Jump to content

Genetic coding- 100% real world or fantasy for literature?


The Fattest Leech

Recommended Posts

@Megorova

Just to reply on your dragons recognizing Valyrian DNA; We don't know if it Works like that or not. We are told the "Dragonseeds" were able to ride dragons because they carried Valyrian, or more specifically, Targaryen blood. But it is never proven, nor is it ever proven that all these people were really some descendant through "rite" of the first night. Even then, Valyrian freehold was large and even after it's collapse, there are still many people around carrying those features like in Old Volantis or Lys, but do you know how many dragonlord houses were there? Only forty. I think you can notice the problem here, if it was Valyrian DNA related.

If you are suggesting it is something related to the DNA of dragonhouses specifically, then still it wouldn't work, with not all members being dragonriders or non-members dragon riding.

Finally, if we take it to the individual level, like a trait carried on chromosome X as some suggest, it still doesn't work, as seen in dance of the dragons, Valyrian children with Hightower mothers riding dragons.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2017-12-11 at 3:57 AM, Megorova said:

er Laenor and Princess Rhaenyra had three sons, Princes Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon, the last named after Joffrey Lonmouth. It was noted none of the children resembled either Laenor or their mother in appearance, causing many to suspect that the children's real father was Ser Harwin Strong.[2]"

They married when Laenor was 20 years old, and he died when he was 26 years old, in 120. First son was born in 114, second in 115, third in 117. Also he supposedly fathered two bastards - Addam in 114, and Alyn in 115. So in span of four years, 114-117, gay man fathered FIVE children? And those two bastards were legitimized because of Corlys Velaryon, who people suspected of being their real father.

So maybe, if people suspect adultery, then there actually was adultery? :huh:

It is possible that those three, really were children of Laenor, but with adding of all facts together, it seems very very unlikely.

It's not just unlikely, it's not possible. Both Rhaenyra and Laenor looked Valyrian, so they had recessive genes (bb alleles according Punnett square). Their children couldn't be dark haired.

More chances that Robert is real father of Cersei's children. Robert's grandma was Targaryen princess, so he could have recessive Valyrian gene. Robert's Valyrian gene combined Cersei's golden blond would result in golden blond (like Cersei) child.  Chances were 50/50. Chances for three blond children in row are 12,5 to 87,5 -that's unlikely, but still possible. Intermediate colors are also possible (at least in real life).

The samples Ned found in the book were 90-120 years old:

Quote

Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

Dunk and Egg stories took place 90 years ago. Targaryen princess (daughter of Egg) wasn't married to Baratheon yet. And it seamed there were no more marriages between Lannisters and Baratheons after Baratheon wed Targaryen princess.

So Ned's conclusion (as well as Aryn's) about "gold yielding before the coal" could not be applied to Robert's children.

O course, if Robert didn't inherit his grandma gene, he could be BB, so he had no chance to have blond children.

We know about five black haired children of Robert: Mya, Bella, Gendry, Edrick, Barra. But we don't know how all their mothers looked like, so bastards could have inherited hair color from their mothers.  Barra's mother was red haired, Gendry's mother was blond. But at least one of Robert's mistresses was black haired:

Quote

… what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them.

I suspect Becca is Mya's mother, because of big eyes association with owls:

Quote

Mya liked to say that her father had been a goat and her mother an owl

So Mya could have inherited her black hair from her mother, not from Robert.

Similar  situation with bastards of Oberyn Martell. Tyene Sand is blue eyed and golden haired. I would suspect she was not Oberyn's daughter, but Oberyn had Valyrian ancestry (princess Daenerys), so he was possible Valyrian genes carrier. Oberyn could have blond or even Valyrian looking children. Other  Oberyn's daughters are dark haired, but their mothers also were dark haired (except from Lady Nym's mother, and I am not sure about Obara's mother).

Same with Robert. If he was carrier of Valyrian gene, he could have blond or even Valyrian looking children.

 

I don't really believe Cersei's children are Robert's :D.  But chances that at least one child - Joffrey, Myrcella or Tommen - is Robert's are pretty good. As well as chances that some of unknown Robert's bastards are blond.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11.12.2017 at 8:37 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Val, a wildling is also a blonde with blue/grey eyes. Wildlings don't even have access to Andal genes, let alone Valyrian ones. Where did she get those traits if it was an Andal defining one?

Who said that Val is blonde because she has Andal genes? She's blonde because her ancestors were carriers of b genes. But what exactly were those b genes are unknown. Could be that her ancestors were Andals, or Valyrians, or someone from not as far in the past.

First of all, how can a wildling child to be a carrier of bb genes? The answer is simple. On The Wall there's all sorts of people, that were sent there as a punisment, or as assigment, from all over Westeros. Or people like Sam, or Benjen, that were sort of unneeded in their families.

Some people from Essos, that are carriers of Valyrian genes, could have come to Westeros, sailed to upper part of it, and arrived to The Eastwatch by the sea. Sometimes during their raids, wildlings use boats to sail around eastern part of The Wall, to get on this side. Fairly possible, that during their raids wildling-men kidnapped pretty blonde girls with Valyrian blood, that came from Essos. Or wildling-girls seduced pretty blonde boys-foreigners, and gave birth to their offsprings, that as result of their half-Valyrian make up, were carriers of Bb genes.

Then one dark haired carrier of Bb genes crossed with another carrier of Bb genes, and as resul some of their children was born blondes with bb genes.

Aside from abduction/seduction route, some carriers of Bb genes, that were watchers on The Wall, escaped to the other side. Lived with wildlings, mixed with them, and thus added their b genes into genetic pool beyond The Wall.  

On 11.12.2017 at 11:37 PM, Lollygag said:

The list is long, and many are the legends, for there is scarce a noble house in all the Reach that does not boast of descent from one of Garth Greenhand's countless children.

Unlike places where Arryns and Lannisters live, The Reach is an open place (aside of small southern part close to/in Read Mountains). Also The Reach has vast fields, numerous farms and gardens. It's a region where there is always a lot of work, and thus there is always a need in new workers. So people from all over Westeros go there, to work, and eventually settle there. Reachmen's Andal genes got mixed with others to the point where there is barely any Andal features left in any of them.

On 11.12.2017 at 11:37 PM, Lollygag said:

Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that styling on him posthumously. The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed "the Lion" or "the Golden," for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that house, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years. Loreon might have been the first Lannister to style himself King of the Rock, but it was a title his sons and grandsons and their successors continued to bear for thousands of years. However, the boundaries of their kingdom did not reach their full scope until the arrival of the Andal invaders.

Rather than attempting to throw back the invaders, these sage kings arranged marriages for the more powerful of the Andal war chiefs with the daughters of the great houses of the west. Cautious men, and well aware of what had happened in the Vale, they took care to demand a price for this largesse; the sons and daughters of the Andal lords so ennobled were taken as wards and fosterlings, to serve as squires and pages and cupbearers in Casterly Rock...and as hostages, should their fathers prove treacherous.

Some sources say that Lann the Clever was also Andal. So first we have Lann, who maybe was Andal, and later more Andals came in their lands during Invasion, and intermarried with nobility and smallfolk (that was during reign of King Tyrion III and his son Gerold II), then daughter of Gerold III married with Joffrey Lydden - who was also Andal.

Quote

Lannister kings also wed their children to Andals, and when King Gerold III died without male issue, a council crowned the Andal husband of Gerold's only daughter, Ser Joffrey Lydden, who took the Lannister name. Thus the Lannisters became an Andal house, though their First Men name lived on.[5]

Ser Joffrey, a knight of House Lydden, was married to the only daughter of King Gerold III Lannister, who was of First Men ancestry. When the king died without male issue, Joffrey was crowned by a council and took the name of House Lannister.[1]

So Lannisters are "triple Andals".

On 12.12.2017 at 8:39 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Lannisters aren't blue eyed, they are green eyed, just like Reeds.

Green or blue not the point here, because both colors are recessive to brown color.

The green eye allele is dominant over blue, and recessive to brown.

Blue < Green < Brown.

So in case with Lannisters they have blonde hair and green eyes, and Arryns have blonde hair and blue eyes. And if mixed with a person that has brown hair and brown eyes, the child won't be blonde and blue/green-eyed (that's in case if brown eye color of that parent is brown/brown; or brown/green / brown/blue but out of those two alleles the one passed to child will be brown and not green or blue).

So the point still stands - Lannisters and Arryns have purer Andals blood, than any other great houses in Westeros. If they mixed too ofter with First Men, then they wouldn't have had green/blue eyes or blonde hair.

http://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/green-eyed-parents-brown-eyed-child

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/brown-eyed-parents-blue-eyed-kids and green-eyed kids.

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask203 brown, green, blue chart.

9 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Hair colour is polygenic. There's no simple dominance there. Get your head around it, please. 

No one needs to study genetics to create a character and it's family... the authors will simply draw from real life. That's what Martin does.

Probably Martin didn't studied genetic, but you're correct that there's no need to study it, to give certain looks to certain character, and GRRM used as basis, how hereditary works in real world. He didn't took into account polygenic factor of hair color, or how much eumelanin and pheomelanin had ancestors of that character. He didn't even bothered with BBbb's. What he did, while determining how certain character should look, is that he took into account who were ancestors of that character, what his/her parents looked like, whether there was in their family infusion of genes from other families with totally different features, than in his/her family. And he gave to all characters, looks based on that data. 

So three things:

  1. GRRM based looks on same principles as hereditary works in real world.
  2. He didn't bothered even with BBbb's. He used OBSERVATION of how hereditary works in real world, solely observation of people's outer appearances, not their genetic models.
  3. He obviously didn't bothered with genetic multifactors, he used only the most basic data. 

So you get your head around the fact, that GRRM isn't using multifactorial genetic models, when he's determining looks of his characters. Though he is mindful of real world genetic, but only of a very basic level.

9 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Only he created a world where a family has had the same family trait (raven-black hair) for generations...

A mere 300 years. 19 generations.

(300/16 = 18,75 ~ 19, and there was 19 generations of Targaryen Kings starting from Aegon, who was half-brother of Ormund, founder of House Baratheon.)

Look at Targaryens - in span of those 300 years, in main branch of the family, they had only three not blonde Targaryens, and all three close in time - Baelor, Valarr, and maybe Duncan The Small.

In 19 generations, Targaryens' "blonde genes" that are recessive, got "polluted" only three times. So it's not unlikely that in those 300 years, "black genes" of Baratheons that are dominant, weren't "polluted" even once (at least not visibly, because even if some b genes got mixed in, it wasn't visible, the carrier still had dark hair).

Baratheons live in a region similar to real world's Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria or Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan.

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/214-the-blonde-map-of-europe

The point is, if there's no people with light-colored hair, living in that area, then families living there won't have any light-haired kids, for many many many generations. Maybe FOREVER. So who cares about 300 years :rolleyes:

Quote

as the piece above explains, NOT A POSSIBLE SCENARIO IN REAL LIFE.

Not possible? -> Say that to Japanese, or inhabitants of Turkey, and Israel, and Italy. Do they have many blondes there?

Also you're not taking into account that people in Planetos don't have cars, trains, airplains, so they don't travel as frequent or as far as modern population of real world. So if Stormlanders have mostly black of brown hair, and they live on those lands for many generations, and they rarely got injections of genes from other regions, then it is possible for Baratheons to have dark hair, not only for a mere 300 years, but for thousands of years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

Val, a wildling is also a blonde with blue/grey eyes. Wildlings don't even have access to Andal genes, let alone Valyrian ones. Where did she get those traits if it was an Andal defining one?

Ok, I am content to let this thread stay as interesting as it has become. There is still no evidence that the author has mapped out all of the DNA codes going back 300+ years. He is a journalist, historian, and lover of myth and sci-fi, and story teller above all. That speaks for itself. 

However, when one starts to poke at Val, I will interject :D

Val is of the free folk, and she specifically has Honey colored hair. That honey colored hair is very important to the story, and a contrived DNA sequencing has nothing to do with it. Val does not have pale blonde hair, nor does she have Lannister gold hair. Val is honey colored. 

And there is a reason why we are told, in story, that Dorne and the North are more alike than the other five Kingdoms, and that is because the author likes to have history repeat, just with a twist. 

—-The stony Dornishmen were the mountain folk, fair of hair and skin, mostly descended from the First Men and the Andals;

—-Dorne has more in common with the distant Norththan either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the Dragons ... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

GRRM isn't using multifactorial genetic models

I never said he did. Actually my point is that he didn't use any models at all - just like every other author creating a story, he draw from real life. And because it's fantasy, if he needed some unlikely trait to linger, linger it did. 

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is of the free folk, and she specifically has Honey colored hair. That honey colored hair is very important to the story, and a contrived DNA sequencing has nothing to do with it. Val does not have pale blonde hair, nor does she have Lannister gold hair. Val is honey colored. 

Dark-honey colour, according to Jon. 

Not every blond is related, not every purple-eyed person is related, not every high-cheekboned person is related. Like most widlings Val probably has some first man ancestors. I believe it's safe to say there is some amount of genetic variation in every population. I think it's stupid to assume all Andals were blond and all First Men were dark-haired and dark-eyed. Likely there was some degree of variation in each population, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Megorova I found this very very good piece on hair colour, I hope you read it. It's straight forward and does not require previous knowledge. 

http://www.indiana.edu/~oso/lessons/Genetics/RealColors.html

 Martin based looks of his characters on visual observations from real life.

If you see a person with brown hair, you don't think whether he/she has BB genes or Bb genes, and furthermore you don't think about that person's hair color, in terms of modern advanced genetic, with inclusion of multifactors.

If you see a brown-haired child, with brown-haired father and blonde mother, you think that the child got his/her hair color from his/her father. And to instantly come to this conclusion, you don't need to draw a Punnett's square, or to use more advanced calculations with inclussion of multifactors, to determine what is what.  

Also though in that article there are 22 brown hair versions, still only one brown gene exists. Shade of brown, is not another gene, it's the same gene. And what shade of color the carrier of certain gene will have in the end, depends on amount of melanin, in that persons body. The more melanin - the darker color, less melanine - lighter shade. In case with brown gene, in addition of certain amount of melanine, the person can have any shade of brown color, actually even more than those 22 shades from that article.

But still there are only one brown "color gene", one blond, and a second pair is red/non-read.

Though in case with ASOIAF, Targaryens, Baratheons, Lannisters and Martells, all have only non-red gene in second pair. Because there was no red-heads among them. So in their second pair all of them carry only non-red/non-red genes. So there's no point in their case to use a two pairs model. Those families have only recessive red genes, and in combination with other recessive red genes, they will give to hair a non-red color, determined by first pair of genes. Second pair of genes doesn't take participation in creating color of their hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair_color

Quote

Two types of pigment give hair its color: eumelanin and pheomelanin. Pheomelanin colors hair orange and red. All humans have some pheomelanin in their hair. Eumelanin, which has two subtypes of black or brown, determines the darkness of the hair color. A low concentration of brown eumelanin results in blond hair, whereas a higher concentration of brown eumelanin results in brown hair. High amounts of black eumelanin result in black hair, while low concentrations result in white hair.

The genetics of hair colors are not yet firmly established. According to one theory, at least two gene pairs control human hair color.

One phenotype (brown/blonde) has a dominant brown allele and a recessive blond allele. A person with a brown allele will have brown hair; a person with no brown alleles will be blond. This explains why two brown-haired parents can produce a blond-haired child. However, this can only be possible if both parent are heterozygous in hair color- meaning that both of them have one dominant brown hair allele and one recessive allele for blond hair, but as dominant traits mask recessive ones the parents both have brown hair. The possibility of which trait may appear in an offspring can be determined with a Punnett square.

The other gene pair is a non-red/red pair, where the non-red allele (which suppresses production of pheomelanin) is dominant and the allele for red hair is recessive. A person with two copies of the red-haired allele will have red hair.

The two-gene model does not account for all possible shades of brown, blond, or red (for example, platinum blond versus dark blond/light brown), nor does it explain why hair color sometimes darkens as a person ages. Several gene pairs control the light versus dark hair color in a cumulative effect. A person's genotype for a multifactorial trait can interact with the environment to produce varying phenotypes.

Whether brown/blonde/red hair color will have a darker shade or lighter shade, depends on amounts of pigment melanin. And shade is not color.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

Dark-honey colour, according to Jon. 

Delicious ;)

Quote

Not every blond is related, not every purple-eyed person is related, not every high-cheekboned person is related. Like most widlings Val probably has some first man ancestors.

True. And those like Val who come from beyond the wall have the least “mixing” to them anyway- as far as Andal, etc goes. Not that it matters to the current story much. 

Quote

I believe it's safe to say there is some amount of genetic variation in every population. I think it's stupid to assume all Andals were blond and all First Men were dark-haired and dark-eyed. Likely there was some degree of variation in each population, right?

Absolutely. And to top it off, they don’t have any special snowflakes or firestarters to hide, so it serves no literary purpose to try and break it all down to this level. The linger, as you called it. 

57 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I never said he did. Actually my point is that he didn't use any models at all - just like every other author creating a story, he draw from real life. And because it's fantasy, if he needed some unlikely trait to linger, linger it did. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

1. Just to reply on your dragons recognizing Valyrian DNA; We don't know if it Works like that or not.

2. We are told the "Dragonseeds" were able to ride dragons because they carried Valyrian, or more specifically, Targaryen blood.

1. We do know it:

  • 1. they put dragon eggs in baby's cradle, and if the baby had correct DNA, then the dragon hatched.
  • 2. Dany felt "life" in one of her dragon eggs, the embryo in that egg responded to her presense. She didn't always kept them close to her body. But when she was giving birth to a child, and later was bedridden for quite some time, that amount of time, while she was staying unmoving in her tent, were enough for the embryos to feel and "recognize" her. Or they were finally able to "read the data", because when Dany gave birth to her child, for a short amount of time there was two Targaryens. 

Either dragons responded because 1. they were finally able to "scan" Dany's data, or 2. they has awekened because there was two Targaryens, and combination of some of their genes gave correct code, needed for dragon eggs to start development of embryos inside, or 3. the carrier of DNA code was Rhaego. So when he was born, the dragon eggs responded to his presence. But then Rhaego either "melted", or was kidnapped (which is my preferable version of events).

2. Targaryens have the purest Valyrian blood, than any other Valyrians.

Targaryen came to Dragonstone in 102 BC.

"Aenar set sail, moving House Targaryen and their five dragons to the island Dragonstone.[4] Other Houses of the narrow sea of Valyrian descent include the Velaryons of Driftmark and and the Celtigars of Claw Isle.[4] "

"House Velaryon is an ancient and proud house, with the blood of old Valyria in its veins.[4][8] The Velaryons left Valyria before the Targaryens,[1] and settled on the island of Driftmark in the narrow sea."

Doom of Valyria happened in 114 BC. Dance of the Dragons happened in 129-131 AC.

Between 102 BC and 129 AC, 231 years passed. Targaryens (main line) intermarried with:

1. Aerion Targaryen + Valaena Velaryon.

2. Aenys I Targaryen + Alyssa Velaryon.

3. Daella Targaryen + Rodrick Arryn = Aemma Arryn (50% Targaryen).

her brother and sister Baelon + Alyssa = Viserys I Targaryen.

4. Viserys + Aemma Arryn = Rhaenyra Targaryen.

all other marriages were between Targaryen and Targaryen.

So in span of those 231 years, in gene pool of Rhaenyra's ancestors aside from Valyrian blood of two Velaryons, were added only Arryn's blood, and even it was "watered down". Rhaenyra was 25% Arryn, and 75% Valyrian.

Between Doom of Valyria and Dance of the Dragons were born 10 generations of Targaryens. In span of those 10 generations/231 years, other Valyrians that survived The Doom, were intermarrying with non-Valyrian rulers of those lands where they had to settle permanently. So their Valyrian blood was severely watered down, in comparition with Targaryens' purer Valyrian blood.

If dragons were programmed to obey to Valyrians, then those Valyrians that mixed with other races, weren't pure enough to carry in their blood identification gene code, that dragons needed to "scan", to both - begin development of embryo in dragon's egg, and to obey to dragonrider. 

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Even then, Valyrian freehold was large and even after it's collapse, there are still many people around carrying those features like in Old Volantis or Lys, but do you know how many dragonlord houses were there? Only forty. I think you can notice the problem here, if it was Valyrian DNA related.

If you are suggesting it is something related to the DNA of dragonhouses specifically, then still it wouldn't work, with not all members being dragonriders or non-members dragon riding.

Finally, if we take it to the individual level, like a trait carried on chromosome X as some suggest, it still doesn't work, as seen in dance of the dragons, Valyrian children with Hightower mothers riding dragons.

Yes, Valyrian DNA related and dragons DNA related.

It's like 40 keys (codes) to 40 locks.

Or maybe there was lesser amounts of keys and locks. There was 40 dragonlord families, but could be that many of them shared similar DNA, and thus several families were carriers of identical codes. And that way a person from one family of dragonlords could have commanded not only dragons of his/her family, but also dragons from some other families.

Most likely the code is not entire string of someone's DNA, but rather it is one gene, or a combination of several genes. And some descendands of Valyrians have in their DNA that piece, needed for "unlocking" dragon's protection/resistance, while others don't have it. And it doesn't matter whether that person is a family member or not, if he/she has in his/her blood that code, that he/she can be a dragonrider.

7 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Similar  situation with bastards of Oberyn Martell. Tyene Sand is blue eyed and golden haired.

Really? :blink: How did I missed this?

This proves my theory that Elia was indeed Bb. There was 37,5% chances for Elia/her siblings to be a carrier of Bb genes, even if aside from Drazenko Rogare and Daenerys Targaryen, there was no more addition of bb genes in gene pool of Martells.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is of the free folk, and she specifically has Honey colored hair. That honey colored hair is very important to the story, and a contrived DNA sequencing has nothing to do with it. Val does not have pale blonde hair, nor does she have Lannister gold hair. Val is honey colored. 

The question is whether her honey is a shade of blond, or a shade of brown.

So she can be either of those - bb - blonde, or Bb - light brown.

Or maybe even BB, but she has a lack of vitamin D, and thus her naturally brown color paled to honey shade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

The question is whether her honey is a shade of blond, or a shade of brown.

So she can be either of those - bb - blonde, or Bb - light brown.

Or maybe even BB, but she has a lack of vitamin D, and thus her naturally brown color paled to honey shade.

No, it is not the question. We know nothing of Val's parentage (it's not important to the story besides we knowing she is not of Jon's clan) and she and Dalla were probably "sisters" by occupation- not relation.

The purpose is she has honey hair, and what role honey means to the story, and the fact that she is a she-bear, and the song Bear and the Maiden Fair is for her and Jon and the mutiny at Castle Black. (I have a breakdown of the song if you want me to share it with you? I have to find it :P)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I give up. I think I've defended my point with pretty sound reasoning. And @Megorova you're mistaking 'gene' for 'allele'. B and b for yellow or green peas are different alleles for the same gene on the same locus. There is no "B gene" and "b gene". The gene is but one (melanin producing gene) with several different possible alleles (and not only B and b ). The idea that "bb" is blond, be it silver or golden, and "Bb" is brown, be it light or dark, is so ludicrous I can't even begin to discuss it. 

@The Fattest Leech I never thought about Val and Dalla being sisters only by occupation, not relation. Would you care to expand on that? I find Val an intriguing character, specially for her speech, which seems much more educated than most wildlings'. I look forward to see who's gonna lick the honey off her hair :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I give up. I think I've defended my point with pretty sound reasoning. And @Megorova you're mistaking 'gene' for 'allele'. B and b for yellow or green peas are different alleles for the same gene on the same locus. There is no "B gene" and "b gene". The gene is but one (melanin producing gene) with several different possible alleles (and not only B and b ). The idea that "bb" is blond, be it silver or golden, and "Bb" is brown, be it light or dark, is so ludicrous I can't even begin to discuss it. 

@The Fattest Leech I never thought about Val and Dalla being sisters only by occupation, not relation. Would you care to expand on that? I find Val an intriguing character, specially for her speech, which seems much more educated than most wildlings'. I look forward to see who's gonna lick the honey off her hair :D

Leech's no doubt gonna sort you out w/ all sorts of very, very interesting links. As to the bold, why, that's going to be Jon the bear of course. ;)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

No, it is not the question. We know nothing of Val's parentage (it's not important to the story besides we knowing she is not of Jon's clan) and she and Dalla were probably "sisters" by occupation- not relation.

The purpose is she has honey hair, and what role honey means to the story, and the fact that she is a she-bear, and the song Bear and the Maiden Fair is for her and Jon and the mutiny at Castle Black. (I have a breakdown of the song if you want me to share it with you? I have to find it :P)

+1

And note that GRRM is insistant with the (symbolic) link he makes between Val and the bear's stuff : 

- she is sent by Jon to find Tormund Giantsbane/Husband to Bears (a bear (father) character like Jorah with Dany or Jeor Mormont with the sworn brothers)

- she goes out wearing a bearskin (brown and grey) :

Quote

Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam. (Jon 8 ADWD)

(funnily, Sam during AGOT also appears as a she-bear, especially when associated with the moon)

- she comes back wearing bearskin (white)

Quote

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings.(Jon X ADWD)

Definitely nothing to do with genetic, but with litterature.^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/13/2017 at 8:51 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

No, it is not the question. We know nothing of Val's parentage (it's not important to the story besides we knowing she is not of Jon's clan) and she and Dalla were probably "sisters" by occupation- not relation.

The purpose is she has honey hair, and what role honey means to the story, and the fact that she is a she-bear, and the song Bear and the Maiden Fair is for her and Jon and the mutiny at Castle Black. (I have a breakdown of the song if you want me to share it with you? I have to find it :P)

Where are you going with this?  Are we talking about beserkers and their spirit wives, the valkyries

https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/berserkers-and-other-shamanic-warriors/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where are you going with this?  Are we talking about beserkers and their spirit wives, the valkyries

https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/berserkers-and-other-shamanic-warriors/

 

Actually yes, in a manner of sorts. The difference being how GRRM seems to be interpreting these ideas and using them in his own work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Actually yes, in a manner of sorts. The difference being how GRRM seems to be interpreting these ideas and using them in his own work. 

Interesting, since the Nones are similar or synonymous with the Valkyries.  The Nones are also called the Jotun (ice giants) so I wonder how this figures into the story of the Night's King.  

I didn't realize that Val had left with a brown bear skin and returned with a white skin.  Off-topic, but if you get a thread going on the subject, I'll be interested.      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Interesting, since the Nones are similar or synonymous with the Valkyries.  The Nones are also called the Jotun (ice giants) so I wonder how this figures into the story of the Night's King.  

I didn't realize that Val had left with a brown bear skin and returned with a white skin.  Off-topic, but if you get a thread going on the subject, I'll be interested.      

Meet me in the message room ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

The character whose surname is Martell or Baratheon will never have Valyrian look despite of his Targaryen and Dayne ancestors. It is fact.

It is, but the point is, is that those people are also carriers of Valyrian genes. So their children could look like Valyrians. Mariah Martell and Jocelyn Baratheon were carriers of Bb genes, B - dark coloring from Martell/Baratheon parent, and b - light coloring from their Targaryen parent/ancestor. If a person has BB genes, he/she has dark hair, if bb then light coloring, but if that person has Bb, then he/she has dark coloring, but can give a b-gene to his/her offsprings. So if other parent is also a Bb, or bb, then the child will get from both parent two b genes, will be bb, and will have light coloring. Daughter of Jocelyn Baratheon, Rhaenyra Targaryen had Valyrian looks and light-colored hair. Son of Mariah Martell, Maekar Targaryen had light silver-gold hair. Son of Elia Martell, Aegon Targaryen had fair-colored hair. Elia Martell had Bb genes, seems that Oberyn also had Bb genes, because one of his daughters is blond and blue-eyed. So either that girl's mother was blond and carrier of bb, or she was Bb and had dark hair, but with combination of her b-gene, and Oberyn's b-gene, their child was born blonde.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If a person has BB genes, he/she has dark hair, if bb then light coloring, but if that person has Bb, then he/she has dark coloring, but can give a b-gene to his/her offsprings. So if other parent is also a Bb, or bb, then the child will get from both parent two b genes, will be bb, and will have light coloring

Well, no. That's wrong, even using this basic model. If both parents are Bb, their offspring might be bb, but it's not a certainty as you state. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...