Who Really Came 1st?

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

Great point- and one that isn't made often enough. You solution actually makes a lot of sense- if the trees are the alien influence perhaps they transform normal rock into OBS either through fossilization like weirwood (although that make the huge blocks like those found in yeen and Asshai difficult) or through some other process (using roots, maybe?). Stones could maybe do the same thing, though? Spread their malign alien influence like a mineral virus? I could see it going either way, but favor shade of the evening as corrupted weirwood because of the amount of OBS vs shade of the evening compared with weirwood (used mostly in chairs and for building apparently but also a few doors and at least one bow) and weirwood trees.

Well as far as the big blacks used, we dont know how big the blocks were, but some of those Weirwoods are described as pretty wide. California redwoods are pretty wide. It may still be possible. I have considered that too. 

 

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

Interesting idea. Asshai is a metropolitan mystery. It could be Deep One, but I kind of have K'Dath pegged as their city of origin and Asshai as Great Empire of the Dawn hometurf (with Stygai as ground zero for the Lightbringer incident).

I wonder about this, but i also wonder about any of this actually happening in Essos or if it started in Westeros as pointed out by Kissdbyfire. The First Men do not appear to be magic wielders as we are told as much. So it may be that they leaned it all in Westeros. But did everything happen there, or in Essos later? Or both? I just can't decide just yet on this. I wanna say it started in Essos but the evidence can actually go the other way. Huzhor Amai/Azor Ahai is when the Empire of Westeros finally made it's way East and South?

 

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

He very may be- or even his son, a failed Azor Ahai like his half-brother the Warg King. Lots of tinfoil there. I'm currently putting my money on him being the AA from the cycle before this one, but tinfoil is always changing.

Im pretty set on it. I explain in Dissecting names that Brandon Stark can literally be translated as Brave one of the Beacon Hill- Or the Last Hero of the Hightower. 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The story is Garth mated with a giantess to produce Owen.  Why would Garth be a giant?  Is it me or does it appear that the giants side up with the COTF during the migrational wars with the 1st Men?  10,000 years later the giants side up with the Wildlings.  Oddly I did do a search on giants.   I was trying to find capitalization anywhere.   Unless giants was the 1st word in a sentence it is not capitalized.   Osha mentions her brother killed a little giant, only 10 feet tall.  She also tells us that a human woman cannot bear a giant child due to the size of both the male giant (who would rip a maid apart) and the giant child.  Wun Wun is a vegetarian who can't really hold his liquor and can be taught the Common Tongue.  The giants are pretty fascinating and are no doubt worth a topic dedicated to them.    The quote I find most telling is when Leaf tells Bran that "the giants were our bane and brothers".   In this the races are definitively separate, experiencing strife.  The use of "brothers" tells me they were occasionally united, possibly in a protective or defensive role.  We know there are giants north of the Wall.   There are giants' bones in Bloodraven's cave, where Singers are entombed in trees, not yet entirely absorbed.   Is Hodor the giant in Bran's tale or is it possible the COTF no longer have a relationship with the giants?

Because the Barrow of the First King is both said to be the grave of Garth the Green, the First King, and a Giant. Hinting that Garth the Green, was indeed a Giant him self. Of the vegetarian variety like Wun Wun.

Further more, i place Garth the Green as the God on Earth of the Empire of the Dawn dynasty. Garth the Gardener as his first born son the Pearl Emperor, and The Opal Emperor as Brandon of the Bloody Blade, father to Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, Brandon the Builder, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero and the Night's King. Uthor of the Hightower, Huzhor Amai of the Grass lands and son to the Fisher Queen. Hugor of the Hill. The "Hill" is either mother mountain which would have been an Island in the Silver Sea back then. Or It's the Great Barrow mentioned as a lonely hill. Take your pick. 

[hiemal]

47 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

I wonder about this, but i also wonder about any of this actually happening in Essos or if it started in Westeros as pointed out by Kissdbyfire. The First Men do not appear to be magic wielders as we are told as much.

I don't think any humans are naturally magic-users. First Men made blood pacts with sacrifices to the weirwoods and bought into that system- like the oldest moment that Bran has seen so far in his visions (I think) when his ancestors shed blood for the trees. The magic properties of Valyrian blood were, I believe, paid for in the same way during the Lightbringer Incident. Magic is always a violation of nature.

[hiemal]

55 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Im pretty set on it. I explain in Dissecting names that Brandon Stark can literally be translated as Brave one of the Beacon Hill- Or the Last Hero of the Hightower. 

I'm looking forward to it. For what it's worth, I've considered Brandon (or a variation thereof playing my own games of names) as the BSE's son's name. Or at least one of them. So again, I don't think we're too far off from one another ultimately.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, hiemal said:

I don't think any humans are naturally magic-users. First Men made blood pacts with sacrifices to the weirwoods and bought into that system- like the oldest moment that Bran has seen so far in his visions (I think) when his ancestors shed blood for the trees. The magic properties of Valyrian blood were, I believe, paid for in the same way during the Lightbringer Incident. Magic is always a violation of nature.

That vision still bothers me. Bran thinks he is seeing through the weirwood tree and may, yet he begins it by staring into the flames. Any who

And i agree, i just tend to think that it began with Garth some how. Then through him it filtered down into us some how. Garth seems to be a giant though, and idk who his parents would be. He is the God on Earth and the only mentioned parents to him are the Lion of Night and the Maiden Maid of Light. Which sounds like higher supreme gods or entities than say the seven. Though this may just be Rhllor and the Great Other, but that still begs the question as to who they are. 

This to doesn't answer where the COTF fit into this, other than they make them selves sound much older. 

We do not know where men came from though either. Was it the grass lands? The Gipps and such? These are already tribes, so not the OG peoples, who would be more primitive. Not making Iron or riding war chariots. So when and where did humans come in?

There is nothing just yet to prove that men are not equally as old as the COTF other than what the COTF say. 

Huzhor Amai, who may be Azor Ahai, and part of Garth's family of Empire of the Dawnites, and he did take to wife women from these three tribes he conquered, with his prexisting tribe of Tall Men. So we have mixing into humans at least right here. Though not still explaining human origins, just a mixing of species or subspecies. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I'm looking forward to it. For what it's worth, I've considered Brandon (or a variation thereof playing my own games of names) as the BSE's son's name. Or at least one of them. So again, I don't think we're too far off from one another ultimately.

Like most my stuff, i keep it brief haha im not one for typing up long explanations and am very meat and potatoes. 

[hiemal]

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That vision still bothers me. Bran thinks he is seeing through the weirwood tree and may, yet he begins it by staring into the flames. Any who

And i agree, i just tend to think that it began with Garth some how. Then through him it filtered down into us some how. Garth seems to be a giant though, and idk who his parents would be. He is the God on Earth and the only mentioned parents to him are the Lion of Night and the Maiden Maid of Light. Which sounds like higher supreme gods or entities than say the seven.

Ha! Once again we are off by a matter of generations- I also suspect that Garth was one of the Dawn Emperors, but that he is one of the gemstone emperors, who also correspond with the Seven, the Wanderers, and the Kingdoms. I don't think this is coincidence. I think they each visited Westeros at some point.

17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 He is the God on Earth and the only mentioned parents to him are the Lion of Night and the Maiden Maid of Light. Which sounds like higher supreme gods or entities than say the seven. Though this may just be Rhllor and the Great Other, but that still begs the question as to who they are. 
 

I think they might be the sun and the moon. Celestially, the Lightbringer Incident was an eclipse during the Lion of Night presented his dark face (the new moon), by overshadowing the Maiden-Made-of-Light and creating the fiery crown of usurpers shown in my forum picture.

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This to doesn't answer where the COTF fit into this, other than they make them selves sound much older. 

We do not know where men came from though either. Was it the grass lands? The Gipps and such? These are already tribes, so not the OG peoples, who would be more primitive. Not making Iron or riding war chariots. So when and where did humans come in?

 

I think they probably are as old as the CotF- just not on Westeros. One of the weirder aspects of this constructed history is the way different timelines and worlds seem to clash. We have dinosaurs and mammoths and cavemen (Lovecraftian Hairy Men of Ib and some of the more retrogressive Wildlings) and knights. I've considered the idea that each continent was once its own world, or part of one, and brought together artificially. Which species are native and which are alien? The Dawnites sound kind of alien to me, and I've tinfoiled that the pearl palanquin was some kind of lander. The Deep Ones seem very alien. There is an awful lot of human history at play here, so I'm inclined to peg humans as native, but with some temporal weirdness going on.

 

38 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Huzhor Amai, who may be Azor Ahai, and part of Garth's family of Empire of the Dawnites, and he did take to wife women from these three tribes he conquered, with his prexisting tribe of Tall Men. So we have mixing into humans at least right here. Though not still explaining human origins, just a mixing of species or subspecies. 

I'm on the fence on whether the Dawnites were human, superhuman (homo arcanus?), or alien.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

That would make sense as well- perhaps both the White and the Black arrived as stones with the power to alter local life to more closely resemble that of its home world; instead of arriving as literal seedships that sprout when they land they are extra-dimensional or extra-planetary ships that can seed worlds with their essence (magic). I had a thread a while ago but I don't think I had that idea in there. I might need to amend

and I have.

It was either there or they brought it from elsewhere, like BSE's black stone, his Magna Mater Stygai. I think the obsidian that almost certainly was found in Valyria serves the same role in the Firenet that OBS does in the Deepnet. It is possible that either both obsidian (fire) and OBS (mutation) are used in VS or that only obsidian is necessary. Regardless I'm sure that fire and blood to required to bind it all together and provide a unified matrix of matter and energy to hold the souls that power magic. I wish we knew exactly what the magic is! Is it just to make swords lighter and stronger or is there more going on here? I think there is and that binding Fire into the blade may be what makes them effective against Others but their habit of drinking light speaks of OBS.

Thoughts on exactly what kind of magic is found in these swords- not just in their creation but in their essence?

BSE=Bloodstone Emperor?  OBS=? (Oily Black Stone?) Baby steps with me Brother, you know i have a thick skull! 

I guarantee the rock wasn't already on Westeros.   If the Dayne legend is true, that rock called to him and had to be used.  Why wouldn't another "living" stone, black, grey or purple do the same thing?  Let's see what we already know about the dark grey to black Valyrian swords...distinct color and ripples, razor sharp and resilient.  They are said to "drink the sun" read light, from the color of dyes and darken in dragon flame (Aegon I's funeral pyre).  Valyrian Steel is said to have a memory and act of its own accord (Jon & Brienne).   Can you add anything? 

Dawn is said not to resemble VS in any way, being pale as milkglass while retaining the same properties of VS.  That's pretty much all we know about Dawn, but maybe the Daynes or even Starfall can tell us more?   The person who wields Dawn is the Sword of the Morning.   There was a Sword of the Evening.  Starfall is made of the same substance Dawn is, Dawn forged from the heart of a meteor or falling star.  This is called a "stone of magical powers".   There was a Dayne King named Samwell The Starfire.   Starfire is new.  Dawn may only be wielded by a knight considered worthy.  The pale color of Starfall and Dawn have not changed over the years.  Is that it?  

May I add to your DeepNet OBS? AWOIAF: The Iron Islands

And when battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

Then again I suppose foul black weapons that drink the souls of the slain could also be said to exhibit a bit of Valyrian Steel characteristic, but I'm still stuck on the Ironborn!  

What say ye? 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Because the Barrow of the First King is both said to be the grave of Garth the Green, the First King, and a Giant. Hinting that Garth the Green, was indeed a Giant him self. Of the vegetarian variety like Wun Wun.

Further more, i place Garth the Green as the God on Earth of the Empire of the Dawn dynasty. Garth the Gardener as his first born son the Pearl Emperor, and The Opal Emperor as Brandon of the Bloody Blade, father to Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, Brandon the Builder, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero and the Night's King. Uthor of the Hightower, Huzhor Amai of the Grass lands and son to the Fisher Queen. Hugor of the Hill. The "Hill" is either mother mountain which would have been an Island in the Silver Sea back then. Or It's the Great Barrow mentioned as a lonely hill. Take your pick. 

I have fun with your conclusions and think they need to stand for themselves.   I screwed up so badly in the OP and my reply to you.   It wasn't Owen Oakenshield born to Garth from a Giantess, it was Jon the Oak.   I'm so sorry.  I've got Owen on the brain.  

I understand where you are going.   Where do you think the very 1st humans in Westeros existed? 

[Jon Fossoway]

I always think about Innsmouth folk whenever a Codd comes around in the books.

[Curled Finger]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:58 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

I wonder how the Iron Born, or even the Deep Ones would view the tales of Rhoynar water wizards.

This could play into @Curled Finger's original line of questioning, as the Rhoynar, like the FM, would have had to either been able to use water magic since their beginnings, or something would have had to teach them such arts. Perhaps the Deep Ones and the Rhoynar share the similar relationship to how we view the FM and COTF.

In regards to the Iron Born, I find it interesting we have no accounts of some Greyjoy or Hoare summoning a water wall (which I always took as some kind of whirpool on land/aqua tornado).

I'm probably getting in over my head, so correct where needed.   The Deep Ones would be 1st creatures, right?  Not really around now, but sort of guardians of the Deep after making or fashioning their corrupt people, the Ironborn?  The Deep Ones are the Drowned God?    The Gray King?   I've been living in the history of the Ironborn.   I got nothing for water walls or what we are calling water magic.   What I do have is:

Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.    AWOIAF The Iron Islands

So we are dealing with skin, not armor.  What could make your skin so tough axes would shatter against it?   Greyscale, that's what. 

As I recall greyscale originated as a curse from Garin during the Rhoynish wars.  Kinda brings everything full circle in my mind.   Who was 1st--The Ironborn or the Rhoynish?  Does it fit at all, Leo?

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Curled Finger

CF, I'd most enjoy hearing your thoughts on this mysterious Silver Sea - where might we put this location on a historical timeline? I wonder what significance these now dwindling lakes might have had on magic or human migration in the area.

 

You have to imagine those Fisher Queens were ancient--got to be Dawn Age or Age of Heroes.  That last son made some real progress in uniting his people.   If the location is actually where I think it is, look at it--it's a near wasteland.  It doesn't even look like grass grows anywhere until you reach the forest of Qohor.  A landlocked sea would have made the area more fertile or at least forgiving if nothing else.   No wonder everyone split.   Hedge the bet:The Fisher Queens disappeared at the dawn of the Age of Heroes.   This son fits the hero bill.  

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

BSE=Bloodstone Emperor?  OBS=? (Oily Black Stone?)

Exactly!

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

BSE=Bloodstone Emperor?  OBS=? (Oily Black Stone?) Baby steps with me Brother, you know i have a thick skull! 

I guarantee the rock wasn't already on Westeros.   If the Dayne legend is true, that rock called to him and had to be used.  Why wouldn't another "living" stone, black, grey or purple do the same thing?  Let's see what we already know about the dark grey to black Valyrian swords...distinct color and ripples, razor sharp and resilient.  They are said to "drink the sun" read light, from the color of dyes and darken in dragon flame (Aegon I's funeral pyre).  Valyrian Steel is said to have a memory and act of its own accord (Jon & Brienne).   Can you add anything? 

 

Not beyond what I've said above and elsewhere: that it all boils down to soils, both in their forging and those that they "drink" in combat. And questions, of course:Do swords that have more souls have more power?  Are there other ways to use this energy?  To what extant do these souls tie these Swords to the web of destiny and prophecy?

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Dawn is said not to resemble VS in any way, being pale as milkglass while retaining the same properties of VS.  That's pretty much all we know about Dawn, but maybe the Daynes or even Starfall can tell us more?   The person who wields Dawn is the Sword of the Morning.   There was a Sword of the Evening.  Starfall is made of the same substance Dawn is, Dawn forged from the heart of a meteor or falling star.  This is called a "stone of magical powers".   There was a Dayne King named Samwell The Starfire.   Starfire is new.  Dawn may only be wielded by a knight considered worthy.  The pale color of Starfall and Dawn have not changed over the years.  Is that it? 

Dawn is the sword of Westeros- I think it is Excalibur and the Holy Grail in one (Holy Blade and Holy Blood?), sword and swordsman.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

May I add to your DeepNet OBS? AWOIAF: The Iron Islands

And when battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

Then again I suppose foul black weapons that drink the souls of the slain could also be said to exhibit a bit of Valyrian Steel characteristic, but I'm still stuck on the Ironborn!  

What say ye? 

I think that these could be either weapons made of the corrupted weirwood sent to the Drowned Men by their underwater "god" which either begin life black or become black after drinking souls (?) either as staffs and cudgels or forged like VS through some unknown process (the IB are renowned as ironworkers after all) -or- they are VS swords taken as plunder or purchased or bartered for(using other loot), Or, of course, these are just stories. I seldom bring it up, because its just... not fun, but it is always possible. I think there is too much about swords that drink stuff for this to just be smoke, though. The question is are these weapons from the forges of the IB or the Valyrians (or are they even older than Valyria?)?

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

 

From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1428/

Isn't that amazing? It's unclear and it probably won't be clarified by the end of the series... I personally really like that. It's a much more credible world if we can't be sure than it would be if we knew the complete chronology of their evolution... I mean, in the real world we haven't even figured out the complete human evolution from Austalipitecus afarensis to Homo sapiens yet. It's a part of the human condition, to try and make sense of our past long gone, our origins. And they are yet unclear. It would not be fun to be presented with a world where it's all been figured out.

You may have the best sigil I've ever seen, Lady. Welcome to our conversation(s). I couldn't agree more with you.  The deal with ASOIAF is that there is magic and that tends to throw us all off a little bit.   We can't really understand magic.   I read the myths and legends and stories and histories with an eye for truth and fall short so often.  Still I think there is truth somewhere in all of it.  We are all drawn in by the mysteries great and small.   What a masterful story.  

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Not beyond what I've said above and elsewhere: that it all boils down to soils, both in their forging and those that they "drink" in combat. And questions, of course:Do swords that have more souls have more power?  Are there other ways to use this energy?  To what extant do these souls tie these Swords to the web of destiny and prophecy?

Dawn is the sword of Westeros- I think it is Excalibur and the Holy Grail in one (Holy Blade and Holy Blood?), sword and swordsman.

I think that these could be either weapons made of the corrupted weirwood sent to the Drowned Men by their underwater "god" which either begin life black or become black after drinking souls (?) either as staffs and cudgels or forged like VS through some unknown process (the IB are renowned as ironworkers after all) -or- they are VS swords taken as plunder or purchased or bartered for(using other loot), Or, of course, these are just stories. I seldom bring it up, because its just... not fun, but it is always possible. I think there is too much about swords that drink stuff for this to just be smoke, though. The question is are these weapons from the forges of the IB or the Valyrians (or are they even older than Valyria?)?

Maybe the souls or power the swords "drink" simply keeps them going?  It's beginning to sound like immortality to me, you know sharp edge, resilience and memory.   I've read more than 1 horror story about tinkering with the Fountain of Youth.   However, I like your more eloquent idea that the souls the swords drink could be of some cosmic consequence.  Remember when Corbray tells Frickin Little Finger Lady Forlorn has a thirst for red or something like that?  Similar statements were made about Dark Sister.   Considering the statements were made hundreds of years apart I don't think it's mere posturing.  Perhaps the swords corrupt their wielders?  All I know is that a thing made with blood should seek blood after it's made.   Or souls.  

If the Dayne legend is just smoke, there is no denying the pale rock was there if nothing else.   Just happens I was reading one of your exchanges here about the weirwoods turning to stone.  What says this "fallen star" wasn't just a long dead weirwood grove turned to stone?  Just another random thought.   

Ok now we're getting to the meat of it.   Let's suppose the Ironborn weren't the first 1st Men, let's say they were the second 1st Men, from a different place than the 1st Men, Andals and Rhoynish to come.  Let's land them 8000 ago on the Islands.  My 1st thought about those foul black weapons was cast iron. 

How did they get their name, Ironborn, 5000 years before the Andals came with the 1st iron weapons?  How did they get cast iron or even as you say, Valyrian Steel 3000 years before Valyria was founded?  Where did they learn to build boats?  Is it possible the Ironborn came after the Andals?   Is it possible they are from Southros not Essos?   I don't see any clear or logical way they could get to the Iron Islands by boat from Essos.   It doesn't make sense.   Did different civilizations discover boats and iron simultaneously and independently?  At any rate, I think "foul black weapons" demands our attention. 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How about the Hairy Bear & The Maiden Fair?  Might be a good place to start looking for those hairy humans?  

Skaggosi?

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Faera said:

I know Jorah isn't particularly tall but maybe the Mormont men have some of the giants' hairiness?

I picked myself to quote 1st, but I am taking note of the hairy folk I'm finding.   Skaggosi.  Be back with more as they appear.   Where are the list makers!?!?!?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

I always think about Innsmouth folk whenever a Codd comes around in the books.

I'm finding people in places better suited to them more often.  Your idea is appreciated here and I think a few of our comrades are on board with this.   If you haven't read back, there is some really enlightening discussion of the Codds.   I'm waiting for them to get their own topic.  

[Rufus Snow]

Aagh, I knew this would happen, the thread has rocketed along whilst I was at work, and thrown in lots of references to other threads I need to look at ...

Though I said I was going to think more about 'Jaime Goldenhand', two other characters were speaking to me much more loudly, namely Odin and Bran. I see references in the thread to Odin/Bloodraven, so I'm obviously not the first to make the connection. My thoughts were:

Odin: One-eyed, self-sacrificing hanging in a tree, has two ravens as companions, named 'Memory' and 'Thought', plus two wolves called something linke 'Hungry' and Greedy'

BR: One-eyed, hanging/intergrown with a tree, raven connections, and very fond of saying "The Trees Remember", and has drawn Brandon Stark and his direwolf to him.

The WW trees seem to provide some kind of afterlife for the Singers (CotF), and their collective memory, the self-same Singers who amongst other things used to skinchange with ravens to serve as messengers. Odin's ravens also served as messengers.

But besides the trees, what else do we hear of 'remembering' rather frequently? Yes, the North. The North Remembers. Is that because so many of the surviving weirwoods are there? The North (predominantly) holds to the Old Gods, and we are given clues that the gods are the trees themselves. But the trees are also the totality of dead Singers. It is also revealed that the First Men used to make sacrifices (or at least blood offerings) to their trees. It is discussed in a Davos chapter at White Harbour, and there is the tree at White Tree strongly suggesting that the practice hasn't entirely died out amongst the Free Folk, either.

So, I was wondering, do all these Odin/BR parallels signpost anything? Maybe that BR's tree is a representation of the World Tree, Yggdrasil, which was the Norse 'omphalos', the centre of the cosmos about which everything revolves, and which connects all the realms - the heavens, earth, the hells. If it is the centre - or heart, as each godswood has its weirwood heart-tree, in microcosm - of the cosmos, could that suggest it IS the 'heart of winter' after all?

Of further interest are echoes in the Ironborn - their dead are transported to the Drowned God's watery halls as slain Norse warriors expected to be carried to Valhalla (if they die sword in hand), which is Odin's celestial feasting hall (where I think they stay until Ragnarok, but don't quite me on that). There's also something in the IB tales about a tree called Ygg (echo much???) which I need to add to my re-read agenda, cos I can't remember much of the tale now.

Alas, I can't provide a grand conclusion yet, it's just stuff I needed to download and add to the pot. I'll sleep on it, and now doubt whilst I sleep others here will like to have a play with it and perhaps we may squeeze some juice out of it (or possibly paste...)

 

And character two haunting my working hours was Bran the Blessed...

10 hours ago, hiemal said:

I need to find my copy of the mabinogian. The Arthurian subtext (inverted mostly) is something I've explored in many different threads- often focused on Lightbringer as an Unholy Grail (Dawn is the Grail itself probably)- and then often meandering into alchemy and Philosopher's Stones and Lapis Exillis- and on Florian the Fool as Percival.

It's interesting that you mention the Grail, hiemal, because one of Bran's attributes I didn't mention in my previous post was his magical cauldron - which is a Celtic precursor to the Grail mythos. This cauldron is partly a cornucopia, but it also resurrects the slain, although they lose the power of speech. Wights, anyone?

And then there is the tradition, folklore or whatever you will, linking Bran the Blessed to the ravens at the Tower of London. In the Mabinogion and other sources, Bran was slain, beheaded and his head continued to talk and advise his people for a while (maybe even prophetically). After it finally stopped speaking, it was buried at White Hill, usually identified as the site of the Tower of London, facing towards France, the legend being that it would cry out should invasion threaten. The more recent folklore is that should the ravens ever leave the Tower, then the realm will fall. Sort of a Watcher on the Walls, perhaps?

With all of GRRM's subversions of tropes and inversion of mythos, then this could take some disentangling, but am I alone in thinking there's something there to disentangle?

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

Ha! Once again we are off by a matter of generations- I also suspect that Garth was one of the Dawn Emperors, but that he is one of the gemstone emperors, who also correspond with the Seven, the Wanderers, and the Kingdoms. I don't think this is coincidence. I think they each visited Westeros at some point.

I think they might be the sun and the moon. Celestially, the Lightbringer Incident was an eclipse during the Lion of Night presented his dark face (the new moon), by overshadowing the Maiden-Made-of-Light and creating the fiery crown of usurpers shown in my forum picture.

I think they probably are as old as the CotF- just not on Westeros. One of the weirder aspects of this constructed history is the way different timelines and worlds seem to clash. We have dinosaurs and mammoths and cavemen (Lovecraftian Hairy Men of Ib and some of the more retrogressive Wildlings) and knights. I've considered the idea that each continent was once its own world, or part of one, and brought together artificially. Which species are native and which are alien? The Dawnites sound kind of alien to me, and I've tinfoiled that the pearl palanquin was some kind of lander. The Deep Ones seem very alien. There is an awful lot of human history at play here, so I'm inclined to peg humans as native, but with some temporal weirdness going on.

 

I'm on the fence on whether the Dawnites were human, superhuman (homo arcanus?), or alien.

This. I agree. I can't help but think of the 1000 world universe, Hp Love Craft Myth, and all the other things i mention in another thread

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149738-bloodraven-is-not-the-three-eyed-crow/&page=4

On page 4 i list alot of possible inspiration that is tied to things closely i think. 

The idea of the Weirwood Tree's being some entity like a god that came from space is not far fetched based on these possible inspirations i list along with Martin's usage of HP Love Craft Myth of Alien other worldly gods using black stone or such. 

Literally everything we talk about changes in scope when you think about these concepts and apply them.