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Genetic coding- 100% real world or fantasy for literature?


The Fattest Leech

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't think we will ever see Robert's other children, so we may never know... or not ;)

I think we will see another bastard on Estermont:

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There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm's End during the siege. "Her father was good to me," Robert told her, "and she and I would play together when the two of us were small." It did not take him long to start playing with her again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature.

 

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Martells already married into the same Lyseni family as did Viserys II (around the same generation), and thus the Martells may be carriers of recessive Valyrian genes.

I agree that Valyrian look of children can be explained by presence of recessive Valyrian genes in Martells and Daynes.

 In fact a number of noble houses could possess minor Valyrian ancestry, because they could had intermarried with descendants of Targaryen princessess – Rhaena (had six daughters with Hightower), Elaena (her children Plum, Penrose and Waters), Aerea and Rhaella (possibly had children), as well as with Valyrian houses Velaryons and Celtigars and noble Lyseni (like Rhogare).

But in this case firstborns non-Valyrian looking and younger Valyrian looking children could only be explained by pure coincidence. Cases with firstborn Valyrian looking child and younger children with their mother’s coloring are equally probable, though such cases are never mentioned so far.

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The Targ and Valyrian features fit the descriptions of various types of albinism.

I agree.  Incomplete albinism with very low concentration of melanin explains Valyrian features.  It’s caused by defective pigment–related genes. 

But if normal pigment-related genes could be turned off it would also lead to albinism. That’s why I favor theory of epigenetic origin of Valyrian albinism. In this case Valyrians don’t need to possess any recessive albinism allele at all, just normal color-related genes, only they are turned-off by some mysterious factor in their bodies (blood) which is transferred to their children (save of firstborns). Maybe similar patterns could also explain why traits of other houses (Lannisters, Lothstons/Whents, Durrandons/Baratheons) persist through generations even without high degree of incest.

Of course it is fantasy theory of inheritance, but it could work for sci-fi too.

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Hell you even have types that allow for cooler areas of the body to have normal melanin production (real world example - Siamese Cats), allowing for Daynes to be carriers of such a form of albinism;

So if Ashara Dayne went to North her nose and ears would turn black? So cute, I like this idea :D.

 

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16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't think we will ever see Robert's other children, so we may never know... or not ;)

I doubt that we will ever happen although I would expect Varys, at least,  would have kept track of all of Robert's dalliances since he has such a big interest in the value of royal bastards.  However, a claim by anyone else isn't easily supported.   We see as much with Bella.  So unless they have black hair/blue eyes, they wouldn't be much use to Varys of Littlefinger for that matter. 

Specifically Ned is looking for information on Baratheon/Lannister offspring:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

Interesting that there is no mention of eye color.   We're told of Baratheon/Lannister offspring and nothing else even though there is a gap of ninety years and one hundred and twenty years.  All we are really told is that gold yields to coal.

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Addition to my previous post about Elia's ancestors.

Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare were grandparents of Mariah and her brother Maron. Maron Martell and his wife Daenerys Targaryen were great grandparents of Elia.

So can Elia Martell be a carrier of a b-gene, if amongst her ancestors, carriers of bb genes, were 3 and 5 generations above her? -> Yes, she can.

Spoiler

6. Aliandra + Drazenko Rogare.

5. Their son + his spouse = Mariah and Maron.

4. Maron + Daenerys Targaryen.

3. Their son + his spouse = Elia's mother.

2. Elia's mother + her husband.

1. Doran, Elia, Oberyn.

She can. Even if aside from Drazenko and Daenerys, there was no more blondes, or carriers of Bb genes amongst her other ancestors.

Aliandra (1B2B) + Drazenko (3b4b) = 1B3b, 1B4b, 2B3b, 2B4b.

Son (1B3b, 1B4b, 2B3b, 2B4b) + Spouse (5B6B) = 1B5B, 1B6B, 3b5B, 3b6B, 4b5B, 4b6B, 2B5B, 2B6B <- Mariah Martell was one of those 4 gene models. To her son Baelor she passed her B gene, while to her son Maekar she passed her b gene. For grandchildren of Aliandra and Drazenko there was a 50/50 possibility to be BB or Bb.

From here on, let's take for Maron both kinds of models, 1-Bb and 2-BB:

1.1. Maron (3b5B, 3b6B, 4b5B, 4b6B) + Daenerys (7b8b) = 7b3b, 7b5B, 8b3b, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b4b, 8b4b <- their son. There was 50% of probability for Maron's son to be blond/light-haired, and 100% for him to be a carrier of Bb genes.

2.1. Maron (1B5B, 1B6B, 2B5B, 2B6B) + Daenerys (7b8b) = 7b1B, 7b5B, 8b1B, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b2B, 8b2B <- their son.

1.2. Son (7b3b, 7b5B, 8b3b, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b4b, 8b4b) + Spouse (9B10B) = 9B7b, 9B3b, 10B7b, 10B3b, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B4b, 10B4b <- Elia's mother. 8 models out of 12. Possibility for her to be a carrier b gene was 2/3.

2.2. Son (7b1B, 7b5B, 8b1B, 8b5B, 7b6B, 8b6B, 7b2B, 8b2B) + Spouse (9B10B) = 9B7b, 9B1B, 10B7b, 10B1B, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B2B, 10B2B <- Elia's mother. 4 models out of 12. Possibility for her to be a carrier b gene was 1/3.

1.3. Elia's mother (9B7b, 9B3b, 10B7b, 10B3b, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B2B, 10B2B) + Husband (11B12B) = 11B9B, 11B7b, 12B9B, 12B7b, 11B3b, 12B3b, 11B10B, 12B10B, 11B5B, 12B5B, 11B8b, 12B8b, 11B6B, 12B6B, 11B2B, 12B2B <- Doran, Elia, Oberyn. Chances for Elia to be a carrier of Bb genes were 37,5%, 6 Bb models out of 16 possible combinations.

2.3. Elia's mother (9B7b, 9B1B, 10B7b, 10B1B, 9B5B, 10B5B, 9B8b, 10B8b, 9B6B, 10B6B, 9B2B, 10B2B) + Husband (11B12B) = 11B9B, 11B7b, 12B9B, 12B7b, 11B1B, 12B1B, 11B10B, 12B10B, 11B5B, 12B5B, 11B8b, 12B8b, 11B6B, 12B6B, 11B2B, 12B2B <- Doran, Elia, Oberyn. Chances for Elia to be a carrier of Bb genes were 25%, 4 Bb models out of 16 possible combinations.

Elia's mother gave birth to 5 children, Elia was her fourth child. Thus Elia's 25%, are exactly that one child with Bb genes out of four.

Elia (Bb) + Rhaegar (bb) = Rhaenys (Bb), Aegon (bb)

And that's even in case if Maron Martell, wife of his son, and both parents of Elia, all four of them were carriers of BB genes.

Though that could be only in case, if there was no any carriers of Bb or bb genes in Dorne, aside from Drazenko and Daenerys. But we do know that it isn't true.

Edric Dayne has blond hair. Gerold Dayne has silver hair, divided by a streak of midnight black.

Dyanna Dayne married with Maekar Targaryen. Maekar's hair was silver-gold. Their first son Daeron had pale brown hair, and blond beard <- two colors, and he didn't get them from his father. So could be that Dyanna had the same kind of hair as Gerold Dayne. Either her hair was pale brown with bright blond streak, or blond hair with pale brown streak.

Ashara Dayne had black hair, while her nephew Edric (if he is really son of Ashara's older brother) has pale blond hair. For him to have this coloring, he has to be a carrier of bb genes, and that could happen only if both of his parents had at least one b gene each, and both were Bb, or one of them was Bb and the other was bb.

Mother (1B2b) + Lord Dayne (3B4b) = 1B3B, 1B4b, 2b3B, 2b4b <- Edric.

Or if mother was blond (5b6b) + Lord Dayne (3B4b) = 5b3B, 5b4b, 6b3B, 6b4b <- Edric.

Dyanna Dayne was carrier of b gene, Lord Dayne (Edric's father) was at least a Bb, Edric's mother was either Bb or bb, both parents of Gerold Dayne were either bb, or one of them was bb and the other was Bb, and from this second parent Gerold got his two colored hair. And for Lord Dayne to be a carrier of Bb genes, at least one of his parents also has to be either Bb or bb.

Aside from Daynes family, there are also other blondes in Dorne.

Stony Dornishmen, that live in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains, have fair skin, and brown or blond hair.

Nearly all Yronwoods (aside from Gwyneth) are blue-eyed blondes. Daemon Sand, bastard son of Ryon Allyrion has sky blue eyes, and light sandy brown hair. Fowler twins have yellow hair.

 

Prior Dorn's union with 6Ks, Lys was very close to Dorne. Prince Quoren, when he was yet unmarried, was supporting the Triarchy in a war against Targaryens. The Triarchy is a union from Valyrian Freehold - Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr.

"More than anywhere else in the known world, the blood of Old Valyria still runs strong in the Lyseni, who are regarded as beautiful. Even the smallfolk in Lys have the pale skin, silver-gold hair, and purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old."

Viserys Targaryen wanted to marry his daughter Rhaenyra with Quoren Martell. But when that didn't happened, he married her with Laenor Velaryon. Laenor was dragonrider and Valyrian, he had silver-white hair and purple eyes. Laenor had a bastard sons Alyn and Addam, both were dragonriders. Most likely they also had their father's Valyrian looks. Quoren's daughter Aliandra, not only married with a Valyrian man from Lys, but she also "showed great favor" (whatever that means) to Alyn Velaryon.

So who knows how many other Valyrians frequented Dorne, and mixed with locals. Could be that Prince Quoren, instead of marrying with Rhaenyra, has married with a Valyrian member of Triarchy. And Aliandra favoured Valyrians, because she herself was half-Valyrian thru her mother.

Elia's mother was friends with Joanna Lannister - blond, and wanted her children to marry with Jaime and Cersei - both blondes. Eventually she arranged marriage of her daughter with Prince Rhaegar - blond. Thus it's likely that Elia's mother favoured blondes. So could be that her husband was also blond. Or Elia's mother herself was blond.

That's a lot of could-bes and maybes, but the pure facts is that Martells three times married with Valyrians - Aliandra and Drazenko, Maron and Daenerys, Elia and Rhaegar. So it was possible for Elia to be a carrier of b gene, and transfer it to her child. And her childrens' looks has nothing to do with being firstborn or secondborn to a Targaryen parent with non-Targaryen spouse. It has everything to do with real genetic, same as in a real world.

 

I'm not saying that GRRM has mapped 300+ years of genetic traits of Targaryens and others, I'm saying that he just used logic and common sense, when he was giving certain looks to certain characters.

 

Edit: made a mistake in 1.3. - in case if Maron Martell was carrier of Bb genes, then for Elia chances to be a carrier of Bb genes were 37,5%, and not 25%. Possibility of 25% was only in case if Maron was BB.

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11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm not saying that GRRM has mapped 300+ years of genetic traits of Targaryens and others, I'm saying that he just used logic and common sense, when he was giving certain looks to certain characters.

I don't see any logic or common sense in the "genetic theories" proposed on this thread, really. Trying to make up a theory of inharitance for asoiaf is as futile as coming up with a two-star system to explain seasons in Planetos... it's not sci-fi, it's fantasy! 

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10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I don't see any logic or common sense in the "genetic theories" proposed on this thread, really. Trying to make up a theory of inharitance for asoiaf is as futile as coming up with a two-star system to explain seasons in Planetos... it's not sci-fi, it's fantasy! 

I agree m8

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On ‎09‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 4:10 PM, Lady Dacey said:

You're all fixated in BBs and bbs and Bbs but not even real world genetics works like this! It doesn't, really... some characteristics actually have no dominance at all (the offspring will show a mix of the genitors characteristics, such as a pink flower descending for a red and a white one, a Bb who does not look like a BB!). Most characteristics are poligenic. Epigenetics play a big role with haven't yet figured out in activating or supressing genes, in such a way an offspring can manifest a phenotitycal characteristic that was muted for several generations...

The kind of person I was looking for! Answer to my prayers!

Studying medicine (and being curious) I know a bit about genetics. One thing I know, Lyonization, got me thinking if such a thing also applied in Planetos, but, not having studied genetics, I don't know if other chromosomes are silenced like one of the Xs too. So here goes my question do the second copies of autosomes also get inactivated like one of the Xs in females? If yes, could GRRM have unwittingly introduced in his series advanced genetics information?

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15 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So here goes my question do the second copies of autosomes also get inactivated like one of the Xs in females?

No. Both autossomic chromosomes unfold and are metabolic active. That's really important for us diploids - we get one copy of each gene from mom and dad and usually both will be translating proteins simultaneously. 

 

18 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The kind of person I was looking for! Answer to my prayers!

 

That's strong! Thanks! I hope I can help. I'm NOT a geneticist though, but I took a course in human genetics two semesters ago at grad-level. I study human nutrition in Brazil, our universities work a little different than in the USA or Europe... so I took many courses in anatomy and physiology and histology and biochemistry and the like. I took human genetics two semesters ago, and embriology as an under-grad three years ago. 

Just don't expect me to contribute to any pseudo-scientific theory to explain obviously fantastic elements of these amazing books! 

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6 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's strong! Thanks! I hope I can help. I'm NOT a geneticist though, but I took a course in human genetics two semesters ago at grad-level. I study human nutrition in Brazil, our universities work a little different than in the USA or Europe... so I took many courses in anatomy and physiology and histology and biochemistry and the like. I took human genetics two semesters ago, and embriology as an under-grad three years ago. 

You did, yes. And your two semesters may still amount to more than my "three semesters" of genetics as we are only taught the very basics and from that it's a straight jump to which disease is caused by which gene.

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Just don't expect me to contribute to any pseudo-scientific theory to explain obviously fantastic elements of these amazing books! 

I knew my instincts were right haha!

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On 09.12.2017 at 2:41 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Just for eye color for example there are at least 16 different loci (places where genes are located) involved! It's definitely not as simple a simple AA x aa = Aa. Not even close. That's the exception of how inherited characteristics work, not the rule.

It makes no sense to try and understand asoiaf inheritance under the light of real world genetics. 

That's why I said many times that B b is a very simpified model, just to show basics. Of course there are different "markers" for eye color, hair color, skin color, height, shape of ears, shape of nose, etc, etc, etc. But it's too bothersome to use sheets of real genetic codes.

And about ASOIAF inheritance, could you give me any examples of it, that go against laws of real world genetic?

Something besides outcome of Targaryens incest. Because negative consequences of incest are present in Targaryens. That is their brand of madness, and many many miscarriages and stillborn children, and children that die in infancy, and possible physical or mental disability of Baelor the Blessed, and constant sicknesses of Jaehaerys II. 

Is there anything in ASOIAF that suggests that inheritance there works differently from how it works in real world?

Because so far, in many threads of this forum, whenever someone posted some example, that supposedly prove that ASOIAF has a separate brand of genetic, all those examples only showed, that actually everything was happening same as in real world.

  • Gold always yelding to coal, all children of union between Lannisters and Baratheons having dark hair, all of Robert's children having dark hair;
  • All Cersei's children being blondes (that's because both of their parents, and grandparents are blondes, and Robert isn't father of those children);
  • Robert and his brothers having dark coloring, despite their grandmother (Rhaelle) being a Targaryen;
  • Rhaenyra Targaryen, daughter of Jocelyn Baratheon and Viserys I Targaryen, having light hair and Valyrian looks;
  • Rhaenyra's three sons from her non-Valyrian lover, having non-Targaryen looks;
  • Children of Mariah Martell and Daeron II Targaryen having looks, one of his Dornish mother, others of their Targaryen father;
  • Children of Maekar Targaryen and Dyanna Dayne, Daeron having non-Targaryen looks, Aerion and Aegon V having typical Valyrian looks;
  • Elia's son Aegon having fair colored hair, despite his mother having dark hair;
  • Jon having dark hair and dark grey eyes of his mother Lyanna.

And what started all this debates about genetic in ASOIAF (on this thread, and many others, similar to this one), is this - gold always yelding to coal - some people thought, that it's not like that in real world, and thus they got an idea, that it means that GRRM has created his own brand of genetic for the world of ASOIAF, something different from the way how genetic works in real world.

If people want to discuss something, and are proposing their own theories for it, they can do that, because they have a right to express their own opinion, and are free to share their thought with others. :cheers:

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@Megorova Nicely put! I agree with you that by and large asoiaf genetics/inharitance is very very similar to our own. I just don't think we need to justify it with It BBs and bbs and Bbs, you see. It's mostly regular old real world genetics where we get 50% of our genetic makeup from each genitor and sometimes look more like one than the other.

I do think there are some elements of phantasy though. Some stuff that would not happen in real life and the real life rules of inharitance of characteristics (phenotype) couldn't explain. Let's go to "the seed is strong" thing: first of all, it wouldn't apply to Baratheon women - we're talking seed here. Also, it makes no sense at all in the real world that "the gold always yields to coal", because hair colour is not as simple as "Bb and BB genotypes manifest the same (black) phenotype". Blond people and black-haired people often produce... brown haired offspring! That's because brown hair is simply hair with the same pigment as black hair, only less of it. And because we have metabolic active genes from mom and dad, people with a very light haired genitor will probably not have as dark hair as the other genitor. It's not a simple case of dominance - not in the real world. Robert even has a targ grandma, it wouldn't be impossible for him to have fair haired kids in the real world, but it is in Planetos where the "Baratheon seed is strong". Also most male Baratheons looking so much like each other: uncanny. Not unheard of, but really unlikely. Same goes for Neds and Catelyn's children: it's super weird that four of them look "pure Tully" and one looks "pure Stark". Real world doesn't work like that, they would be all a mix, some favouring more one side than the other, but such a dichotomy is quite impossible to phantom in real life. And Jon who is the speaking image of his uncle with whom he shares at most 25% of his genetic makeup (assuming R+L=J here) but there is no trace whatsoever of his father who provided 50% of the DNA? Come on. All Lannisters of Casterly Rock have pretty curly hair while Lannisters of Lannisport have straight hair. "Family defyning features" are simply not so strong in the real world as they are in Martin's work. So I assume asoiaf genetics doesn't work like real world genetics, albait being very similar... while there a twists and bends where GRRM whishes there to be, there's no need for a theory of it's own.

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On 09.12.2017 at 3:38 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I guess they don’t take grandparents into much account when they talk about appearance. Take a look at the Velaryon sons of Rhaenyra; they’re part Arryn from their mother’s side (Rhaenyra’s mother was Aemma Arryn) and their grandmother Rhaenys, mother of Rhaenyra’s first husband Laenor is part Baratheon (her mother was Jocelyn Baratheon). But nooo, they’re the kids of Harwin Strong, because they can’t possibly be Valyrian. They gotta come down with an attitude, acting all big and bad...

Sorry for being picky, but I'll re-write your post in chronological order.

  • 1. Aenys I Targaryen + Alyssa Velaryon = 6 children, among them Jaehaerys I and Alysanne.
  • 2. Jaehaerys I Targaryen + Alysanne Targaryen = six children among them Alyssa and Baelon, Daella, Aemon.

Robar Baratheon + Alyssa Velaryon = Jocelyn Baratheon.

  • 3.1. Alyssa + Baelon = Viserys I, Daemon, +1.
  • 3.2. Daella Targaryen + Rodrick Arryn = Aemma Arryn.
  • 3.3. Aemon Targaryen + Jocelyn Baratheon = Rhaenys Targaryen.

Corlys Velaryon + Rhaenys Targaryen = Laena and Laenor Velaryon.

  • 4. Aemma Arryn + Viserys I Targaryen = Rhaenyra Targaryen.

Rhaenyra Targaryen + (supposedly) Laenor Velaryon = Jacaerys, Lucerys, Joffrey.

  • 5. Rhaenyra Targaryen + Daemon = Aegon III, Viserys II, Visenya.

If you think that non-Targaryen looks of Rhaenyra's first three sons (who were supposedly children of her Valyrian husband Laenor Velaryon), were inherited from their grandmother Aemma Arryn, then why did her children from her second, also Valyrian looking, husband Daemon Targaryen, had Valyrian looks?

Grandmother from mother's side, of those five children, Aemma Arryn was half-Targaryen thru her mother Daella.

Also Aemma's own grandmother was Alyssa Velaryon.

If first three of Rhaenyra's children, in your opinion, inherited supposedly Arryn's looks of their maternal grandmother Aemma, or maybe from their maternal great grandfather Rodrick Arryn, then shouldn't it be the same for Aemma herself? In this case, wasn't Aemma supposed to get looks of her maternal grandmother Alysanne Targaryen, or her maternal great grandfather Aenys I Targaryen? Their (supposedly) paternal grandmother was Jocelyn Baratheon (blond), and based on looks of her (also blond) daughter Rhaenys Targaryen, and (also blond) grandson Laenor Velaryon, it was impossible for Jocelyn to pass to her offsprings any dark coloring features of Baratheons. 

From their paternal grandmother (Jocelyn Baratheon), first three children, could have inherited only Valyrian looks. From their paternal grandmother (Alyssa Targaryen), last two children, also could have inherited only Valyrian looks.

But let's assume that those children inherited looks of Arryns. Out of all Arryns whose description we know, there is only Jon Arryn. "As a younger man he resembled Harrold Hardyng, who has blue eyes, blonde hair, and an aquiline nose.[7] "

And this looks are similar to looks of Laenor Velaryon "Laenor had an aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes.[2] "

Though there's also Harrold Hardy, Jon's hair and great-nephew, and partially Arryn thru his grandmother Alys Arryn: "Harry is very handsome. He has sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles.[3] According to semi-canon sources, he has an aquiline nose, and looks every inch a young lord-in-waiting: straight as a lance, clean-limbed, and hard with muscle. It is said that Harrold has the look of Jon Arryn in his youth.[1] "

If those three children looked like Arryns, then why did people suspected that their father was Harwin Strong? And who were Joffrey Lonmouth and Qarl Correy? And how did Laenor managed to father three children if he and Rhaenyra lived separately?

"Laenor was knighted a fortnight before his wedding with Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen in 114 AC. His groom and likely lover, Ser Joffrey Lonmouth, was mortally wounded by Ser Criston Cole during the wedding's tourney. Laenor refused to leave Joffrey's side during his passing. Laenor returned to High Tide while Rhaenyra remained at court in King's Landing. Laenor eventually found a new favorite, the household knight Ser Qarl Correy.[2]

Ser Laenor and Princess Rhaenyra had three sons, Princes Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon, the last named after Joffrey Lonmouth. It was noted none of the children resembled either Laenor or their mother in appearance, causing many to suspect that the children's real father was Ser Harwin Strong.[2]"

They married when Laenor was 20 years old, and he died when he was 26 years old, in 120. First son was born in 114, second in 115, third in 117. Also he supposedly fathered two bastards - Addam in 114, and Alyn in 115. So in span of four years, 114-117, gay man fathered FIVE children? And those two bastards were legitimized because of Corlys Velaryon, who people suspected of being their real father.

So maybe, if people suspect adultery, then there actually was adultery? :huh:

It is possible that those three, really were children of Laenor, but with adding of all facts together, it seems very very unlikely.

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11 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Same goes for Neds and Catelyn's children: it's super weird that four of them look "pure Tully" and one looks "pure Stark". Real world doesn't work like that, they would be all a mix, some favouring more one side than the other, but such a dichotomy is quite impossible to phantom in real life. And Jon who is the speaking image of his uncle with whom he shares at most 25% of his genetic makeup (assuming R+L=J here) but there is no trace whatsoever of his father who provided 50% of the DNA? Come on.

I've seen enough families where most kids look like one parent and absolutely nothing at all like the other parent for this to be believable.

It's also extremely common (in my family at least) for a kid to look more like an aunt or uncle or grandparent (or even a great aunt or great uncle or great grandparent) than either parent. Jon looking just like Ned and absolutely nothing like Rhaegar meshes well with what I've empirically observed.

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My knowledge of genetics is similar to Septon Barth, so arm yourselves with patience please. 

Will you for a moment consider this option? Imagine for a moment that Targaryens are not the same race as humans. They look similar but they are not the same, I mean, they are different species of humanoids. If you remember Ibbenese, they could be different species too, I think. What would happen if individuals of such species tried to crossbreed with people? Wouldn't their problems be similar as Targaryen problems with children, stillborn, malformed, born premature? 

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12 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

 

I do think there are some elements of phantasy though. Some stuff that would not happen in real life and the real life rules of inharitance of characteristics (phenotype) couldn't explain. Let's go to "the seed is strong" thing: first of all, it wouldn't apply to Baratheon women - we're talking seed here. Also, it makes no sense at all in the real world that "the gold always yields to coal", because hair colour is not as simple as "Bb and BB genotypes manifest the same (black) phenotype". Blond people and black-haired people often produce... brown haired offspring! That's because brown hair is simply hair with the same pigment as black hair, only less of it. And because we have metabolic active genes from mom and dad, people with a very light haired genitor will probably not have as dark hair as the other genitor. It's not a simple case of dominance - not in the real world. Robert even has a targ grandma, it wouldn't be impossible for him to have fair haired kids in the real world, but it is in Planetos where the "Baratheon seed is strong". Also most male Baratheons looking so much like each other: uncanny. Not unheard of, but really unlikely. Same goes for Neds and Catelyn's children: it's super weird that four of them look "pure Tully" and one looks "pure Stark". Real world doesn't work like that, they would be all a mix, some favouring more one side than the other, but such a dichotomy is quite impossible to phantom in real life. And Jon who is the speaking image of his uncle with whom he shares at most 25% of his genetic makeup (assuming R+L=J here) but there is no trace whatsoever of his father who provided 50% of the DNA? Come on. All Lannisters of Casterly Rock have pretty curly hair while Lannisters of Lannisport have straight hair. "Family defyning features" are simply not so strong in the real world as they are in Martin's work. So I assume asoiaf genetics doesn't work like real world genetics, albait being very similar... while there a twists and bends where GRRM whishes there to be, there's no need for a theory of it's own.

Do you know about selfish DNA? They are genes having a higher chance to be in the gametes rather  than roughly %50. So traits preserved have some real life basis after all. Granted this is a new find, GRRM had no way of knowing it, but perhaps he fantasised about it?

You can search for the r2d2 Mouse gene.

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12 hours ago, essosi watch said:

Imagine for a moment that Targaryens are not the same race as humans. They look similar but they are not the same, I mean, they are different species of humanoids. If you remember Ibbenese, they could be different species too, I think. What would happen if individuals of such species tried to crossbreed with people? Wouldn't their problems be similar as Targaryen problems with children, stillborn, malformed, born premature? 

I think that it's possible.

Though even if original Valyrians were from different species, later they for centuries were crossbreeding with original inhabitants of Essos. As result in Essos apeared the race of Andals, that had white skin, blond hair, and blue eyes. Then, not to be totally obliterated by Valyrian genes, they escaped from Essos, and invaded Westeros. They settled all over Westeros, but eventually mixed with First Men, and thru this lost their Valyrian genes.

While in secluded locations, they still maintained some of Valyrian genes - like Arryns from mountains of The Vale, blond and blue-eyed, that claim that they are the purest Andals in 7K; like Lannisters from also mountainous area; like Stony Dornishmen from the Red Mountains, nearly all of them have white skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

So current Targaryens are nearly the same as other human races of Planetos. And the main reason for their "misfortunes", is that because of constant incest, they have a very limited pool of genes. For example in those models, from my calculations, there are frequently happened cases, when Targaryen baby was getting from both of its parents same gene - b1b1, instead of having two different genes like b1b2, or b3b10, etc. So all those children were either stillborn, miscarried, died in infancy, were mentally ill, were sickly their entire lives, etc.

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