Who Really Came 1st?

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have fun with your conclusions and think they need to stand for themselves.   I screwed up so badly in the OP and my reply to you.   It wasn't Owen Oakenshield born to Garth from a Giantess, it was Jon the Oak.   I'm so sorry.  I've got Owen on the brain.  

I understand where you are going.   Where do you think the very 1st humans in Westeros existed? 

Thank you! I hope im at least close and not just conjuring fan fiction though hahah  

And i totally got what you meant about Garth and the Giantress, and i didn't even notice the slip with Owen/Jon hahah it happens when the mind is racing with so many things and typing fast, happens to me alottttttt hahah

And as to where they started? Beyond the maps shown most likely, same as Tolkien. The unknown. South, East, South-East? 

[Leo of House Cartel]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm probably getting in over my head, so correct where needed.   The Deep Ones would be 1st creatures, right?  Not really around now, but sort of guardians of the Deep after making or fashioning their corrupt people, the Ironborn?  The Deep Ones are the Drowned God?    The Gray King?   I've been living in the history of the Ironborn.   I got nothing for water walls or what we are calling water magic.   What I do have is:

Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.    AWOIAF The Iron Islands

So we are dealing with skin, not armor.  What could make your skin so tough axes would shatter against it?   Greyscale, that's what. 

As I recall greyscale originated as a curse from Garin during the Rhoynish wars.  Kinda brings everything full circle in my mind.   Who was 1st--The Ironborn or the Rhoynish?  Does it fit at all, Leo?

I'm not sure, but there could be a case for the Deep Ones being the first intelligent culture in all of Planetos, if life did begin in the sea, that is.

The following quote does raise some questions.

"Ice dragons notwithstanding, the true kings of these northern waters are the whales. Half a dozen types of these great beasts make their homes in the Shivering Sea, amongst them grey whales, white whales, humpbacks, savage spotted whales with their hunting packs (which many call the wolves of the wild sea), and the mighty leviathans, the oldest and largest of all the living creatures of the earth". - The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea

Would these mighty beasts predate even the Children?

I'm assuming the Leviathans of ASOIAF, as whales, would be  mammalian, so one might not want to connect a creature that breathes air with one who probably relies on gills such as the Deep Ones. Still, this does perhaps point to life in the oceans of Planetos existing for long before terrestrial entities.

That's an interesting connection between Balon Blackskin and greyscale. If this is the case then how might Balon retain his mental capabilities with such an advanced case on the illness? Well, if the early IB really did have some fish based DNA then perhaps these genetics could somehow help subvert the greyscale's effect on ones mind, what with the disease being often associated with watery areas. 

We have quite the interesting list of "black" things related to the IB, I wonder how they might all connect.

•  Balon's "Black Skin" 
• "black blood" of House Hoare ,
• The "oily black stone" - used to carve the Seastone chair and often seem by watersides across Planetos.
• The "black, soul drinking IB weaponry"
• The black hair of the Greyjoys 
• Euron's Black eye

Great question about the Rhoynish and Iron Born - I can'y quite say who came first, but what I find odd is that both these cultures are highly talented, yet somewhat underrated by history in regards to the art of metal craft.

The Rhoynar were said to have been working iron even before the likes of the Valyrians, while the Iron Born have their old natural abundance of iron ore as well as the fact that they have the metal in their name. Both live hand in hand with the sea, and both were eventually brought to heal by enemies with superior tech.

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I'm not sure, but there could be a case for the Deep Ones being the first intelligent culture in all of Planetos, if life did begin in the sea, that is.

The following quote does raise some questions.

"Ice dragons notwithstanding, the true kings of these northern waters are the whales. Half a dozen types of these great beasts make their homes in the Shivering Sea, amongst them grey whales, white whales, humpbacks, savage spotted whales with their hunting packs (which many call the wolves of the wild sea), and the mighty leviathans, the oldest and largest of all the living creatures of the earth". - The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea

Would these mighty beasts predate even the Children?

I'm assuming the Leviathans of ASOIAF, as whales, would be  mammalian, so one might not want to connect a creature that breathes air with one who probably relies on gills such as the Deep Ones. Still, this does perhaps point to life in the oceans of Planetos existing for long before terrestrial entities.

That's an interesting connection between Balon Blackskin and greyscale. If this is the case then how might Balon retain his mental capabilities with such an advanced case on the illness? Well, if the early IB really did have some fish based DNA then perhaps these genetics could somehow help subvert the greyscale's effect on ones mind, what with the disease being often associated with watery areas. 

We have quite the interesting list of "black" things related to the IB, I wonder how they might all connect.

•  Balon's "Black Skin" 
• "black blood" of House Hoare ,
• The "oily black stone" - used to carve the Seastone chair and often seem by watersides across Planetos.
• The "black, soul drinking IB weaponry"
• The black hair of the Greyjoys 
• Euron's Black eye

Great question about the Rhoynish and Iron Born - I can'y quite say who came first, but what I find odd is that both these cultures are highly talented, yet somewhat underrated by history in regards to the art of metal craft.

The Rhoynar were said to have been working iron even before the likes of the Valyrians, while the Iron Born have their old natural abundance of iron ore as well as the fact that they have the metal in their name. Both live hand in hand with the sea, and both were eventually brought to heal by enemies with superior tech.

 

 

Knowing George's style, Balon Blackskin is likely a reference to the Ironborn, with a plentiful source of iron ore on their Islands, (hence the name), mastered the art of forging crude iron weapons and armor before the Andals arrived. Thus giving Balon Blackskin crude black iron armor that was impervious to the bronze weapons of the age.

That's Martin's style. Most of his legends are exaggerated myths built upon a much more mundane reality.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Knowing George's style, Balon Blackskin is likely a reference to the Ironborn, with a plentiful source of iron ore on their Islands, (hence the name), mastered the art of forging crude iron weapons and armor before the Andals arrived. Thus giving Balon Blackskin crude black iron armor that was impervious to the bronze weapons of the age.

That's Martin's style. Most of his legends are exaggerated myths built upon a much more mundane reality.

Which books are those? And Seven Times Never Kill Man? The Hero? Meat House Man?

No, Martin's style is that there is much more going on than what meets the eye at first. Despite the possible mundane answers seeming easier to except. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Which books are those? And Seven Times Never Kill Man? The Hero? Meat House Man?

No, Martin's style is that there is much more going on than what meets the eye at first. Despite the possible mundane answers seeming easier to except. 

Martin directly stated that it is not certain that the characters of legend even existed. Let alone that they were gods instead of men and such nonsense.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin directly stated that it is not certain that the characters of legend even existed. Let alone that they were gods instead of men and such nonsense.

Sounds open to me haha but hey, just stirring the pot  

[Leo of House Cartel]

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Knowing George's style, Balon Blackskin is likely a reference to the Ironborn, with a plentiful source of iron ore on their Islands, (hence the name), mastered the art of forging crude iron weapons and armor before the Andals arrived. Thus giving Balon Blackskin crude black iron armor that was impervious to the bronze weapons of the age.

That's Martin's style. Most of his legends are exaggerated myths built upon a much more mundane reality.

No doubt that the truth behind a lot of these legendary figures is far less exotic than the singers would have us believe. It's also worth noting that the truth behind a few of these fables may be even more impressive than the telling of the tale.

If it is the case that Balon's "black skin" was merely a confused reference to a suit of armour then I wonder how much more advanced the early IB were than their green lander counterparts. It would be pretty ironic if the Iron Born were at one point a kind of technological powerhouse in Westeros - their ship building and skill with ocean navigation apparently always being superior to the rest of the people in the country anyway.

I've seen it speculated a few times that the suit may have also perhaps been made of Valyrian/dragon steel, due to the impervious nature of the skin and the story of Balon being quite ancient. This could suggest an IB connection to a proto Valyrian civilisation, perhaps the GEOTD? What do you think?

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

24 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

No doubt that the truth behind a lot of these legendary figures is far less exotic than the singers would have us believe. It's also worth noting that the truth behind a few of these fables may be even more impressive than the telling of the tale.

If it is the case that Balon's "black skin" was merely a confused reference to a suit of armour then I wonder how much more advanced the early IB were than their green lander counterparts. It would be pretty ironic if the Iron Born were at one point a kind of technological powerhouse in Westeros - their ship building and skill with ocean navigation apparently always being superior to the rest of the people in the country anyway.

I've seen it speculated a few times that the suit may have also perhaps been made of Valyrian/dragon steel, due to the impervious nature of the skin and the story of Balon being quite ancient. This could suggest an IB connection to a proto Valyrian civilisation, perhaps the GEOTD? What do you think?

 

 

Well firstly, I don't believe in alternative dates for the origin of the Valyrian civilization. I think it is quite clear that they originated around 5000 years ago.

At the same time, I also believe in a more ancient civilization that predated Valyria, and had mastered (and probably created) dragons thousands of years earlier. But I place that civilization in Asshai. I don't buy into the GEOTD theory at all. I think that is just an origin myth of Yi-Ti, to make their civilization appear more ancient and to have a glorious history. I think there was a super advanced civilization in Asshai, but I don't think they were some great empire. Instead, they were most likely aloof, and may have been responsible for much of the genetic engineering that created all the hybrid species of ancient times.

And I think the reason for this was some kind of war they fought against the non-human ancient species like the Deep Ones, and maybe others we don't know about. Once that civilization fell - perhaps during the Long Night - the younger human civilizations like Ghis, Sarnor, Yi-ti and the Rhoynar were able to emerge to claim the world.

And I think as the one origin tale in World of Ice and Fire suggests, the only reason the Valyrians rose to dominance was because a remnant of the ancient Ashaii journeyed to Valyria (drawn by the only known surviving dragons residing in the Fourteen Fires), and taught the primitive Valyrians some of their ancient sorceries.

But I think the Valyrians were a poor copy of the much more accomplished ancient Ashaii, who actually CREATED the dragons, rather than just bonding with them.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I'm not sure, but there could be a case for the Deep Ones being the first intelligent culture in all of Planetos, if life did begin in the sea, that is.

The following quote does raise some questions.

"Ice dragons notwithstanding, the true kings of these northern waters are the whales. Half a dozen types of these great beasts make their homes in the Shivering Sea, amongst them grey whales, white whales, humpbacks, savage spotted whales with their hunting packs (which many call the wolves of the wild sea), and the mighty leviathans, the oldest and largest of all the living creatures of the earth". - The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea

Would these mighty beasts predate even the Children?

I'm assuming the Leviathans of ASOIAF, as whales, would be  mammalian, so one might not want to connect a creature that breathes air with one who probably relies on gills such as the Deep Ones. Still, this does perhaps point to life in the oceans of Planetos existing for long before terrestrial entities.

That's an interesting connection between Balon Blackskin and greyscale. If this is the case then how might Balon retain his mental capabilities with such an advanced case on the illness? Well, if the early IB really did have some fish based DNA then perhaps these genetics could somehow help subvert the greyscale's effect on ones mind, what with the disease being often associated with watery areas. 

We have quite the interesting list of "black" things related to the IB, I wonder how they might all connect.

•  Balon's "Black Skin" 
• "black blood" of House Hoare ,
• The "oily black stone" - used to carve the Seastone chair and often seem by watersides across Planetos.
• The "black, soul drinking IB weaponry"
• The black hair of the Greyjoys 
• Euron's Black eye

Great question about the Rhoynish and Iron Born - I can'y quite say who came first, but what I find odd is that both these cultures are highly talented, yet somewhat underrated by history in regards to the art of metal craft.

The Rhoynar were said to have been working iron even before the likes of the Valyrians, while the Iron Born have their old natural abundance of iron ore as well as the fact that they have the metal in their name. Both live hand in hand with the sea, and both were eventually brought to heal by enemies with superior tech.

 

Ah Leo, thanks for being so patient with me as I try to really wrap my head around this water magic.  I realize I'm cherry picking connections, but I wanted to give you an answer.   

I think there may be that kernel of truth in all the legends.   Aside from being a damned fine piece of fantasy literature, ASOIAF is also a collection of mysteries.   Clues are there.  We just have to figure them out.  

OK so origins in the deep.   Got it (I think)--predating all others.   Deep Ones are still in the water after creating their landlubbing races.  I had this crazy idea once that maybe the Old Gods created Westeros and the er, humanids.  I gave myself 12 gods.   The progression was the creation of the COTF, giants, least powerful humans to most powerful humans.  Each old god tried to do a little bit better than the previous.   Like the giants were created to showcase strength which sort of outdid the COTF who couldn't build.  Each god possessing its own preferences and creation ideas for a perfect world.  I know, it's not science, but it was fun to bat around.   

I think there was a castastrophe way back in time that forced creatures out of Essos, maybe Sothoros and Ultheros too.  The longer this thread gets the more convinced I am that the Ironborn came from Sothoros.   The Ironborn are simply too different from both 1st Men and Andals (on the timeline) and I see no logical way to get to the Iron Islands from Essos.   

I think our timeline may be off, too.   I can't reconcile a seafaring people called Ironborn predating the Andals unless the Andals learned their abilities from the Ironborn.   Still, here they are.  Not my catch, but there is that axe and hammer Balon Blackskin uses, too.   Another Andal connection.   One of these people predates the other, so which is it? 

If we are to accept the timeline we are given the Ironborn should arrive in Westeros after the Rhoynish Wars (because I'm hellbent that Blackskin of Balon's is greyscale).  I'm taking "skin" to be that kernel of truth in this tale.   Could be they were either the Rhoynish slaves or slavers Nymeria lost along her long way to Dorne.   It's possible the originators of a curse have some type of immunity to the curse and it could be Balon Blackskin was a stoneman through and through because the Ironborn are a particularly fearsome bunch.   (I'm thinking the Rhoynish among the Ironborn may have that meansured immunity to greyscale where their captors did not--the Ironborn being a combined people).  

What are we to do?   Do we accept the timeline of events which contains nye on impossible contradictions?  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well firstly, I don't believe in alternative dates for the origin of the Valyrian civilization. I think it is quite clear that they originated around 5000 years ago.

At the same time, I also believe in a more ancient civilization that predated Valyria, and had mastered (and probably created) dragons thousands of years earlier. But I place that civilization in Asshai. I don't buy into the GEOTD theory at all. I think that is just an origin myth of Yi-Ti, to make their civilization appear more ancient and to have a glorious history. I think there was a super advanced civilization in Asshai, but I don't think they were some great empire. Instead, they were most likely aloof, and may have been responsible for much of the genetic engineering that created all the hybrid species of ancient times.

And I think the reason for this was some kind of war they fought against the non-human ancient species like the Deep Ones, and maybe others we don't know about. Once that civilization fell - perhaps during the Long Night - the younger human civilizations like Ghis, Sarnor, Yi-ti and the Rhoynar were able to emerge to claim the world.

And I think as the one origin tale in World of Ice and Fire suggests, the only reason the Valyrians rose to dominance was because a remnant of the ancient Ashaii journeyed to Valyria (drawn by the only known surviving dragons residing in the Fourteen Fires), and taught the primitive Valyrians some of their ancient sorceries.

But I think the Valyrians were a poor copy of the much more accomplished ancient Ashaii, who actually CREATED the dragons, rather than just bonding with them.

Freeman, I feel like I'm just pounding my head against a wall.  Like you, I need to accept the timeline.  But it doesn't make any sense with respect to the Ironborn.  If the Andals brought ships and ironwork to Westeros The Ironborn can't already have ships and iron weapons before them.  They certainly can't really be called Ironborn and predate the Andals by thousands of years.  I've put forth my little hypothesis that cannot be proven that the Ironborn came after the Rhoynish and before the Valyrians.   That's got to be a good 700 years, right?   Considering I can't remember what I did last week  700 years may be enough time to misremember things.   

If the Ironborn land in this time rather than 1st or 2nd people to settle Westeros a lot of the peculiarities can be explained.  So what else is off?   

I agree 100% that the Valyrians were at the very least, the 2nd dragonriders and that the real origin of dragons and the ability to master them lies in Asshai.   I think it's entirely possible that Valyrian Steel is a magical material that may have been created specifically for Westeros and the coming Long Night.   Magic swords for a magic event involving a magical race.   The oldest VS sword in Westeros that we know of is Longclaw.  It arrives 500 years prior to current events.   Right between the catastrophes at Hardhome and the Doom.  Once Lady Forlorn and Ice arrive there are 10 VS swords in Westeros.  I won't bore you with all my VS swords math--all I can really say with any confidence is that 12 VS swords were required to fulfill a destiny.  It is fire's weapon against ice.

During my research for this topic I ran across the Skaggosi and was reminded that they produce obsidian weapons.  Hrm...I only recalled the COTF giving the Nights Watch caches of this weaponry.   Hells Bells, why do the Skaggosi know to do this?   Is obsidian their only commodity?  

It's not unlikely that the Valyrians knew another Long Night would come or something like it.   Daenys Targaryan dreamed the Doom--there is no reason not to believe there are some psychic abilities in ASOIAF.  Hard to deny that under the umbrella of magic.  

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Aagh, I knew this would happen, the thread has rocketed along whilst I was at work, and thrown in lots of references to other threads I need to look at ...

Though I said I was going to think more about 'Jaime Goldenhand', two other characters were speaking to me much more loudly, namely Odin and Bran. I see references in the thread to Odin/Bloodraven, so I'm obviously not the first to make the connection. My thoughts were:

Odin: One-eyed, self-sacrificing hanging in a tree, has two ravens as companions, named 'Memory' and 'Thought', plus two wolves called something linke 'Hungry' and Greedy'

BR: One-eyed, hanging/intergrown with a tree, raven connections, and very fond of saying "The Trees Remember", and has drawn Brandon Stark and his direwolf to him.

The WW trees seem to provide some kind of afterlife for the Singers (CotF), and their collective memory, the self-same Singers who amongst other things used to skinchange with ravens to serve as messengers. Odin's ravens also served as messengers.

But besides the trees, what else do we hear of 'remembering' rather frequently? Yes, the North. The North Remembers. Is that because so many of the surviving weirwoods are there? The North (predominantly) holds to the Old Gods, and we are given clues that the gods are the trees themselves. But the trees are also the totality of dead Singers. It is also revealed that the First Men used to make sacrifices (or at least blood offerings) to their trees. It is discussed in a Davos chapter at White Harbour, and there is the tree at White Tree strongly suggesting that the practice hasn't entirely died out amongst the Free Folk, either.

So, I was wondering, do all these Odin/BR parallels signpost anything? Maybe that BR's tree is a representation of the World Tree, Yggdrasil, which was the Norse 'omphalos', the centre of the cosmos about which everything revolves, and which connects all the realms - the heavens, earth, the hells. If it is the centre - or heart, as each godswood has its weirwood heart-tree, in microcosm - of the cosmos, could that suggest it IS the 'heart of winter' after all?

Of further interest are echoes in the Ironborn - their dead are transported to the Drowned God's watery halls as slain Norse warriors expected to be carried to Valhalla (if they die sword in hand), which is Odin's celestial feasting hall (where I think they stay until Ragnarok, but don't quite me on that). There's also something in the IB tales about a tree called Ygg (echo much???) which I need to add to my re-read agenda, cos I can't remember much of the tale now.

Alas, I can't provide a grand conclusion yet, it's just stuff I needed to download and add to the pot. I'll sleep on it, and now doubt whilst I sleep others here will like to have a play with it and perhaps we may squeeze some juice out of it (or possibly paste...)

 

And character two haunting my working hours was Bran the Blessed...

It's interesting that you mention the Grail, hiemal, because one of Bran's attributes I didn't mention in my previous post was his magical cauldron - which is a Celtic precursor to the Grail mythos. This cauldron is partly a cornucopia, but it also resurrects the slain, although they lose the power of speech. Wights, anyone?

And then there is the tradition, folklore or whatever you will, linking Bran the Blessed to the ravens at the Tower of London. In the Mabinogion and other sources, Bran was slain, beheaded and his head continued to talk and advise his people for a while (maybe even prophetically). After it finally stopped speaking, it was buried at White Hill, usually identified as the site of the Tower of London, facing towards France, the legend being that it would cry out should invasion threaten. The more recent folklore is that should the ravens ever leave the Tower, then the realm will fall. Sort of a Watcher on the Walls, perhaps?

With all of GRRM's subversions of tropes and inversion of mythos, then this could take some disentangling, but am I alone in thinking there's something there to disentangle?

Have you ever come across our brilliant @sweetsunray?  She's my ancient myth authority.   I think you two would have a ball going over all this together.  Now, you have to pardon my confused memories of these myths.   I've spent a lot of time researching and trying to become acquainted, but my memory isn't always what it should be.   (When you were going over Bran the Blessed's story I remembered his head being kept in the cauldron!)  But yes, absolutely ASOIAF has roots in those old myths and legends.  Still I wonder if it isn't a nod of respect for the ingenuity of these stories rather than keys to the mysteries.  Either way, there is definitely some disentangling to be had here. 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin directly stated that it is not certain that the characters of legend even existed. Let alone that they were gods instead of men and such nonsense.

Haha, there we are thinking alike.   I've been participating in @AlaskanSandman's topic about Bloodraven and the 3EC and brought the same argument up regarding the Nights King.   Alaskan Sandman shot the actual quote to me over there so I know he's got it.   The quote is open to interpretation.    However, SSMs are no different than ASOIAF or its histories, we interpret the same things very differently.  Maybe he will have time to give us the actual quote.  

[Rufus Snow]

The problem with interpreting myths and legends and even purported history (which I have described before as the most prolific and deliberate unreliable narrator), is that although some of it may be true, we don't always have good grounds for deciding which bits, and in which regard.

To my mind, all the stuff about Ironborn 'black skins', 'black swords' etc recalls the dismay of a bronze-age warrior meeting an iron-age warrior. A similar notion attaches to the (real world) myths of elves being especially susceptible to iron - though in this version, the tales are from the iron-wielders' perspective.

As to origins in Planetos though, I'm prepared to accept the tale that Asshai is the oldest city on the planet - its inhabitants claim it existed at the very beginning of time, for instance, though have no memory of its builders. However, I don't accept it was ever part of the Empire of the Dawn. The myths outline the lands the GEotD covered, which fall short of Asshai - why accept that, for instance, 'God on Earth' really existed from that myth, whilst not also accepting the same myths' claim that the GEotD only occupied certain territority? That strikes me as selecting evidence to suit the theory.

Anyway, what I wanted to drop in the mix today was a little observation from Dany as she made her way across the Dothraki Sea after marrying Drogo:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

They crossed the rolling hills of Norvos, past terraced farms and small villages where the townsfolk watched anxiously from atop white stucco walls. They forded three wide placid rivers and a fourth that was swift and narrow and treacherous, camped beside a high blue waterfall, skirted the tumbled ruins of a vast dead city where ghosts were said to moan among blackened marble columns. They raced down Valyrian roads a thousand years old and straight as a Dothraki arrow. For half a moon, they rode through the Forest of Qohor, where the leaves made a golden canopy high above them, and the trunks of the trees were as wide as city gates. There were great elk in that wood, and spotted tigers, and lemurs with silver fur and huge purple eyes, but all fled before the approach of the khalasar and Dany got no glimpse of them.

 

 

Now, if we're positing various related species of 'human' - which me might assune evolved in a similar manner to real humans amidst a diverse family of primates - including lemurs - could these little Qohorik critters be important? Their appearance is somewhat suggestive, no?

[hiemal]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Maybe the souls or power the swords "drink" simply keeps them going?  It's beginning to sound like immortality to me, you know sharp edge, resilience and memory. 

An interesting line of thought. I've long speculated that the Long Night was all about the BSE achieving immortality. It does to keep the souls from circulating, and they seem to retain something of personality and perhaps even something of will. I think special circumstances are required, though- not just anyone slain on a VS blade is going to a part of the Sword's personality. For example- if Mott hadn't melted down and reforged Ice after it drank Ned's life what would have happened? Or if he had washed it? Taking another example, the deserter that Ned beheaded early on- did his soul move as normal, did it longer on Ice's surface for a time and the pass on when Ned cleaned it later beneath the Heart Tree, or did Ice absorb it for some purpose of its own?

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Maybe the souls or power the swords "drink" simply keeps them going?  It's beginning to sound like immortality to me, you know sharp edge, resilience and memory.   I've read more than 1 horror story about tinkering with the Fountain of Youth.   However, I like your more eloquent idea that the souls the swords drink could be of some cosmic consequence.  Remember when Corbray tells Frickin Little Finger Lady Forlorn has a thirst for red or something like that?  Similar statements were made about Dark Sister.   Considering the statements were made hundreds of years apart I don't think it's mere posturing.  Perhaps the swords corrupt their wielders?  All I know is that a thing made with blood should seek blood after it's made.   Or souls. 

Exactly.

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

If the Dayne legend is just smoke, there is no denying the pale rock was there if nothing else.   Just happens I was reading one of your exchanges here about the weirwoods turning to stone.  What says this "fallen star" wasn't just a long dead weirwood grove turned to stone?  Just another random thought.  

An interesting one. It would certainly put a new spin on just about everything else.

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ok now we're getting to the meat of it.   Let's suppose the Ironborn weren't the first 1st Men, let's say they were the second 1st Men, from a different place than the 1st Men, Andals and Rhoynish to come.  Let's land them 8000 ago on the Islands.  My 1st thought about those foul black weapons was cast iron. 

How did they get their name, Ironborn, 5000 years before the Andals came with the 1st iron weapons?  How did they get cast iron or even as you say, Valyrian Steel 3000 years before Valyria was founded?  Where did they learn to build boats?  Is it possible the Ironborn came after the Andals?   Is it possible they are from Southros not Essos?   I don't see any clear or logical way they could get to the Iron Islands by boat from Essos.   It doesn't make sense.   Did different civilizations discover boats and iron simultaneously and independently?  At any rate, I think "foul black weapons" demands our attention. 

Somewhere in tWoiaF I remember a quote from some maester about how the dates given for the expansion of First Men from Dorne just didn't add up and that they were in the North way too quickly- I think that you are exactly right. There are multiple influxes of "First Men" from either different places -and/or- different times. The CotF are fairies of a sort, and time is always distorted in Faerie so it may be that this explains the disparities in advancement regarding bronze vs. iron, etc. I dunno for sure, but like I've said before when you have this many anachronisms and prophecies clashing something is going on with the fabric of time itself.

 

 

[hiemal]

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Aagh, I knew this would happen, the thread has rocketed along whilst I was at work, and thrown in lots of references to other threads I need to look at ...

Though I said I was going to think more about 'Jaime Goldenhand', two other characters were speaking to me much more loudly, namely Odin and Bran. I see references in the thread to Odin/Bloodraven, so I'm obviously not the first to make the connection. My thoughts were:

Odin: One-eyed, self-sacrificing hanging in a tree, has two ravens as companions, named 'Memory' and 'Thought', plus two wolves called something linke 'Hungry' and Greedy'

BR: One-eyed, hanging/intergrown with a tree, raven connections, and very fond of saying "The Trees Remember", and has drawn Brandon Stark and his direwolf to him.

The WW trees seem to provide some kind of afterlife for the Singers (CotF), and their collective memory, the self-same Singers who amongst other things used to skinchange with ravens to serve as messengers. Odin's ravens also served as messengers.

But besides the trees, what else do we hear of 'remembering' rather frequently? Yes, the North. The North Remembers. Is that because so many of the surviving weirwoods are there? The North (predominantly) holds to the Old Gods, and we are given clues that the gods are the trees themselves. But the trees are also the totality of dead Singers. It is also revealed that the First Men used to make sacrifices (or at least blood offerings) to their trees. It is discussed in a Davos chapter at White Harbour, and there is the tree at White Tree strongly suggesting that the practice hasn't entirely died out amongst the Free Folk, either.

So, I was wondering, do all these Odin/BR parallels signpost anything? Maybe that BR's tree is a representation of the World Tree, Yggdrasil, which was the Norse 'omphalos', the centre of the cosmos about which everything revolves, and which connects all the realms - the heavens, earth, the hells. If it is the centre - or heart, as each godswood has its weirwood heart-tree, in microcosm - of the cosmos, could that suggest it IS the 'heart of winter' after all?

Of further interest are echoes in the Ironborn - their dead are transported to the Drowned God's watery halls as slain Norse warriors expected to be carried to Valhalla (if they die sword in hand), which is Odin's celestial feasting hall (where I think they stay until Ragnarok, but don't quite me on that). There's also something in the IB tales about a tree called Ygg (echo much???) which I need to add to my re-read agenda, cos I can't remember much of the tale now.

Alas, I can't provide a grand conclusion yet, it's just stuff I needed to download and add to the pot. I'll sleep on it, and now doubt whilst I sleep others here will like to have a play with it and perhaps we may squeeze some juice out of it (or possibly paste...)

 

 

I think the Yggdrasil imagery is definitely important- we the CotF, the squirrel people, as little Ratatoskrs and we have have hints of an antagonistic relationship with the firenet via Nidhogg? But who is the Eagle?

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It's interesting that you mention the Grail, hiemal, because one of Bran's attributes I didn't mention in my previous post was his magical cauldron - which is a Celtic precursor to the Grail mythos. This cauldron is partly a cornucopia, but it also resurrects the slain, although they lose the power of speech. Wights, anyone?

 

Doesn't bode well for Bran, does it?

And we also have not one but two Dagda candidates- the King the Wall called the Horned Lord, and King Robert Barratheon as the more buffoonish version that became popular later with big belly and giant schlong.

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

And character two haunting my working hours was Bran the Blessed...

It's interesting that you mention the Grail, hiemal, because one of Bran's attributes I didn't mention in my previous post was his magical cauldron - which is a Celtic precursor to the Grail mythos. This cauldron is partly a cornucopia, but it also resurrects the slain, although they lose the power of speech. Wights, anyone?

And then there is the tradition, folklore or whatever you will, linking Bran the Blessed to the ravens at the Tower of London. In the Mabinogion and other sources, Bran was slain, beheaded and his head continued to talk and advise his people for a while (maybe even prophetically). After it finally stopped speaking, it was buried at White Hill, usually identified as the site of the Tower of London, facing towards France, the legend being that it would cry out should invasion threaten. The more recent folklore is that should the ravens ever leave the Tower, then the realm will fall. Sort of a Watcher on the Walls, perhaps?

With all of GRRM's subversions of tropes and inversion of mythos, then this could take some disentangling, but am I alone in thinking there's something there to disentangle?

Nope.

[hiemal]

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This. I agree. I can't help but think of the 1000 world universe, Hp Love Craft Myth, and all the other things i mention in another thread

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149738-bloodraven-is-not-the-three-eyed-crow/&page=4

On page 4 i list alot of possible inspiration that is tied to things closely i think. 

The idea of the Weirwood Tree's being some entity like a god that came from space is not far fetched based on these possible inspirations i list along with Martin's usage of HP Love Craft Myth of Alien other worldly gods using black stone or such. 

Literally everything we talk about changes in scope when you think about these concepts and apply them. 

Yep. I'd say his 3 biggest fantasy-fictional influences in terms of world-building are (in order of influence) Lovecraft (the outright references are too many to list), Moorcock's "Elric of Melnibone" series and to lesser extent other Eternal Champions (The 70's anti-Tolkien), and Tad William's "Memory, Sorrow, Thorn" (fairly recent but GRRM has name-dropped it as influential).

[The Fattest Leech]

16 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Yep. I'd say his 3 biggest fantasy-fictional influences in terms of world-building are (in order of influence) Lovecraft (the outright references are too many to list), Moorcock's "Elric of Melnibone" series and to lesser extent other Eternal Champions (The 70's anti-Tolkien), and Tad William's "Memory, Sorrow, Thorn" (fairly recent but GRRM has name-dropped it as influential).

And Comic books. He goes on and on about this in interviews and his anthology. This only makes me  GRRM even more. 

[hiemal]

24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And Comic books. He goes on and on about this in interviews and his anthology. This only makes me  GRRM even more. 

Wild Cards was how I first stumbled onto GRRM. I noticed that Roger Zelazney was in so I had to check it out.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

An interesting line of thought. I've long speculated that the Long Night was all about the BSE achieving immortality. It does to keep the souls from circulating, and they seem to retain something of personality and perhaps even something of will. I think special circumstances are required, though- not just anyone slain on a VS blade is going to a part of the Sword's personality. For example- if Mott hadn't melted down and reforged Ice after it drank Ned's life what would have happened? Or if he had washed it? Taking another example, the deserter that Ned beheaded early on- did his soul move as normal, did it longer on Ice's surface for a time and the pass on when Ned cleaned it later beneath the Heart Tree, or did Ice absorb it for some purpose of its own?

Exactly.

An interesting one. It would certainly put a new spin on just about everything else.

Somewhere in tWoiaF I remember a quote from some maester about how the dates given for the expansion of First Men from Dorne just didn't add up and that they were in the North way too quickly- I think that you are exactly right. There are multiple influxes of "First Men" from either different places -and/or- different times. The CotF are fairies of a sort, and time is always distorted in Faerie so it may be that this explains the disparities in advancement regarding bronze vs. iron, etc. I dunno for sure, but like I've said before when you have this many anachronisms and prophecies clashing something is going on with the fabric of time itself.

 

 

I'm tickled you seemed to like the alternate version of Starfall.   I'm pretty sure you are the only one who can get me to dig that deep for something.   

Really appreciate your closing statements about the fabric of time.   Maybe it runs faster for some and slower for others and just a moment out of sync for others.  Perhaps it's just a veil folks have to pass through to get from 1 dragon dream to shadow babies.  I'm glad the maesters fessed up to not having an answer.  Honestly there is no way to answer the OP--we may have too much information then again we may have just enough but its all out of time.   I'm rather pleased with my little idea about the Ironborn that was itself conceived with your expertise and willingness to imagine.   If nothing else I know you've enjoyed yourself a bit and those Codds!  High point!   

[Lady Barbrey]

I have always considered the tales of Yi Ti and Leng etc to be but inverted, Asianized, tales of the history of Westeros.  The tall thin Lengi in their last southern island outpost the counterparts of the small CotF in their isolated cave in the North. Geography and stature upside down.  Not a perfect fit but in broad strokes it works.  Four times the Lengi try to shrug off the humans - four times the CotF tried to keep humans out of Westeros.  The Lengi matriarch "marries" two humans - one to command her armies, one to command her navies - in a metaphor of CotF transformations/hybridizations with humans to create the Others as an Army and a Merfolk as a Navy to fight against humans themselves. We've only heard rumours of things beneath the sea, but they might play a part; regardless, the Ironborn might have partially descended from a race like the Others only sea-based and perhaps more various in their permutations.

So for me I think that the Lengi/Children were the first throughout all the lands, having evolved as all creatures evolve, but with a talent for magic and particularly transformation, not just spiritual but physical too.   Then come the humans, evolving from silverhaired lemurs with violet eyes or hairy neanderthals, etc., until they threaten the land.  To me the various transformations of humans into wargs or giants or Others or merfolk or river magic people or dragonbloods, etc., likely stem from efforts by the Children to pacify, reinvent or battle humans in their eons-long attempt to keep their forests, lands and seas inviolate from human depredations.

So the first in Westeros? Likely the Children.  

And if you follow the colour symbolism in the Yi Ti section, you get a broad idea of the major waves of humans to Westeros.  First are the "maroons" - shipwrecked sailors and escaped slaves, for instance, that begin a civilization of sorts and from whence the oily black stone and sea hybrids are associated, possibly mingling blood with the much later Iron-born influx and even the Hightowers, who I think might have formed the first kingdom.  Then an influx of "purple", likely First Men associated in myth or fact with the legend of the Amethyst Empress and the people fleeing the slavery and bloodshed of the Bloodstone Empire from all over Essos.  And lastly the scarlet if I remember correctly, the Targaryan invasion.  It's been a few years since I read WoIaF but I remember having fun fitting all the bits and pieces together.

Anyway, it's worth a look for anyone interested.  I got onto it when I realized all those God-Emperors were really thinly-veiled references to certain Westerosi families or characters.