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Genetic coding- 100% real world or fantasy for literature?


The Fattest Leech

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51 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that it's possible.

Though even if original Valyrians were from different species, later they for centuries were crossbreeding with original inhabitants of Essos. As result in Essos apeared the race of Andals, that had white skin, blond hair, and blue eyes. Then, not to be totally obliterated by Valyrian genes, they escaped from Essos, and invaded Westeros. They settled all over Westeros, but eventually mixed with First Men, and thru this lost their Valyrian genes.

While in secluded locations, they still maintained some of Valyrian genes - like Arryns from mountains of The Vale, blond and blue-eyed, that claim that they are the purest Andals in 7K; like Lannisters from also mountainous area; like Stony Dornishmen from the Red Mountains, nearly all of them have white skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

So current Targaryens are nearly the same as other human races of Planetos. And the main reason for their "misfortunes", is that because of constant incest, they have a very limited pool of genes. For example in those models, from my calculations, there are frequently happened cases, when Targaryen baby was getting from both of its parents same gene - b1b1, instead of having two different genes like b1b2, or b3b10, etc. So all those children were either stillborn, miscarried, died in infancy, were mentally ill, were sickly their entire lives, etc.

We don't know if Arryns of old were blue eyed blondes. It is more likely First men have the colored eyes and auburn, red, blonde and brown hairs while Andals are generally black haired and brown eyed.

 

Common people are most often brown eyed and brown haired, at least south of the neck it is. And South of the neck common folk are either mostly pure blooded Andals, like in the Vale because First men common folk were killed or driven out, or a mix of First Men and Andals, in those places like Reach and Westerlands who welcomed the Andals.

Arryns could very well have gotten their looks from intermarriage within the Vale which still had some First Men nobility, like Waynoods being horsefaced possibly due to Jocelyn Stark

 

In the thread below, I've been gathering information on family looks

You can see in there that of the three great houses with Blonde looks as a defining feature, two are first men with the third having a possibility to mingle with first men.

Val, a wildling is also a blonde with blue/grey eyes. Wildlings don't even have access to Andal genes, let alone Valyrian ones. Where did she get those traits if it was an Andal defining one?

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On 09.12.2017 at 7:35 PM, Lady Dacey said:
On 09.12.2017 at 6:54 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The genetics of ice and fire is just as simple - or, rather, nonexistent.

Perfect! I totally agree

Then how did Jon Arryn and Ned realised that Cersei's children are not Robert's?

And if in the world of ice and fire, genetic doesn't exist, then why did Cersei became worried about her future, and life of her children, and to eliminate the thread, executed Ned? What evidences of Cersei's adultery Ned, not just knew himself, but could have given as a sufficient prove to others? -> The only thing that he had, as evidences, is non-Baratheon looks of those children, and "gold olways yelding to coal" not being their case <- what is that, if not a genetic?

On 09.12.2017 at 7:44 PM, Lady Dacey said:

really love science and I really love fantasy and I like sci-fi... but the world of asoiaf doesn't follow our 'genetic rules' or any set of specific rules for inharitance at all. Baratheons have a strong seed, Targaeryans not as much. Sometimes a child takes after the mother, sometimes after the father, sometimes it's a mix of both or it will show up with something from a grandparent... it's futile to try and make sense of it. 

I went thru family trees and descriptions of Targaryens, Martells, Lannisters, Baratheons, Starks, etc. And all characters, whose ancestors are known, looks the same, as they would have looked with those sets of ancestors in real world. Every single one of them. Is it just a mere coincidence? What? - ALL of them? :huh:

On 09.12.2017 at 10:14 PM, Angel Eyes said:

On Jon Arryn's troubles: it's either Jon's seed is weak, or that Hoster forcing Lysa to drink moon tea permanently damaged her ability to produce viable offspring.

I heard this from another thread that Jon was doing research on that. Plus Robert could have inherited his brown hair from his Tully grandfather. 

Really? Or maybe from his real father Petyr Baelish?

The only reason why Robert is still alive, is because Petyr is reluctant to kill his own child. Yet. Though when the time will come, when it will be necessary for fulfilment of his plans, then he will do it.

Cersei knew who was Robert's real father, and thus she wanted to keep him, as a leverage against Littlefinger. And also to make Lysa keep quiet, if she knew what her husband knew, about Cersei's children.

Quote

Robert shook his head. “I have never seen a man sicken so quickly. We gave a tourney on my son’s name day. If you had seen Jon then, you would have sworn he would live forever. A fortnight later he was dead. The sickness was like a fire in his gut. It burned right through him.” He paused beside a pillar, before the tomb of a long-dead Stark. “I loved that old man.”

“We both did.” Ned paused a moment. “Catelyn fears for her sister. How does Lysa bear her grief?”

Robert’s mouth gave a bitter twist. “Not well, in truth,” he admitted. “I think losing Jon has driven the woman mad, Ned. She has taken the boy back to the Eyrie. Against my wishes. I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?”

Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. “The wife has lost the husband,” he said carefully. “Perhaps the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young.”

“Six, and sickly, and Lord of the Eyrie, gods have mercy,” the king swore. “Lord Tywin had never taken a ward before. Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House. She refused to even hear of it. Then she left in the dead of night, without so much as a by-your-leave. Cersei was furious.” He sighed deeply. “The boy is my namesake, did you know that? Robert Arryn. I am sworn to protect him. How can I do that if his mother steals him away?”

“I will take him as ward, if you wish,” Ned said. “Lysa should consent to that. She and Catelyn were close as girls, and she would be welcome here as well.”

A generous offer, my friend,” the king said, “but too late. Lord Tywin has already given his consent. Fostering the boy elsewhere would be a grievous affront to him.”

Lysa killed her husband, by poison given to her by Littlefinger. Cersei knew that there was no reason for Lysa, to reveal to anyone information about Cersei's adultery. Because Lysa herself was an adulterer, and her son was a child not from her husband. Cersei knew that her children doesn't look like her husband, because they look like their real father - Jaime, and also Cersei wasn't blind nor stupid, she saw that Robert Arryn doesn't look like Jon Arryn, but instead has the same hair color as Petyr Baelish.

"Petyr had been slight and short for his age as a boy, and nearing his thirties, he is still a short man of slender build. Petyr has sharp features, a small pointed beard on his chin, and dark hair with threads of grey running through it.[2][4] He has laughing gray-green eyes[2][6] " <-> Robert Arryn "He is small and pale with brown hair and big eyes.[3]" <- maybe his eye color isn't revealed intentionally? not to make things obvious from the very beginning.

So Lysa herself would have kept quiet about Cersei's secret, even without any further persuasion. Because if she will tell everyone about Cersei's children, then Cersei will tell everyone about Robert, and then Lysa will lose her place as Lady of The Vale, and the Eyrie will be taken from her by Harrold Hardyng.

Though, unlike for Lysa, if Cersei will reveal this information to others, it won't be harmful to Littlefinger. He won't lose anything. So this information couldn't be used as a leverage against Littlefinger. So to gain at least any control over Littlefinger, Cersei asked Tywin to offer to King Robert, to send Robert Arryn as ward to Casterly Rock. And from there Cersei was going to get to him, and then to Littlefinger.

On 09.12.2017 at 10:23 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Auburn isn't really red hair, and a person with this hair colour may produce brown-haired offspring.

Same hair color of Littlefinger and Robert Arryn, is not the only common features between them. They also both small and have similar body type. And eye color - could be that Robert's eye color isn't shown intentionally.

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On 11.12.2017 at 8:37 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

We don't know if Arryns of old were blue eyed blondes.

Current people of Arryns and Lannisters families, are blue-eyed blondes. And the only thing that is common between those two families, that live on opposite sides of Westeros continent, and NEVER intermarried, (aside from their similar looks), is that both their houses were established by Andals.

Lannisters are blue-eyed blondes + Arryns are blue-eyed blondes + Lannisters House was established by Andals + Arryns House was established by Andals = common features of Andals is blond hair and blue eyes.

Facts from history of those two houses, that show that they are Andals:

Spoiler
  1. Fair-haired, tall, and handsome, the Lannisters are the blood of Andal adventurers who carved out a mighty kingdom in the western hills and valleys. Through the female line they boast of descent from Lann the Clever, the legendary trickster of the Age of Heroes who tricked the members of House Casterly into giving him Casterly Rock[4] during the era of the First Men.[5]
  2. While House Lannister is of mostly Andal descent, Lann is believed to have been descended from the First Men. Some versions of his tale, however, state he was an Andal adventurer from across the Narrow Sea.
  3. The Fingers in what is now the Vale of Arryn was where the Andals first landed to wrest from the First Men.[7] The First Men of the Vale were ruled by numerous petty kings, some of whom allied with the Andals instead of resisting them. The Shells and Brightstones were betrayed by Andal allies, and the Andal Corbrays claimed the Fingers. The Shetts of Gulltown allied with the Andal Graftons against the Royces, but their conflict ended with Gulltown controlled by the Andals.[8]

    King Yorwyck VI Royce and his heirs led much of the resistance of the First Men to the Andals. King Robar II Royce gained the support of the Redforts, Hunters, Belmores, Coldwaters, and Upcliffs. These united First Men were able to successively defeat several Andal warlords, including the Corbrays, Graftons, and the Hammer of the Hills. However, Robar's army was routed in the Battle of the Seven Stars, and control of the Vale was claimed by the Andals of House Arryn.[8] Those First Men who did not submit to the Arryns fled into the Mountains of the Moon and became the Vale mountain clans.[6]

  4. According to legend, at some point in time at the Nightfort, the Rat Cook served an Andal king, possibly Tywell II Lannister or Oswell I Arryn, a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the king, the king's son.
  5. The Andals began to invade the westerlands after they conquered the Vale and the riverlands. Tybolt Lannister, the King of the Rock, defeated the first Andal warlord, and the next few attacks were also successfully defended by House Lannister.[15]

    As the Andals continued to march west, however, Kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages between their bannermen and the most powerful of the warlords. The children of the Andals were brought to Casterly Rock to serve as wards but also hostages. After the death of King Gerold III, his daughter's husband, the Andal Ser Joffrey Lydden, took the Lannister name. Other houses formed by the intermarriages included Houses Brax, Drox, Jast, Kyndall, Lefford, Marbrand, Parren, Sarsfield, and Serrett. In contrast to most First Men kings, the support of the Andals allowed the Kings of the Rock to expand their power.[15]

Arryns three times intermarried with Targaryens. First marriage - Daella Targaryen + Rodrick Arryn. Their only child was Aemma Arryn, and Daella died after giving birth to her daughter. Second marriage - Aemma married back into Targaryen family (Viserys I Targaryen). Thus Targaryen genes, from those two marriages, weren't added in to gene pool of Arryn family. Third marriage: Alys Arryn and Rhaegel Targaryen, they had three children Aelor and Aelora (that married with each other, but died young without leaving any offsprings), and Daenora (that married with her cousin Aerion Targaryen, had with him a son - Maegor, but all three of them died). Thus with this third marriage, not only Targaryens genes weren't added into gene pool of Arryn family, but also whatever Arryn genes were added into gene pool of Targaryens, were removed from there two generations later, with death of infant Maegor.

And Lannisters never intermarried with Targaryens.

So from where else, those two families could have taken their traits of blond hair and blue eyes, if not from their common ancestors - Andals?

And in mountains of The Vale, and mountains of Casterly Rock, members of those two houses, managed to keep their original gene pool mostly intact. Because they lived in distant secluded places, protected by mountains from frequent visits of outsiders. And thus people, that lived in those areas, instead intermarried with each other. That sort of things happen in real world in mountain villages, or on small populated islands, etc.

It's a logical assumption that blond hair and blue eyes are characteristical traits of Andals. 

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7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Current people of Arryns and Lannisters families, are blue-eyed blondes. And the only thing that is common between those two families, that live on opposite sides of Westeros continent, and NEVER intermarried, (aside from their similar looks), is that both their houses were established by Andals.

Lannisters are blue-eyed blondes + Arryns are blue-eyed blondes + Lannisters House was established by Andals + Arryns House was established by Andals = common features of Andals is blond hair and blue eyes.

Facts from history of those two houses, that show that they are Andals:

  Reveal hidden contents
  1. Fair-haired, tall, and handsome, the Lannisters are the blood of Andal adventurers who carved out a mighty kingdom in the western hills and valleys. Through the female line they boast of descent from Lann the Clever, the legendary trickster of the Age of Heroes who tricked the members of House Casterly into giving him Casterly Rock[4] during the era of the First Men.[5]
  2. While House Lannister is of mostly Andal descent, Lann is believed to have been descended from the First Men. Some versions of his tale, however, state he was an Andal adventurer from across the Narrow Sea.
  3. The Fingers in what is now the Vale of Arryn was where the Andals first landed to wrest from the First Men.[7] The First Men of the Vale were ruled by numerous petty kings, some of whom allied with the Andals instead of resisting them. The Shells and Brightstones were betrayed by Andal allies, and the Andal Corbrays claimed the Fingers. The Shetts of Gulltown allied with the Andal Graftons against the Royces, but their conflict ended with Gulltown controlled by the Andals.[8]

    King Yorwyck VI Royce and his heirs led much of the resistance of the First Men to the Andals. King Robar II Royce gained the support of the Redforts, Hunters, Belmores, Coldwaters, and Upcliffs. These united First Men were able to successively defeat several Andal warlords, including the Corbrays, Graftons, and the Hammer of the Hills. However, Robar's army was routed in the Battle of the Seven Stars, and control of the Vale was claimed by the Andals of House Arryn.[8] Those First Men who did not submit to the Arryns fled into the Mountains of the Moon and became the Vale mountain clans.[6]

  4. According to legend, at some point in time at the Nightfort, the Rat Cook served an Andal king, possibly Tywell II Lannister or Oswell I Arryn, a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the king, the king's son.
  5. The Andals began to invade the westerlands after they conquered the Vale and the riverlands. Tybolt Lannister, the King of the Rock, defeated the first Andal warlord, and the next few attacks were also successfully defended by House Lannister.[15]

    As the Andals continued to march west, however, Kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages between their bannermen and the most powerful of the warlords. The children of the Andals were brought to Casterly Rock to serve as wards but also hostages. After the death of King Gerold III, his daughter's husband, the Andal Ser Joffrey Lydden, took the Lannister name. Other houses formed by the intermarriages included Houses Brax, Drox, Jast, Kyndall, Lefford, Marbrand, Parren, Sarsfield, and Serrett. In contrast to most First Men kings, the support of the Andals allowed the Kings of the Rock to expand their power.[15]

Arryns three times intermarried with Targaryens. First marriage - Daella Targaryen + Rodrick Arryn. Their only child was Aemma Arryn, and Daella died after giving birth to her daughter. Second marriage - Aemma married back into Targaryen family (Viserys I Targaryen). Thus Targaryen genes, from those two marriages, weren't added in to gene pool of Arryn family. Third marriage: Alys Arryn and Rhaegel Targaryen, they had three children Aelor and Aelora (that married with each other, but died young without leaving any offsprings), and Daenora (that married with her cousin Aerion Targaryen, had with him a son - Maegor, but all three of them died). Thus with this third marriage not only Targaryens genes weren't added into gene pool of Arryn family, but also whatever Arryn genes were added into gene pool of Targaryens, were removed from there two generations later, with death of infant Maegor.

And Lannisters never intermarried with Targaryens.

So from where else, those two families could have taken their traits of blond hair and blue eyes, if not from their common ancestors - Andals?

And in mountains of The Vale, and mountains of Casterly Rock, members of those two houses, managed to keep their original gene pool mostly intact. Because they lived in distant secluded places, protected by mountains from frequent visits of outsiders. And thus people, that lived in those areas, instead intermarried with each other. That sort of things happen in real world in mountain villages, or on small populated islands, etc.

It's a logical assumption that blond hair and blue eyes are characteristical traits of Andals. 

The bolded contradicts The World of Ice and Fire which says that the Lannister's origins go back to Lann the Clever and they did marry in with Andals.

That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own.

...

The list is long, and many are the legends, for there is scarce a noble house in all the Reach that does not boast of descent from one of Garth Greenhand's countless children. Even the heroes of other lands and kingdoms are sometimes numbered amongst the offspring of the Greenhand. Brandon the Builder was descended from Garth by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, these tales would have us believe, whilst Lann the Clever was a bastard born to Florys the Fox in some tales or Rowan Gold-Tree in others. However, Lann the Clever's descent from Garth Greenhand is a tale told in the Reach. In the westerlands, it is more oft said that Lann cozened Garth Greenhand himself by posing as one of his sons (Garth had so many that ofttimes he grew confused), thus making off with part of the inheritance that rightly belonged to Garth's true children.

...

Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that styling on him posthumously. The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed "the Lion" or "the Golden," for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that house, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years. Loreon might have been the first Lannister to style himself King of the Rock, but it was a title his sons and grandsons and their successors continued to bear for thousands of years. However, the boundaries of their kingdom did not reach their full scope until the arrival of the Andal invaders. The Andals came late to the westerlands, long after they had taken the Vale and toppled the kingdoms of the First Men in the riverlands. The first Andal warlord to march an army through the hills met a bloody end at the hands of King Tybolt Lannister (called, unsurprisingly, the Thunderbolt). The second and third attacks were dealt with likewise, but as more and more Andals began moving west in bands large and small, King Tyrion III and his son Gerold II saw their doom ahead.

Rather than attempting to throw back the invaders, these sage kings arranged marriages for the more powerful of the Andal war chiefs with the daughters of the great houses of the west. Cautious men, and well aware of what had happened in the Vale, they took care to demand a price for this largesse; the sons and daughters of the Andal lords so ennobled were taken as wards and fosterlings, to serve as squires and pages and cupbearers in Casterly Rock...and as hostages, should their fathers prove treacherous.

 

 

 

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On 09.12.2017 at 10:25 PM, Lollygag said:

Is Robert's hair light, medium or dark brown?

Robert's hair color is the same as his father's. And his father is Littlefinger.

Evidence:

  1. They have same hair color.
  2. They have similar body type. Short and slender.
  3. Petyr already impregnated Lysa once before.
  4. They continued being secret lovers, even after Lysa's marriage. Lysa convinced her husband to bring Petyr to King's Landing (for the two of them to keep banging <- that was her motivation, while Petyr's motivation was to gain power): "Lysa convinced her husband to give Petyr control of customs at Gulltown around 289 AC, where he increased incomes tenfold, displaying his skill with finances.[5] Jon Arryn, Hand of the King for King Robert I Baratheon, eventually brought Petyr to court in King's Landing, and within three years, he was named master of coin and appointed to the small council.[5][7] "

They were separated for some time, until Petyr was "invited" into KL in 289, where three years later he became Master of coin, and member of Small Council. And thus had a cover for his frequent visits, to private chambers of his fellow Council-man Jon Arryn, who lived in Red Keep together with his wife Lysa. Three years later from 289 is a year 291, and Lysa's son Robert was born in 292.

Lysa and Jon married in 283, and for 8 years after that, they didn't had any kids. But on the same year, when Petyr joined Small Council, Lysa finally became pregnant.

1. Time of Petyr's entry, as a member of Small Council, corresponds with time when Lysa became pregnant + 2. Lysa's son has the same hair color as Petyr. + 3. Robert has the same body type as Petyr. + 4. Robert's mother and Petyr are a longtime lovers. = Petyr is Robert's father <- are people still oblivious to this? :huh:

 

My theory, is that the reason for Robert's poor health, is that Lysa was pregnant many times from Petyr. But he didn't let her to keep those babies. And each time after she became pregnant, he convinced her to make an abortion by drinking Moon Tea. She wasn't getting what she wanted - Petyr's baby, until Petyr will get what he wanted - place in Small Council. So when Lysa finally managed to help Petyr, to get what he wanted, he allowed her to keep the baby. So Robert was a reward from Petyr to Lysa, for a job well done.

Unfortunately for Robert, his mother's health and his health also, were irrevocably damaged by multiple consumptions of Moon Tea, and resulting abortions.

On 09.12.2017 at 10:34 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Also, Lysa was able to conceive but not the carry a prengnancy to term. She had at least five pregnancies that ended up in miscarriages. That is a very strong indicative the problem was in her uterus, not in her eggs or her cycling or her hormones and definetely NOT in Jon Arryn's sperm. 

Read above, starting from part Lysa and Jon married.

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Just now, Megorova said:

Robert's hair color is the same as his father's. And his father is Littlefinger.

Evidence:

  1. They have same hair color.
  2. They have similar body type. Short and slender.
  3. Petyr already impregnated Lysa once before.
  4. They continued being secret lovers, even after Lysa's marriage. Lysa convinced her husband to bring Petyr to King's Landing (for the two of them to keep banging <- that was her motivation, while Petyr's motivation was to gain power): "Lysa convinced her husband to give Petyr control of customs at Gulltown around 289 AC, where he increased incomes tenfold, displaying his skill with finances.[5] Jon Arryn, Hand of the King for King Robert I Baratheon, eventually brought Petyr to court in King's Landing, and within three years, he was named master of coin and appointed to the small council.[5][7] "

They were separated for some time, until Petyr was "invited" into KL in 289, where three years later he became Master of coin, and member of Small Council. And thus had a cover for his frequent visits, to chambers of his fellow Council-man Jon Arryn, who lived in Red Keep. Three years later from 289 is a year 291, and Lysa's son Robert was born in 292.

Lysa and Jon married in 283, and for 8 years after that, they didn't had any kids. But on the same year, when Petyr joined Small Council, Lysa finally became pregnant.

1. Time of Petyr's entry, as a member of Small Council, corresponds with time when Lysa became pregnant + 2. Lysa's son has the same hair color as Petyr. + 3. Robert has the same body type as Petyr. + 4. Robert's mother and Petyr are a longtime lovers.  = Petyr is Robert's father <- are people still oblivious to this? :huh:

If I had to guess, I'd say Robert is LF's, but in real life, blonde + bright red can produce light brown and blonde + dark red/auburn can produce light to dark brown. Hair color isn't proof here, it just adds to the other more persuasive evidence.

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On 10.12.2017 at 0:24 AM, LynnS said:

Or Ned figured out that Cersei's kids weren't Robert's because gold always yielded to coal.

Not always, even in ASOIAF, - dark-haired Mariah Martell had a blond son Maekar; dark-haired Elia Martell had a son Aegon with fair-colored hair; dark-haired Jocelyn Baratheon had a blond daughter Rhaenys.

That's because same as in real world, (simplified explanation with usage of B or b genes),

  • Jocelyn Baratheon was Bb and inherited her b - genes of light coloring, from her mother Alyssa Velaryon, then more b genes were added from Jocelyn's husband Aemon I Targaryen, and as result their daughter Rhaenys was "blond";
  • Elia and Mariah Martells also were Bb. Martell got their b genes from Mariah's grandfather Drazenko Rogare, and from Elia's great grandmother Daenerys Targaryen, + maybe in their family there were other carriers of b genes, that added more chances for their offsprings to eventually be born with bb genes/blond. 

Though I don't remember any cases in ASOIAF, when the dark-haired father (and not dark-haired mother, like from three examples from above), had a blond child.

The closest to it is Ned Stark with his brown hair, and his daughter Sansa with auburn hair, and son Robb with red-brown hair.

And Hoster Tully, who had in his youth brown hair, but all of his three children had auburn hair - Edmure, Catelyn, Lysa.

Auburn hair of children in Ned's and Hoster's cases, is lighter than brown hair color of fathers, thus it sort of like "chestnut not yelding to coal", and not exactly "gold not yelding to coal" from first three examples, with dark-haired mothers and their blond children.

On 10.12.2017 at 0:26 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I'll also add that now we know real world genetics is not as simple as BB/bb/etc unless you're talking fruit flies. :D

I wrote many times, but will repeat again - we're using metod of B or b, i.e. Punett Square,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square for convenience purpose. This method is simple and understandable, but nevertheless provides a sufficient explanation of certain traits that certain characters in ASOIAF, inherited from their ancestors. And which also, so far, has proven in every case, that in ASOIAF genetic works in the same way, as it would have worked if those characters were real people from real world. Like in case from above - blond son Maekar of dark-haired mother Mariah, and so on.

On 10.12.2017 at 2:07 AM, sweetsunray said:

I think it likely that George just happened to pick the firstborn whenever deciding appearances of mixed phenotype marriages with a Targ to have the non-Valyrian features, when the marriage had the following set-up

Targ (aa) and non-Targ (aN) with a being some form of recessive albinism and N being a not-albinistic gene. Very simplistically there's a 50% chance that a child would look like a non-Targ in such a marriage (have aN), and 50 % that it does have Valyrian features (aa). But as a writer, and especially if you have a thematic thing for the "rightful heir" (aka firstborn, regardless of gender) not looking like he or she's supposed to look. When you have emperors and kings in your fantasy series, trouble logically follows whenever the heir to the throne isn't an expected "match": "it's a girl! => let's dance with dragons," or "he doesn't look like a Valyrian => His dad is a bastard, not fathered by the king! Yeah, sure full Valyrian, but wrong brother." There wouldn't be a Dance of Dragons if Viserys I's heir had been a son. Daemon Blackfyre wouldn't have been given Blackfyre if Daeron had been wed to some Valyrian looking woman or a non-Dornish and his heir Baelor hadn't looked so Dornish. Looks don't have that big an impact if you're not the heir or potential rival to the inheritance. 

Mostly :agree:with you. Though people on this forum think, that simple models with just two letters, are not good enough. Majority of them regard themselves, as refined genetic experts, and thus usage of primitive Punnett's method, doesn't bode well with their supperior knowledge of genetic :rolleyes: 

On 10.12.2017 at 2:28 AM, sweetsunray said:

1. Well, I think we can use "rudimentary/simplistic" genetics into explaining George's world building insofar that it's FAR MORE likely for George Martin to use some vague, simplistic Mendelian genetic conditions to paste onto whichever family tree (that is completely unrealistic) than him using real world complex genetics. After all, the author does not have a master in biology. George also wants to write semi-realistic ... with that I mean - George is writing fantasy, not scifi, but he wants it to appear real and similar to our world at "first glance". So, he's not gonna have blonde haired twins have black haired children. That would be just weird to a modern reader. 2. And a black-haired mother isn't going to have a blonde child, an auburn haired child and a black-haired child from the same father either, without providing for some hint that this is either magically caused or some genetic trickery.

Agree with first. But second is wrong. Black-haired mothers with blond children - Mariah Martell and Maekar Targaryen, Elia Martell and Aegon Targaryen, Dyanna Dayne and Aerion and Aegon the Egg Targaryens, Jocelyn Baratheon and Rhaenys Targaryen.

A bit of correction - not exactly black hair, and also not exactly blond, rather dark brown/brown and gold/silver/silver-gold.

Those four women were carriers of Bb genes from their ancestors. Mariah Martell - Drazenko Rogare; Elia - Drazenko and Daenerys Targaryen; Dyanna Dayne from one of her parents, or both of her parents; Jocelyn from her Velaryon mother.

On 10.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

That's where I disagree. I think GRRM purposefully put aside all basic Mendelian genetics. Inharitance of characteristics in Planetos has to do with "who has the stronger seed"

Give me an example of a union between a couple of spouses from different families, that has a child/children, and which one of those two, in your opinion, has the stronger seed.

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Just a little point about incest: incest per se doesn't damage genes, it only increases the chance of passing on the already existing bad genes, like the Habsburgs did. So, unless Craster was already a carrier of some problematic gene variant, his children by his daughters are perfectly healthy and it would take a couple more generations of "crastering" until some problems might start to show, just like with the Targaryens and their mental health and baby deformities.

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@Megorova I interpreted the "gold yelds to coal" line differently than you I guess. From my understanding, even in the books, it applyies only the Baratheons. So a dark-haired Martell with a blond offspring doesn't prove or disprove the line... that line is not about genetics in general, not isn't it about inharitance in the asoiaf world in general, Ned isn't Mendel and he's not trying to figure out how parents pass along their traits... he's just realizing how strong the Baratheon seed is! That line about gold always yielding to coal is about the Baratheon family tree, it is about "the Baratheon seed being strong". As I've said it would be really possible that a Baratheon offspring would have lighter colored hair (say, dark-brown instead os coal-black) with a Baratheon father and fair-haired mother, but that does not seem to ever have happened from the book Ned reads, and it doesn't happen before our eyes either (Gendry with his yellow-haired mother, Edric with a Florent mother that probably has brown hair... and yet both boys have raven-black hair) the colour never seems to fade or become even a shade lighter than coal-black. That's NOT a real-world scenario. That's bending real world genetics with fantasy.

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11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Those four women were carriers of Bb genes from their ancestors. Mariah Martell - Drazenko Rogare; Elia - Drazenko and Daenerys Targaryen; Dyanna Dayne from one of her parents, or both of her parents; Jocelyn from her Velaryon mother.

PLASE get over "Bb"!!!! Hair colour does not work like that!! This is not about being and "expert" in genetics or two letter models not being "good enough". Really. No need to be sarcastic. It's only that it does not reflect reality. Why try and explain inharitance with a system that can't hope to tackle all the necessary aspects of it? It's futile. Hair colour is complex, there are thousands of shades of blond and brown and red, and it does not work with simple dominance: even thought it's not a case of one gene and two variants, one dominant and the other ressesive, we could try and simplify the explanation by stating that when it comes to hair colour, in the real world "Bb" would show a different phenotype than "BB". If your point is that asoiaf is the same as the real world, no fantasy at all necessary, you should get somewhat closer to real world genetics in you explanation of Planetos inharitance. Otherwise you're just making up "laws of inharitance" based on two letters systems that don't apply to the real world and also can't explain what we see in planetos - and that's my point, I see you doing the later.

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18 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

From my understanding, even in the books, it applyies only the Baratheons.

Indeed. Ned doesn't list the results of all the black-hair/blonde pairings but solely of the Baratheon/Lannister pairings, where blonde always yields to black.

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Megorova I interpreted the "gold yelds to coal" line differently than you I guess. From my understanding, even in the books, it applyies only the Baratheons. So a dark-haired Martell with a blond offspring doesn't prove or disprove the line... that line is not about genetics in general, not isn't it about inharitance in the asoiaf world in general, Ned isn't Mendel and he's not trying to figure out how parents pass along their traits... he's just realizing how strong the Baratheon seed is! That line about gold always yielding to coal is about the Baratheon family tree, it is about "the Baratheon seed being strong". As I've said it would be really possible that a Baratheon offspring would have lighter colored hair (say, dark-brown instead os coal-black) with a Baratheon father and fair-haired mother, but that does not seem to ever have happened from the book Ned reads, and it doesn't happen before our eyes either (Gendry with his yellow-haired mother, Edric with a Florent mother that probably has brown hair... and yet both boys have raven-black hair) the colour never seems to fade or become even a shade lighter than coal-black. That's NOT a real-world scenario. That's bending real world genetics with fantasy.

I agree.  The genetics argument is a rabbit hole.  Ned is specifically looking at Baratheon/Lannister pairings in the Book of Lineages; the last two on record being 90 years and 120 years previous.  We're never told about Baratheon issue during those very large gaps.  We only have a description of four bastards that can be verified as Roberts out of sixteen.  Two of their mothers are fair haired.  We don't even have a description of Selyse Florent's hair color if you want to throw Shireen into the mix.   That isn't much to go on.  Ned wouldn't even be able to make that stick if it wasn't for Cersei's confession.

For Ned, this is what Jon Arryn's words mean; it confirms what he has found in his investigation.  But it in no way confirms that all Baratheon children have black hair or blue eyes for that matter.  Not only does dark hair become lighter over time; but light hair becomes darker over time.  

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21 hours ago, Megorova said:

Current people of Arryns and Lannisters families, are blue-eyed blondes. And the only thing that is common between those two families, that live on opposite sides of Westeros continent, and NEVER intermarried, (aside from their similar looks), is that both their houses were established by Andals.

Lannisters are blue-eyed blondes + Arryns are blue-eyed blondes + Lannisters House was established by Andals + Arryns House was established by Andals = common features of Andals is blond hair and blue eyes.

Facts from history of those two houses, that show that they are Andals:

  Reveal hidden contents
  1. Fair-haired, tall, and handsome, the Lannisters are the blood of Andal adventurers who carved out a mighty kingdom in the western hills and valleys. Through the female line they boast of descent from Lann the Clever, the legendary trickster of the Age of Heroes who tricked the members of House Casterly into giving him Casterly Rock[4] during the era of the First Men.[5]
  2. While House Lannister is of mostly Andal descent, Lann is believed to have been descended from the First Men. Some versions of his tale, however, state he was an Andal adventurer from across the Narrow Sea.
  3. The Fingers in what is now the Vale of Arryn was where the Andals first landed to wrest from the First Men.[7] The First Men of the Vale were ruled by numerous petty kings, some of whom allied with the Andals instead of resisting them. The Shells and Brightstones were betrayed by Andal allies, and the Andal Corbrays claimed the Fingers. The Shetts of Gulltown allied with the Andal Graftons against the Royces, but their conflict ended with Gulltown controlled by the Andals.[8]

    King Yorwyck VI Royce and his heirs led much of the resistance of the First Men to the Andals. King Robar II Royce gained the support of the Redforts, Hunters, Belmores, Coldwaters, and Upcliffs. These united First Men were able to successively defeat several Andal warlords, including the Corbrays, Graftons, and the Hammer of the Hills. However, Robar's army was routed in the Battle of the Seven Stars, and control of the Vale was claimed by the Andals of House Arryn.[8] Those First Men who did not submit to the Arryns fled into the Mountains of the Moon and became the Vale mountain clans.[6]

  4. According to legend, at some point in time at the Nightfort, the Rat Cook served an Andal king, possibly Tywell II Lannister or Oswell I Arryn, a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the king, the king's son.
  5. The Andals began to invade the westerlands after they conquered the Vale and the riverlands. Tybolt Lannister, the King of the Rock, defeated the first Andal warlord, and the next few attacks were also successfully defended by House Lannister.[15]

    As the Andals continued to march west, however, Kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages between their bannermen and the most powerful of the warlords. The children of the Andals were brought to Casterly Rock to serve as wards but also hostages. After the death of King Gerold III, his daughter's husband, the Andal Ser Joffrey Lydden, took the Lannister name. Other houses formed by the intermarriages included Houses Brax, Drox, Jast, Kyndall, Lefford, Marbrand, Parren, Sarsfield, and Serrett. In contrast to most First Men kings, the support of the Andals allowed the Kings of the Rock to expand their power.[15]

Arryns three times intermarried with Targaryens. First marriage - Daella Targaryen + Rodrick Arryn. Their only child was Aemma Arryn, and Daella died after giving birth to her daughter. Second marriage - Aemma married back into Targaryen family (Viserys I Targaryen). Thus Targaryen genes, from those two marriages, weren't added in to gene pool of Arryn family. Third marriage: Alys Arryn and Rhaegel Targaryen, they had three children Aelor and Aelora (that married with each other, but died young without leaving any offsprings), and Daenora (that married with her cousin Aerion Targaryen, had with him a son - Maegor, but all three of them died). Thus with this third marriage not only Targaryens genes weren't added into gene pool of Arryn family, but also whatever Arryn genes were added into gene pool of Targaryens, were removed from there two generations later, with death of infant Maegor.

And Lannisters never intermarried with Targaryens.

So from where else, those two families could have taken their traits of blond hair and blue eyes, if not from their common ancestors - Andals?

And in mountains of The Vale, and mountains of Casterly Rock, members of those two houses, managed to keep their original gene pool mostly intact. Because they lived in distant secluded places, protected by mountains from frequent visits of outsiders. And thus people, that lived in those areas, instead intermarried with each other. That sort of things happen in real world in mountain villages, or on small populated islands, etc.

It's a logical assumption that blond hair and blue eyes are characteristical traits of Andals. 

Lannisters aren't blue eyed, they are green eyed, just like Reeds. For the rest of it  @Lollygag is right.

There are also two other blonde characters, Leona Woolfield and her daughter, Wylla Manderly. Wylis is probably Brown haired, as her daughter Wyanfryd is Brown haired.

 

Also Petyr and Robyn don't share hair color as far as we know. Dark =/= Brown. And who else in the Tully family has Brown hair? Grampa Hoster. Lysa had plenty of miscarriages by the way, so her sole child surviving past infancy being sickly is no big deal.

 

New Theory: Hoster + Lysa = Sweet Robyn, because yeah, Targaryens are great. They are the Starks of South of the Neck so everyone wants to be one.

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On 11.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

Some stuff that would not happen in real life and the real life rules of inharitance of characteristics (phenotype) couldn't explain. Let's go to "the seed is strong" thing: first of all, it wouldn't apply to Baratheon women - we're talking seed here.

And that's where misinterpretations begin.

"Seed" is not sperm, "seed" is genes, or rather old word for same concept that in modern times is referred to as genes. Hereditary. Because when referring to females, word "seed" could also be used, and is used. For example in Bible. And other literature, especially about medieval times, or earlier period of history.

Example: after snake seduced Eve to eat the apple, God said to them that he will put an enmity between snake's seed and Eve's seed. Which means he will put an enmity between offsprings of the snake and offsprings of Eve.

Quote

14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou [g]above all cattle, and [h]above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall [i]bruise thy head, and thou shalt [j]bruise his heel.

Also this (not my site ^_^, though I totally agree with the author):

http://www.themisconceptionfiles.com/

Quote

The logic behind patriarchy evaporated in 1900 AD when scientists finally came to the conclusion that there are two parents (male and female), not just one (the male).

Before 1900 scientists and people in general thought the seed of human life was singular, and came from the testicles of men - who 'planted' it in the soil of women.

Seeds are singular. We plant one of them in the ground and it grows into a single plant which has the seeds of future generations of plants. This is exactly how people used to think about human reproduction - with the seed going along the male line, from grandfather to father to son.

The discoveries that led to the turning point of 1900 were kept away from public discussion. The scientists were not keen for people to know they had made a huge and fundamental error, especially as it was an error - an idea - that had provided solid logic for all patriarchal traditions, which they as men enjoyed.

If you ever wondered how men came to have the upper hand in all things, the male-seed idea of reproduction explains a lot:

  • Children belonged to men because they were men's grown seed.
  • Women had no reproductive rights because they did not in 'fact' reproduce.
  • Men had to control the means of their own reproduction - women.
  • Sons continued the male family seed; while girls were an evolutionary dead-end.
  • Inheritance of land went the same way as biological inheritance - along the male line.
  • Men were thought closer to God because they carried the seeds of life; while women were distanced from God because they did not create, only facilitated men's creations.

The facts of life were completely and profoundly wrong for thousands of years, and during that time people came to all kinds of mistaken ideas about the 'nature' of men and the 'nature' of women. To challenge these ideas was blasphemous because if God is the source of 'nature, to challenge it is to challenge God. And also, to suggest reproduction was accomplished by the fusion of two elements (two seeds) smacked of occultism. You could be put to death for arguing against the male-seed reproduction theory.

GRRM is not an uneducated blockhead, he does know that it takes two people to create a child. And characters in his books are also aware of this fact.

All children of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully look more like Tullys, that's because in terms of ASOIAF, Catelyn's seed is stronger than Eddard's seed.

Baelor Targaryen had dark hair and dark eyes of his mother Mariah, in him the seed of Martells were stronger than the seed of Targaryens. Mariah wasn't a man, she had no sperm, nevertheless she had a seed, and that's her genes.

Nettles, a female, was one of dragonseeds.

What Jon said when he was dying "the seed is strong", could mean one of two things - either it's Lannisters' seed that is strong in Cersei's children, or it's Robert's seed that is strong. Whichever of those two things his words meant, the point is how Jon came to this realisation, that the seed is strong: 1. He went thru all known unions between Baratheons and Lannisters, and saw that their offsprings always had dark coloring of Baratheons; 2. He went thru all known "unions" between Robert and his lovers. As result of it he came to conclusion, that in combination with any woman, Baratheons/Robert always produced only dark-haired children. Thus in combination with any women, Robert's seed is stronger than seeds of those women.

If "the seed is strong" is only about Robert's characteristics, then there was no need to go thru all of his lovers, "Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens". People in ASOIAF are aware that it takes two people to make a baby, and that mother is also adding her seed into the mix. The man isn't planting his seed into a woman, the man's seed and woman's seeds are combining together and creating a baby. That's why people never thought that Catelyn's children are not Ned's children, or that Baelor is not son of Daeron II, or that Rhaenys is not daughter of Rhaegar, or that Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella are not Robert's children; because the sole fact alone, that children doesn't look like their father, doesn't mean that he isn't their father. Because, as I already said, they know that it takes two seeds to created a baby - mother's seed and father's seed.

Thus "seed" is genes, or offsprings. So females also do have a seed, only different kind of seed.

On 11.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

Also, it makes no sense at all in the real world that "the gold always yields to coal"

Ned's thought was not about yelding of gold to coal in general, it was specifically about gold of Lannisters VS coal of Baratheons.

Though there's cases when gold didn't yelded to coal:

dark-haired women and their light-haired children -

  • Mariah Martell and Maekar Targaryen,
  • Elia and Aegon,
  • Jocelyn Baratheon and Rhaenys Targaryen,
  • Betha Blackwood and her children Jaehaerys II and Shaera Targaryens,
  • Dyanna Dayne and her children Aerion and Aegon V,

(her son Daeron had pale brown hair and blond beard, could be that Dyanna had two-colored hair similar to Gerold Dayne's (he has silver hair with midnight black streak). In Daynes family there are both - people with blond hair (Edric Dayne) and people with dark hair (Ashara Dayne). So it could be that Dyanna had brown hair with blond streak. Dyanna's husband Maekar had silver-gold hair. While Daeron inherited his mother's darker features, his brothers had lighter hair like his father's. Thus in case with Aerion and Aegon V, their mother's coal yelded to their father's gold.);

dark-haired men and their light-haired children -

  • Drogo and Rhaego,
  • Baelor and Valarr,

(Jena Dondarrion probably had red-gold hair, because that's a family trait of Dondarrions - Berric, and Manfred from The Hedge Knight; Jena's red-gold didn't entirely yelded to Baelor's brown color, because their son had pale brown hair with a bright streak thru it.)

  • Hoster Tully
  • and Ned Stark had brown hair, but their children had auburn hair, which is lighter than brown.

(In Dany's vision her son Rhaego had her silver-gold hair and violet eyes, even though his father Khal Drogo had black hair and black eyes <- Dany's gold didn't yelded to Drogo's coal. We know only who was Drogo's father, another Khal - Bharbo. But we don't know who was his mother, and his maternal grandparents, and his paternal grandmother. Could be that among Drogo's ancestors were Valyrians, so he was carrier of Bb genes, and with combination with Dany bb, their son Rhaego can have same silver-gold hair as his mother <- Rhaego supposedly died, but the point is, in that dream grown up Rhaego had looks given to him by GRRM, so based on this, if Rhaego survived he would have had same hair color as Dany. And thus his case is another one of examples when gold didn't yelded to coal.)  

On 11.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

Robert even has a targ grandma, it wouldn't be impossible for him to have fair haired kids in the real world, but it is in Planetos where the "Baratheon seed is strong".

1. Rhaelle (bb) + Ormund (BB) = Steffon (Bb)

The only coloring that ever was given in the books about any Estermonts, is that Andrew Estermont had brown eyebrows.

Steffon (1B2b) + Cassana Estermont (3B4B) or (5B6b) = 1B3B, 1B4B, 2b3B, 2b4B <- Robert and Stannis, Renly; or 1B5B, 1B6b, 2b5B, 2b6b <- possible blond child, Robert, Stannis and Renly.

2. Rhaelle (1b2b) + Ormund (7B8b) = Steffon (1b7B, 1b8b, 2b7B, 2b8b)

Steffon (1b7B, 2b7B) + Cassana (3B4B) or (5B6b) = 1b3B, 1b4B, 7B3B, 7B4B, 2b3B, 2b4B <- Robert, Stannis, Renly, or 1b5B, 1b6b, 7B5B, 7B6b, 2b5B, 2b6b <- possible blond child, Robert, Stannis and Renly.

Six models, in all of them Robert is BB, and thus all his children can be ONLY dark-haired: 1B3B, 1B4B, 1B5B, 7B3B, 7B4B, 7B5B.

On 11.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

Also most male Baratheons looking so much like each other: uncanny. Not unheard of, but really unlikely.

Three brothers - Robert, Stannis and Renly, have a very similar looks, what's unlikely in that? Real world examples:

  1. Alec, Daniel, William, and Stephen Baldwin.
  2. Emma Watson and her brother Alex, brother Toby and their twin-sisters Lucy and Nina.
  3. Kristen Stewart and her brothers Cameron and Dana.
  4. Three Culkin brothers - Macaulay, Rory and Kieran.
  5. Mary-Kate, Ashley, Elizabeth Olsen.
  6. For three siblings to have similar looks is unlikely. Then how about five? - Joaquin Phoenix, his brother River, sisters Liberty, Summer and Rain <- and those are their real names ^_^
  7. Another five - John Cusack, his brother Bill, their sisters Joan, Susie and Ann. All five are actors. Out of them the most alike are John, Joan and Susie.
  8. Another five - Patricia Arquette, Rosanna, Alexis, Richmond and David. Sisters look alike, and brothers look alike.
  9. And don't forget about The Kelly Family (musical group created in 70s, partially still active). There was TWELVE of them.

Members of The Kelly family were 12 children of Daniel Jerome Kelly, and his two wives.

Four children of first wife Joanne: Danny (1961), Caroline (1962), Kathy (1963) and Paul (1964). Eight children of his second wife Barbara: John (1967), Patricia (1969), Jimmy (1971), Joey (1972), Barby (1975), Paddy (1977), Maite (1979), Angelo (1981). 

On this photo:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51r6heoAGQL.jpg

first row - Maite (white sweater), Angello (brown sweater, it's a boy), Barby (green dress), Paul (the furthest in first row);

second row - Caroline (girl with red), Kathy (dark-haired), Paddy (white and grey clothes, it's a boy);

third row - Jimmy (guy with loose hair), John (the guy in headband).

So full siblings there are the furthest guy in first row, plump girl and dark-haired girl. Other six are their half-siblings, and full siblings between themselves.

Three more, that are full siblings to second group (of six):

Danny - https://kelly-family.pl/foty/dodatki/Biography/biographydanny.jpg

Patricia (in brown jacket), and Joey (in white shirt) - https://img.cncenter.cz/img/18/new_article/1517530-img-kelly-family-v0.jpg?v=0

The four others on this photo are Paddy (in a scarf), Angello (in glasses), Maite (girl in lower level) and Jimmy (with crossed hands).

 

Links to photos of siblings from those 9 examples:

Spoiler

1. Baldwins:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~smason/photos/baldwin.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OQAhsxNM1Bo/Vbup6vnkq9I/AAAAAAAAAQY/7cnCuWWW8xM/s1600/Baldwin%2BBrothers.jpg

 2. Watsons:

Emma and Alex

https://images.successstory.com/img_people/family/620Xauto/emma48_1468993058.jpg

Twins

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31500000/Emma-s-Siblings-emma-watson-31530554-340-443.jpg

Toby

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BG2AnKJCIAENFGW.jpg

All five

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3ktcH5SHNLA/Us9tU1B8zjI/AAAAAAAAFts/9eMZ_-xiPg4/s1600/Watson+2..jpg

Grown up Emma and Alex doesn't look much like their younger three siblings. Though look at Emma's photos when she was younger, and compare her with Toby and twins:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01758/20000823-emma_1758634i.jpg

http://images.vogue.it/imgs/galleries/peole-are-talking-about/musica-teatro-cinema/007692/01-3596805_0x440.jpg

3. Kristen Stewart and her brothers Cameron and Dana, the tallest guy is their adopted brother Taylor:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0r9aBo7eqBs/UGxgCVRFY0I/AAAAAAAABnM/tYw8unEF6dY/s640/kristen-stewart-family.jpg

4. Culkin brothers:

http://cdn1.alloy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Culkins.jpg

5. Olsen sisters:

https://img.suggest.com/filter:scale/slides/4/1/6/9/7/2/4169723399/9671c6f15532a6e61e2975a7e3b5e36068c32c52.jpeg?mw=615 

6. Phoenixes:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/44/b8/7e44b854388cbb261cfa3b4ec0075c51--vegetarian-times-joaquin-phoenix.jpg

7. Cusacks (this is a bad photo, but all of them are on it):

https://celebrityxyz.com/i/i/a/n/n/ann-cusack-family-father-richard-mother-nancy-sisters-joan-susie-brothers-bill-john.jpg

8. Arquettes (Alexis was a guy before):

https://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Alexis-Arquette-David-Arquette-Courteney-Cox.jpg

This is their earlier photo:

http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Arquette-Family-Young-Alexis-Arquette.jpg

9. Kellys:

http://e-cdn-images.deezer.com/images/artist/617a548af646125f3f61b78460601add/500x500.jpg

In Kelly family there are seven brothers and five sisters, and all 12 of them are alike. So three Baratheon brothers looking alike, are not in fact uncanny or unlikely.

On 11.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

And Jon who is the speaking image of his uncle with whom he shares at most 25% of his genetic makeup (assuming R+L=J here) but there is no trace whatsoever of his father who provided 50% of the DNA?

Rhaegar was tall. But not as tall as male Starks. So Jon's smaller height (if compared with Ned's), is what he got from Rhaegar. Also Jon inherited his father's beauty. Starks males and females had/have average looks. Lyanna was pretty, but not beautiful, she was more a "next door lovely girl", than beautiful princess.

On 11.12.2017 at 3:55 AM, Lady Dacey said:

So I assume asoiaf genetics doesn't work like real world genetics, albait being very similar... while there a twists and bends where GRRM whishes there to be, there's no need for a theory of it's own.

Concept that I advocate on this thread, is that all pseudo-theories in regard to genetic in ASOIAF, are wrong, because GRRM is using real world genetic, of a very primitive and simple level, even simpler than B's and b's. And that in ASOIAF isn't happening any magical mambo jambo with characters' genes.

On 11.12.2017 at 7:12 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Perhaps the presence of dragons acts as if it were an epigenetic switch to those who have the “right” qualities. ( or vice versa) The presence of potential dragon riders allows the eggs to develop and hatch. Or maybe it is pherophantasmonal;)

One of my theories, is that dragons were brought on Planetos, on giant space ship. And their original masters were aliens. They used on dragons and Valyrian a biotechnology, and programmed dragons to recognize on bio-level, and obey to certain individuals. Like modern cellphones are programmed to recognize their owners by their fingerprint, or retina scan. There's also weapon that "recognize" its master by DNA (in Judge Dredd movie), motherboard computer that recognize spaceship's captain by DNA (WALL-E cartoon, Lex Tv-series).

Some people commented that ASOIAF is a fantasy and not sci-fi, so something like that can't happen on Planetos.

Four contrarguments:

  1. Dragons are able to recognize/feel Valyrians, and they are submitting only to Valyrians. Dragon eggs hatch only if given to a Targaryen. So dragons are pre-programmed on genetical level to know that Valyrians are their masters/owners.
  2. Wights are zombies. The Others can't raise as wights all corpses all over Planetos. They need first to get to those dead bodies, and infect them with their "winter magic/zombie virus". So wights are not a magical creatures, they are a biological weapon.
  3. Wearwood Tree Network of Children is based on the same concept as cellphone network - to have a signal for your phone in certain area, there need to be a cellphone towers, and if there's no towers nearby you, your cellphone won't have a connection. Children and 3EC can see only those regions, where there are wearwood trees. Where the trees were cut out, they don't have a signal.
  4. Vampires can turn into bats. Vendigos can turn into wolves. Witches can turn into whatever they want. And for that kind of transformation of their appearance, they don't need anything. While Faceless Men, to steel someone appearance, need to actually take off that person's face, and make a mask out of it. So their method is not a magic, it's a biotechnology.
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On 2017-12-10 at 10:07 PM, Megorova said:

Nearly all Yronwoods (aside from Gwyneth) are blue-eyed blondes. 

Looks like Gwyneth is a bastard. Unless her mother is not blue-eyed blonde. 

Quote

Gwyneth was but twelve, a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in that house of blue-eyed blondes. She was clever, though, as quick with words as with her hands, and fond of telling Quentyn that he had to wait for her to flower, so she could marry him.

 

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@Megorova I found this very very good piece on hair colour, I hope you read it. It's straight forward and does not require previous knowledge. 

http://www.indiana.edu/~oso/lessons/Genetics/RealColors.html

authors in ALL books, fantasy or not, are always creating characters and their looks. No one needs to study genetics to create a character and it's family... the authors will simply draw from real life. That's what Martin does. Only he created a world where a family has had the same family trait (raven-black hair) for generations... as the piece above explains, NOT A POSSIBLE SCENARIO IN REAL LIFE. Messing with uppercase Bs won't make it happen in real life nor will it make sense in asoiaf world. 

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