Who Really Came 1st?

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I probably shouldn't suggest this, but if you fancy a nice rabbithole to plunge into maybe you could take a look at 1) Norse god Tyr; 2) the Welsh Lludd LLaw Eraint; and 3) the Irish Nuada Airgetlám

I always do.I've darted down there before the one labeled Nuada before, chasing the Lebor Gabala Eire to wonder if Euron is going to kill Jaimie before being taken down by an arrow from either Sarella or Samwell. Tyr obviously deserves a second look (har) as I've been caught in the Odin/BR thing and LLudd is new to me (mission accepted!). I'd love to your thoughts on Nuada.

Just finished a brief survey of LLudd. How did I forget about him? Kudos!

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Curled Finger Note how Craster, the Crannogs and Codds have several similarities

• Each represent an element -ice, water and earth
• They all live in difficult to navigate terrain.
• They each have some connection to humanoid species - Others, Singers and perhaps Squishers
• They all specialise in either trapping or kidnapping
• All are feared or mistrusted by their neighbours.
• We also have a culture of rape and forced pregnancies with Craster and the Codds.

While I can't think of a fire based character with these exact traits, the culture of slavery seen in old Valyria and present day Red Temples does fit somewhat. 

CF, I'd most enjoy hearing your thoughts on this mysterious Silver Sea - where might we put this location on a historical timeline? I wonder what significance these now dwindling lakes might have had on magic or human migration in the area.

@hiemal Well, the women of the house are said to lay with their brothers and fathers, I wonder if there is some truth to this - perhaps the Codds low social standing does indeed mean they do indeed resort to incest, there's probably a good chance the male figureheads of the house have a more Craster style of parenting, if their familial reputation is anything to go by. 

Perhaps this "keeping the blood pure" is even down to some genetic hangover from the days of the Deep Ones.

Or impure, as the case may be! I wonder to what extant taking salt wives is an attempt to expand the Deep Ones breeding program and bring in "normal" traits.

5 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

As to Lucas, if we look at the left hand side of a map of Westeros then we see the great unknown of the Sunset Sea. The East is often rumoured to have been home to either the Deep Ones or FM who found the Seastone chair so I wonder if Lucas "Left Hand" Codd's name could serve as another hint towards these creatures from the waves.

Reading Feast back, one can clearly see how Lucas is high on Euron's chain of command- it is Lucas who takes dragonbinder from the wounded Cragorn, and the Left Hand voices his opinion more often than any of Greyjoys other dogs.

I suppose Dagon Codd would have ventured through a "black mire" of his own during his encounters with the bog devils, be it the swampy terrain leading up to Moat Cailin or the shit seeping out of his poisoned Iron Men...

Funny to think that the Iron King's right hand man is some due named "Left hand Lucas".

Good stuff! Thinking on the Codds and their realationship with nets ATM.

[hiemal]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And that's the fun, when your close to agreeing, buttttt, let's discuss this hahahaa

Right!?

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

The Oily Black stone and it's origin is a biggg mystery. 

One though i do not attribute to an asteroid though, not enough to make a city as big as Asshai and Yeen IMO. Enough to make a sword though, that's for sure.

Great point- and one that isn't made often enough. You solution actually makes a lot of sense- if the trees are the alien influence perhaps they transform normal rock into OBS either through fossilization like weirwood (although that make the huge blocks like those found in yeen and Asshai difficult) or through some other process (using roots, maybe?). Stones could maybe do the same thing, though? Spread their malign alien influence like a mineral virus? I could see it going either way, but favor shade of the evening as corrupted weirwood because of the amount of OBS vs shade of the evening compared with weirwood (used mostly in chairs and for building apparently but also a few doors and at least one bow) and weirwood trees.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Take Asshai, was it built above water, or could it have been meant to be submerged, or at least half submerged. Kinda like how the Grey king wed a mermaid so his children could take to land or sea? 

 

Interesting idea. Asshai is a metropolitan mystery. It could be Deep One, but I kind of have K'Dath pegged as their city of origin and Asshai as Great Empire of the Dawn hometurf (with Stygai as ground zero for the Lightbringer incident).

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Grey King who's legend is about the stolen fire and who i link to Azor Ahai, either as him or his father. Azor Ahai, either way, who i think is a child of Water and Earth and who corrupted it to Fire and Ice?

He very may be- or even his son, a failed Azor Ahai like his half-brother the Warg King. Lots of tinfoil there. I'm currently putting my money on him being the AA from the cycle before this one, but tinfoil is always changing.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Thank you and that's how we all take it in and learn  

Owen Oakenshield i think is further hint that Garth's family we're giants. I still wonder at what point these giants went away. Look at some of the descriptions of Harrenhal, especially from Arya. Hard to tell if this is just an exaggeration by a tiny Arya or a legit comparison. Based of descriptions, it does sound mighty big for such a small group of Iron born. How frickin big could Harren's army have been? Idk, i still need to do a detailed search on Giants, but a quick search brought up sooooo many references, idk where to begin haha and thank you again  

The story is Garth mated with a giantess to produce Owen.  Why would Garth be a giant?  Is it me or does it appear that the giants side up with the COTF during the migrational wars with the 1st Men?  10,000 years later the giants side up with the Wildlings.  Oddly I did do a search on giants.   I was trying to find capitalization anywhere.   Unless giants was the 1st word in a sentence it is not capitalized.   Osha mentions her brother killed a little giant, only 10 feet tall.  She also tells us that a human woman cannot bear a giant child due to the size of both the male giant (who would rip a maid apart) and the giant child.  Wun Wun is a vegetarian who can't really hold his liquor and can be taught the Common Tongue.  The giants are pretty fascinating and are no doubt worth a topic dedicated to them.    The quote I find most telling is when Leaf tells Bran that "the giants were our bane and brothers".   In this the races are definitively separate, experiencing strife.  The use of "brothers" tells me they were occasionally united, possibly in a protective or defensive role.  We know there are giants north of the Wall.   There are giants' bones in Bloodraven's cave, where Singers are entombed in trees, not yet entirely absorbed.   Is Hodor the giant in Bran's tale or is it possible the COTF no longer have a relationship with the giants?

[Faera]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:51 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I completely agree but it's basically the same issue w/ the rest of the "scientific" aspects of the story. Ultimately, if Martin wants for different species to interbreed and have viable and fertile offspring, that's what we're going to get, regardless of it being incorrect in terms of real world science.

 

I agree in principle. I think what I’ trying to get at that as a sci-if writer the ability of species to breed with each other might have crossed GRRM’s mind more than it would other fantasy writers when he introduced the idea of humans, giants, others and singers breeding and creating hybrids. I don’t know for certain but it crossed my mind because it felt inkeeping with the notion of kinslaying being the worst crime one can commit that all the sentient species are literally “kin”.

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The story is Garth mated with a giantess to produce Owen.  Why would Garth be a giant?  Is it me or does it appear that the giants side up with the COTF during the migrational wars with the 1st Men?  10,000 years later the giants side up with the Wildlings.  Oddly I did do a search on giants.   I was trying to find capitalization anywhere.   Unless giants was the 1st word in a sentence it is not capitalized.   Osha mentions her brother killed a little giant, only 10 feet tall.  She also tells us that a human woman cannot bear a giant child due to the size of both the male giant (who would rip a maid apart) and the giant child.  Wun Wun is a vegetarian who can't really hold his liquor and can be taught the Common Tongue.  The giants are pretty fascinating and are no doubt worth a topic dedicated to them.    The quote I find most telling is when Leaf tells Bran that "the giants were our bane and brothers".   In this the races are definitively separate, experiencing strife.  The use of "brothers" tells me they were occasionally united, possibly in a protective or defensive role.  We know there are giants north of the Wall.   There are giants' bones in Bloodraven's cave, where Singers are entombed in trees, not yet entirely absorbed.   Is Hodor the giant in Bran's tale or is it possible the COTF no longer have a relationship with the giants?

I love the giants!

I wonder about the giants and the CotF too because we KNOW giants have currently made a common cause with Man. They are the ones working together to escape the Others and we know of at least one already at the Wall colluding with Jon Snow’s new Night’s Watch policy. Jon even made sure there was a vegetarian option on the menu for Wun Wun. Either way, it is clear that all three races have come together when needed.

What I really wonder is why aren’t the CotF actively working with the humans and giants to, at the very least, secure the Wall. I mean, they haven’t even really confirmed to Bran-Meera-Jojen that this is even a goal of theirs, yet.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Because there is nothing like self gained or researched knowledge. Difference between wisdom and knowledge according to Socrates 

Edit- meaning, if you like her idea, research it  more, explore it more, it may lead to more  this is the fun of it all IMO

I've been watching a handful of posters forever it seems.  kissdbyfire is one of them.  Her talent, to me personally, is her ability to plainly explain her position.  Some of these concepts are difficult for me to understand.  Sometimes I just like her to elaborate because she does it so well. It's a rare talent.   I don't have a lot of topics in relation to the amount of time I've been hanging out here.   I got bold over in your Bloodraven/3EC topic and flat out asked another poster I trust about a thing I didn't understand.   She was very kind in giving me a prompt and clear explanation.   Topics and posting are part of my research.   This discussion here is the result of probably 2 week's worth of discussions with a dear friend who doesn't post.   Over in your topic I am learning something new and shiny.   So, you're absolutely right, my new friend.  Research is the fun of it all!  

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Faera said:

I agree in principle. I think what I’ trying to get at that as a sci-if writer the ability of species to breed with each other might have crossed GRRM’s mind more than it would other fantasy writers when he introduced the idea of humans, giants, others and singers breeding and creating hybrids. I don’t know for certain but it crossed my mind because it felt inkeeping with the notion of kinslaying being the worst crime one can commit that all the sentient species are literally “kin”.

I love the giants!

I wonder about the giants and the CotF too because we KNOW giants have currently made a common cause with Man. They are the ones working together to escape the Others and we know of at least one already at the Wall colluding with Jon Snow’s new Night’s Watch policy. Jon even made sure there was a vegetarian option on the menu for Wun Wun. Either way, it is clear that all three races have come together when needed.

What I really wonder is why aren’t the CotF actively working with the humans and giants to, at the very least, secure the Wall. I mean, they haven’t even really confirmed to Bran-Meera-Jojen that this is even a goal of theirs, yet.

It's good to have you back, Faera!   Another well explained concept.  I am curious as to what you think about Hodor, Brienne and the other human "giants" we have in the present story.   Is it possible that there really are only 100 or so real giants left and these smaller tall humans (they're big and strong, too) are in place to perhaps take the place of the real giants?  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Right!?

Great point- and one that isn't made often enough. You solution actually makes a lot of sense- if the trees are the alien influence perhaps they transform normal rock into OBS either through fossilization like weirwood (although that make the huge blocks like those found in yeen and Asshai difficult) or through some other process (using roots, maybe?). Stones could maybe do the same thing, though? Spread their malign alien influence like a mineral virus? I could see it going either way, but favor shade of the evening as corrupted weirwood because of the amount of OBS vs shade of the evening compared with weirwood (used mostly in chairs and for building apparently but also a few doors and at least one bow) and weirwood trees.

Ooooh Ooh, I want to jump in here!   I'm reading everything.   Gads if I had half the imagination...We are speaking of asteroids and trees turning to rock and that oily black stone that seems to have been shaped by someone or thing.   A lot of times when this is discussed we miss the legend or fact of Starfall.   Daynes claim they really can trace their roots back 10,000 years.  The original Dayne allegedly followed a falling star to the place it crashed.  We are told that Dawn and the castle Starfall were made from this fallen star.   The castle is supposed to be white and we all know how Dawn, presumed to be made from the heart of this extraterrestrial matter, appears and behaves.   It's not a stretch to assume this matter is alive itself.   Hard to keep a castle in the middle of the desert mountains white for 10,000 years.   

If this rock is alive after a fashion, is it so difficult to assign some sort of life to our oily black stone that is shaped (like Starfall) and maintains it's color (black) forever?   Curious and curiouser...

Is there any mention of this oily black stone in Valyria?  Yep, Curled Finger has a sword thought here. 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It's good to have you back, Faera!   Another well explained concept.

1

Aww, nice to be back. It can be hard jumping back into a topic once it really explodes and you have to try and catch up with everyone. 

Quote

I am curious as to what you think about Hodor, Brienne and the other human "giants" we have in the present story.   Is it possible that there really are only 100 or so real giants left and these smaller tall humans (they're big and strong, too) are in place to perhaps take the place of the real giants?

 

To answer your question, I don't think it is necessarily about that. Depending on which way you look at it, the possibility that these naturally "giant" humans - still far smaller than any real giants who are at least 10ft - who are way over 6ft (Brienne) over 7ft (The Umbers, Hodor, possibly the Hound) and bordering on 8ft (or over, in the case of the Mountain) have the blood of giants shows that co-operation and co-habitation between the races occurred in the far distant past. Thus, it could happen again. I don't see "tall humans" as taking the place of the real giants though because giants are more than just their DNA that they could pass into the human gene pool -- they are a culture.

It is why The Last of the Giants (Link to my favourite cover BTW) is so heartbreaking. You get the feeling it isn't just the humans who have taken land from the giants but very possibly the CotF as well. As both the humans and CotF are more "advanced" in their societies (humans are more inventive while CotF use magic), the Giants probably have been easy targets for both of them. The fact that the song 'Last of the Giants' is a freefolk song, though, gives hope that the words of the song will carry forward with the humans as they are - as I said - co-existing and co-operating.

I would be curious to know whether there are any taller than average (or even supremely hairy!) freefolk that indicate that co-operation between giants and humans is still going on.

It is very different to the Children of the Forest because their culture has been carried on and survived in many respects. The Old Gods of the Forest is a religion that humans adopted as part of the Pact and weirwood trees are still a coveted must-have in any godswood, even in households that follow the new religion. Then you have the Crannogmen who seem more aware of the actual culture of both the First Men and the Children of the Forest. We don't really have that with the giants. It's what makes it so sad.

(Admittedly, a part of me wonders if the surviving CotF are really as benevolent as they appear...)

[Curled Finger]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:19 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Interesting - I've missed that to date. Do you have a reference or should I just add it to the list of things to look out for in my re-read 'agenda'?

Of course!  And a tip from someone with no short term memory:  Use the search of ice and fire!   I have pages upon pages of copy & pasted text with my notes right there with them.   It's a handy way to bone up on things.   My last great search was the word giants.   Have a blast, Man!   

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Faera said:

Aww, nice to be back. It can be hard jumping back into a topic once it really explodes and you have to try and catch up with everyone. 

To answer your question, I don't think it is necessarily about that. Depending on which way you look at it, the possibility that these naturally "giant" humans - still far smaller than any real giants who are at least 10ft - who are way over 6ft (Brienne) over 7ft (The Umbers, Hodor, possibly the Hound) and bordering on 8ft (or over, in the case of the Mountain) have the blood of giants shows that co-operation and co-habitation between the races occurred in the far distant past. Thus, it could happen again. I don't see "tall humans" as taking the place of the real giants though because giants are more than just their DNA that they could pass into the human gene pool -- they are a culture.

It is why The Last of the Giants (Link to my favourite cover BTW) is so heartbreaking. You get the feeling it isn't just the humans who have taken land from the giants but very possibly the CotF as well. As both the humans and CotF are more "advanced" in their societies (humans are more inventive while CotF use magic), the Giants probably have been easy targets for both of them. The fact that the song 'Last of the Giants' is a freefolk song, though, gives hope that the words of the song will carry forward with the humans as they are - as I said - co-existing and co-operating.

I would be curious to know whether there are any taller than average (or even supremely hairy!) freefolk that indicate that co-operation between giants and humans is still going on.

It is very different to the Children of the Forest because their culture has been carried on and survived in many respects. The Old Gods of the Forest is a religion that humans adopted as part of the Pact and weirwood trees are still a coveted must-have in any godswood, even in households that follow the new religion. Then you have the Crannogmen who seem more aware of the actual culture of both the First Men and the Children of the Forest. We don't really have that with the giants. It's what makes it so sad.

(Admittedly, a part of me wonders if the surviving CotF are really as benevolent as they appear...)

How about the Hairy Bear & The Maiden Fair?  Might be a good place to start looking for those hairy humans?  

[LordBlakeney]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

Interesting idea. Asshai is a metropolitan mystery. It could be Deep One, but I kind of have K'Dath pegged as their city of origin and Asshai as Great Empire of the Dawn hometurf (with Stygai as ground zero for the Lightbringer incident).

I'm familiar with the Lightbringer story and have read a lot of theories - I've seen you mention "Lightbringer incident" a couple of times without expounding. Would be very interested in how you are connecting Lightbringer and Stygai, and how you are thinking this impacts the ancient narrative and current story. The more tinfoil the better.

[Faera]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How about the Hairy Bear & The Maiden Fair?  Might be a good place to start looking for those hairy humans?  

I was thinking the same thing. The idea of a large, hairy bear-like creature not feeling like he can go to the fair because "he's a bear... covered in hair".  A hybrid probably would have a better chance of wandering into town than a real male giant. If the bear in The Bear and the Maiden Fair was a hybrid he must have been a male-human/female-giant hybrid, since Osha explained why that was, ahem, the only way to really do it:

Quote

"Maester Luwin says there are no more giants. He says they're all dead, like the children of the forest. All that's left of them are old bones in the earth that men turn up with plows from time to time."
"Let Maester Luwin ride beyond the Wall," Osha said. "He'll find giants then, or they'll find him. My brother killed one. Ten foot tall she was, and stunted at that. They've been known to grow big as twelve and thirteen feet. Fierce things they are too, all hair and teeth, and the wives have beards like their husbands, so there's no telling them apart. The women take human men for lovers, and it's from them the half bloods come. It goes harder on the women they catch. The men are so big they'll rip a maid apart before they get her with child." She grinned at him. "But you don't know what I mean, do you, boy?"
"Yes I do," Bran insisted. - A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

6

Before the Wall went up, there probably were more opportunities for the female giants to kidnap male humans (maybe a few go willingly) and make babies, since their relations were fraught. However, given that Osha describes clearly how the giants' blood got into the human population, it might suggest that it still goes on. Might even be her brother had to kill the giantess to avoid being forced into copulation with her.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Faera said:

I was thinking the same thing. The idea of a large, hairy bear-like creature not feeling like he can go to the fair because "he's a bear... covered in hair".  A hybrid probably would have a better chance of wandering into town than a real male giant. If the bear in The Bear and the Maiden Fair was a hybrid he must have been a male-human/female-giant hybrid, since Osha explained why that was, ahem, the only way to really do it:

Before the Wall went up, there probably were more opportunities for the female giants to kidnap male humans (maybe a few go willingly) and make babies, since their relations were fraught. However, given that Osha describes clearly how the giants' blood got into the human population, it might suggest that it still goes on. Might even be her brother had to kill the giantess to avoid being forced into copulation with her.

Just leads me right back to Tormund, maybe even the Mormonts with their Bear baby daddies.  They don't seem to think it's so bad...(heeheehee)

[Faera]

54 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Just leads me right back to Tormund, maybe even the Mormonts with their Bear baby daddies.  They don't seem to think it's so bad...(heeheehee)

I know Jorah isn't particularly tall but maybe the Mormont men have some of the giants' hairiness?

[Rufus Snow]

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

I always do.I've darted down there before the one labeled Nuada before, chasing the Lebor Gabala Eire to wonder if Euron is going to kill Jaimie before being taken down by an arrow from either Sarella or Samwell. Tyr obviously deserves a second look (har) as I've been caught in the Odin/BR thing and LLudd is new to me (mission accepted!). I'd love to your thoughts on Nuada.

Just finished a brief survey of LLudd. How did I forget about him? Kudos!

Pity the working week has now begun, I have little time for posting for a while... but Left Hand Lucas Codd instantly brought to mind the various mythological figures who were 'left hands' by virtue of losing their right hands in various ways -- why on earth I didn't make the leap to JAIME with his golden hand, I do not know, but I now have tonight's theme of speculation to keep my mind active as I labour...

The Cliff Notes of Nuada: king of the Tuatha De Danaan before they came to Ireland; lost his arm battling the Fir Bolg, but the Fir Bolg king Eochaid is slain by the Morrigu (crow of battle). And a man short a limb cannot be king, ergo a silver prosthethis made him whole to rule again. (Important is that the Fir Bolg were the 4th of 6 migrations into (legendary) Ireland and a good cognate for 1st Men, whilst the earlier three make good 'elder races')

Cliff Notes of Tyr: kept a giant wolf Fenrir (who grew and grew til the Gods bound him), bit off Tyr's hand. Fenrir is prophecied to survive Ragnarok and eat everyone...

Cliff Notes of Lludd: reign marked by 4 plagues, one of which was dragons - a red and a white (Saxons and Britons), and one tributary into the great river that is Arthurian Legend

Lots of themes here picked up by GRRM, and we know he likes to plunder myths and history for ideas - though he does transform them considerably, but these three Left Handers are replete with imagery potent in the SoIaF.

However, I have jumped down the rabbithole with anry a torch to light my way, and it's dark in here. But I also hear echoes of Bran the Blessed, and this has surely not escaped GRRM:

Quote

Brân the Blessed (Welsh: Bendigeidfran or Brân Fendigaidd, literally "Blessed Crow") is a giant and king of Britain in Welsh mythology. [.......] the brother of Brânwen, Manawydan, Nisien and Efnysien. The name "Brân" in Welsh is usually translated as crow or raven.

(Sorry Sandman, but this is why I don't buy your Bran 'Beacon Hill' theory.)

I think this is why I love these books so much, they really dig into the the deep psyche of Britain.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ooooh Ooh, I want to jump in here!   I'm reading everything.   Gads if I had half the imagination...We are speaking of asteroids and trees turning to rock and that oily black stone that seems to have been shaped by someone or thing.   A lot of times when this is discussed we miss the legend or fact of Starfall.   Daynes claim they really can trace their roots back 10,000 years.  The original Dayne allegedly followed a falling star to the place it crashed.  We are told that Dawn and the castle Starfall were made from this fallen star.   The castle is supposed to be white and we all know how Dawn, presumed to be made from the heart of this extraterrestrial matter, appears and behaves.   It's not a stretch to assume this matter is alive itself.   Hard to keep a castle in the middle of the desert mountains white for 10,000 years.   

If this rock is alive after a fashion, is it so difficult to assign some sort of life to our oily black stone that is shaped (like Starfall) and maintains it's color (black) forever?   Curious and curiouser...

That would make sense as well- perhaps both the White and the Black arrived as stones with the power to alter local life to more closely resemble that of its home world; instead of arriving as literal seedships that sprout when they land they are extra-dimensional or extra-planetary ships that can seed worlds with their essence (magic). I had a thread a while ago but I don't think I had that idea in there. I might need to amend

and I have.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is there any mention of this oily black stone in Valyria?  Yep, Curled Finger has a sword thought here. 

It was either there or they brought it from elsewhere, like BSE's black stone, his Magna Mater Stygai. I think the obsidian that almost certainly was found in Valyria serves the same role in the Firenet that OBS does in the Deepnet. It is possible that either both obsidian (fire) and OBS (mutation) are used in VS or that only obsidian is necessary. Regardless I'm sure that fire and blood to required to bind it all together and provide a unified matrix of matter and energy to hold the souls that power magic. I wish we knew exactly what the magic is! Is it just to make swords lighter and stronger or is there more going on here? I think there is and that binding Fire into the blade may be what makes them effective against Others but their habit of drinking light speaks of OBS.

Thoughts on exactly what kind of magic is found in these swords- not just in their creation but in their essence?

[hiemal]

9 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Pity the working week has now begun, I have little time for posting for a while... but Left Hand Lucas Codd instantly brought to mind the various mythological figures who were 'left hands' by virtue of losing their right hands in various ways -- why on earth I didn't make the leap to JAIME with his golden hand, I do not know, but I now have tonight's theme of speculation to keep my mind active as I labour...

The Cliff Notes of Nuada: king of the Tuatha De Danaan before they came to Ireland; lost his arm battling the Fir Bolg, but the Fir Bolg king Eochaid is slain by the Morrigu (crow of battle). And a man short a limb cannot be king, ergo a silver prosthethis made him whole to rule again. (Important is that the Fir Bolg were the 4th of 6 migrations into (legendary) Ireland and a good cognate for 1st Men, whilst the earlier three make good 'elder races')

This is my biggie- combined with my identification of the Deep Ones with the Foymor and Euron with Balon (the name is only a brother away after all!). Jaime replaces the Danaan's lunar silver with solar gold but he has given away his sword and seems unlikely to wield Stannis' psuedo-Lightbringer but I wouldn't be surprised to see one or another fall into his good hand before he falls to Euron.

13 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Cliff Notes of Tyr: kept a giant wolf Fenrir (who grew and grew til the Gods bound him), bit off Tyr's hand. Fenrir is prophecied to survive Ragnarok and eat everyone...

 

I'm on the fence with this one- there is so much nordic symbolism going on with the weirwoods and the CotF as ratatoskrs and BR as Odin hanging for runes as I said earlier and Nan's story of the world coming a giant's eye, and Bran the Blessed, etc but the ragnarok theme is interesting and worth exploring.

16 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

.

Cliff Notes of Lludd: reign marked by 4 plagues, one of which was dragons - a red and a white (Saxons and Britons), and one tributary into the great river that is Arthurian Legend

 

I need to find my copy of the mabinogian. The Arthurian subtext (inverted mostly) is something I've explored in many different threads- often focused on Lightbringer as an Unholy Grail (Dawn is the Grail itself probably)- and then often meandering into alchemy and Philosopher's Stones and Lapis Exillis- and on Florian the Fool as Percival.

20 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Lots of themes here picked up by GRRM, and we know he likes to plunder myths and history for ideas - though he does transform them considerably, but these three Left Handers are replete with imagery potent in the SoIaF.

However, I have jumped down the rabbithole with anry a torch to light my way, and it's dark in here. But I also hear echoes of Bran the Blessed, and this has surely not escaped GRRM:

 

I think this is why I love these books so much, they really dig into the the deep psyche of Britain.

I think its GRRMs greatest strength- taking symbols and legends and reinventing them by tangling them up in disparate themes and with myriad stories. He goes deep and then he turns it around and shows it to you in a new way?

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Faera said:

I agree in principle. I think what I’ trying to get at that as a sci-if writer the ability of species to breed with each other might have crossed GRRM’s mind more than it would other fantasy writers when he introduced the idea of humans, giants, others and singers breeding and creating hybrids. I don’t know for certain but it crossed my mind because it felt inkeeping with the notion of kinslaying being the worst crime one can commit that all the sentient species are literally “kin”.

I totally agree that Martin may be more knowledgable in the scientific stuff than other fantasy writers. Still, what I was trying to get at is that if, for plot reasons, he needs/wants Westeros' science to be different, it will be different.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

I'm familiar with the Lightbringer story and have read a lot of theories - I've seen you mention "Lightbringer incident" a couple of times without expounding. Would be very interested in how you are connecting Lightbringer and Stygai, and how you are thinking this impacts the ancient narrative and current story. The more tinfoil the better.

Lightbringer Incident is a big ball of tinfoil so I think that truth behind the stories of Lightbringer and the Long Night might be something like:

(this is a VERY tinfoily theory going full bore to specific details that I am not at all confident about but I'm throwing in for grins. I have many different versions but this is my fave)

The Opal Emperor had twins- the oldest was a girl named Valerys and the younger was a boy named Rhaellor. Valerys was destined to assume the throne and became in time the Amethyst Empress but Rhaellor went into the world traveling- either to expand his mind and experience like Oberyn (presumably) or in exile (like Euron). Regardless, while travelling he found secret and forbidden knowledge from both the CotF and from the Deep Ones. He returned to capital of Asshai with his ambitions and his wicked knowledge and married his sister in order to complete his schemes. At Stygai, the Dawn Empire's version of Summerhall (Winterhall?) his sister died in childbirth and the Lightbringer Incident happened.

Rhaellor's first goal was godhood- and he was partially successful, becoming R'hlorr, the inhabiting intelligence of the Firenet (an adaptation of the weirnet). His son is the first dragonrider, Azor Ahai. Valerys is transformed by magical backlash into Night's Queen- mother of Undeath. The Long Night begins as nature recoils at the massive use of magic to violate its order. Somehow the Last Hero managed to bring the Dawn.