Genetic coding- 100% real world or fantasy for literature?

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, no. That's wrong, even using this basic model. If both parents are Bb, their offspring might be bb, but it's not a certainty as you state. 

I'm stating that that is so, only in case of Mariah, Elia, Oberyn and Jocelyn. All four of them had blond kids. Also I calculated all possible gene models for Jocelyn, Mariah and Elia, and all three had a possibility to be carriers of Bb genes. So in combination with a bb-blond-Targaryen parent, their children had

1B2b + 3b4b = 1B3b, 1B4b, 2b3b, 2b4b - 50% possibility to be blond and 50% to have dark hair.

This is Jocelyn's ancestors, and in the end of spoiler, her gene-models (gene models of her ancestors are based on description of their looks in the books, and those that are uncknown I used all three BB, Bb and bb).

Spoiler

1. In case if Aerion's mother was carrier of bb genes, Targaryen line:

2. In case if Aerion's mother was carrier of Bb genes, Targaryen line:

3. In case if Aerion's mother was carrier of BB genes, Targaryen line:

Daemion Targaryen + wife = Aerion Targaryen.

1) bb + bb = bb, 2) bb +Bb = Bb or bb, 3) bb + BB = Bb

Aerion Targaryen + Valaena Velaryon = Visenya, Aegon, Rhaenys.

1) bb + bb = bb, 2) Bb + bb = Bb or bb, or bb + bb = bb, 3) Bb + bb = Bb or bb

None of their three children were carriers of Bb genes, because if they were, then they wouldn't have had Targaryen looks. Thus even if there was a B gene in their father, it wasn't transferred further to Aegon I and his sisters.

(Aerion 1b2b or 3B4b) + (Valaena 21b22b) = 1b21b, 1b22b, 2b21b, 2b22b, (3B21b), (3B22b), 4b21b, 4b22b <- Aegon, Rhaenys, Visenya. Six possible gene models.

Aegon Targaryen + Rhaenys Targaryen = Aenys I Targaryen.

bb + bb = bb

(Aegon 1b21b, 1b22b, 2b21b, 2b22b, 4b21b, 4b22b) + (Rhaenys 1b21b, 1b22b, 2b21b, 2b22b, 4b21b, 4b22b) = 60 combinations, out of them 16 not repetitive = (Aenys 1b1b, 1b22b, 21b1b, 21b22b, 1b2b, 21b2b, 21b21b, 1b4b, 21b4b, 22b2b, 22b22b, 22b4b, 2b2b, 2b4b, 4b4b)

Aenys I Targaryen + Alyssa Velaryon = Jaehaerys I, Alysanne.

bb + bb = bb, bb

(Aenys 1b1b, 1b22b, 21b1b, 21b22b, 1b2b, 21b2b, 21b21b, 1b4b, 21b4b, 22b2b, 22b22b, 22b4b, 2b2b, 2b4b, 4b4b) + (Alyssa 23b24b) = 10 models = 1b23b, 1b24b, 2b23b, 2b24b, 4b23b, 4b24b, 21b23b, 21b24b, 22b23b, 22b24b <- Jaehaerys, Alysanne.

Jaehaerys I Targaryen + Alysanne Targaryen = Aemon I Targaryen, and 8 other children.

bb + bb = bb

(Jaehaerys 1b23b, 1b24b, 2b23b, 2b24b, 4b23b, 4b24b, 21b23b, 21b24b, 22b23b, 22b24b) + (Alysanne 1b23b, 1b24b, 2b23b, 2b24b, 4b23b, 4b24b, 21b23b, 21b24b, 22b23b, 22b24b) = 1b1b, 1b2b, 1b4b, 1b21b, 1b22b, 1b23b, 1b24b, 2b23b, 4b23b, 21b23b, 22b23b, 23b23b, 23b24b <- Aemon.

Aemon I Targaryen + Jocelyn Baratheon = Rhaenys Targaryen.

bb + ? = bb

To identify what pair of genes Jocelyn had, let's go back to Baratheon line.

Aerion Targaryen (1b2b or 3B4b) + mistress (? - 5b6b, 7B8b, 9B10B) = Orys Baratheon (BB or Bb).

Orys had dark hair and dark eyes, so he was either BB or Bb.

1b2b + 5b6b = 1b5b, 1b6b, 2b5b, 2b6b <- 100% light, not Orys' traits.

1b2b + 7B8b = 1b7B, 1b8b, 2b7B, 2b8b <- 50% dark or 50% light.

1b2b + 9B10B = 1b9B, 1b10B, 2b9B, 2b10B <- 100% dark.

3B4b + 5b6b = 3B5b, 3B6b, 4b5b, 4b6b <- 50% dark or 50% light.

3B4b + 7B8b = 3B7B, 3B8b, 4b7B, 4b8b <- 75% dark or 25% light.

3B4b + 9B10B = 3B9B, 3B10B, 4b9B, 4b10B <- 100% dark.

Based on this Orys' gene model could have been one of this 15:

1b7B, 1b9B, 1b10B, 2b7B, 2b9B, 2b10B, 3B5b, 3B6b, 3B7B, 3B8b, 3B9B, 3B10B, 4b7B, 4b9B, 4b10B.

Orys Baratheon + Argella Durandon = child (father or mother of Robar Baratheon)

(1b7B, 1b9B, 1b10B, 2b7B, 2b9B, 2b10B, 3B5b, 3B6b, 3B7B, 3B8b, 3B9B, 3B10B, 4b7B, 4b9B, 4b10B) + (?) = (?)

Argella Durandon could be BB, Bb, or bb.

Argella's genes - 11B12B, 12B13b, 13b14b.

1. (Orys 1b7B, 1b9B, 1b10B, 2b7B, 2b9B, 2b10B, 3B5b, 3B6b, 3B7B, 3B8b, 3B9B, 3B10B, 4b7B, 4b9B, 4b10B) + (Argella 11B12B, 12B13b, 13b14b) = 40 gene models for child of Orys and Argella (OB+AD).

(OB+AD) + spouse (?) = Robar Baratheon (?)

Spouse - 15B16B, 17b18b, 15B17b, 15B18b, 16B17b, 16B18b - six models.

(40 models for (OB+AD) 1b11B, 1b12B, 7B11B, 7B12B, 2b11B, 2b12B, 9B11B, 9B12B, 10B11B, 10B12B, 3B11B, 3B12B, 5b11B, 5b12B, 6b11B, 6b12B, 8b11B, 8b12B, 4b11B, 4b12B, 1b13b, 7B13b, 2b13b, 9B13b, 10B13b, 3B13b, 5b13b, 6b13b,  8b13b, 4b13b, 1b14b, 7B14b, 2b14b, 9B14b, 10B14b, 3B14b, 5b14b, 6b14b, 8b14b, 4b14b) + (Spouse 15B16B, 17b18b, 15B17b, 15B18b, 16B17b, 16B18b) = 56 gene models for Robar Baratheon.

Robar Baratheon + Alyssa Velaryon = Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheons.

(Robar 1b15B, 2b15B, 3B15B, 4b15B, 5b15B, 6b15B, 7B15B, 8b15B, 9B15B, 9B15B, 10B15B, 11B15B, 12B15B, 13b15B, 14b15B, 1b16B, 2b16B, 3B16B, 4b16B, 5b16B, 6b16B, 7B16B, 8b16B, 9B16B, 9B16B, 10B16B, 11B16B, 12B16B, 13b16B, 14b16B, 1b17b, 2b17b, 3B17b, 4b17b, 5b17b, 6b17b, 7B17b, 8b17b, 9B17b, 9B17b, 10B17b, 11B17b, 12B17b, 13b17b, 14b17b, 1b18b, 2b18b, 3B18b, 4b18b, 5b18b, 6b18b, 7B18b, 8b18b, 9B18b, 9B18b, 10B18b, 11B18b, 12B18b, 13b18b, 14b18b) + (Alyssa 19b20b) = 1b19b, 2b19b, 3B19b, 4b19b, 5b19b, 6b19b, 7B19b, 8b19B, 9B19b, 10B19b, 11B19b, 12B19b, 13b19b, 14b19b, 15B19b, 16B19b, 17b19b, 18b19b, 1b20b, 2b20b, 3B20b, 4b20b, 5b20b, 6b20b, 7B20b, 8b20b, 9B20b, 10B20b, 11B20b, 12B20b, 13b20b, 14b20b, 15B20b, 16B20b, 17b20b, 18b20b <- 36 models Boremund and Jocelyn.

Jocelyn Baratheon + Aemon I Targaryen = Rhaenys Targaryen.

(Jocelyn 1b19b, 2b19b, 3B19b, 4b19b, 5b19b, 6b19b, 7B19b, 8b19B, 9B19b, 10B19b, 11B19b, 12B19b, 13b19b, 14b19b, 15B19b, 16B19b, 17b19b, 18b19b, 1b20b, 2b20b, 3B20b, 4b20b, 5b20b, 6b20b, 7B20b, 8b20b, 9B20b, 10B20b, 11B20b, 12B20b, 13b20b, 14b20b, 15B20b, 16B20b, 17b20b, 18b20b) + (1b1b, 1b2b, 1b4b, 1b21b, 1b22b, 1b23b, 1b24b, 2b23b, 4b23b, 21b23b, 22b23b, 23b23b, 23b24b) = 140 models for Rhaenys Targaryen.

Gene models of Rhaenys, with Bb genes in them:

3B1b, 7B1b, 9B1b, 10B1b, 11B1b, 12B1b, 15B1b, 16B1b, 3B2b, 7B2b, 9B2b, 10B2b, 11B2b, 12B2b, 15B2b, 16B2b, 3B4b, 7B4b, 9B4b, 10B4b, 11B4b, 12B4b, 15B4b, 16B4b, 3B21b, 7B21b, 9B21b, 10B21b, 11B21b, 12B21b, 15B21b, 16B21b, 3B22b, 7B22b, 9B22b, 10B22b, 11B22b, 12B22b, 15B22b, 16B22b, 3B23b, 7B23b, 9B23b, 10B23b, 11B23b, 12B23b, 15B23b, 16B23b, 3B24b, 7B24b, 9B24b, 10B24b, 11B24b, 12B24b, 15B24b, 16B24b.

Gene models of Rhaenys, with bb genes in them:

1b1b, 2b1b, 4b1b, 5b1b, 6b1b, 8b1b, 13b1b, 14b1b, 17b1b, 18b1b, 19b1b, 20b1b, 1b2b, 2b2b, 4b2b, 5b2b, 6b2b, 8b2b, 13b2b, 14b2b, 17b2b, 18b2b, 19b2b, 20b2b, 1b4b, 2b4b, 4b4b, 5b4b, 6b4b, 8b4b, 13b4b, 14b4b, 17b4b, 18b4b, 19b4b, 20b4b, 1b21b, 2b21b, 4b21b, 5b21b, 6b21b, 8b21b, 13b21b, 14b21b, 17b21b, 18b21b, 19b21b, 20b21b, 1b22b, 2b22b, 4b22b, 5b22b, 6b22b, 8b22b, 13b22b, 14b22b, 17b22b, 18b22b, 19b22b, 20b22b, 1b23b, 2b23b, 4b23b, 5b23b, 6b23b, 8b23b, 13b23b, 14b23b, 17b23b, 18b23b, 19b23b, 20b23b, 1b24b, 2b24b, 4b24b, 5b24b, 6b24b, 8b24b, 13b24b, 14b24b, 17b24b, 18b24b, 19b24b, 20b24b.

Out of those 140 gene models, 56 are Bb, and 84 are bb. Probability for Rhaenys to have dark coloring was 40%, and 60% to have light coloring.

From her mother Jocelyn Baratheon, Rhaenys could have inherited this b genes - 1b, 2b, 4b, 5b, 6b, 8b, 13b, 14b, 17b, 18b, 19b, 20b. And from side of her father Aemon Targaryen - 1b, 2b, 4b, 21b, 22b, 23b, 24b.

Genes of her ancestors: Aerion Targaryen (1b, 2b, 4b), his mistress (5b, 6b, 8b), Argella Durandon (13b, 14b), spouse of child of Orys Baratheon and Argella (17b, 18b), Alyssa Velaryon (19b, 20b), Valaena Velaryon (21b, 22b), Alyssa Velaryon (23b, 24b).

 

Now lets take an example, where all characters, whose coloring isn't known for sure, we will take as BB - Orys Baratheon's  wife Argella Durandon, their child and that child's spouse, and their grandson Robar Baratheon. Then:

Robar Baratheon (BB) + Alyssa Velaryon (bb) = Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheons (Bb and Bb).

Jocelyn Baratheon (Bb) + Aemon I Targaryen (bb) = Rhaenys Targaryen (Bb, Bb, bb, bb) - even in this case Rhaenys still had 50% of chances to inherit Valyrian looks.

In case if Orys Baratheon, his wife Argella, their child and that child's spouse, all four were Bb:

Child of O&A (1B2b) + spouse (3B4b) = 1B3B, 1B4b, 2b3B, 2b4b <- Robar Baratheon's possible gene models.

Robar Baratheon (1B3B, 1B4b, 2b3B, 2b4b) + Alyssa Velaryon (5b6b) = 1B5b, 1B6b, 3B5b, 3B6b, 4b5b, 4b6b, 2b5b, 2b6b <- Jocelyn Baratheon.

Jocelyn Baratheon (1B5b, 1B6b, 3B5b, 3B6b, 4b5b, 4b6b, 2b5b, 2b6b) + Aemon I Targaryen (7b8b) = Rhaenys Targaryen (1B7b, 1B8b, 5b7b, 5b8b, 6b7b, 6b8b, 3B7b, 3B8b, 4b7b, 4b8b, 2b7b, 2b8b) - four Bb and eight bb, 1/3 chances for Rhaenys inheriting dark coloring, and 2/3 chances inheriting light coloring.

 

So even in worst case scenario, if among Rhaenys' ancestors, whose looks we don't know, there were carriers of dark color genes, she still had 50% chances to be born with Valyrian looks.

Mariah and Elia

Spoiler

6. Aliandra + Drazenko Rogare.

5. Their son + his spouse = Mariah and Maron.

4. Maron + Daenerys Targaryen.

3. Their son + his spouse = Elia's mother.

2. Elia's mother + her husband.

1. Doran, Elia, Oberyn.

Elia can be Bb. Even if aside from Drazenko and Daenerys, there was no more blonds, or carriers of Bb genes amongst her other ancestors.

Aliandra (1B2B) + Drazenko (3b4b) = 1B3b, 1B4b, 2B3b, 2B4b.

Son (1B3b, 1B4b, 2B3b, 2B4b) + Spouse (5B6B) = 1B5B, 1B6B, 3b5B, 3b6B, 4b5B, 4b6B, 2B5B, 2B6B <- Mariah Martell was one of those 4 gene models. To her son Baelor she passed her B gene, while to her son Maekar she passed her b gene. For grandchildren of Aliandra and Drazenko there was a 50/50 possibility to be BB or Bb.

From here on, let's take for Maron both kinds of models, 1-Bb and 2-BB:

1.1. Maron (3b5B, 3b6B, 4b5B, 4b6B) + Daenerys (7b8b) = 7b3b, 7b5B, 8b3b, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b4b, 8b4b <- their son. There was 50% of probability for Maron's son to be blond/light-haired, and 100% for him to be a carrier of Bb genes.

1.2. Son (7b3b, 7b5B, 8b3b, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b4b, 8b4b) + Spouse (9B10B) = 9B7b, 9B3b, 10B7b, 10B3b, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B4b, 10B4b <- Elia's mother. 8 models out of 12. Possibility for her to be a carrier b gene was 2/3.

1.3. Elia's mother (9B7b, 9B3b, 10B7b, 10B3b, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B2B, 10B2B) + Husband (11B12B) = 11B9B, 11B7b, 12B9B, 12B7b, 11B3b, 12B3b, 11B10B, 12B10B, 11B5B, 12B5B, 11B8b, 12B8b, 11B6B, 12B6B, 11B2B, 12B2B <- Doran, Elia, Oberyn. Chances for Elia to be a carrier of Bb genes were 37,5%, 6 Bb models out of 16 possible combinations.

2.1. Maron (1B5B, 1B6B, 2B5B, 2B6B) + Daenerys (7b8b) = 7b1B, 7b5B, 8b1B, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b2B, 8b2B <- their son.

2.2. Son (7b1B, 7b5B, 8b1B, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b2B, 8b2B) + Spouse (9B10B) = 9B7b, 9B1B, 10B7b, 10B1B, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B2B, 10B2B <- Elia's mother. 4 models out of 12. Possibility for her to be a carrier b gene was 1/3.

2.3. Elia's mother (9B7b, 9B1B, 10B7b, 10B1B, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B2B, 10B2B) + Husband (11B12B) = 11B9B, 11B7b, 12B9B, 12B7b, 11B1B, 12B1B, 11B10B, 12B10B, 11B5B, 12B5B, 11B8b, 12B8b, 11B6B, 12B6B, 11B2B, 12B2B <- Doran, Elia, Oberyn. Chances for Elia to be a carrier of Bb genes were 25%, 4 Bb models out of 16 possible combinations.

Elia's mother gave birth to 5 children, Elia was her fourth child. Thus Elia's 25%, are exactly that one child with Bb genes out of four.

Elia (Bb) + Rhaegar (bb) = Rhaenys (Bb), Aegon (bb)

Actually any child of that woman had a 25% possibility to be a carrier of Bb genes.

Oberyn (1B2b) + mistress (3b4b) = Tyene Sand (1B3b, 1B4b, 2b3b, 2b4b) - 50% blonde, 50% dark-haired.

Obeyn (1B2b) + mistress (5B3b) = Tyene Sand (1B5B, 1B3b, 2b5B, 2b3b) - 25% blonde, 75% dark-haired.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎13‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 11:43 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Ok, I am content to let this thread stay as interesting as it has become. There is still no evidence that the author has mapped out all of the DNA codes going back 300+ years. He is a journalist, historian, and lover of myth and sci-fi, and story teller above all. That speaks for itself. 

However, when one starts to poke at Val, I will interject 

Val is of the free folk, and she specifically has Honey colored hair. That honey colored hair is very important to the story, and a contrived DNA sequencing has nothing to do with it. Val does not have pale blonde hair, nor does she have Lannister gold hair. Val is honey colored. 

And there is a reason why we are told, in story, that Dorne and the North are more alike than the other five Kingdoms, and that is because the author likes to have history repeat, just with a twist. 

—-The stony Dornishmen were the mountain folk, fair of hair and skin, mostly descended from the First Men and the Andals;

—-Dorne has more in common with the distant Norththan either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the Dragons ... 

Hey I am all for Val, one of my favorite characters. Just pointing out she is first man. As you say, Stony Dornishmen and Northmen have a lot in common, because they are (mostly) firstmen too.

[Lady Dacey]

Do we agree all or at least the gray majority of the wildling are of First Men descent, with very little to none Andal/Valyrian/Rhoynar influence? Ok. I give you Jon XII in Dance, describing the wildling hostages:

"Almost all the boys were thin, some past the point of gauntness, with spindly shanks and arms like twigs. That was no more than Jon expected. Elsewise they came in every shape and size and color. He saw tall boys and short boys, brown-haired boys and black-haired boys, honey blonds and strawberryblonds and redheads kissed by fire, like Ygritte. He saw boys with scars, boys with limps, boys with pockmarked faces. Many of the older boys had downy cheeks or wispy little mustachios, but there was one fellow with a beard as thick as Tormund's."

No description of eye-colour is given because Jon is observing from afar, but there must be a lot of variation too. 

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Do we agree all or at least the gray majority of the wildling are of First Men descent, with very little to none Andal/Valyrian/Rhoynar influence? Ok. I give you Jon XII in Dance, describing the wildling hostages:

"Almost all the boys were thin, some past the point of gauntness, with spindly shanks and arms like twigs. That was no more than Jon expected. Elsewise they came in every shape and size and color. He saw tall boys and short boys, brown-haired boys and black-haired boys, honey blonds and strawberryblonds and redheads kissed by fire, like Ygritte. He saw boys with scars, boys with limps, boys with pockmarked faces. Many of the older boys had downy cheeks or wispy little mustachios, but there was one fellow with a beard as thick as Tormund's."

No description of eye-colour is given because Jon is observing from afar, but there must be a lot of variation too. 

Thanks for the quote, this is what I've been trying to say.

They are descendants of First Men who were on the other side of the Wall when it was built, or crossed to the other side for this reason or that like Vale "Wildlings". They number in tens of thousands (thirty thousand when Jon arrived), no way a single member of the watch occasionaly impregnating a wildling will make much difference, especially since most who join would probably be of first men descend themselves. Kidnapping women also doesn't work since smallfolk or noble people of the North are of first men descent with no way of getting themselves Andal DNA. Only exception would be White Harbor but even then they would be of first men blood for the majority.

 

Below is something similar your post reminded me

Quote

Ignoring them all, Dany walked slowly down the line of slave soldiers. The girls followed close behind with the silk awning, to keep her in the shade, but the thousand men before her enjoyed no such protection. More than half had the copper skins and almond eyes of Dothraki and Lhazerene, but she saw men of the Free Cities in the ranks as well, along with pale Qartheen, ebon-faced Summer Islanders, and others whose origins she could not guess. And some had skins of the same amber hue as Kraznys mo Nakloz, and the bristly red-black hair that marked the ancient folk of Ghis, who named themselves the harpy's sons. They sell even their own kind. It should not have surprised her. The Dothraki did the same, when khalasar met khalasar in the sea of grass.

Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."

 

The Grey and blue eyes made me think that some of them are perhaps related to first men, what do you make of it?

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The Grey and blue eyes made me think that some of them are perhaps related to first men, what do you make of it?

Blue could be from Andals or Valyrians.

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

1. no way a single member of the watch occasionaly impregnating a wildling will make much difference, especially since most who join would probably be of first men descend themselves.

2. Kidnapping women also doesn't work since smallfolk or noble people of the North are of first men descent with no way of getting themselves Andal DNA.

2. Who said about kidnapping northeners? I said that they would be more interested in kidnapping pretty blond foregners.

For example Jorah Mormont is a northener, but his second wife, Lynesse Hightower, had blond hair. They lived on Bear island.

If one blonde girl from The Reach came as far as Bear Island, there obviously could be more blond people in The North, that are not northeners, but came to live there because of various circumstances.

For example some lord was exiled by King, to join Nights Watch. His family followed after him, and settled in the village near The Wall. Lord father who is a carrier of Bb genes, his wife, also Bb, and their half a dozen blond kids. So when wildlings were raiding that settlement, they kidnapped pretty blond children and raised them as wildlings. All of them added b gene into gene pool beyond The Wall.

1. For example one blond Watcher escaped from The Wall. He's pretty, so wildling girls will be pursuing him. Let's say that he's so popular, that he has a new "girlfriend" every week. And all of them want to get pregnant, and give birth to beautiful children, like him. So that's 50 women per year. Even if mothers are all dark-haired carriers of BB genes, then in mix with bb blond father, all 50 children will be carriers of Bb.

Let's say 16 years later, those 50 children will intermarry and make 25 couples of parents with Bb genes. With combination like that, if they will have 4 children, then there's possibility that they will have one child with BB genes, two with Bb, and one with bb - blond.

16 more years later, those 25 blond children will also intermarry, make 12 couples, and each couple will give birth to 4 children. That's 48 blond children.

Their 50 siblings with Bb genes will also intermarry and create 25 couples, each will have 4 children, and out of them 25 will be BB, 50 will be Bb, and 25 will be bb.

So 34 years after that single blond man came to wildlings, out of his great grandchildren, there will be 73 blond carriers of bb genes, and 50 more carriers of Bb genes.

If in span of 34 years one blond man created 73 blond offsprings (half of them males), and 50 Bb carriers, then in another 34 years, his 36 blond great grandsons will create 2628 bb carriers and 1800 Bb carriers.

103 years after his arrival there will be 191,844 of his blond descendants.

Of course that one "evolutionary hero" could have married with only one woman, and she gave birth to only two of his children, and both were carriers of Bb genes. But it doesn't change the point - even one carrier of bb genes, is adding a variety in a pool gene of wildlings.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Blue could be from Andals or Valyrians.

2. Who said about kidnapping northeners? I said that they would be more interested in kidnapping pretty blond foregners.

For example Jorah Mormont is a northener, but his second wife, Lynesse Hightower, had blond hair. They lived on Bear island.

If one blonde girl from The Reach came as far as Bear Island, there obviously could be more blond people in The North, that are not northeners, but came to live there because of various circumstances.

For example some lord was exiled by King, to join Nights Watch. His family followed after him, and settled in the village near The Wall. Lord father who is a carrier of Bb genes, his wife, also Bb, and their half a dozen blond kids. So when wildlings were raiding that settlement, they kidnapped pretty blond children and raised them as wildlings. All of them added b gene into gene pool beyond The Wall.

1. For example one blond Watcher escaped from The Wall. He's pretty, so wildling girls will be pursuing him. Let's say that he's so popular, that he has a new "girlfriend" every week. And all of them want to get pregnant, and give birth to beautiful children, like him. So that's 50 women per year. Even if mothers are all dark-haired carriers of BB genes, then in mix with bb blond father, all 50 children will be carriers of Bb.

Let's say 16 years later, those 50 children will intermarry and make 25 couples of parents with Bb genes. With combination like that, if they will have 4 children, then there's possibility that they will have one child with BB genes, two with Bb, and one with bb - blond.

16 more years later, those 25 blond children will also intermarry, make 12 couples, and each couple will give birth to 4 children. That's 48 blond children.

Their 50 siblings with Bb genes will also intermarry and create 25 couples, each will have 4 children, and out of them 25 will be BB, 50 will be Bb, and 25 will be bb.

So 34 years after that single blond man came to wildlings, out of his great grandchildren, there will be 73 blond carriers of bb genes, and 50 more carriers of Bb genes.

If in span of 34 years one blond man created 73 blond offsprings (half of them males), and 50 Bb carriers, then in another 34 years, his 36 blond great grandsons will create 2628 bb carriers and 1800 Bb carriers.

103 years after his arrival there will be 191,844 of his blond descendants.

Of course that one "evolutionary hero" could have married with only one woman, and she gave birth to only two of his children, and both were carriers of Bb genes. But it doesn't change the point - even one carrier of bb genes, is adding a variety in a pool gene of wildlings.

Which pretty, blond foreigner? This is a feudal setting, people don't move around much unless they are nomads like Dothraki. Only those who join the watch and traders(or smugglers) are an exception and they would be so few their effect would be negligible. Lynesse is even more so an exception, she isn't even worth mentioning. She is a noble, so has the means to travel and even among the nobles her case is very exceptional; Westerosi nobles generally marry within their region and it is highly possible they marry their neighbours whenever they can, at least in the North; Alys Karstark's betrothal to Daryn Hornwood, Halys Hornwood marrying to Donella Manderly, Wylis Manderly marrying to Leona Woolfield, Jorah Mormont marrying to a Glover bride. These are most of the recent marriages that we know of in the North, you can see the pattern. Only exception that I could find is the Glover-Locke marriage.

On lower case and capital case alllelles, you've been told time and again it doesn't work that way. I don't even want to talk about Andals bringing the blue eyes and blond hair, as there's plenty of evidence on first men having these traits yet you insist on them being brought by Andals while being unable to bring any evidence on it besides saying Arryns are blue eyed blondes so it must be an Andal trait. Your trying to model an Andal trait getting introduced and being common in a firstmen populace works the other way around too, and works much, much better that way. Instead of the Blonde hair getting introduced into firstmen by a few Andals, it could be introduced into a small Andal populace, like nobles with house Arryn in particular from those blonde first men.

 

Below is a list of blonde Westerosi characters/houses known to be of first men descent or not known to be of Andal descent

 

NORTHMAN

Horse

Leona Woolfield

Wylla Manderly

 

AMONG WILDLINGS

Val

One of Abel's companions

Some of Jon's "wards"

Weeper

Grigg the Goat

 

KNOWN FIRST MEN DESCENDANT

Lannisters

Yronwoods

Justin Massey

Edric Dayne

Lynesse Hightower

 

UNKNOWN ORIGINS

Wineseller assassin

Sweet Donnell Hill

Gerald Gower

Tyene

Catspaw

One of Davos' sons

 

Compare this to Arryns, only Andal family we know of that has blonde hair and have been mingling with first men houses for two thousand years and tell me which is more likely, Andals getting blonde hair from first men or the other way around?

 

Also on Valyrians; They are much more likely to be related to first men than to be Andals. Valyrian Peninsula is much more closer to the Arm of Dorne than Axe of Essos or the Silver Sea. We have houses of first men descent sharing traits with / looking like Valyrians; Danaerys and Lynesse, who is pale skinned and blonde,  look alike according to Jorah. Lyseni are pale skinned and some of them are blonde haired. So Lynesse both looks similar to some Lyseni and to Danaerys. Daynes, another first men house, have the purple eyes that mark the Valyrians.

 

The above paragraph makes me think that Valyrians and First men may be related more closely than it seems.

 

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

KNOWN FIRST MEN DESCENDANT

Lannisters

Lannisters are descendants of Andals.

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Which pretty, blond foreigner? This is a feudal setting, people don't move around much unless they are nomads like Dothraki. Only those who join the watch and traders(or smugglers) are an exception and they would be so few their effect would be negligible.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Serenei_of_Lys

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mysaria

If women can come from Lys to Westeros, just to become mistresses of a King, then men from Lys also can come to Westeros, for whatever reason. Adventure seakers, traders, etc.

They could come to trade with wildlings, to buy fur from them, or to exchange it for wine, weapons, fabrics, food, etc.

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Compare this to Arryns, only Andal family we know of that has blonde hair and have been mingling with first men houses for two thousand years and tell me which is more likely, Andals getting blonde hair from first men or the other way around?

This is ridiculous.

Majority of people in Westeros are descendants of First Men, because even though Westeros was invaded by Andals, they were outnumbered by First Men, and eventually their genes were erased/suppressed from gene pool of Westerosians (in majority of Houses).

Quote

After several hundred years of war, the Andals conquered or married into the southern kingdoms of the First Men and created their own. Only the Kings of Winter resisted the Andals successfully, stopping them at Moat Cailin.^[16][5]

 

Despite their victory, the Andals were outnumbered by the native First Men of Westeros.

And on example of Targaryens, we see what happenes with those genes that are outnumbered. Targaryen Kings married with Alicent Hightower, Mariah Martell, Betha Blackwood, Dyanna Dayne, Jena Dondarrion. But out of all Targaryens there was only several with not "blond" hair: Baelor, Daeron, maybe Duncan The Small and his youngest brother, Valarr. All other Targaryens were blond.

If blond hair was genetic trait of First Men, then by now nearly all inhabitants of 7K would have been blond. Especially people of The North, that wasn't defeated by Andals, and has the least amount of Andal genes in their genetic pool. And I don't remember any blond people from The North.

Lynesse was from The Reach. Blond wildlings are probably products of mixing wildling genes with kidnapped blond people or traders from Essos/Lys, Arryns, Lannisters. Couldn't be that in long history of Night's Watch, not even a single Lannister/Arryn wasn't sent to The Wall.

The purest descendants of First Men, are people in The North, specifically Starks, and they have brown hair. And the most purest descendants of Andals, are Arryns and Lannisters, and they are blond.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

If women can come from Lys to Westeros, just to become mistresses of a King, then men from Lys also can come to Westeros, for whatever reason. Adventure seakers, traders, etc.

They could come to trade with wildlings, to buy fur from them, or to exchange it for wine, weapons, fabrics, food, etc.

Again, you are taking the exception as the norm. This is a single (read as one) woman of noble blood (read as having the means to travel) becoming a mistress for the King(again, read as having the means to travel) As for trade, there are people who trade with Wildlings, yes but again, it is not common. See Davos chapters for that. You are trying to portray the people in a medieval setting as having the same means as people in our modern era. Even if it were so, you rarely see huge groups of people just packing and moving to another country with our modern day means.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

This is ridiculous.

Majority of people in Westeros are descendants of First Men, because even though Westeros was invaded by Andals, they were outnumbered by First Men, and eventually their genes were erased/suppressed from gene pool of Westerosians (in majority of Houses).

You are contradicting yourself here. If Andal genes were erased, how come an Andal house still have their Andal traits with no matches that allow them to keep their trait?

Common folk in the North and Beyond the Wall are pure blooded First Men(with negligible "Andal Taint") while those in the Vale are Andals, almost as pure as those First Men North of the Neck because of the atrocities committed after Arryns leading the Andals won and Royces leading the First Men lost. The rest are of mixed descent because after some fighting, kings allowed Andals to settle peacefully

First men have brown hair, yes, but they also have blonde hair and red hair and even black hair. If these weren't in their gene pool, then, as you said, these traits would have been long erased from the face of Westeros.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

And on example of Targaryens, we see what happenes with those genes that are outnumbered. Targaryen Kings married with Alicent Hightower, Mariah Martell, Betha Blackwood, Dyanna Dayne, Jena Dondarrion. But out of all Targaryens there was only several with not "blond" hair: Baelor, Daeron, maybe Duncan The Small and his youngest brother, Valarr. All other Targaryens were blond.

So you say, Targaryen genes were outnumbered, yet their genes prevailed over the genes outnumbering them? Makes no sense.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

If blond hair was genetic trait of First Men, then by now nearly all inhabitants of 7K would have been blond. Especially people of The North, that wasn't defeated by Andals, and has the least amount of Andal genes in their genetic pool. And I don't remember any blond people from The North.

No! Read above, first men have brown, red, blonde and even black hair. I have just provided you with a list of blonde people in westeros having first men descent or at least not known to be descended from Andals. Jon takes a hundred boys as his blood price and there are enough blondes in that group to have him mentioning them, along with red, brown and black haired people. There is Val, There is Grigg the Goat and Weeper. In the North there is Wylla Manderly and her mother Leona Woolfield, Hareth(Horse) from Mole's Town. These are blonde people North of the neck.

Lannisters aren't Andals. Lann the Clever, the blonde ancestor of Lannisters, lived in age of heroes, long before Andal invasion. Listing him as an Andal adventurer in a time Andals probably weren't even known in essos, let alone in westeros is nonsensical.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

The purest descendants of First Men, are people in The North, specifically Starks, and they have brown hair. And the most purest descendants of Andals, are Arryns and Lannisters, and they are blond

No. We don't know how first Arryns looked and while the common folk of Vale is the purest Andals in the Westeros, their nobles have been intermarrying with first men nobility in Vale for around two milennia so they aren't pure. If anything, nobles of Vale have only trace amounts of Andal genes left in them while their common folk are purer Andals.

Quote

In time some of these fallen houses would regain much of the pride and wealth and power lost on the battlefield that day, but that would require the passage of centuries. As for the victors, the Arryns would rule the Vale as kings until the coming of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, and thereafter served as the Lords of the Eyrie, Protectors of the Vale, and Wardens of the East. And from that day forth, the Vale itself has been known as the Vale of Arryn.

The fate of the defeated was far crueler. As word of the victory spread across the narrow sea, more and more longships set sail from Andalos, and more and more Andals poured into the Vale and the surrounding mountains. All of them required land—land the Andal lords were pleased to give them. Wherever the First Men sought to resist, they were ground underfoot, reduced to thralls, or driven out. Their own lords, beaten, were powerless to protect them.

Some of the First Men surely survived by joining their own blood with that of the Andals, but many more fled westward to the high valleys and stony passes of the Mountains of the Moon. There the descendants of this once-proud people dwell to this very day, leading short, savage, brutal lives amongst the peaks as bandits and outlaws, preying upon any man fool enough to enter their mountains without a strong escort. Little better than the free folk beyond the Wall, these mountain clans, too, are called wildlings by the civilized.

 

An addition: Roland I Arryn, grandson of Artys I, the first Arryn king, married to Teora Hunter, a lady from a first men house. Arryns have been intermarrying with first men nobility since their third generation as king, and this is at the latest. Rolands mother may also be from a house of first men descent.

[Megorova]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Again, you are taking the exception as the norm. This is a single (read as one) woman of noble blood (read as having the means to travel) becoming a mistress for the King(again, read as having the means to travel) As for trade, there are people who trade with Wildlings, yes but again, it is not common. See Davos chapters for that. You are trying to portray the people in a medieval setting as having the same means as people in our modern era. Even if it were so, you rarely see huge groups of people just packing and moving to another country with our modern day means.

You absolutely don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that that was a norm. I'm just saying that it is possible that foreign blondes/blonds added their genes to gene pool beyong The Wall. And I'm not saying that people that traded with Wildlings are common, all I'm saying that there is a possibility that some of those traders were blondes/blonds from Lys or other Valyrians, or Andals.

I'm not portraying, or trying to portray the people in a medieval setting as having the same means as people in our modern era. Stop twisting what I'm saying.

You got some wild ideas, that have nothing to do with the meaning, of what I actually said.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You are contradicting yourself here. If Andal genes were erased, how come an Andal house still have their Andal traits with no matches that allow them to keep their trait?

Read what is written - in majority of Houses. Majority doesn't mean ALL.

Those houses that are exeptions, and where Andal genes are still largelly present, are House of Lannisters and House of Arryns, and maybe a few others. While other people of Westeros mostly have genes of First Men, and their dark hair and dark eyes. For example Starks - brown hair; and grey eyes that they inherited from Royces - House from The Vale, that has mostly First Men blood, because Royces were Kings of that region, that later under rule of Andal House Arryn, became The Vale.

"The last of the Bronze Kings was Yorwyck's grandson, King Robar II, who inherited Runestone a fortnight before his sixteenth nameday. He proved to be such a warrior of ferocity and cunning and charm that he almost stemmed the Andal tide. He succeeded in uniting the remaining First Men lords under a single banner to oppose the Andals, who by that time, controlled three-quarters of the Vale. These lords had been petty kings, but set aside their crowns and bent the knee before Robar Royce, proclaiming him High King of the Vale, the Fingers, and the Mountains of the Moon. During the Battle of the Seven Stars, the First Men host led by King Robar was eventually defeated and Robar himself killed by, some say, Ser Artys Arryn, others say Lord Ruthermont, or Luceon Templeton and even Ser Jaime Corbray. The end result was that House Royce survived by yielding up gold, land and hostages. The Royces bent their knee and swore fealty to Artys of House Arryn, the First of His Name, King of Mountain and Vale.^[1] "

"Those First Men who did not submit to the Arryns fled into the Mountains of the Moon and became the Vale mountain clans.^[6] "

Now look with whom Starks intermarried (family tree in the bottom of the page):

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark

Marna Locke, Lysa Locke, Lyanne Glover, Gilliane Glover, Lorra Royce, Mariame Manderly, Jeyne Manderly, Lysara Karstark, Alys Karstark, Margaret Karstark, Arya Flint, Melantha Blackwood, Alysanne Blackwood.

2 Locke, 2 Glover, 2 Manderly, 3 Karstark, 2 Blackwood - northeners.

1 Royce - The Vale, original First Men of that region.

1 Flint - from mountain clans from The Vale (First Men that fled from Andals), or from mountain clans of the North (that were never conquered by Andals).

Starks married only with other descendants of First Men.

Those 8 families (including Starks) are all dark-haired. So it's a logical assumption, that First Men were dark haired like northeners.

1. So we know that Lannisters and Arryns claim that they are descendants of Andals.

"The Arryns are considered to come from the oldest and purest line of Andal nobility, which they say reaches back to Andalos and possibly Hugor of the Hill.^[7] "

2. Lannisters and Arryns are blondes/blonds.

3. The North wasn't conquered by Andals.

4. Majority of northeners have brown/dark hair.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = Andals were blond, First Men were dark haired.

 

Andals came to Westeros by thousands. There was many noble houses, their bannermen and knights. They had with whom to marry. Same as, for example, when Targaryens came to Dragonstone from Valyria, they intermarried many times with other Valyrian House that lived near Dragonstone - House Velaryon.

So aside from Arryns, that became ruling House of The Vale, and aside from Lannisters-Lyddens, that became ruling House of Westerlands, they also brought with them other noble Andal families, with whom they intermarried, same as Targaryens intermarried with Velaryons.

Not to mention that Targaryens also intermarried with Rogares, noble Valyrian family back from Lys/Essos. And King Aerys II Targaryen even sent his cousin Steffon Baratheon to Volantis, to look for a pureblood Valyrian fiancee for Prince Rhaegar.

So in the same manner, noble Andals that lived in Westeros, could have sent envoys back to Essos, to bring for them pure-Andal brides from their original homelands.

Aside from this, Lannisters were often intermarrying with other Lannisters, same as Arryns intermarried with other Arryns.

So they were mixing Andal genes with more Andal genes, from the same gene pool (Lannister + Lannister, Arryn + Arryn), or they were getting additional injections of genes from other Andal families (living in Westeros, or living back in Essos).

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Common folk in the North and Beyond the Wall are pure blooded First Men(with negligible "Andal Taint") 

Yes, mostly they are First Men. Though they do get some occasional injections of other genes. From outsiders.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The rest are of mixed descent because after some fighting, kings allowed Andals to settle peacefully

Yes, the rest are of mixed descent. But majority of inhabitants of Westeros were First Men, so eventually genetic traits of Andals, such as blond hair, became mostly extinct. MOSTLY, aside of such houses as Lannisters, Arryns, maybe Daynes, etc.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

First men have brown hair, yes, but they also have blonde hair and red hair and even black hair. If these weren't in their gene pool, then, as you said, these traits would have been long erased from the face of Westeros.

First Men had brown hair, those that NOW have brown hair, blond hair, red hair, etc. - they are descendants of mixes between First Men, Andals, Roynars, Valyrians, and who knows how many other races. Because in Planetos there are 27+ different races.

And about red hair - most likely, same as in real world, it is a mutation and not genes inherited from some separate race.

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So you say, Targaryen genes were outnumbered, yet their genes prevailed over the genes outnumbering them? Makes no sense.

It doesn't make sense to YOU, because you absolutely didn't get the meaning of what I wrote.

OMG

In pool of Targaryen genes were outnumbered OTHER genes. Such as added from one Martell, one Hightower, one Dayne, one Dondarrion, one Blackwood.

Only FIVE non-Targaryens added their genes in a mix with DOZENS of Targaryens.

So who was outnumbered there?

How did you get an idea that the ones who were outnumbered were Targaryens?

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No! Read above, first men have brown, red, blonde and even black hair.

Their MIXED descendants, that also have genes from other races.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lannisters aren't Andals. Lann the Clever, the blonde ancestor of Lannisters, lived in age of heroes, long before Andal invasion. Listing him as an Andal adventurer in a time Andals probably weren't even known in essos, let alone in westeros is nonsensical.

Lannisters are Andals.

"Ser Joffrey, a knight of House Lydden, was married to the only daughter of King Gerold III Lannister, who was of First Men ancestry. When the king died without male issue, Joffrey was crowned by a council and took the name of House Lannister.^[1] "

"The Lyddens were Andal adventurers who settled in the westerlands. Ser Joffrey Lydden married into House Lannister and became the first Andal King of the Rock, ruling as King Joffrey Lannister.^[3] "

"The Andals began to invade the westerlands after they conquered the Vale and the riverlands. Tybolt Lannister, the King of the Rock, defeated the first Andal warlord, and the next few attacks were also successfully defended by House Lannister.^[15]

As the Andals continued to march west, however, Kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages between their bannermen and the most powerful of the warlords. The children of the Andals were brought to Casterly Rock to serve as wards but also hostages. After the death of King Gerold III, his daughter's husband, the Andal Ser Joffrey Lydden, took the Lannister name. Other houses formed by the intermarriages included Houses Brax, Drox, Jast, Kyndall, Lefford, Marbrand, Parren, Sarsfield, and Serrett. In contrast to most First Men kings, the support of the Andals allowed the Kings of the Rock to expand their power.^[15]"

First Men of Westerlands, out of all Westerosians, mixed the most with Andals. And their ruling House - Lannisters are the purest descendants of Andals.

King of the Rock is Lord of House Lannister (but they are actually Lyddens - Andals. Joffrey Lydden married with daughter of Gerold III Lannister, and took her family name, so all Lannisters that were after that, are actually Andal Lannisters-Lyddens and not First Men Lannisters).

[sweetsunray]

On 10/12/2017 at 11:26 AM, Pukisbaisals said:

So if Ashara Dayne went to North her nose and ears would turn black? So cute, I like this idea .

Her hair certainly would, and that without going north even.

[sweetsunray]

On 12/12/2017 at 2:00 AM, Megorova said:

Black-haired mothers with blond children - Mariah Martell and Maekar Targaryen, Elia Martell and Aegon Targaryen, Dyanna Dayne and Aerion and Aegon the Egg Targaryens, Jocelyn Baratheon and Rhaenys Targaryen.

A bit of correction - not exactly black hair, and also not exactly blond, rather dark brown/brown and gold/silver/silver-gold.

Exactly: not actually black haired women... but dark brown. It's not the Baratheon Black.

One of my points was that Ned (and by extension George as well) commented on the combo of Baratheon with Lannister ONLY. Your examples of non-Lannisters and non-Baratheons and matches to Baratheons not involving Lannisters does nothing to disprove that the gold yields to the coal.

Quote

Those four women were carriers of Bb genes from their ancestors. Mariah Martell - Drazenko Rogare; Elia - Drazenko and Daenerys Targaryen; Dyanna Dayne from one of her parents, or both of her parents; Jocelyn from her Velaryon mother.

Mariah Martell-Drazenko Rogare:

Please provide the that evidene that she is a Baratheon for an ancestor, and that her hair color is Baratheon black?

Drazenko Rogare is a Rogare of Lys, not a Lannister. Are the Rogares of Lys "golden haired" or "silver haired"? (note also the visual interplay of precious metals "gold" versus "silver", just on the side)

Same question for the others such as Elia Martell, Daenerys Targaryen and Dyanne Dayne - where's the evidence that they have a Baratheon Black ancestor?

As for Jocelyn: is her Velaryon mother a Lannister?

 

 

[sweetsunray]

On 14/12/2017 at 2:51 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

The purpose is she has honey hair, and what role honey means to the story, and the fact that she is a she-bear, and the song Bear and the Maiden Fair is for her and Jon and the mutiny at Castle Black. (I have a breakdown of the song if you want me to share it with you? I have to find it )

There's ALWAYS a bear and bears are nuts for honey and they luv to lick the honey of her hair

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

You absolutely don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that that was a norm. I'm just saying that it is possible that foreign blondes/blonds added their genes to gene pool beyong The Wall. And I'm not saying that people that traded with Wildlings are common, all I'm saying that there is a possibility that some of those traders were blondes/blonds from Lys or other Valyrians, or Andals.

I'm not portraying, or trying to portray the people in a medieval setting as having the same means as people in our modern era. Stop twisting what I'm saying.

No, I am not twisting what you are saying; for what you have said to have any relevance on people beyond the Wall or even the North, there should be a great amount of people, which can't be with the ways you propose. So a single blondie slaver from this or that daughter of valyria kidnapped by horny spearwives has no impact on wildling genes.

 

On Arryns and Lannisters; how come you determined Andals are blond and Lannisters are Andal while Arryns too are Andal is beyond me;

This is Lann the Clever

Quote

He opened to the section on House Lannister once more, and turned the pages slowly, hoping against hope that something would leap out at him. The Lannisters were an old family, tracing their descent back to Lann the Clever, a trickster from the Age of Heroes who was no doubt as legendary as Bran the Builder, though far more beloved of singers and taletellers. In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair. Ned wished he were here now, to winkle the truth out of this damnable book.

Age of heroes, before Andals were even known. Now, for your claim on Lannisters, a family of firstmen descent is Andal because they married an Andal that one time, then surely Arryns must be First Men, right? Because the Grandson of the first Arryn king married a daughter of the Hunters, a family of First Men descent which fought against Arryns in Battle of Seven Stars.

We have a description of Lann, who lived in Age of Heroes, he's the fellow with curly blonde hair. Lannisters still have this trait despite marrying to an Andal during the Andal Invasion. Do we have any such description of any Arryns during the Andal Invasions thousands of years? We only know that two of the current Arryns are blue eyed Blondes, we don't know if these were the original traits of Arryns, let alone if they are common among Andals. Compare this to the wildling population which has many blondes, which is near impossible to happen with just a few blondes over thousands of years.

 

Here also Hoares

Quote

Archmaester Hake tells us that the kings of House Hoare were, "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart." Their foes claimed their blood was black as well, darkened by the "Andal taint," for many of the early Hoare kings took maidens of that ilk to wife. True ironborn had salt water in their veins, the priests of the Drowned God proclaimed; the black-blooded Hoares were false kings, ungodly usurpers who must be cast down.

See how Hoares are disliked because they have too much Andal Blood. Notice also their hair and eye color, Black and Black. Unlike your Lannister-Lydden Marriage, this is not a one time event either; Hoares took Andals to wife many times and they have the black Andal Blood because of that, along with Black Eyes and Black Hair.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

To add on the above post, this is Orys Baratheon, supposed bastard brother of Aegon I;

Quote

When they came ashore at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush to begin their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms, with them came a black-eyed, black-haired bastard named Orys Baratheon.

Guess where Orys comes from? DS Guess the dominant religion, and therefore as an extention of it, people inhabiting DS?

A clue, it is not the Old Gods of the First Men and it's not the Orphans' Rhoynish faith. So Orys, a bastard born to a mother living in a region that isn't worshipping the Old Gods of the First Men (you can read this as Andal if you like) and doesn't show any Valyrian traits, at least in his coloring, has black hair and black eyes.  Where must he have gotten these traits oh goshs (da old ones and da newbies). Surely it's the work of some wizard giving these supposedly First Men traits to a child born to a Valyrian father and an Andal mother, right? Mayhaps it was some hateful Greenseer First Men raped Aerion's concubine/mistress in her sleep, Lann the Clever style, and passed the baby off as Orys, son of Aerion, because he saw in his visions that the dragons will take over all of Westeros so he planted the seed that will oust the dragons from Westeros some three hundred years right?

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

To add on the above post, this is Orys Baratheon, supposed bastard brother of Aegon I;

Guess where Orys comes from? DS Guess the dominant religion, and therefore as an extention of it, people inhabiting DS?

A clue, it is not the Old Gods of the First Men and it's not the Orphans' Rhoynish faith. So Orys, a bastard born to a mother living in a region that isn't worshipping the Old Gods of the First Men (you can read this as Andal if you like) and doesn't show any Valyrian traits, at least in his coloring, has black hair and black eyes.  Where must he have gotten these traits oh goshs (da old ones and da newbies). Surely it's the work of some wizard giving these supposedly First Men traits to a child born to a Valyrian father and an Andal mother, right? Mayhaps it was some hateful Greenseer First Men raped Aerion's concubine/mistress in her sleep, Lann the Clever style, and passed the baby off as Orys, son of Aerion, because he saw in his visions that the dragons will take over all of Westeros so he planted the seed that will oust the dragons from Westeros some three hundred years right?

We don't know from where Orys came from.

For example name of one of main characters of ASOIAF is Jon Snow. Supposedly he's from Winterfell, or at least from The North - which is based on his last name being Snow. But is he really a Snow? Maybe he's Sand? Maybe he was born in Dorne, at Tower of Joy, and thus he is supposed to be Sand, and not Snow. Or maybe he is Targaryen, and not Snow nor Sand?

We don't even know what was Orys' last name, prior he took last name Baratheon. Whether he was Orys Waters (last name of bastards from Crownlands), or maybe he was Orys of Essos, or Orys of Dothraki.

When Targaryens came from Valyria to Dragonstone, they brought there their entire court, servants and slaves. And majority of them were blond and blue-eyed Valyrians. Though maybe not all of them. Could be that Aerion's lover was a non-Valyrian slave. And her family came to Dragonstone together with Targaryens. And they had black hair and black eyes, or maybe they even had black skin.

It isn't known who was Orys' mother, or from where did she came. Who said that she was native inhabitant of Dragonstone? She could have been anyone.

Wife of Viserys II, Larra Rogare, came from Lys. Same as mistress of Aegon IV, Serenei of Lys. Wife of Doran Martell, Mellario came from Norvos. Wife of Daemon I Blackfyre was Rohanne of Tyrosh.

So it could even be, that Orys' mother was a black woman from Summer Isles. Why not? Aegon IV had a black-skinned lover from Summer Isles, with whom they were together for over 10 years. Bellegere Otherys. She's supposedly gave birth to three of his children: Bellenora, Narha, Balerion.

Who said that Aerion's mistress lived at Dragonstone? You're forgetting that at those times, they had dragons and used them for traveling.

"The other Free Cities rose up against Volantis, and when Pentos and Tyrosh asked for his aid in their struggle against Volantis, Aegon flew to Pentos atop of Balerion to meet with the Prince of Pentos and the city's magisters. Aegon next flew to Lys, where he burned a Volantene fleet before it could attempt to invade the city. Shortly after, Aegon returned to Dragonstone.^[5] "

Queen Alysanne Targaryen flew with her dragon to see The Wall. "When Jaehaerys travelled to Winterfell, early on in his reign, Alysanne accompanied him, as did six dragons and half the royal court. Alysanne grew bored, however, and flew north mounted upon her dragon Silverwing. She stayed in several local villages while flying north."

"Despite the fact that there were several dragon hatchlings on Dragonstone, Maegor had not yet claimed a dragon of his own, claiming that none were worthy. After Aegon I's death, Maegor claimed his father's mount, Balerion, for his own." "Aenys furiously gave Maegor a choice: set Alys aside or go into exile for five years. Maegor chose the latter option and in 40 AC left for Pentos with Alys and Balerion." "Following Aenys's cremation,^[8] Dowager Queen Visenya Targaryen flew to Pentos to retrieve her son Maegor from his exile."

So Aerion could have went anywhere on Planetos, found there a suitable lover, impregnated her, and some time after she gave birth to Orys, his father took him to live at Dragonstone.

We can't make assumptions about looks and genetic traits of Dragonstone's inhabitants solely on black color of eyes and hair of Orys Baratheon.

 

Who said that Orys' mother was Andal? We know NOTHING about his mother, or where did she came from.

Baelor the Blessed was a devoted follower of Seven, was he also Andal? Also from where did you got an idea that Ory's mother was follower of Seven? We know NOTHING about her, including her preferred religion.

So all your assumptions are totally baseless.

 

You think that First Men were blond, while dark hair and dark eyes are genetic traits of Andals. But you are wrong, most likely, and this is why:

The North wasn't conquered by Andals, and Rhoynars. Northeners are purest descendants of First Men. They also prefer to marry with other northeners.

For 12 generations from Torrhen Stark to Eddard Stark, their family (main male branch) married only with other northeners, with one exeption - Lorra Royce in 8th generation (that was also a descendant of First Men. Royces were Kings of First Men in The Vale, prior Andals invasion.)

And majotiry of northeners are dark haired. While inhabitants of Westerlands, that during and after Andal's Invasion, frequently intermarried with Andals, are blond.

I'm basing my assumption, that First Men were dark-haired, on entire population of The North, on dark-haired and grey-eyed family of Royces, and on dark-haired mountain clans of The Vale (First Men that escaped from Arryns, when Andal Arryn became King of The Vale), on dark-haired Dornishmen (that same as northeners, weren't conquered by Andals); and that Andals were blond and blue/green-eyed - on blond and green-eyed Lannisters, whose ancestors were Andal Lann the Clever, Andal Joffrey Lydden, Andal King to whom the Rat Cook fed pie made from King's son; and westerlanders nobility more frequently intermarried with Andals, during and after their Invasion, than noble families of any other region of Westeros; and blond blue-eyed Arryns, that are the purest descendants of Andals; and blond green-eyed Vaiths and blue-eyed Allyrions from Andal Houses of Dorne. 

While you assumption is based on ONE black-haired and black-eyed Orys Baratheon, about whose mother we know absolutely NOTHING; and ONE Hoare, that was described as having black hair, black eyes, black heart, and that also was a NATIVE inhabitant of Iron Islands, and didn't had even a drop of Andal blood in his veins. His WIFE was Andal, NOT HIS MOTHER OR FATHER, and he didn't got his dark coloring from HIS WIFE; yes, he and his descendants intermarried with Andal queens, which doesn't mean that dark coloring of House Hoare was inherited from Andal side of the family, and not from Ironborn side of the family.

 

Addition to Dornish genetic traits:

"The influence of the Andals was less in Dorne than in the other southern kingdoms of Westeros. Most Andals focused on the nearer lands on the narrow sea, rather than the Dornish sands. Some, such as the Ullers, Qorgyles, and Vaiths, adventured into more inhospitable regions of Dorne. The Allyrions, Jordaynes, and Santagars also established their own realms. The Martells defeated two First Men houses, the Wades and Shells, claiming territory near the mouth of the Greenblood.^[14] "

1. Influence of Andals was the least in Dorne, compared with other regions of Westeros.

Majority of population in Dorne have olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes.

In case if Andals were blond and white skinned, then it makes sense, that majority of Dornishmen are descendants of First Men and Rhoynar, and have their dark coloring.

2. Some Andals went into more inhospitable regions of Dorne, for example such as Red Mountains of Dorne. So they are current Stony Dornishmen, that have light skin, blue eyes, and blond hair.

Such as Yronwoods (everyone in that family, aside from Gwyneth, have blond hair and blue eyes), Allyrions (Daemon Sand, son of Lord Ryon Allyrion has sky blue eyes, and light sandy brown hair), modern Fowlers (yellow-haired twins), and maybe Daynes (there are both dark-haired people in that family (like Ashara Dayne), and light-haired (like Edric Dayne), and mixes (like Gerold Dayne, that has silver hair with midnight black streak). Could be that blond hair of Daynes is due to mixes of Andal blood in their genetic pool).

(Yronwoods and Fowlers are First Men Houses, but not that far from their castles, are located castle Tor of Andal House Jordayne, and castle Hellholt of Andal House Uller.

Daynes are also First Men House, but not far from their castle Starfall, is located castle Sandstone of Andal House Quorgyle. 

So it's possible that members of First Men Houses Yronwoods, Fowlers and Daynes intermarried with members of nearby Andal Houses Jordaynes, Ullers and Quorgyles.)

Also we know a person from House Vaiths (one of those Andal Houses from quote above, that adventured into more inhospitable regions of Dorne) - Casella Vaith, she was mistress of Aegon IV.

"Cassella was a willowy maid with green eyes and pale whiteblond hair.^[1] "

 

Which additionally proves my earlier assumption that Andals were blond haired, and their eye color was blue (like Arryns, and Allyrions) or green (like Lannisters, and Vaithes).

Yronwoods (blond hair and blue eyes), Fowlers (yellow hair) and Daynes (purple and blue eyes, silver and blond hair) got their looks from mixed marriages with nearby Andal Houses, such as Jordaynes, Ullers and Quorgyles.

3. Gene pool of Dornishmen received only insignificant infusion of Andal blood. Such Andal houses like Martells, nearly entirely lost their Andal traits. While some Dornish Houses, that had Andal origin, managed to keep their genetic pool mostly clear from injections of genes from First Men, and later from Rhoynar. Because they lived in more inhospitable regions of Dorne, such as deserts and mountains, and thus rarely got visited by outsiders. And thus their genetic pool remained mostly Andalosian.

Current dark coloring of Martells are caused by infusion of Rhoynar blood, from Rhoynar Queen Nymeriah, that married with Mors Martell.

"The Rhoynar were a slender people with smooth olive skin, black hair, and dark eyes.^[4] "

"Under the rule of House Nymeros Martell of Sunspear, the Rhoynar have lived and intermingled with the native Dornish since that time.^[12] "

So modern Dornishmen are mostly mixes of First Men and Rhoynar blood. And only some of them still have genetic traits of Andals, such as blond hair and blue/green eyes.

[Corvo the Crow]

15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

While you assumption is based on ONE black-haired and black-eyed Orys Baratheon, about whose mother we know absolutely NOTHING; and ONE Hoare, that was described as having black hair, black eyes, black heart, and that also was a NATIVE inhabitant of Iron Islands, and didn't had even a drop of Andal blood in his veins. His WIFE was Andal, NOT HIS MOTHER OR FATHER, and he didn't got his dark coloring from HIS WIFE; yes, he and his descendants intermarried with Andal queens, which doesn't mean that dark coloring of House Hoare was inherited from Andal side of the family, and not from Ironborn side of the family.

I am sorry, what are you basing your evidence on? Lannisters who married to one Lydden that one time becoming "pure" Andals and having blond hair because of that even though we know that they had their curly blonde hair sine Lann the Clever dating back to Age of Heroes before there were Andals? Or are you basing it on Harrold HARDYNG having blonde hair? We don't even know if Jon Arryn had blonde hair and blue eyes or not, we never get any confirmation as @TsarGrey pointed out in the other thread. We are just told Harrold had Jon's look.

On Hoares I am posting this again, read again and just maybe you'll see.

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the kings of House Hoare were, "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart." Their foes claimed their blood was black as well, darkened by the "Andal taint," for many of the early Hoare kings took maidens of that ilk to wife. True ironborn had salt water in their veins, the priests of the Drowned God proclaimed; the black-blooded Hoares were false kings, ungodly usurpers who must be cast down.

"MANY OF THE EARLY HOARE KİNGS TOOK MAIDENS OF THAT ILK TO WIFE", it says. It is not just a single random Hoare. It is many  EARLY HOARE KINGS.

Please also explain how Arryns are pure blooded Andals when they have married with First Men as early as third generation of their kingly line. Perhaps even earlier, as we don't know who Artys Arryn married to, nor do we know who his son, father of the king who married the hunter bride, married to.

You are not basing on the entire population of the North, you are basing on one Nortern family, Starks, we know their hair color while disregarding the blonde wildlings seperated even further from the Andalised parts. You are trying to base it on "dark haired unconquered Dornish" while Yronwoods, a stony dornish family of blue eyed blondes, with also a brown haired member are of FIRST MEN descent. Another stony dornish family, Daynes have two members we know their color of, the dark haired Ashara and blonde haired Edric. You are trying to base it on "Andal Lannisters", this is Lann; "That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. " See the bolded part? Millenia before Andals. We know nothing of Lydden coloring, then or now. Finally, on "Blonde Arryns" We have no idea if Jon Arryn was blonde, let alone if Artys Arryn was. Arryns may have been the "purest Andal family" UNTIL the third generation of their kingly line married with lady Hunter from House Hunter, which fought against the Andal invaders in Battle of the Sevenstars because they were a First Men family.

 

So we have, a single Northern Family with Brown hair and plenty of First Men blondes north of the Wall and even some in the North, Two Dornish families of First Men descent having Blonde haired members, a not so Andal  character from the age of heroes with blonde hair and blonde descendants, a single blonde guy who looked like another guy that comes from a not so pure line of Andals and may or may not have blonde hair because we were never told. Oh we also have a house of Black haired, black eyed family, who married to Andals frequently.

Oh, We also have this Black eyed, Black haired Dornish Family with Andal origins, Martells, but I'll disregard them since they have also mingled with black haired black eyed and olive skinned Rhoynar.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Addition to Dornish genetic traits:

"The influence of the Andals was less in Dorne than in the other southern kingdoms of Westeros. Most Andals focused on the nearer lands on the narrow sea, rather than the Dornish sands. Some, such as the Ullers, Qorgyles, and Vaiths, adventured into more inhospitable regions of Dorne. The Allyrions, Jordaynes, and Santagars also established their own realms. The Martells defeated two First Men houses, the Wades and Shells, claiming territory near the mouth of the Greenblood.^[14] "

1. Influence of Andals was the least in Dorne, compared with other regions of Westeros.

Majority of population in Dorne have olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes.

In case if Andals were blond and white skinned, then it makes sense, that majority of Dornishmen are descendants of First Men, and have their dark coloring.

2. Some Andals went into more inhospitable regions of Dorne, for example such as Red Mountains of Dorne. So they are current Stony Dornishmen, that have light skin, blue eyes, and blond hair.

Such as Yronwoods (everyone in that family, aside from Gwyneth, have blond hair and blue eyes), Allyrions (Daemon Sand, son of Lord Ryon Allyrion has sky blue eyes, and light sandy brown hair), modern Fowlers (yellow-haired twins), and maybe Daynes (there are both dark-haired people in that family (like Ashara Dayne), and light-haired (like Edric Dayne), and mixes (like Gerold Dayne, that has silver hair with midnight black streak). Could be that blond hair of Daynes is due to mixes of Andal blood in their genetic pool).

Also we know a person from House Vaiths (one of those Andal Houses from quote above, that adventured into more inhospitable regions of Dorne) - Casella Vaith, she was mistress of Aegon IV.

"Cassella was a willowy maid with green eyes and pale whiteblond hair.^[1] "

 

Which additionally proves my earlier assumption that Andals were blond haired, and their eye color was blue (like Arryns, and now also Yronwoods and Allyrions) or green (like Lannisters, and now also Vaithes).

3. Martells settled near Greenblood, mixed with locals, frequently intermarried with native inhabitants of Dorne, and eventually lost their white skin, blond hair and blue/green eyes, and became olive-skinned, brown-eyed and brown/dark-haired.

Are you for real? You are nitpicking information that suits your need, picking a single character that has the desired traits, while disregarding anything else and trying to bend stuff in to the way you like them to be, like CURRENT Arryns being pure blooded Andals while they have married into first men since at least their third generation king.

 

Dornish has three groups; Salty, Stony, Sandy. It is the Salty Dornish, like Martells, the Andal Family which married with Rhoynar, that has black hair and black eyes and they are olive skinned.  Sandy Dornish are even darker. Stony Dornish have brown and blonde hairs, like Yronwoods.

Yronwoods are NOT Andals.

 

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Erich VII Durrandon was king in the stormlands when the Andal longships first began to cross the narrow sea. History remembers him as Erich the Unready, for he took little note of these invaders, famously declaring that he had no interest in "the quarrels of strangers in a land far away." The Storm King was embroiled in his own wars at the time, attempting to reconquer Massey's Hook from its infamous pirate king, Justin Milk-Eye, whilst fending off the incursions of the Dornish king Olyvar Yronwood. Nor did Erich live to see the result of his inaction, for the Andals remained occupied with their conquest of the Vale for the rest of his lifetime.

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

North and east, beyond a great gap in the mountains that provided the shortest and easiest passage from Dorne to the Reach, House Fowler carved its own seat into the stony slopes overlooking the pass. Skyreach, that seat became known, for its lofty perch and soaring stone towers. At the time, the pass it brooded over was commonly known as the Wide Way (today we name it the Prince's Pass), so the Fowlers took for themselves the grandiose titles of Lords of Skyreach, Lords of the Wide Way, and Kings of Stone and Sky.

In a similar vein, far to the east where the mountains ran down to the Sea of Dorne, House Yronwood established itself in the high valleys and green foothills below the peaks and seized control of the Stone Way, the second of the two great passes into Dorne (one far steeper, narrower, and more treacherous than the Wide Way of the west). Well protected and comparably fertile, their lands were also well timbered and possessed of valuable deposits of iron, tin, and silver as well, making the Yronwoods the richest and most powerful of the Dornish kings. Styling themselves the Bloodroyals, Lords of the Stone Way, Masters of the Green Hills, and High Kings of Dorne, the lords of House Yronwood in time ruled northern Dorne, from the mountain domains of House Wyl to the headwaters of the Greenblood...though their efforts to bend the other Dornish kings to their will were seldom successful.

A second, rival High King of Dorne also existed during the times of the First Men, ruling from a great wooden motte-and-bailey castle on the south bank of Greenwood near Lemonwood, where the river flows into the Summer Sea. This was a curious kingship, for whenever a king died, his successor was chosen by election from amongst a dozen noble families that had settled along the river or the eastern shores. The Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills, and Briars all threw up kings who ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees, but in the end this curious system broke down when a disputed election set the royal houses to warring against one another. After a generation of conflict, three of the old houses were wiped from the earth, and the once-powerful river realm had shattered into a dozen quarrelsome petty kingdoms.

 

 

 

 

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Gene pool of Dornishmen received only insignificant infusion of Andal blood. Such Andal houses like Martells, nearly entirely lost their Andal traits. While some Dornish Houses, that had Andal origin, managed to keep their genetic pool mostly clear from injections of genes from First Men. Because they lived in more inhospitable regions of Dorne, such as deserts and mountains, and thus rarely got visited by outsiders. And thus their genetic pool remained mostly Andalosian.

Or current dark coloring of Martells are caused by infusion of Rhoynar blood, from Rhoynar Queen Nymeriah, that married with Mors Martell, and her people.

"The Rhoynar were a slender people with smooth olive skin, black hair, and dark eyes.^[4] "

"Under the rule of House Nymeros Martell of Sunspear, the Rhoynar have lived and intermingled with the native Dornish since that time.^[12] "

So modern Dornishmen are mostly mixes of First Men and Rhoynar blood. And only some of them still have genetic traits of Andals, such as blond hair and blue/green eyes.

So, you are suggesting that Dorne, filled with many Andal Houses, only received insignificant infusion of Andal blood so Andal Dornish lost their traits but Wildlings living North of the Wall, which is north of The North which is north of MC and Causeway, somehow received significant amounts of Andal blood and have plenty of blondes?

 

Does what you post really makes sense to yourself, internally? Or are you just trying to troll people here? Please inform me if it is the second one so I'll stop wasting my time on a petty troll.

[Megorova]

@Corvo the Crow I wrote some things incorrectly, and edited them later, so re-read that post again.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Megorova

Please stop editing the same post over and over and over again as it's hard to determine what is new, what is old, what is changed and instead just post a new one. And again, my point stands, your posts don't make sense; in one post you say "Martells are genetically first menized, cause Dorne has small amount of Andal Genes" While in another you say "Yronwoods are Andalized despite dorne having no significant amount of Andal genes". Your posts just make no sense, please post something beyond pure speculation, post me a single Andal Family with Blonde hair is a continued trait. Arryns don't count as we don't know if Jon had blonde hair. Lannisters are an even worse example, Lann just wasn't an Andal as I posted.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I am sorry, what are you basing your evidence on? Lannisters who married to one Lydden that one time becoming "pure" Andals and having blond hair because of that even though we know that they had their curly blonde hair sine Lann the Clever dating back to Age of Heroes before there were Andals?

"While House Lannister is of mostly Andal descent, Lann is believed to have been descended from the First Men. Some versions of his, however, tale state he was an Andal adventurer from across the Narrow Sea."

According to some sources Lann the Clever was Andal.

Or do you think that prior Andals invaded Westeros, they didn't existed?

Prior that invasion, Andals lived for thousands of years in Essos. And they occasionally visited Westeros. Same as Valyrians.

1. Lann the Clever - Andal.

2. Joffrey Lydden - Andal.

3. King for whom Rat Cook made a pie - Andal.

4. Out of all regions of Westeros, Andal nobility intermarried the most, with population of Westerlands.

So "Lannisters are mostly pure Andals" is based on 1, 2, 3, 4 from above.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

"MANY OF THE EARLY HOARE KİNGS TOOK MAIDENS OF THAT ILK TO WIFE", it says. It is not just a single random Hoare. It is many  EARLY HOARE KINGS.

It doesn't say that black coloring they got from Andals.

Read this:

Spoiler

1. "Fair-haired, tall, and handsome, the Lannisters are the blood of Andal adventurers who carved out a mighty kingdom in the western hills and valleys. Through the female line they boast of descent from Lann the Clever, the legendary trickster of the Age of Heroes who tricked the members of House Casterly into giving him Casterly Rock^[4] during the era of the First Men.^[5] "

2. "The Andals turned their attention to the Iron Islands a thousand years after their landing on the Fingers.^[6]As the Andals invaded and settled in the riverlands, westerlands, and the Reach, they began constructing new settlements and stout castles. These stronger defenses, combined with the Andals' sailing ability, weakened the grip of the ironborn on the Sunset Sea. The Andals then began to invade the Iron Islands in waves, often with the support of rival ironborn lords.^[19]"

3. "Unlike the First Men, the Andals built strong ships capable of fighting ironborn longships. During the Andal invasion, wooden stockades of the First Men with replaced with stone castles throughout the the Reach, the riverlands, and the westerlands, new defenses against the lightning raids of the ironborn. All of their possessions lost, the Greyirons barely held on to power, and the isles increasingly divided into civil wars. After a thousand years of hereditary rule, the Greyirons fell to a coalition of ironborn lords and Andal adventurers, who often intermarried with the natives of the Iron Islands.^[16]"

4. "During the Andal invasion, the Hoares allied with Andals and the Orkwoods, Drumms, and Greyjoys to slay King Rognar II Greyiron and end the hereditary dynasty of House Greyiron. According to legend, the ironborn played the finger dance to choose their next king, resulting in Harras Hoare ruling as King Harras Stump-hand. Archmaester Haereg instead attributes Harras becoming king to his marrying into the Andals and thereby gaining their support.^[8]

The drowned men and rival lords denigrated Harras's line as having an "Andal taint" by having Andal queens and accused them of being false kings, which Archmaester Hake agreed with, referring to them as being "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart". Hoare kings from this time include Wulfgar the Widowmaker, his great-grandson Horgan Priestkiller, Fergon the Fierce, Othgar the Souless, Othgar Demonlover and Craghorn of the Red Smile. Archmaester Haereg praised the Hoare kings, however, for bringing the Faith of the Seven to the Iron Islands, discouraging reaving, and promoting trade.^[3]"

5. Horgan Priestkiller - "Horgan was the great-grandson of King Wulfgar the Widowmaker, who had allowed the construction on Great Wyk of the first sept in the Iron Islands. When Horgan allowed the building of a sept on Old Wyk, which was once the site of the holy kingsmoots, the drowned men of the Drowned God rose in rebellion. According to Archmaester Haereg, Horgan responded by slaughtering these priests.^[1] "

"Othgar Hoare, known as Othgar the Soulless, was a King of the Iron Islands from House Hoare. The Hoare kings of his era were opposed by the drowned men because of their support for the Faith of the Seven, discouraging of reaving, and promotion of trade.^[1]"

6. "Nevertheless, the ironborn reached a new nadir during the rule of the three Harmunds, Harmund the Host, Harmund the Haggler, and Harmund the Handsome, the last of whom was overthrown and replaced with his brother, Hagon the Heartless. House Lannister led the westerlands in invading and crushing the ironborn, however, and Hoare Castle on Great Wyk was razed to the ground. They also suffered during the Famine Winter. The Hoares subsequently promoted trade with Lannisport, Oldtown, and the Free Cities.^[3]"

7. "Harmund I Hoare, known as Harmund the Host, was a King of the Iron Islands from House Hoare. The Hoare kings of his era were opposed by the drowned men because of their support for the Faith of the Seven, discouraging of reaving, and promotion of trade.^[1]"

8. "Lelia Lannister was a lady of House Lannister and Queen of the Iron Islands through her marriage to King Harmund II Hoare."

"Harmund II Hoare, known as Harmund the Haggler, spent his youth as a ward of the Lannisters at Casterly Rock. Once King of the Iron Islands, Harmund married Lady Lelia, the daughter of the King of the Rock and the "fairest flower of the west".^[1] Their children were raised in the Faith of the Seven.

When Lelia's eldest son became king as Harmund III Hoare, he was opposed by many ironborn and drowned men for his opposition to reaving, salt wives, and thralls."

Blond Andal Lann the Clever became ruler of Casterly Rock during Age of Heroes. After that happened Andal Invasion, after that marriage of Joffrey Lydden with daughter of Gerold III Lannister and multiple marriages of Andals and local First Men westerlanders, after that marriage of Lelia Lannister with Harmund II Hoare.

Daughters of Andal rulers, with whom Ironborn Hoares married, were LANNISTERS. Already BLOND Lannisters. Andals attacked Iron Islands thousands years after they arrived to Westeros. They attacked Iron Island from Westerlands, where they were already settled for many generations, and have build their Andal stone castles. At that time they were already descendants of blond Andal Lann the Clever, and blond Andal Lannisters-Lyddens, not anymore a First Men dark-haired Lannisters of Age of Heroes.

This is how Andals advanced with their Invasion in Westeros (Iron Island were the very last):

Spoiler

During their Invasion of Westeros, Andals first arrived to Fingers, from there attacked and seized The Vale. Then they went to Stormlands, and after seven times failing to conquer Storm's End, "Andals instead intermarried with the First Men storm lords; King Maldon IV and his son, Durran XXIV, for instance, married Andal maidens. The Andals swore to serve the Storm Kings, while King Ormund III and his queen converted to the Faith of the Seven.^[12]".

Some time after conquering The Vale, Andals went to Trident and Riverlans. They tried to attack The North, before they went to Riverlands, and again after they seized Riverlands.

"When the Andals attacked the eastern shores of the north, they were aggressively met by the Kings of Winter, House Stark of Winterfell, and their First Men bannermen.

The Hungry Wolf, King Theon Stark, was supported by House Bolton when the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar was slain in the Battle of the Weeping Water. Theon then sailed east, raided Andalos, and displayed the heads of his Andal victims along the shore of the north.^[13]

After the conquest of the Trident and the riverlands, the Andals began to attack the north from its south over land. However, every attack was thrown back by the crannogmen of the Neck or the strong fortifications of Moat Cailin; it is unknown how many Andal armies were destroyed in the Neck.^[5][6] Eventually, the Andals relented and the north was allowed to remain in peace^[5]"

Then they attacked Westerlands and The Reach. Native inhabitant of those regions fought against Andals for some time, but eventually submitted to them and intermarried with Andals.

"The Andals began to invade the westerlands after they conquered the Vale and the riverlands. Tybolt Lannister, the King of the Rock, defeated the first Andal warlord, and the next few attacks were also successfully defended by House Lannister.^[15]

As the Andals continued to march west, however, Kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages between their bannermen and the most powerful of the warlords. The children of the Andals were brought to Casterly Rock to serve as wards but also hostages. After the death of King Gerold III, his daughter's husband, the Andal Ser Joffrey Lydden, took the Lannister name. Other houses formed by the intermarriages included Houses Brax, Drox, Jast, Kyndall, Lefford, Marbrand, Parren, Sarsfield, and Serrett. In contrast to most First Men kings, the support of the Andals allowed the Kings of the Rock to expand their power.^[15]"

"The Andals arrived late in the Reach, after the invasions of the Vale, the riverlands, and the stormlands, as they were previously prevented from sailing there by the fleets of House Hightower of Oldtown and Redwyne of the Arbor. The Gardener kings of Highgarden prepared the defenses of the Kingdom of the Reach. King Gwayne IV sought help from the children of the forest, while King Mern II focused on fortification. King Mern III bestowed honors on a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead. The anticipated Andal attacks never occurred, however.^[16]

When the disunited Andals eventually reached the realm of the Gardeners generations later, they were welcomed by the Three Sage Kings: Garth IX, son Merle I, and grandson Gwayne V. Rather than resist, they granted lands, wives, and lordships to the most powerful Andals. Garth IX brought a septon to his court and built the first sept at Highgarden. Merle I, a convert to the Faith of the Seven, promoted the construction of septs, septries, and motherhouses across the Reach. Gwayne V was the first Gardener born into the new Faith and the first to be knighted. In order to integrate the newcomers, Merle I and Gwayne V took Andal brides, and all three kings accepted Andal knights and retainers into their service. For instance, Ser Alester Tyrell, the founder of House Tyrell, was made Gwayne V's champion and sworn shield.^[16][17]

House Hightower of Oldtown were amongst the first lords to welcome the Andals.^[18] Lord Dorian Hightower set aside his wife for an Andal princess and the stability of trade, and Lord Damon was the first Hightower to accept the Faith. After Damon's premature death, his son, the young Lord Triston, was raised and trained by Septon Robeson, who eventually became the first High Septon. Triston honored Robeson by building the Starry Sept, while Triston's son, Lord Barris Hightower, gave the High Septon his first crystal crown.^[18]"

"The Andals turned their attention to the Iron Islands a thousand years after their landing on the Fingers.^[6] As the Andals invaded and settled in the riverlands, westerlands, and the Reach, they began constructing new settlements and stout castles. These stronger defenses, combined with the Andals' sailing ability, weakened the grip of the ironborn on the Sunset Sea. The Andals then began to invade the Iron Islands in waves, often with the support of rival ironborn lords.^[19] "

By the time Iron Island were attacked, and their rulers subsequently intermarried with Andal brides, Westerlands already for many generations were ruled by blond Lannisters.

"The Iron Islands fall to the Andals a thousand years after the beginning of their invasion of Westeros,^[10]" - Andals invaded Westeros 6, 4 or 2 thousands years prior Aegon's Conquest. And that invasion laster for thousands of years, so Iron Islands were conquered by Andals not that long prior Aegon's arrival. By the time when happened those marriages between House Hoare and Andal brides, Dorne was already under rule of descendants of Mors Martell and his wife Rhoynar Queen Nimeria.

Sometime between 700 to 42 years BC this events happened:

"In the west, the ironborn of the Iron Islands rise to power; at their peak they control most of the western coast from Oldtown and the Arbor in the south to Bear Island in the north."

"The Rhoynar, fleeing the Valyrians, migrate to Dorne. This is the last major migration into Westeros."

And then in ~42 BC - "Harrenhal: Ironborn King Harren Hoare begins the construction of the castle Harrenhal, which will take most of his reign to complete."

So sometime less than 700 years prior Aegon's arrival, Ironborn has risen to power. After that Andals has build their fortifications against Ironborn, in Westerland and The Reach, which "weakened the grip of the ironborn on the Sunset Sea." That's when started decline of Ironborn, and that's when Andals attacked them.

First Ironborn King that allied with Andals and married with Andal bride was Harras Hoare, and the last King of Iron Island Harren Hoare was killed by Aegon I Targaryen, approhimately in a year 2 BC.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/King_of_the_Iron_Islands

From Harras to Harren, Iron Islands were ruled by 16 Kings. In span of 300 years between Aegon and Aerys, ruled 19 Targaryen Kings. That's approhimately 16 years per King. So if same calculation will be used on House Hoare, it's possible that first Hoare became King in a year 254 BC. That's a very approhimate and innacurate calculation, though it is obvious that Hoares became Kings of Iron Islands, only a few centuries prior Aegon's Conquest. So at that time, Lannisters were already Andals, and blond. So dark coloring of Hoares wasn't caused by Andal blood, but rather by their First Men blood. Because - "Some maesters believe that the First Men originated in the grasslands of Essos -- in the lands now known as the Dothraki Sea -- before beginning their long westward migration to Westeros.^[43]"

Dothraki are black-haired and black-eyed, same as Hoares, and same as Greyjois, that same as Hoares intermarried with Andals. If blond Andals married with dark-haired Ironborn, then their children also were darkhaired. And not all of their descendants also married with Andals, so in their gene pool still mostly prevailed dark color genes of First Men.

BB + bb = Bb <- dark hair.

What is more likely? -

1. First Men, that came from the same region of Essos, where black-haired and black-eyed Dothraki live, were also dark-haired and dark-eyed; while Andals were blond-haired and blue/green-eyed;

or 2. First Men, that lived in the same region as Dothraki, were blond; while Andals were black-haired and black-eyed?

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You are not basing on the entire population of the North, you are basing on one Nortern family, Starks,

WRONG. Other northeners:

Karstarks:  "Alys is a tall, skinny, coltish girl. She weaves her brown hair into a braid and has a small bosom. The pale girl has a long face, a pointy chin, blue-grey eyes, and small ears.^[3]" Arnolf Karstark has grey eyes. "Cregan Karstark is the eldest son of Arnolf Karstark". "Cregan has brown hair, a beard and mustache."

Boltons: dark hair and pale eyes, color of dirty ice, paler than stone and darker than milk,^[6]

Glover - "Robett is tall, with a deeply-lined face and brown-grey hair."

Mormont - "Jorah is a large middle-aged man, swarthy and hairy. He is black bearded and balding"

"Barbrey Dustin is still tall, unbent and handsome. She has wrinkles around her mouth and eyes, and her hair is equal parts brown and grey."

Wife of Wylis Manderly - Woolfield "Leona is a plump pink woman with yellow hair, and her face is round, pink and fleshy.^[2]" "Wylis is a very fat man, bald and with a large walrus mustache." <- hair color and eye color are uncknown, but their daughters - "Wynafryd has brown hair bound in a long braid.^[4] "Wylla has blond hair, longer than her sister Wynafryd's. She dyes it a garish green and wears it in a braid, but leaves her eyebrows blond." <- so mother is light-haired, while father is most likely has brown hair.

Mollen - "Hallis is muscular and has a square brown beard.^[1]"

Poole - "Jeyne is described as very pretty. She has brown eyes and dark hair.^[3] "

Reeds - "As is typical of crannogmen, Meera is short and slim. She has long brown hair^[3] and green eyes.^[4]" "Jojen is short and slim with unusually deep green eyes"

Blackwood - "Betha was known as Black Betha because of her dark eyes and hair."

Leobald Tallhart has pale blue eyes.

Beth Cassel has curly auburn hair. Her father Ser Rodrik is a stout man, broad, with large white whiskers.^[4] He was married three times, it isn't know who is Beth mother, or from what house she was. So it isn't known whether Beth's auburn hair is a genetic trait of northeners Cassels, or from whatever family her mother was.

 

So out of characters whose hair color was described, there are 12 people with brown/dark hair, 2 blondes, and 1 person with auburn hair.

12 dark-haired out of 15 people, that's 80% - majority.

Out of characters whose eye color was described, there are 3 with dark eyes, 2 with green eyes, 2 with pale eyes, 1 with blue-grey, and 1 with blue.

That's six people with not dark eyes, and 3 with dark.

But add to that mix brown-haired and grey-eyed Brandon Stark, Eddard Stark, Lyanna Stark, Benjen Stark, Jon Snow.

And that's 9 vs 6 - 60% of dark-eyed, and 40% of people with light colored eyes.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Are you for real? You are nitpicking information that suits your need, picking a single character that has the desired traits, while disregarding anything else and trying to bend stuff in to the way you like them to be

That's what you're doing.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dornish has three groups; Salty, Stony, Sandy. It is the Salty Dornish, like Martells, the Andal Family which married with Rhoynar, that has black hair and black eyes and they are olive skinned.  Sandy Dornish are even darker. Stony Dornish have brown and blonde hairs, like Yronwoods.

Yronwoods are NOT Andals.

Yronwoods are not Andals, but they live close to two Andal castles - castle Tor of Andal House Jordayne, and castle Hellholt of Andal House Uller. Yronwoods fought against their other neighbors Fowlers, and during Nymeria War fought against Martells.

"King Yorick V Yronwood was supported in Nymeria's War by his bannermen, Houses Blackmont, Jordayne, Qorgyle, and Wyl, among many others." Such Andal Houses as Jordaynes and Qorgyles were bannermen of Yronwoods.

So it's likely, not definitely, just likely, that House Yronwood intermarried with Andal Houses Jordaynes and Qorgyles. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So, you are suggesting that Dorne, filled with many Andal Houses, only received insignificant infusion of Andal blood so Andal Dornish lost their traits but Wildlings living North of the Wall, which is north of The North which is north of MC and Causeway, somehow received significant amounts of Andal blood and have plenty of blondes?

 

Does what you post really makes sense to yourself, internally? Or are you just trying to troll people here? Please inform me if it is the second one so I'll stop wasting my time on a petty troll.

And again, you're twisting my words.

In Dorne there was seven Andal Houses - Ullers, Qorgyles, Vaiths, Allyrions, Jordaynes, Santagars, and Martells.

During Nymeria War, Martell and Ullers alligned with Rhoynars. And most likely intermarried with them, and their gene pool was darkened. While 5 other Andal Houses, either fought against Rhoynars, or didn't participated in that conflict at all. So only 5 Houses out of all Andals, didn't mingeled with Rhoynars as mush as other 2 Houses, and First Men Houses natives of Dorne.

That's 5 "clean" Andal Houses against 2 "darkened" Andal Houses. So how come majority of Dorne population ended as dark-haired, dark-eyed and olive-skinned? That's because:

"On the day she wed Mors, forming House Nymeros Martell, Nymeria had her fleet burned to affirm that the Rhoynar could not return to Essos.^[3]The people of the Martell lands also intermarried with the Rhoynar, and the addition of the Rhoynar increased the strength of the Martells tenfold."

"After the defeat of the Rhoynish army by the Valyrian dragonlords in the Second Spice War, Princess Nymeria led the Rhoynar in exile from the Rhoyne aboard ten thousand ships. After years of wandering, the surviving Rhoynar, mostly women, children, and the elderly, landed at the mouth of the Greenblood in southeastern Dorne."

In Rhoynar fleet was 10,000 ships, that's 100,000-1,000,000 passengers. Majority of Dorne population were Rhoynars and First Men, while Andals became a minority.

"Prince Garin of Chroyane led the Rhoynar to early victories in the war, but his army of 250,000 men was crushed by 300 dragons commanded by the dragonlords of Valyria."

If there was 250,000 soldiers, and that men, then entire population was 1,000,000 people. 1/4 males, 1/4 females, 1/4 children of both genders, and 1/4 of elderly of both genders. Rhoynars build big ships, so one ship carried 100-500-1000 people.

 

I didn't said that amongst wildlings were many blonds. I did made a calculation according to which even one blond man, after 100 years of his arrival beyond The Wall, can have 100,000+ of his blond descendants, but he will also have 10-20 times more of his dark-haired descendants. Add to that that it is very cold on that side of The Wall, there's not enough of food and other resources, there are wild animals, and many wildling tribes fought against each other, many children were stillborn, many died young. So actually, with inclusion of all factors in that model, the resulting actual number of his descendants will be much lesser. Maybe just a few hundreds of blonds, per 100,000+ of wildlings.

 

What I'm writing has sense to me. And I'm not forcing you to reply to me.