage in self injury and self mutilation to me... talking about myself and many people I've met in support groups.

Does that make any sense or am I tripping? 

[The Sunland Lord]

You're not tripping.

It's a placebo effect. If you strongly believe that something works in a way for you, it might really do. Those leeches are his dope.

[Dimmu Borgir]

It might be this simple indeed. I kind of like the idea of him using his blood for some nefarious purpose, but mostly because it adds even more layers to the story. However, it's probably just this in reality. As I've come to notice in this forum, time breeds strange theories.

[Lady Dacey]

11 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

You're not tripping.

It's a placebo effect. If you strongly believe that something works in a way for you, it might really do. Those leeches are his dope.

Not exactly talking about "placebo effect". No-one seems to believe regular leechings are necessary for otherwise healthy people, not even maesters. It's the actual sensation of being HURT that calms some people down (although that's not a very balanced way of dealing with one's problems). Leeching can't be pleasant... those theeth! 

[The Sunland Lord]

2 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Not exactly talking about "placebo effect". No-one seems to believe regular leechings are healthy of important for otherwise healthy people, not even maesters. It's the actual sensation of being HURT that calms some people down (although that's not a very balanced way of dealing with one's problems). Leeching can't be pleasant... those theeth! 

Well, if self-hurting is someone's thing, I guess you can put it that way too. It still has some placebo effect on your mental state, which is, I assume, somewhat "good"?

A lot of things, even hobbies, exercises, etc., practiced even today, are painful. This is a more extreme form of "getting rid of the negative energy" (blood).

In general, I agree with your idea that it might be a form of masochism, combined with some obsolete beliefs. 

 

 

 

[ChuckPunch]

Roose is a vampire.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'd like to trigger allert here about self injury 

 

What's up with Roose and he's leeches? Really? People have several theories about his habit of his, but none have convinced me so far. Some say he's obssessed with purging (he's all about prunes keeping one regulated too) but why?? 

While rereading ADWD something rung a bell for me. It's not really a theory as much as a thought, something I see fitting his personality... He tells Reek:

"I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leechessuck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

It hit me immediately! As a person with former problems with self injury I just felt it. The leeching actually makes him think more clearly. It helps his self control, it's a way of not giving in to the same crazy behavior his son engages in. The same way people cut themselves to make pain or stress or sadness go away, to blunt emotions with the physical sensation of being hurt. It makes sense he's being leeched while having an important conversation with his fellow lords in Harrenhal for exemple. Same way people will pick on scars and fresh cuts when stressed... it's a coping mechanism. He rationalizes the 'bad blood' stuff, he might even believe it... but it's a coping mechanism all the same. When he does it, the sensation of leeches on his skin, maybe the physical disconfort, or even the idea that they are sucking away the 'bad' in him, actually work to make his 'rage and  pain' go away, so he remains in control of himself. It helps him think better. That seems very close to the behavior of people who engage in self injury and self mutilation to me... talking about myself and many people I've met in support groups.

Does that make any sense or am I tripping? 

Im not sure about the rest, but it's worth pointing out that Sweet Robin receives leechings too and may be worth looking into. His maester says something about removing the "Bad Blood" also 

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Leeching can't be pleasant... those theeth! 

I think this is the flaw in your reasoning on this - leeches have an anaesthetic. They are ambush predators in the wild and can feed for hours, so it is important to their survival NOT to hurt the host, otherwise they would be brushed off or otherwise dealt with. It seems very unlikely for self-harming to be the motivation for using something with its own anaesthetic.

Now if Roose had a very pronounced 'yuck' reaction (as I would  ) then I would accept a self-harming or self-punishing motive, but I honestly believe he honestly believes in the medicinal value of what he's doing, and he doesn't seem in the least grossed out by it. 

It is totally consistent with the mediaeval medicinal doctrine of 'balancing the humours' that Roose believes in 'bad (or excessive) blood'.

 

[Lady Dacey]

42 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

leeches have an anaesthetic. They are ambush predators in the wild and can feed for hours, so it is important to their survival NOT to hurt the host

I had no idea! So there goes my theorie then... there are no leeches where I live, they're as mythical as firewyrms for me 

[Lady Dacey]

53 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sweet Robin receives leechings too and may be worth looking into

Yeah but Robert Arryn has a shaking sickness (seizures). As Rufus pointed out leeching had medical value in the Middle Ages. It was believe to actually be good for you - if you were sick and needed to be 'rid' of 'bad blood' causing the sickness. Healthy people being leeched just for the sake of it though... not so commom. But I do believe it's something he does to control himself though - he even had it done in a meeting in front of other lords! I always thought that was weird, I mean why not keep it private? 

[Curled Finger]

There has been measured success with introducing maggots to tumors and gangrenous limbs.   Apparently they just eat the rot and some patients are rid of disease.    Eww.  This is modern medicine and leeching is still a common holistic therapy for myriad ailments.   I think Roose is serious about ridding himself of the bad blood (that blood that pools in his extremities) by necessity.   Can't have folks seeing your black hands now can you?   His relationship with Ramsay is too bizarre to even try to understand so I am unsure what he means, if anything, by his statements about leeching Ramsay.   I think it's a cover or prelude to the next life.   Sweet Robin's leechings are pretty standard treatment for the era.   

[The Sleeper]

I think he is the medieval equivalent of a health nut which involves more than a little superstition. Rooses's fixation is control and order and regulating his body and mind fit into that.

[Rufus Snow]

7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

he even had it done in a meeting in front of other lords! I always thought that was weird, I mean why not keep it private?

Well, you have referred to Roose's great desire for control - over himself as much as over others. Whether the 'doctrine of humours' is valid medicine or not (either to us readers or even within Westeros), I think Roose believes it helps him control his emotional state. He generally comes over as a very calm, dispassionate and emotionally self-contained individual. I'm sure he has a similar attitude to prunes and his bowels - it's something he can control that makes him healthier in his own mind, and The Sleeper has a point about him being bit of a health nut. If there was pro-biotic yoghurt in Westeros, you can be sure Roose would be spooning it down between leechings, as well.

This thread got me wondering whether Roose was a masochist as a contrast to Ramsay's evident sadism, but I think on reflection the balance/contrast is between Ramsay's passionate, turmoiled state against Roose's buttoned-up reserve. Roose is willing to use extreme means if it keeps the smallfolk quiet, but that is just a pragmatic calculation for him. If being 'kind' kept them quiet he may do that instead - his concern is for the quietness, and he is detached from the methods. Ramsay, on the other hand, seems to be cruel for the sake of it, being very wrapped up in and emotionally attached to it, and Others take the consequences!

I suspect that Roose proceeds with his leechings in the presence of other Lords because it unnerves them a bit, they probably get that 'yuck' factor about it. It's a sort of strategy to keep the other party off balance, used to some degree by contemporary negotiators and interrogators.

There is an irony (or perhaps a deliberate flagging by GRRM) that the most self-possessed, in-control character is totally unable to control and influence his finally-legitimised heir. For sure he sees what a little shit Ramsay is, even to admitting that his son's 'bad blood' is so rotten it would poison the leeches, yet it is still Roose's dispassionate, pragmatic decision to have Ramsay legitimised to keep the Bolton name and bloodline in power. That in itself is a supreme act of self-control on Roose's part. And I don't doubt for a second that Ramsay is toast the second that Fat Walda drops an heir...

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

I think he is the medieval equivalent of a health nut which involves more than a little superstition. Rooses's fixation is control and order and regulating his body and mind fit into that.

     

Roose's has the appearance of someone half his age. He takes very good care of himself.

[Corvo the Crow]

Could it be that he has high blood pressure? Removing some blood would help him with that for a while.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 4:51 PM, Lady Dacey said:

I'd like to trigger allert here about self injury 

 

What's up with Roose and he's leeches? Really? People have several theories about his habit of his, but none have convinced me so far. Some say he's obssessed with purging (he's all about prunes keeping one regulated too) but why?? 

While rereading ADWD something rung a bell for me. It's not really a theory as much as a thought, something I see fitting his personality... He tells Reek:

"I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leechessuck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

It hit me immediately! As a person with former problems with self injury I just felt it. The leeching actually makes him think more clearly. It helps his self control, it's a way of not giving in to the same crazy behavior his son engages in. The same way people cut themselves to make pain or stress or sadness go away, to blunt emotions with the physical sensation of being hurt. It makes sense he's being leeched while having an important conversation with his fellow lords in Harrenhal for exemple. Same way people will pick on scars and fresh cuts when stressed... it's a coping mechanism. He rationalizes the 'bad blood' stuff, he might even believe it... but it's a coping mechanism all the same. When he does it, the sensation of leeches on his skin, maybe the physical disconfort, or even the idea that they are sucking away the 'bad' in him, actually work to make his 'rage and  pain' go away, so he remains in control of himself. It helps him think better. That seems very close to the behavior of people who engage in self injury and self mutilation to me... talking about myself and many people I've met in support groups.

Does that make any sense or am I tripping? 

My thinking on Roose takes a little explaining, but I will get the leeches as quickly as I can.

I believe Roose, or at least, the creature that we now call Roose, is the last surviving son of the Night's King. Born thousands of years ago, this being, who is half-human and either half-other or half-wight, was rescued by Joruman and the King of Winter just before he could be sacrificed to the Others, al la Craster. Being the only descendent of the NK, he naturally inherited has lands and titles from before the NK joined the Night's Watch -- probably the Dreadfort, maybe Winterfell.

Since then, this creature has survived through the ages by fathering children on human wives, waiting until they come of age, then killing them, flaying them (hence the Flayed Man sigil), and then donning their skin to form a perfect likeness of the new host, which would naturally become the new lord of the house since the previous lord has just died. The disguise is perfect except for the eyes, which remain the same pale milky color.

This explains a number of things:

He has virtually no hair.

He never sweats.

He is able to quiet big boisterous louts like the greatjon with barely a whisper.

And it explains why he knew for certain that Ramsey was his merely by looking at his eyes. It also explains why he rewarded Ramsey with lands and titles even after killing his "trueborn" son, Domeric. My hunch is the Dom was not a Bolton but a Stark, probably the son of Brandon Stark, which would make him ineligible as a host. Ramsey is of his blood, so Roose had to set Rams up as his heir, and now Lord of Winterfell no less, in order to maintain power after he sheds his Roose body and takes over Ramsey.

As for the leeches, this is how he keeps the blood from congealing in his extremities, the way it does with normal wights.

I also suspect that Roose and Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark are one and the same. And this, of course, is what gives the Starks their "Ice" blood, being descendants from Others and/or wights, which is complemented by the "Fire" blood of the Targaryens, which are mingled up in the blood of Jon Snow to form the Song of Ice and Fire.

So at some point in the next two books, I expect Roose to die. Once that happens, look for Ramsey to calm down, start speaking in whispers, start leeching himself and people will notice that his eyes are slightly paler than they remember. You'll know the switch has been made.

[Springwatch]

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

... this creature has survived through the ages by fathering children on human wives, waiting until they come of age, then killing them, flaying them (hence the Flayed Man sigil), and then donning their skin to form a perfect likeness of the new host, which would naturally become the new lord of the house since the previous lord has just died. The disguise is perfect except for the eyes, which remain the same pale milky color.

This has got to be close to the mark. I'd be more cautious and say maybe once the Others did make terrible half-humans, not by lying with women, but with magic somehow remembered in the traditions of House Bolton - the flaying of the skin, possibly a faceless man style skin transplant,  possibly also the draining of the hot red blood.

I'd say very likely Roose has some of these half-humans in his ancestry, but most likely the House traditions do not amount to full on magic. On the other hand - a lot of fire magic didn't work until recently. Maybe all magics are returning in strength to the world. Maybe that book Roose was studying tells him something about those old magics of his House.

ETA

I just had the uncomfortable memory of Sansa's dream before her flowering: seized by a mob and cut to ribbons with steel knives. Hope that's not foreshadowing.

[kissdbyfire]

On 08/12/2017 at 6:51 PM, Lady Dacey said:

When he does it, the sensation of leeches on his skin, maybe the physical disconfort, or even the idea that they are sucking away the 'bad' in him, actually work to make his 'rage and  pain' go away, so he remains in control of himself. It helps him think better

Like a placebo effect...

If he leeches himself often enough, it's also possible that remaining so calm and in control is nothing more than chronic anaemia! He simply doesn't have the strength to react to anything!

[HexMachina]

On 09/12/2017 at 8:00 AM, The Sleeper said:

I think he is the medieval equivalent of a health nut which involves more than a little superstition. Rooses's fixation is control and order and regulating his body and mind fit into that.

Yep. Modern day Roosie would be sipping kale smoothies and protein shakes and running meal preps like there was no tomorrow. He would have his carefully constructed exercise regime including time for teh gainz. Fat Walda would become Ripped Walda and become a professional bodybuilder under his tutelage

[Seams]

On 12/8/2017 at 8:00 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Yeah but Robert Arryn has a shaking sickness (seizures). As Rufus pointed out leeching had medical value in the Middle Ages. It was believe to actually be good for you - if you were sick and needed to be 'rid' of 'bad blood' causing the sickness. Healthy people being leeched just for the sake of it though... not so commom. But I do believe it's something he does to control himself though - he even had it done in a meeting in front of other lords! I always thought that was weird, I mean why not keep it private? 

This leeching in front of gathered lords is a major clue about Bolton's turncloak intentions (or, more likely, his longtime loyalty to Tywin Lannister and lack of loyalty to House Stark) and his plan to become warden of the north. The whole chapter - burning the book, hunting wolves, burning Fat Walda's letter - contains many clues about his intention to betray Robb Stark.

With that in mind, I see Roose's use of engorged leeches to be phallic symbolism: a public act of (pardon the slang) jerking off or, because Arya is the one handling the leeches, being stroked off by Ned Stark's little girl. This is a symbolic bedding, and it is closely grouped in ACoK with the symbolic bedding ("unkiss") of Sansa by Sandor Clegane in her bedchamber after the Battle of the Blackwater, and a symbolic bedding of Theon by Bran (via Bran's burned, melted direwolf's head pin which pricks Theon as he carries it around in his pocket).

Note that Arya must wear the flayed man colors of House Bolton in this chapter as she performs the duties of cupbearer in Roose's household - this is a symbolic cloaking or skinchanging, such as a bride would experience in a Westeros wedding ceremony. Beddings are supposed to be witnessed to ensure consummation of the alliance represented by a highborn marriage. Roose's leeching (symbolic bedding) of Arya therefore takes place before the assembled Frey lords and other northern bannermen.

In addition to revealing or foreshadowing Roose's turncloak intentions, this chapter represents a symbolic rebirth for Arya. She got blood on her hands with the "Weasel Soup" killing of the dungeon guards in the previous Arya POV chapter, and she makes the first use of the iron coin from Jaqen in this chapter, taking the first step on her journey to join the Faceless Men. I believe the author is telling us that her symbolic wedding / bedding with Roose Bolton has made her a blood-thirsty killer, much like the Bolton family. Roose "warged" into wolfskins, hunting and killing seven adult wolves and two cubs, and ordering a bed cover and mittens made from their skins. Arya "skinchanges" into the Flayed Man colors, using her livery to gain the trust of a guard who she kills in order to escape with Gendry and Hot Pie.

P.S. I'm glad if you have stopped self-harming. It's interesting that you connected Roose's actions to a past behavior of your own. I imagine, the fact that you see Roose as a bad guy, and his behavior as creepy and destructive, is a good sign that your recovery is going in the right direction. "Strength to your arm!" as they would say in Westeros.