Who Really Came 1st?

[Curled Finger]

@AlaskanSandman, I knew you would bring some very interesting things to this conversation.   I'm in no position to answer for any of our brilliant posters here, but I do know a good thing when I see it.   I'm not as well-versed on the elder races if you will, as some, obviously you are.   That's the point of my topics.   Teach me, tell me a story, answer some questions.   We have so much going on here and I have this tiny opportunity to show that I do know a little something from ancient days.   I think I mentioned Owen Oakenshield in the OP.   He is the product of the union between Garth Greenhand and a giantess. More interbreeding among the ancients.  Again, why isn't giant capitalized when Deep Ones is?   Weird.    Thanks for adding more to our origins dig.   Feel free to come back any time.   It's good stuff, Man.  

[hiemal]

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

@Curled Finger  Tremendous conversation to start with some real tantalising theories getting thrown about! While I can't offer a solid answer of my own to your original question, I would like to reference the human connection to the carvers of the Seastone chair.

@hiemal Your work in this thread has been awesome and you paint a fantastic picture of potential early events. As you have a fondness for the ocean centred aspect of things, how do you and our OP feel the members of House Codd may play into proceedings?

Apparently the least regarded of the reaving IB houses, I feel that they themselves may offer plenty of hints towards the nature of the Deep Ones, Squishers and Merlings - perhaps more evidence hidden in plain sight from George.

Maester Theron's illustrations in the ominously titled "Strange Stones" postulates that the religion of the Drowned God had it's beginnings with the Deep Ones, which is interesting considering the priests of the Drowned God like Sauron Salt Tongue would tell you that the Ironborn are more closely related to aquatic life than they are to the humans of the green lands.

What's odd about this is that a fish like appearance is more common in areas such as The Three Sisters, Isle of Toads or Thousand Isles than it is on the Iron Isles. In saying that, we do have the members of House Codd. 

Here is a description of Dagon Codd.

"Is that a threat?" One of the Codds pushed to his feet. A big man, but pop-eyed and wide of mouth, with dead white flesh. He looked as if his father had sired him on a fish ADWD, Theon II:

We also have the captain of the Lamentation, "Bloodless" Tom Codd. This handle could be related to the famous Codd cowardice, but considering Tom is a ship captain, I think it more likely points at "dead white flesh".

House Codd has an ill repute on the Iron Islands, itself a place with the worst reputation in Westeros, which really tells you how bad these people must be.

"The Codds were there, though every decent man despised them"  - A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"One of the Codds even tried to kiss Lord Ramsay's ring, but the hounds drove him back before he could get close, and Alison took a chunk of his ear. Even as the blood streamed down his neck, the man bobbed and bowed and praised his lordship's mercy". - A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

In these quotes we see the Codds engage begging to Ramsay in a very unsightly manner. Considering the Ironborn culture is rooted in rape and reaving,  something the Codds enjoy, what constitutes as "indecent behaviour" to the IB? Is it simply the cowardly acts such as kissing Ramsays ring which draws  the ire of their country men, or something more sinister?

One angle we could look at is the similiar behavioural patters displayed by certain members of House Codd and the various humanoid aquatic races, each of whom may of course be one and the same

• "Though All Men Do Despise Us," Tris said, "but if they catch you in those nets of theirs, you'll be as dead as if they had been dragonlords". -  A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter
• At some point Left-Hand Lucas Codd decided he wanted one of Lord Hewett's daughters, so he took her on a table whilst her sisters screamed and sobbed. A Feast for Crows - The Reaver
• "The Codds were not well regarded in the Iron Islands; the men were said to be thieves and cowards, the women wantons who bedded with their own fathers and brothers. It did not surprise him that his uncle had chosen to leave these men behind when the Iron Fleet went home.” - Theon Greyjoy's thoughts at Moat Cailin

Here we see the Codds being described as having strange sexual habits, a fondness for sexual abuse and an apparent gift for "trapping" if those nets are anything to go by.

What's the story with those nets anyway? One would think having strong fishing equipment would endear a brood to the general Iron Men populace in some ways. "As dead as if they had been Dragonlords" seems like quite the compliment for Asha to bestow on a family of cravens, giving a good insight into how brutal the Codds can be to the people they catch.

Compare this to the following description of the squishers

"They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind those blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth."

Essentially, the Codds look like the squishers, and both are known to kidnap/trap their victims before either murdering or breeding with them. Whether or not this is a result of the ancestors of House Codd being some of those small kids taken by the squishers one can not say, but the description of the family's forefathers being "thralls and salt wives" could be construed as slaves and hostages of these grim ocean dwellers.

"Though all men do despise us" - the words of House Codd. Perhaps this is some loose reference to the Deep Ones, Squishers or such. 

We also have Dagon Codd's infamous "Dagon Codd yields to no man" bit - this could also be looked at as Dagon having a distane for humans, perhaps he would be more than willing to yield for some squamous, fish headed type.

I'm not trying to say that House Codd will be some important factor in the next books, but I do believe this lowly family serve as evidence towards the inter species breeding mentioned by@Faera and @kissdbyfire. The white skinned net weilders might even have a stronger blood link to The Grey King, Deep Ones or Drowned God than the rest of the Iron Born.

There are the stories of people laying with beasts from various places like Asshai and Gorgossos, as well as the seal based rumours surrounding House Farwynd, the Crannogmen's connection to the COTF and the various Ocean based mythologies, much evidence, yet still no clarity.

The Codds! They certainly have the "Innsmouth" look- I wonder if their low social standing might prevent them from bringing in fresh blood from the Mainland so that they have a more concentrated dose of the "old blood" and express their ancestry more clearly?

The name "Left-Hand Lucas" seems significant, as well- what might the Ironborn consider sinister? And Dagon? Might as well call him 'Chthulhu Jr".

Good call!

[hiemal]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet, the Old Ones, and the Deep Ones seem to share close quarters in those caves that plunge down into sunless sea's.  These Fisher Queens or Deep Ones seem to have mixed with men too.

I have a couple tinfoils on that: The Old Ones in the Labyrinth beneath Leng are Deep Ones who chose to retreat beneath the Earth (Lovecraft's Mountains of Madness) -or- the Old Ones are the last remnants of the Mazemakers (shout out the Zelazny's Amber)- who could well be the "Missing Link" in the CotF ancestry, the ancestral from of Children and Giants. If the Fisher Queens have fallen into this company than they have fallen far indeed I'm hoping they are more closely linked to the Rhoynish but I can see where you are going.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Azor Ahai i think is the mix between these two and men. Making for a trifecta 

I would say this is spot on, i would take it further too. By saying that this struggle was brought to a head by our mythic Brandon Stark (Brave one of the Beacon hill- Hightower), Uthor of the Hightower, Hugor of the Hill, Huzhor Amai, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero.

Born son of the Opal Emperor, and son of the Last of the Fisher Queens. He is of both sides though, he is the first son of Ice and Fire. Brother to the opposition. The Crow vs the Raven.

I'm on the fence as to whether Azor Ahai, The Prince That Was Promised, and the Last Hero are one person or three. My best guess atm is Azor Ahai is BSE, TPTWP is his nephew, and Last Hero his son. I'll probably give another answer later.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though, i go back and forth about power. Do the Deep Ones and the Old Ones share the same type of power? or is their power different? What exactly was the fire stolen more or less.

Take the greasy black stone. Is this a power of the Deep Ones? Or the Old Ones?

Deep Ones, I suspect. Their power is mutation and corruption.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

This makes me think of that greasy black magic rock.

 

What's more, is i question the COTF and who they are entirely. Are they even special? Who's to say their not just mutated humans? Living in caves too long. Gorne's children? 

 

I wish I knew. My thoughts are that they could be humans who have been mutated either by the weirwoods or by the Deep Ones to act as intermediaries and psychopomps for the weirnet. They could be manufactured creatures created directly by the trees- literally Children of the Forest. Or they could be, as mentioned above, descendants of the Mazemakers and cousins to Giants and Lengii who bought into the weirnet while their cousins did not.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Weirwood Trees...WTF. I can not help but think that they are alive and the source of all the magic. The Cotf we're just the first possibly to tap into it, but humans learned eventually. These trees grow like an organism spreading though out the tunnel system of caves running through out westeros and essos. 

 

I can't help but wonder if the Tree's are not as ancient as they claim, but actually came with what ever crashed into earth. 

 

For all i can tell, Bran just drank the seeds and may grow into his own Heart Tree with a face and all.

Or half of it? White stones (weirwood seeds) and black (oily black stone) from space bringing aliens from the native life by mutation?

[Tom Cruise]

Wouldn't the CotF consider humans to be Giants?

 

Actually I was just thinking this in jest as I read the OP.... but has this ever been considered?

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Perhaps I could have elaborated a bit on why I think the FM were mere non-magical humans...

We don't really have anything pointing towards them being anything other than "normal", non-magical humans. We know they were afraid of the weirwoods, and used to think the carved faces were spying on them - which they were, obviously! And we never hear of anything magical in relation to the first FM. I don't know, but if they had any kind of magical powers, latent or not, shouldn't we have read something about it by now? What would be the point of revealing in book 6 or 7 that the FM had their own magics when they first arrived in Westeros? What imapact could this reveal have on the story? Maybe something along the lines of their own natural supernatural powers making them a perfect/good fit to join in, as it were, with the CotF? Still, I don't think it would fundamentally change anything; the story would still be exactly where it is now. That, added to not having heard anything about inherent pre-Westeros FM having any sort of magical power leads me to think they didn't have any. All pure speculation, of course, and fully acknowledging I could be totally wrong!

 

Are you a lawyer or just a brilliant researcher?   You laid out a very nice case for the 1st Men obtaining their magics after arriving.  I almost want to get down and dirty Perry Mason style, but it's such a nice argument why try to knock it?  As I said, I don't believe one thing over another.   I'm just after some answers here (to expand my selfish wonder).  I'm enjoying this conversation from top to bottom, believers and nay sayers, and those with great imagination.  

As to your points, I don't think it matters to our current story when the 1st Men got their magic.   I think it might matter who and how, but when is irrelevant in the face of R+L=J, Jojen Paste, 3EC and so much I can't even list here.  I would be delighted if you could tell me your thoughts about those 4 Northern Kings; who they are and what their magic is.  Thanks so much for your contributions to this conversation. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

Wouldn't the CotF consider humans to be Giants?

 

Actually I was just thinking this in jest as I read the OP.... but has this ever been considered?

You know, Mr. Cruise, I described the giants as looking like Big Foot or Sasquatch or whatever Abominable Snow Men are called in your neck of the world.   This was based on a drawing in AWOIAF.   I think humans and giants are diverse enough in physical appearance that it would be obvious they are not the same.   That said, you have me wondering what exactly the COTF did call the 1st Men?   Surely if humans could saddle them with a handle, the Children, the same would be expected from the Children to men?   

Hrm...another mystery!   Thanks a million for that!  

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It would seem that the Children are one of the Elder, non-human races of the Ice and fire world. They were likely the original inhabitants of Westeros, at the time when the Deep Ones ruled the oceans, and some ancient non-human civilizations ruled the Far East.

The giants appear to be a species distantly related to humans, given that they are able to interbreed successfully with humans and produce living offspring that can procreate in turn. There is no evidence that this is possible between humans and the Children. In fact, considering the fundamental differences such as them having only three fingers for example, it seems almost certain that they are from an entirely different species to humans, and therefore incapable of interbreeding with people.

We have hints that the Children have lived in Westeros for a million years, whereas giants most likely arrived there sometime later, as part of the various proto-human migrations from wherever the ape-human family originated in the Ice and Fire World - probably from Sothoryos or Essos.

 

Plausible.  I wonder what you make of the manners in which these races migrated to Westeros?  Yes, I am still stuck on transportation being some sort of clue.  I'm not completely there, but I am thinking there were as you say COTF, giants then men.  From different places by different means.  Some walked and others came by boat.  I read that Westeros is not connected to anything the north, which indicates to me that once the Arm of Dorne was broken it became an unattached continent.  You place the Deep Ones at the beginning with the elder races, so let's assume they are present at or near the time the COTF appeared.  (I'm still getting my head around these aquatic races)  Essos is plentiful with humans and sort of humans.  I'm thinking the 1st Men were different according to the time they appeared--or something like that.   Any thoughts on any of that?   

Nonetheless the voice of reason and rationality is always welcome around here.   

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It is in opposition to squishers being aquatic creatures. There could be folks of aquatic origins, and I believe it is possible that users of oily black stone were an aquatic folk, with it seen mostly close to sea, but even then there are examples of it used far away from the sea; Five Forts But then again, there was an inland sea somewhere nearby if I'm not mistaken so again, possibly of aquatic origin.

Who knows, perhaps it were creatures of deep see somehow being able to spend some time on the surface but they used those stones that drink the light because they are accustomed to the darkness of the depths.

You know, about a year ago a beloved poster here on the forum took it upon himself to teach me about "elementals" in our tale.   I'm not a gamer not do I read much sci fi or comics.  Whole new world to me, Man.  I think (but not 100% sure) that the Deep Ones are capable of living under water and on land for periods of time.   I'm going to feel very stupid if it's not the Deep Ones.   Taking your idea about the oily black stones just a step further or just a thrill ride...how about those oily black stones were sort of "touchstones" for the Deep Ones so they could transform from aqua to firma?  On the same hand maybe the weirwoods are the same sort of touchstone for the Old Gods, allowing them to interact with the inhabitants of Westeros from where ever it is they dwell.  This is an interesting concept, Corvo.  Keep it coming, Man. 

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, indeed, but so does the SSM which says something like 'don't attribute everything to magic if you can find a natural explanation', which is why I try to first eliminate the impossible, and then see what's left. A lot of the theories tend to fly straight to the magic without discounting the fact that history is the world's most prolific and deliberate unreliable narrator - and we know how George loves those.

 

I'm also wary of extrapolating too much from turns of phrase as well, just one example (sorry, Leo, not picking on you especially):

Note that Theon says

There's a lot said in that 'as if'. It says it isn't really so, it's just 'as if'.

That's why I'm cautious about many of the claims Westreosi make about each other. I don't believe there is any PROOF in the books of giants interbreeding with humans, just lots of big men looking 'as if' they were sired by giants. Obviously if anyone can point to some text that offers PROOF of such cross-breeding, I will revise my view.

A certain degree of gigantism is normal in human populations, same with dwarfism, webbed-digits, albinism etc etc. In our own world there is a particular 'hot spot' of gigantism in Ireland, which dates back over 2,500 years according to geneticists, and well placed for provoking much of the giant folklore found in that part of the world (see here for more) We need not attribute this sort of occurence to interbreeding with another species of actual giants because it can happen naturally amongst a purely human population. It's 'as if' these people had giants as ancestors. 

You see, part of what I think George is getting at is how insufficient knowledge of others (note the small 'o' ...) leads people (us) to exagerrate differences, to privilege our own cultures over theirs, and to create grand narratives for ourselves to justify our prejudices and the way we lord it over and exploit others. And to some degree in a tribal world a lot of that may be necessary for social cohesion.

We really don't have to look THAT far back in our history to find Western Europeans believing that dog-headed men and centaurs lived on the Eurasian steppe, and some of the creatures ascribed to parts of Africa are just as fantastic as some of the tales of Essos or Sothyros. 'Here be dragons' on a map usually means 'we never went that far', not literally that there were dragons wafting around Earth in the 15th-century. Centaurs turned out to be mounted archers, and dog-headed men still haven't been seen (although the practice of facial scarification amongst certain steppe nomads could easily explain features that to Western eyes are bestial and ugly).

 

Coming back to the Ironborn - as I said above, they are indistinguishable by and large from other men physically. They may have been another wave of First Men with ships - but ships are only a technology, and all technologies appear with one group or another first before others take it up, like fire, iron etc etc. What distinguishes the Ironborn truly is their culture - that accumulation of technology, belief, and narrative they use to differentiate themselves. Even in the Ironborn chapters, we do not, as readers, SEE any merlings, Deep Ones, squishers or selkies - their existence is purely narrative. On the other hand, we DO see giants, Children/Singers, dragons, Others. And I tend to think this is deliberately written to make us question what is real magic and what is cultural bragadoccio. On the general basis of 'text or it didn't happen', I still maintain the latter far outweighs the former.

 

 

Wow.  That was really well said.  I suspect you're right about a lot of this.   To be honest, the magic in story sort of crept up on me.   It wasn't until AWOIAF was published that I really became aware and interested in it.   I'm good if Roose Bolton isn't an immortal skinchanger--but it's a great story.  But I can't say there weren't actual mating experiments based in magic (as a replacement for technology).  I think you're spot on for most of it, I just caution you not to ignore the magic completely.   Westeros at the very least, is experiencing a waxing of magic after a long absence. Powers are waking.   In that there is bound to be an increase and revealing of magic.   Ours is just evident in trees with faces that bleed red tears and 127 year-old men living in their roots and dragons.  Origins help us understand where the present is and future may go.   I will take conversations here on the forum over Mel's visions any day of the week.   But she is really having visions.   

I can plainly see Ice and Fire in this tale.  There is no reason Earth, Air and/or Water don't have a stake in the game.  I would be a poor teacher about elementals, but it seems to be a running theme.   I think the Ironborn were the 1st humans to reach Westeros.   I don't think they came from the same place as either the 1st Men or the Andals.  Did they originate in the watery halls?   Sure, why not?   They are still very human at the time the story is told, with a few exceptions here and there.   But they didn't come from the watery halls to Westeros.   That happened in boats.   I want to know where they came from immediately prior to landing on the Iron Islands.   It's a pleasure to see all this great imagination and memory and research and caution.   The forum has been very boring for me lately.   Thanks to you, for brightening my experience today.   

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@AlaskanSandman, I knew you would bring some very interesting things to this conversation.   I'm in no position to answer for any of our brilliant posters here, but I do know a good thing when I see it.   I'm not as well-versed on the elder races if you will, as some, obviously you are.   That's the point of my topics.   Teach me, tell me a story, answer some questions.   We have so much going on here and I have this tiny opportunity to show that I do know a little something from ancient days.   I think I mentioned Owen Oakenshield in the OP.   He is the product of the union between Garth Greenhand and a giantess. More interbreeding among the ancients.  Again, why isn't giant capitalized when Deep Ones is?   Weird.    Thanks for adding more to our origins dig.   Feel free to come back any time.   It's good stuff, Man.  

Thank you and that's how we all take it in and learn  

Owen Oakenshield i think is further hint that Garth's family we're giants. I still wonder at what point these giants went away. Look at some of the descriptions of Harrenhal, especially from Arya. Hard to tell if this is just an exaggeration by a tiny Arya or a legit comparison. Based of descriptions, it does sound mighty big for such a small group of Iron born. How frickin big could Harren's army have been? Idk, i still need to do a detailed search on Giants, but a quick search brought up sooooo many references, idk where to begin haha and thank you again  

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

I have a couple tinfoils on that: The Old Ones in the Labyrinth beneath Leng are Deep Ones who chose to retreat beneath the Earth (Lovecraft's Mountains of Madness) -or- the Old Ones are the last remnants of the Mazemakers (shout out the Zelazny's Amber)- who could well be the "Missing Link" in the CotF ancestry, the ancestral from of Children and Giants. If the Fisher Queens have fallen into this company than they have fallen far indeed I'm hoping they are more closely linked to the Rhoynish but I can see where you are going.

Well just my take, they very well could have been more akin to the Rhoynar and normal

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

I'm on the fence as to whether Azor Ahai, The Prince That Was Promised, and the Last Hero are one person or three. My best guess atm is Azor Ahai is BSE, TPTWP is his nephew, and Last Hero his son. I'll probably give another answer later.

Well are we speaking of the OG Azor Ahai, the current possible one?

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

I wish I knew. My thoughts are that they could be humans who have been mutated either by the weirwoods or by the Deep Ones to act as intermediaries and psychopomps for the weirnet. They could be manufactured creatures created directly by the trees- literally Children of the Forest. Or they could be, as mentioned above, descendants of the Mazemakers and cousins to Giants and Lengii who bought into the weirnet while their cousins did not.

They almost sound like something that would form after a Long Night and many ages beneath the Earth in the dark. To develop large cat like eyes to see in the dark. Almost like the Eloi of the Time Machine (forgive me if i spelled that wrong.) 

 

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

Or half of it? White stones (weirwood seeds) and black (oily black stone) from space bringing aliens from the native life by mutation?

Ahhhh, see im torn on this. Cause, if a white weirwood can turn to white stone that may or may not still hold souls in it. Then the Blue Black Barked Tree's of Qarth that the Shade of the Evening is made from, should like wise turn into a Black Stone that drinks the light like the trees to, in contrast to the weirwoods, which glow a milk white like the Black Gate. 

I suspect that Dragon Steel is made with these trees for the Carbon to add to Iron to make magical steel. Dawn being of weirwoods, and westeros. While Valyrian steel is black and made of the Trees of the East.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

Wouldn't the CotF consider humans to be Giants?

 

Actually I was just thinking this in jest as I read the OP.... but has this ever been considered?

Well, that is a good point haha hmm

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Are you a lawyer or just a brilliant researcher?   You laid out a very nice case for the 1st Men obtaining their magics after arriving.  I almost want to get down and dirty Perry Mason style, but it's such a nice argument why try to knock it?  As I said, I don't believe one thing over another.   I'm just after some answers here (to expand my selfish wonder).  I'm enjoying this conversation from top to bottom, believers and nay sayers, and those with great imagination.  

As to your points, I don't think it matters to our current story when the 1st Men got their magic.   I think it might matter who and how, but when is irrelevant in the face of R+L=J, Jojen Paste, 3EC and so much I can't even list here.  I would be delighted if you could tell me your thoughts about those 4 Northern Kings; who they are and what their magic is.  Thanks so much for your contributions to this conversation. 

Because there is nothing like self gained or researched knowledge. Difference between wisdom and knowledge according to Socrates 

Edit- meaning, if you like her idea, research it  more, explore it more, it may lead to more  this is the fun of it all IMO

[AlaskanSandman]

I think it's quite possible that the First men didn't know magic and that @kissdbyfire has a great idea as we have no guarantee that the Empire of the Dawn began in Essos. It very well could have began in Westeros. This is something iv'e always kind of questioned about the order of event's that we're told

[hiemal]

28 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Well are we speaking of the OG Azor Ahai, the current possible one?

OG.

30 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

They almost sound like something that would form after a Long Night and many ages beneath the Earth in the dark. To develop large cat like eyes to see in the dark. Almost like the Eloi of the Time Machine (forgive me if i spelled that wrong.)

Makes sense. The CotF do seem to be associated with caves and hollow hills as well as the weirwoods.

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Ahhhh, see im torn on this. Cause, if a white weirwood can turn to white stone that may or may not still hold souls in it. Then the Blue Black Barked Tree's of Qarth that the Shade of the Evening is made from, should like wise turn into a Black Stone that drinks the light like the trees to, in contrast to the weirwoods, which glow a milk white like the Black Gate. 

I suspect that Dragon Steel is made with these trees for the Carbon to add to Iron to make magical steel. Dawn being of weirwoods, and westeros. While Valyrian steel is black and made of the Trees of the East.

We think very much alike. I think, however that weirwood- which turns to stone over time- is balanced by Oily Black Stone- which turns weirwood to Shade of the Evening. I'm with you in principle on swords, as well- I think Valyrian Steel is steel and Oily Black Stone bound together with human (probably Dragonrider) blood and fused with dragonflame. Dawn might be weirwood seedcasing? I think the weirwoods may have arrived as seeds flung into space to come down as meteors. An intact piece of hull could have been used to make it although  using blood to work fossilized weirwood into steel would work as well. I don't think the Daynes had dragons, but then Dawn isn't that kind of sword. I wonder what fire made Dawn?

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, hiemal said:

OG.

Makes sense. The CotF do seem to be associated with caves and hollow hills as well as the weirwoods.

We think very much alike. I think, however that weirwood- which turns to stone over time- is balanced by Oily Black Stone- which turns weirwood to Shade of the Evening. I'm with you in principle on swords, as well- I think Valyrian Steel is steel and Oily Black Stone bound together with human (probably Dragonrider) blood and fused with dragonflame. Dawn might be weirwood seedcasing? I think the weirwoods may have arrived as seeds flung into space to come down as meteors. An intact piece of hull could have been used to make it although  using blood to work fossilized weirwood into steel would work as well. I don't think the Daynes had dragons, but then Dawn isn't that kind of sword. I wonder what fire made Dawn?

And that's the fun, when your close to agreeing, buttttt, let's discuss this hahahaa  

The Oily Black stone and it's origin is a biggg mystery. 

One though i do not attribute to an asteroid though, not enough to make a city as big as Asshai and Yeen IMO. Enough to make a sword though, that's for sure.

But, the idea of a sea race and submersion/corruption is one i toy with on the tree's and how they may be a corrupted form of the white ones. 

Take Asshai, was it built above water, or could it have been meant to be submerged, or at least half submerged. Kinda like how the Grey king wed a mermaid so his children could take to land or sea? 

The Grey King who's legend is about the stolen fire and who i link to Azor Ahai, either as him or his father. Azor Ahai, either way, who i think is a child of Water and Earth and who corrupted it to Fire and Ice?

[Rufus Snow]

12 hours ago, hiemal said:

The name "Left-Hand Lucas" seems significant, as well- what might the Ironborn consider sinister?

I probably shouldn't suggest this, but if you fancy a nice rabbithole to plunge into maybe you could take a look at 1) Norse god Tyr; 2) the Welsh Lludd LLaw Eraint; and 3) the Irish Nuada Airgetlám

[Leo of House Cartel]

15 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well I believe we are given a clue about this in the Crannnogmen's ancient oath of fealty to Winterfell:

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

 

I think what we have here is a revelation of the three different categories of "powers" in the history of the world, as well as the order in which they arrived. I think that Earth and Water represents natural magic, which is the oldest magic in the world, and predates humanity. This is the magic of the Elder races. The Children of the Forest represent Earth (Those Who Sing the Song of the Earth). And I think the Deep Ones were the original representatives of Water. Maybe the Rhoynar learnt some remnants of that Water magic in later years.

 

In my mind I have an era going back to a million years ago, or some such massive time period during which these powers held sway over the world.

 

Then the age of humanity arrived. And humans brought with them not magic, but the power of technology. Bronze at first, but much later, also iron. This represents the "Bronze and Iron" part of the oath. This I date back maybe 20,000 to 30,000 years or so, with primitive tribes emerging from the Stone Age to spread across the world, fearfully at first, at the mercy of these wiser, elder races, but with numbers, high birth rates and ingenuity on their side.

 

Then, maybe 8,000 to 12,000 years ago or thereabouts Fire and Ice arrived in the world. I see these as alien powers that are not of this world but were unleashed due to some misuse of magic or maybe the arrival of alien races from beyond this world. This is symbolized by the second moon that exploded in the sky, birthing dragons in the ancient legends. The point being that humans were already around and able to witness and record this event for future generations. This was the time of the ancient race that built Ashaii, and the weird events that led to the Long Night.

 

Thousands of years later the primitive Valyrians would harness a remnant of this Fire magic to tame the remaining dragons in the Fourteen Flames and birth their Empire.

 

Anyway, what it all comes back to, are the three categories of magic in the ancient oath of the Crannogmen, which at its simplest I will categorize as Natural magic, Technology, and Unnatural magic. And we all know which of those three categories the Maesters are trying to advance to supplant and eradicate the others completely.

 

Man, that's a great catch with the Reeds "elemental oaths, what power may lie in those words? I wonder if Howland Reed's time at the God's Eye revealed some major truths about these magical forces to the Lord of Greywater Watch. 

Categorising these elemental factors into Natural, Technological and Unnatural seems pretty wise too. Coupled with your proposed order of events and I certainly feel like your on to something Ser!

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Curled Finger Note how Craster, the Crannogs and Codds have several similarities

• Each represent an element -ice, water and earth
• They all live in difficult to navigate terrain.
• They each have some connection to humanoid species - Others, Singers and perhaps Squishers
• They all specialise in either trapping or kidnapping
• All are feared or mistrusted by their neighbours.
• We also have a culture of rape and forced pregnancies with Craster and the Codds.

While I can't think of a fire based character with these exact traits, the culture of slavery seen in old Valyria and present day Red Temples does fit somewhat. 

CF, I'd most enjoy hearing your thoughts on this mysterious Silver Sea - where might we put this location on a historical timeline? I wonder what significance these now dwindling lakes might have had on magic or human migration in the area.

@hiemal Well, the women of the house are said to lay with their brothers and fathers, I wonder if there is some truth to this - perhaps the Codds low social standing does indeed mean they do indeed resort to incest, there's probably a good chance the male figureheads of the house have a more Craster style of parenting, if their familial reputation is anything to go by. 

Perhaps this "keeping the blood pure" is even down to some genetic hangover from the days of the Deep Ones.

As to Lucas, if we look at the left hand side of a map of Westeros then we see the great unknown of the Sunset Sea. The East is often rumoured to have been home to either the Deep Ones or FM who found the Seastone chair so I wonder if Lucas "Left Hand" Codd's name could serve as another hint towards these creatures from the waves.

Reading Feast back, one can clearly see how Lucas is high on Euron's chain of command- it is Lucas who takes dragonbinder from the wounded Cragorn, and the Left Hand voices his opinion more often than any of Greyjoys other dogs.

I suppose Dagon Codd would have ventured through a "black mire" of his own during his encounters with the bog devils, be it the swampy terrain leading up to Moat Cailin or the shit seeping out of his poisoned Iron Men...

Funny to think that the Iron King's right hand man is some due named "Left hand Lucas".

 

 

 

[Lady Dacey]

 

Quote

 

EH_Dave	Let's talk about the idea of myths and legends. It seems that in a way these books are about events becoming mythical, the stuff of songs. Is that by design or did it just work that way?
George_RR_Martin	Well, my work has always explored the tension between romance and reality — between the legend and the fact that underlies the legend. That theme is there even in my earliest short stories.
EH_Dave	Much of the action seems to occur offstage, and get related to the reader by another character, who may or may not be lying of exaggerating

 

From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1428/

Isn't that amazing? It's unclear and it probably won't be clarified by the end of the series... I personally really like that. It's a much more credible world if we can't be sure than it would be if we knew the complete chronology of their evolution... I mean, in the real world we haven't even figured out the complete human evolution from Austalipitecus afarensis to Homo sapiens yet. It's a part of the human condition, to try and make sense of our past long gone, our origins. And they are yet unclear. It would not be fun to be presented with a world where it's all been figured out.