Who Really Came 1st?

[Curled Finger]

Ancient history of Westeros indicates that the Children of the Forest and giants are cited as the original inhabitants of Westeros. A scan of AWOIAF reveals mention of a potential “third” race—The Others in one place and the people before the Ironborn in another.  However, as we cruise through the fascinating history of the world we find other races whose origins are not explained.   We are told that of all the continents on Planetos, Westeros had no primitive humans though they are thought to have been populace on Essos.  How is this possible with the continents attached?  There are “elder races” which I presume consist of the COTF and giants as well as Deep Ones, Selkies and Merlings.  The Ironborn seem to be counted apart from the 1^st Men.  There are human/giant hybrids and weather gods.  There are COTF/human hybrids as well as magical 1^st Men.   It is known that the Valyrians as dragon lords only date back about 5000 years and unclear if the Andals descend from the maze makers of Lorath.  

No one knows if the Seastone Chair was already there when the Ironborn landed. The Ironborn have the tale of their Gray King carving longships from the flesh of Ygg, the cannibal tree.  He was said to have wed a mermaid and ruled the sea.  The Gray King slew the sea dragon Nagga and made a hall of parts of her carcass.  There are no rumors of COTF or giants or humans on the Iron Islands before the Ironborn.  

Did the 1^st Men arrive in Westeros with their magic or was it something they gained?  Unions and interbreeding between the COTF and giants with humans are evident in the Crannogmen and House Umber as well as statements in AWOIAF of further unions with the maze makers and the son of Garth Greenhand, Owen Oakenshield.   House Umber’s sigil is a giant breaking chains.  Tales of Squishers are told in Crackclaw Point.   They are described as

“Monsters,"  "They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth." AFFC Brienne IV

 It isn’t a giant leap of faith to assume the Squishers were in Westeros when the 1^st Men arrived.   People on the Sisters even have webbed feet.   House Manderly’s sigil is a merling. 

We’ve got maesters’ statements regarding potential 3^rd races on prehistoric Westeros.   That makes 4 races if anyone is counting.   We’ve got giants all over Essos.  We’ve got origin legends from the Ironborn—but are they legends?   The World Book makes mention without explaining the selkies, merlings, Others and Deep Ones.  There seems to be abundant magic for the 1^st Men (who may have actually been as far back in habitation as 5^th!) but no particular magic attributed to anyone but the Children of the Forest in the face of the Ironborn origin tale.   Without discussion of the several errors in AWOIAF, does this tomb contain enough information to determine the actual progress of the races that initially inhabited Westeros? 

[kissdbyfire]

I don't think we'll be able to figure this out w/o more info... What we do sort of know that seems reliable info is that the CotF and the giants were, if not the the very first, among the very first inhabitants. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Did the 1^st Men arrive in Westeros with their magic or was it something they gained?

I think it was something they gained. Like a gift that was bestowed on them by the CotF or that they acquired through intermarriage w/ the CotF when they signed the Pact. I also think this gift wasn't bestowed/passed on to all FM lineages, and that the FM sigils we see today are a hint at which ones did receive it. Who knows, the Boltons' penchant for flaying may very well be nothing more than skinchanger envy!

[Rufus Snow]

Good question ... and you're not the only one wondering. If I start rambling, it's just that I'm still mulling it over myself....

The mists of time cloud the rearview mirror quite badly, I think. What is it now, 12,000 years since the First Men crossed over? And yet there are al these families claiming descent from named individuals so long ago. I don't believe that any more than I believe certain Classical Greek families truly descended from Hercules, Zeus or Athena.

Families as much as nations have their founding myths, and project archetypes backwards in time for purposes of self-aggrandisement. In Athens it was the case that upstarts would suddenly claim ancesters even grander than the ancestors claimed by the previous elite families, in a game of mytho-genealogical trumps, and they play the same games in Westeros.

Which elder races really existed is a tough one. When we begin AGoT, virtually everyone believes the Others no longer exist, but we - the readers - see them. Yet belief in merlings and selkies persist, but we, the readers, never see them (as far as I recall....)

Compare it all to the mytho-history of Ireland, with the Milesian Myth, the Fir Bolg, the Tuatha De Daanan etc - a close parallel to the waves of habitation in Westeros, with various waves of men, 'the good folk', giants etc etc. Some of Ireland's 'elder races' recall CotF (the Sidh), whereas others seem to recall passing waves of human migration. Trying to decipher it all is still more than modern archaeology and genetics can truly figure out in our world, so generally I reckon the maesters and septons can't do any better in terms of tracing the past.

What I think is most interesting in all this is artefacts rather than stories - the oily black stone, which appears to crop up in widely spread locations of the known world - Asshai, the Seastone Chair, the base of the Hightower, possibly even the Five Forts. That this is distinct from Valyrian fused stone is clear from what we read, and it also appears to be older. Almost certainly predating the First Men arriving in Westeros. Was this the work of an earlier race of men, or another elder race lost to memory? I don't know, but I'd love more clues.

Has there really been only one Long Night in the past? That was what, 8,000 years ago (maybe 6,000) and totally destroyed the Great Empire of the Dawn - Yi Ti took a long time to rebuild from the ashes. Who's to say that there haven't been many and more Long Nights, with ever older civilisations being knocked back to anarchy only to rebuild upon the ashes and myths of earlier times?

[Faera]

Oooooo such a fun topic, @Curled Finger, and one I have wondered about myself. Anthropology of the races and ethnicities of Westeros is something I have often wondered about because there are so many ways to come at it!

Now, I have always been of the opinion that all of the humanoid species - the Children of the Forest (Singers), the Men, the Giants and the Others - must all share a common ancestor because of all the reports that they interbreed with each other. Such a union would not be possible unless each one of these species was biologically linked and effectively the same species, just different having evolved based on their environment. To me, this means that all of these species have the ability to use magic and could potentially be Greenseer - the top-tier magic-users. Bloodraven's cave had the skulls of humans, giants and singers. While there are other animals too, either having died or been sacrificed to the Great Weirwood, we might be able to infer that there have been Giant Greenseers as much as human and singers. Humans seem to act as a useful species to breed with as not only do they "spread their seed" (Garth Greenhand bringing agriculture and kinky to Westeros ) but their size allows, possibly, female humans to breed with male CotF/Others and male humans breeding with female giants, resulting in interbreeding and Man-species with attributes and cultures inherited from one of the other humanoid species (House Umber, Hodor, possibly even the Cleganes and other super-tall people, having a remarkable height of at least 7ft and great physical strength; Crannogmen being naturally magical and having heightened senses, value unusual eye-colours like the CoTF).

Due to the history of Westeros being so unreliable until the Maesters and Andals sort of started fresh and retconned everything, we have no idea what caused the races to go to war, whether everyone was involved or how many times they teamed up against the Others to destroy them. IDK why but I also presumed the Others became a threat to the other humanoid species at least twice: the first time, which led to the Pact, and the second time towards the Age of Heroes, when the Last Hero sought the CotF to team up again to defeat them.

Also, I have never thought about it before but re-reading it during your post the description of the Squishers almost feels as if it could be talking about some sort of Southron Crannogmen or an off-shoot of them or a human-CotF hybrid species. Or at least the myth of them is based on the misinformation that circulates about them. Of all the ethnic groups we know of the closest to the "old ways" appear to be the Crannogmen. They are humans (As Maester Yandel says in TWoIaF book, "Last (and some might say the least) of the peoples of the North") but they receive a lot of racial attacks on their people and culture from those around them with people talking about them as if they are sub-human, an entirely different species from Men, and even likening them to animals and creatures:

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East of the road lay a bleak and barren shore and a cold salt sea, to the west the swamps and bogs of the Neck, infested with serpents, lizard lions, and bog devils with their poisoned arrows. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

 

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No true man killed with poison. At Moat Cailin the bog devils had loosed poisoned arrows at his men, but that was to be expected from such degraded creatures. Serry had been a knight, highborn. Poison was for cravens, women, and Dornishmen. A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

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So, the remark that "[Squishers] look like men till you get close," might indicate that they are indeed just Men but might be dressed differently. The whole "their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair" and "They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles" reminds me of Big Walder's assertion that the dogs will never find Meera and Jojen because,

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"Frogeaters don't smell like men [...] They have a boggy stink, like frogs and trees and scummy water. Moss grows under their arms in place of hair, and they can live with nothing to eat but mud and breathe swamp water." A Clash of Kings - Theon IV

 

And, of course, the very first insult he throws at them when they walk in: "They're thieves and cravens, and they have green teeth from eating frogs." (A Clash of Kings - Bran III). Then, we have the remark that Squishers have "Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers" reminds me of TWoIaF companion book where the maesters comment on the false belief of the riverfolk "that the crannogmen... have webbed hands and feet like frogs".

If what I am thinking is true, then I would argue the Squishers are simply a society of humans who, like the Crannogmen, keep to themselves and were widely ridiculed and insulted due to their way of life being so different to the bog(aha)-standard of Westerosi culture especially after the Andal invasion.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think we'll be able to figure this out w/o more info... What we do sort of know that seems reliable info is that the CotF and the giants were, if not the the very first, among the very first inhabitants. 

I think it was something they gained. Like a gift that was bestowed on them by the CotF or that they acquired through intermarriage w/ the CotF when they signed the Pact. I also think this gift wasn't bestowed/passed on to all FM lineages, and that the FM sigils we see today are a hint at which ones did receive it. Who knows, the Boltons' penchant for flaying may very well be nothing more than skinchanger envy!

Ah, kissdbyfire, you always bring good good stuff to the conversation.  I posted a topic about the 4 kings and their magic over in the WOAIF subtopic a few weeks ago.   Convinced I'd solved the mystery of the magic of the Red Kings, I typed away.   The topic received little activity and I am no closer to understanding the magic of the 1st Men than I was.  As you can see, origins and answers are bugging me.  I didn't realize there were so many potential folks prior to the 1st Men coming.  My friend Shellie has been researching away about the Ironborn and their origins and in listening to her findings it's obvious that history is lacking.   As I composed this topic I found it odd that some of the people such as merlings, giants and selkies were not capitalized while 1st Men and COTF were.   What does that mean since we know that giants exist in modern day Westeros?  

I was of the mind that the 1st Men were magical when they migrated.   But how magical can a people be if they haven't even developed travel by boat?   (Sarcasm)  I'm really thinking the Ironborn came prior to the 1st Men.   We have the Farwynds settling the Lonely Light (though I imagine they were exiled to this far away place).   We know that the Farwynds are skinchangers and there were no COTF or giants on the Iron Islands.   I suppose it could have all come down as you say, gifts from the COTF, but this is a curious example that challenges readers to explain magic.    Looking forward to anything else you have to add!  

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Good question ... and you're not the only one wondering. If I start rambling, it's just that I'm still mulling it over myself....

The mists of time cloud the rearview mirror quite badly, I think. What is it now, 12,000 years since the First Men crossed over? And yet there are al these families claiming descent from named individuals so long ago. I don't believe that any more than I believe certain Classical Greek families truly descended from Hercules, Zeus or Athena.

Families as much as nations have their founding myths, and project archetypes backwards in time for purposes of self-aggrandisement. In Athens it was the case that upstarts would suddenly claim ancesters even grander than the ancestors claimed by the previous elite families, in a game of mytho-genealogical trumps, and they play the same games in Westeros.

Which elder races really existed is a tough one. When we begin AGoT, virtually everyone believes the Others no longer exist, but we - the readers - see them. Yet belief in merlings and selkies persist, but we, the readers, never see them (as far as I recall....)

Compare it all to the mytho-history of Ireland, with the Milesian Myth, the Fir Bolg, the Tuatha De Daanan etc - a close parallel to the waves of habitation in Westeros, with various waves of men, 'the good folk', giants etc etc. Some of Ireland's 'elder races' recall CotF (the Sidh), whereas others seem to recall passing waves of human migration. Trying to decipher it all is still more than modern archaeology and genetics can truly figure out in our world, so generally I reckon the maesters and septons can't do any better in terms of tracing the past.

What I think is most interesting in all this is artefacts rather than stories - the oily black stone, which appears to crop up in widely spread locations of the known world - Asshai, the Seastone Chair, the base of the Hightower, possibly even the Five Forts. That this is distinct from Valyrian fused stone is clear from what we read, and it also appears to be older. Almost certainly predating the First Men arriving in Westeros. Was this the work of an earlier race of men, or another elder race lost to memory? I don't know, but I'd love more clues.

Has there really been only one Long Night in the past? That was what, 8,000 years ago (maybe 6,000) and totally destroyed the Great Empire of the Dawn - Yi Ti took a long time to rebuild from the ashes. Who's to say that there haven't been many and more Long Nights, with ever older civilisations being knocked back to anarchy only to rebuild upon the ashes and myths of earlier times?

Dang Man, pretty good questions yourself, @Rufus Snow!  Allow me to begin by asking which 1st Men migrated to Westeros 12,000 years ago?   The World Book states:

According to their faith, the Ironborn are a race apart from the common run of mankind. "We did not come to these holy islands from godless lands across the seas," the priest Sauron Salt-Tongue once said. "We came from beneath those seas, from the watery halls of the Drowned God who made us in his likeness and gave to us dominion over all the waters of the earth."  TWOIAF The Iron Islands 

There are more legendary people in Westeros originating in the water than on land by my count.

That oily black stone has been debated heatedly more than once.   I don't pretend to have answers.   It's there.   It's bizarre.  It's rare.   Can we draw any similarities between the people and events of Yi Ti and the people of Old Town?   I think we can though I'm by no means well-versed in the ancient history.   I recall the 5 Forts off the coast of Yi Ti...are they comparable with Battle Island?   The Bloodstone Emperor was a black magic practitioner and the Hightowers are known necromancers.  Maybe I'm way off and maybe not.  History does have a way of repeating itself in ASOIAF. 

You made some really nice points in your post and I encourage you to mull it all over and bring your thoughts back here.   Thanks so much for participating in this topic.   I look forward to many more fascinating conversations with you.   

[hiemal]

My guess as to the progression of the races is

1. Deep Ones

2. Serpent/Lizard People of Sothoryos

3. CotF/Lengii/Giants/Merlings/Brindled Men/Ibbenese(?)

4. Great Empire of the Dawn

5. Humans

[Curled Finger]

@Faera, welcome and thank you sooooo much for participating in this topic as we try to understand the peculiar anthropology of Westeros.   I get the feeling you know much more about human origins than I, so with your understanding I'm going to hold off on speculating too much on your post.    My buddy Shellie, is an anthropologist by trade and will no doubt be able to shed better light on some of your more technical ideas.   (This will allow me to use the proper terminology so those of us with less knowledge are straight!)

However, I am really interested in your common ancestor idea.   I'm sort of stuck on the Ironborn these days, so forgive me if I've misinterpreted or taken liberty with the concept.  The World Book draws its own conclusions about the giants (again, why isn't the word capitalized?).  They were everywhere at one point, but seem to have survived exclusively North of the Wall.  We've got some unusually tall characters--Hodor, Brienne, the Cleganes, the Umbers--but height is the only trait we can link to the giants.   Giants are described as looking more like Big Foot than humans.  Why would height be the predominant surviving characteristic as opposed to say a lack of neck or super long arms or being covered in hair?   (Maybe the hairy thing developed after the giants went north?)  What of those water origins of the Ironborn or Manderlys?  We've got webbed feet as a trait peculiar to the Sisters--is it remotely possible they were water dwellers way back in time? 

Excellent comparison between the Squishers and bog devils!   Certainly makes me rethink the Crannogmen's original settlements.  

At the risk of musing out of turn I've got to ask about the Nights King and his corpse bride.   You've considered our Others and their direct impact on what I have to lump together as the 1st Men.  It seems to me that the Others change humans, indicating that the Others are stronger.   The Nights King changed after he had direct intimate contact with the corpse queen.    Assuming she was an Other is it safe to conclude that humans have to touch or exchange bodily fluids to become Others?   Are the changed humans really Others or a hybrid?    This is an exciting concept, Faera.   I can't wait to hear any more thoughts you might have on this!   

[Curled Finger]

32 minutes ago, hiemal said:

My guess as to the progression of the races is

1. Deep Ones

2. Serpent/Lizard People of Sothoryos

3. CotF/Lengii/Giants/Merlings/Brindled Men/Ibbenese(?)

4. Great Empire of the Dawn

5. Humans

Ah my friend, I planned to send you an IM to ask for your expertise on what I am beginning to think of as the "water people".   Let's reign this in to Westeros exclusively so as not to muddy the proverbial waters of my mind.    Do you care to alter your progression list before I assault you with questions?

[hiemal]

32 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah my friend, I planned to send you an IM to ask for your expertise on what I am beginning to think of as the "water people".   Let's reign this in to Westeros exclusively so as not to muddy the proverbial waters of my mind.    Do you care to alter your progression list before I assault you with questions?

Hmmmm- in Westeros proper I think we have

1. CotF/Giants

2. Deep Ones

3. Dawnites

4. Humans

The Deep Ones (I think) came to Westeros and established themselves in Pyke, Battle Isle, and Moat Cailin (?). They fought the CotF and were driven into the sea when the CotF Drowned parts of the land the Deep Ones held and broke the island of Pyke.

The Deep Ones have continued to meddle, however- they have taken control of weirwoods that were submerged in the Nagga incident, creating the Drowned God- their stolen fire. They have enslaved the merlings, the grove's attendant Children adapted to life below the waves and have some kind of Shadow Over Innsmouth thing going on with at least some of the Iron Born.

There may be groves off of the eastern coast as well- Borrel's webbed fingers and ship-luring habits as well as Patchface argue that the merlings on that side aren't any more wholesome but I think the Deep Ones themselves are focused primarily around Pyke and the Iron Islands.

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Hmmmm- in Westeros proper I think we have

1. CotF/Giants

2. Deep Ones

3. Dawnites

4. Humans

The Deep Ones (I think) came to Westeros and established themselves in Pyke, Battle Isle, and Moat Cailin (?). They fought the CotF and were driven into the sea when the CotF Drowned parts of the land the Deep Ones held and broke the island of Pyke.

The Deep Ones have continued to meddle, however- they have taken control of weirwoods that were submerged in the Nagga incident, creating the Drowned God- their stolen fire. They have enslaved the merlings, the grove's attendant Children adapted to life below the waves and have some kind of Shadow Over Innsmouth thing going on with at least some of the Iron Born.

There may be groves off of the eastern coast as well- Borrel's webbed fingers and ship-luring habits as well as Patchface argue that the merlings on that side aren't any more wholesome but I think the Deep Ones themselves are focused primarily around Pyke and the Iron Islands.

You are absolutely the best (not to mention my favorite) authority on the water people as is evidenced by your insightful and imaginative explanation of the pre Ironborn (They are pre Ironborn, right?) Deep Ones.   Only in replying to Faera did I begin to consider COTF under water.   That's what, half an hour?   Oh boy.   

If I follow correctly, you suspect there are underwater weirwood groves?   I can dig this as Nagga's ribs seem to be beneath the surface.   I could be wrong, but that's how I imagined the hall.  Are Deep Ones and Merlings the same thing?  Selkies or Squishers?    How does the Farwynd's magic (presumably COTF gifted) fit in?   Could they be the natural evolution of the original Deep Ones?   

I don't know about Battle Island or Moat Cailyn.   You've got events predating humans that in essence are repeated between the humans and COTF.   I can get on board with this as we have no better explanation for Battle Island's existence.  Strategically speaking, both locations stand out as definitive defense positions.  Do you think the oily black stone may be found in the foundations of Moat Cailyn?   

Could you define Dawnite so I don't go off in some direction you didn't intend before I get all excited?  

You're the best, thanks for opening this amazing avenue of possibility in this humble topic, Ser!  

[hiemal]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You are absolutely the best (not to mention my favorite) authority on the water people as is evidenced by your insightful and imaginative explanation of the pre Ironborn (They are pre Ironborn, right?) Deep Ones.   Only in replying to Faera did I begin to consider COTF under water.   That's what, half an hour?   Oh boy.   

If I follow correctly, you suspect there are underwater weirwood groves? 

Pretty much. They are basically immortal, so I don't see any reason why wouldn't continue living in some fashion under the sea. We know the Children have played with geography so I think it could fit together. The corrupted weirwood trees may or may not be the same as Shade of the Evening but I'm inclined to suspect that they are.

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 I can dig this as Nagga's ribs seem to be beneath the surface.   I could be wrong, but that's how I imagined the hall.  Are Deep Ones and Merlings the same thing?  Selkies or Squishers?    How does the Farwynd's magic (presumably COTF gifted) fit in?   Could they be the natural evolution of the original Deep Ones?  

Merlings are the aquatic branch of the Forest family (which is very morphologically plastic) while selkies (and other skinchangers like the Farwynds)  are the "wargs" of First Men who are closely associated with the sea. Squishers are either the Deep Ones themselves or more likely Deep One/human hybrids.

 

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know about Battle Island or Moat Cailyn.   You've got events predating humans that in essence are repeated between the humans and COTF.   I can get on board with this as we have no better explanation for Battle Island's existence.  Strategically speaking, both locations stand out as definitive defense positions.  Do you think the oily black stone may be found in the foundations of Moat Cailyn?  

I'm not entirely sure. The Deep Ones might have built them both or one and not the other or neither- that's the problem with multiple cycles of catastrophe.I'm not sure when the Great Empire of the Dawn (Dawnite) began sending over surplus Heroes like Garth and company so the possibility exists that they built (or helped build) the mainland structures as well as the idea that the CotF (in some other form that predates their split into Children and Giants) made them and lost the art after the war as part of the price for their mighty magic.

 

[Faera]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I get the feeling you know much more about human origins than I, so with your understanding I'm going to hold off on speculating too much on your post.    My buddy Shellie, is an anthropologist by trade and will no doubt be able to shed better light on some of your more technical ideas.   (This will allow me to use the proper terminology so those of us with less knowledge are straight!)

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Aha, I'm not an expert - just know bits a pieces base don a casual interest in the subject! In a nutshell, different variations of the same species branch off from a single ancestor and adapt to suit the conditions of where they live. So, think of the many known archaic human species in our world that are not modern humans' direct ancestor but, instead, a "cousin" species, part of the name genus (Homo). The most widely-known example in our world are the Neanderthal humans who co-existed for a time in Europe with our direct human ancestors and there is evidence hybridisation occurred.

I'm unsure whether GRRM has ever touched on the issue of interbreeding between different species in his sci-fi novels (as I have not read any so far) but he might possibly be aware on how humans wouldn't be able to breed with another intelligent species just because they are intelligent. They need to be members of the same species in order to produce living, fertile young. So, assuming the Crannogmen originated from hybridisation between the CotF and Men co-existing and intermarrying they must be close enough in taxonomy to breed in the first place.

I'm sorry if I'm not making sense! Either way, enough time has passed that the people who around today are probably majority the result of generations of interbreeding between all the sentient species of Westeros but some display the traits more prominently than others.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Giants are described as looking more like Big Foot than humans.  Why would height be the predominant surviving characteristic as opposed to say a lack of neck or super long arms or being covered in hair?   (Maybe the hairy thing developed after the giants went north?)  What of those water origins of the Ironborn or Manderlys?  We've got webbed feet as a trait peculiar to the Sisters--is it remotely possible they were water dwellers way back in time?

Again, I wouldn't know too much about this but the hairiness of the giants seems linked to the climate they live in (Cold) and the fact they don't really wear clothes. So, the excess hair probably wouldn't have survived with subsequent generations of the hybrid-child intermarrying with other humans. Natural selection might have made height a trait that got carried over but the hairiness was a big no-no. Just speculating, though.

Something like webbed feet probably works on the same principle -- if syndactyly was beneficial to those who lived at the Three Sisters, it would have. Maybe they were Water Dwellers because this was a fantasy world; it might be how the webbed-feet made it into the gene pool to begin with.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Excellent comparison between the Squishers and bog devils!   Certainly makes me rethink the Crannogmen's original settlements.  

 

Well, it is made clear that the Crannogmen are humans. They aren't a hybrid species and even the speculation that their smallness comes from the CotF is myth and speculation. What we can say is that they do seem culturally similar to them in many respects and might well have lived side-by-side with them, allowing for inter-marriage. Of course, I don't necessarily think the Squishers are Crannogmen; it just might be that the Squisher legend was born out of misinformation about, IDK, the Crackclaw clans or a group of people similar to Crannogmen in culture. It might be interesting if Crannogmen culture existed before, y'know, there was the need crannogs in the Neck.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Assuming she was an Other is it safe to conclude that humans have to touch or exchange bodily fluids to become Others?   Are the changed humans really Others or a hybrid?    This is an exciting concept, Faera.   I can't wait to hear any more thoughts you might have on this!

 

It does make one wonder, doesn't it? I had to dig around and I found the place where I originally thought of the idea of Human-Other hybrids. Turns out I didn't even have to look very far because it was in the very first chapter! 

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The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.  A Game of Thrones - Bran I

 

Old Nan might be overembellishing it because she knows Bran likes scary stories but there is often a hint of truth to even her craziest stories.

There is also Bran's vision all the way later in ADwD where he sees, "A white-haired woman... [with] a bronze sickle in her hand." This was something that made me think of the Others or possibly a woman with "Other" blood. The fact that Bran implies he has been flying back through time, seeing various faces of his ancestors before the Heart Tree, indicates this is far back in the past along with the use of a bronze weapon - something you would associate mostly with First Men, or indeed people like the Crannogmen who "live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and... remember [the secrets of the gods]." Together with the teaser Old Nan gave that the Night's King was a Stark and "mayhaps his name was Brandon" might imply the possibility that Starks carry a drop of Other blood in them somewhere down the line. Imagine that.

Of course, of course, it is all crazy speculation but that's all you can do with a lot of this. 

We don't know for certain in the books whether the Others need to transform humans or whether they take the humans (like Craster's sons) to breed with female Others to produce similar half-human children. The Others themselves are apparently very, very beautiful so maybe the idea of a human being attracted to an Other who wasn't trying to kill them isn't too far-fetched. The only real problem is the coldness -- but if Night's King could stand the cold of his "corpse bride" and Old Nan isn't pulling our chain about women sleeping with male Others to give them children, there must be a way around it!

The real question is whether the Others can reproduce sexually or if they are utterly reliant on humans alone for reproduction (in a transformative manner). GRRM stated that they aren't dead -- they are alive, with blood and bones -- so, there's no reason to presume they can't have their own little Others. It's just we never get to see them because they typically live so far North.

[Corvo the Crow]

Squishers are Borrels raiding for slaves. The story just gave them a few extra traits over the years like sharp teeth and stuff.

 

Below is proof enough I think

 

Robb's attack on Stafford's army.

Quote

Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her. "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain."

 This event happens during the time of the stories and see how even then it is embellished.

 

We know from old Nan giants eat men, right?

Quote

"His name is Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun, Leathers tells me. A lot to wrap a tongue around, I know. Leathers calls him Wun Wun, and that seems to serve." Wun Wun was very little like the giants in Old Nan's tales, those huge savage creatures who mixed blood into their morning porridge and devoured whole bulls, hair and hide and horns. This giant ate no meat at all, though he was a holy terror when served a basket of roots, crunching onions and turnips and even raw hard neeps between his big square teeth. "He's a willing worker, though getting him to understand what you want is not always easy. He speaks the Old Tongue after a fashion, but nothing of the Common. Tireless, though, and his strength is prodigious. He could do the work of a dozen men."

Apparently not.

[Faera]

16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Squishers are Borrels raiding for slaves. The story just gave them a few extra traits over the years like sharp teeth and stuff.

Below is proof enough I think.

Robb's attack on Stafford's army. This event happens during the time of the stories and see how even then it is embellished.

We know from old Nan giants eat men, right? Apparently not.

1

Exactly! 

[Curled Finger]

36 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Pretty much. They are basically immortal, so I don't see any reason why wouldn't continue living in some fashion under the sea. We know the Children have played with geography so I think it could fit together. The corrupted weirwood trees may or may not be the same as Shade of the Evening but I'm inclined to suspect that they are.

Merlings are the aquatic branch of the Forest family (which is very morphologically plastic) while selkies (and other skinchangers like the Farwynds)  are the "wargs" of First Men who are closely associated with the sea. Squishers are either the Deep Ones themselves or more likely Deep One/human hybrids.

 

I'm not entirely sure. The Deep Ones might have built them both or one and not the other or neither- that's the problem with multiple cycles of catastrophe.I'm not sure when the Great Empire of the Dawn (Dawnite) began sending over surplus Heroes like Garth and company so the possibility exists that they built (or helped build) the mainland structures as well as the idea that the CotF (in some other form that predates their split into Children and Giants) made them and lost the art after the war as part of the price for their mighty magic.

 

I love it when you break it down.  To the Ironborn then.  Do you think they came prior to the 1st Men?  Is it possible people like the Daynes or heroes like Garth (surplus--great!) could have been sent to the new land, Westeros, to colonize for the Empire?   

I'm sorry heimal, I found a Forrester family in the wiki.   They appear to be extinct.  Is this Forest family you speak of a literal family of people or a description of where the merlings reside?   Something else? 

[hiemal]

55 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I love it when you break it down.

 

And I love to do it, so hold on:

I think the Ironborn are primarily First Men- their boasts of predating them refer to their other, Deeper bloodlines. My first breakdown of races (the global one) is basically a classical kind of evolution- amphibian, reptile, Golden-Age man, man. Merlings are a land race adapted to life under the sea.

Let's break down the difference between Krakens and Crabs- between the West and East costs; between the Drowned and the Storm God? The Ironborn are krakens, testosterone-pumped Scyllas whose reach doesn't far exceed the water but those of the Old Blood off of the East Coast are more like our own merlings, who lure sailors to their deaths and feast in the wake of storms rather than reave. The Grey King took a merling to wife and he stole the solar fire of the weirwoods but perhaps the merlings of the West Coast are still in service of the Storm God, the child of the Merling King and the Moon-Pale Maid? Anyways, I think Patchface may be their token on the board?

 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 Is it possible people like the Daynes or heroes like Garth (surplus--great!) could have been sent to the new land, Westeros, to colonize for the Empire?  

I'm pretty sure they came from the Empire, but probably not to colonize. My best guess is hunker down and wait for the poo to hit the fan? Long range plans.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 

I'm sorry heimal, I found a Forrester family in the wiki.   They appear to be extinct.  Is this Forest family you speak of a literal family of people or a description of where the merlings reside?   Something else? 

Sorry, I meant Children of the Forest Family. I think it is broader than generally recognized and may even include the Naathi? Merlings would be the most extreme. I wonder if wight-merlings are the "dead things in the water" in Hardhome?

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Snip

We are not meant to know. Most of the "elder race" stuff is an homage to writers like Lovecraft and Tolkien who influenced his works. It took the world book to inform us that the Ibbenese look very neanderthal in appearance. Will we get a history of Ibben? Of course not. Pretty much everything outside of what we are shown in the books will be a forever mystery. The great empire of the dawn. The history of Asshai. Continents other than what we have seen via POV. All of these will be hints on pages. We will never see the city of winged men. 
So at this poin, the histories given in the books are the only histories we will see. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Aha, I'm not an expert - just know bits a pieces base don a casual interest in the subject! In a nutshell, different variations of the same species branch off from a single ancestor and adapt to suit the conditions of where they live. So, think of the many known archaic human species in our world that are not modern humans' direct ancestor but, instead, a "cousin" species, part of the name genus (Homo). The most widely-known example in our world are the Neanderthal humans who co-existed for a time in Europe with our direct human ancestors and there is evidence hybridisation occurred.

I'm unsure whether GRRM has ever touched on the issue of interbreeding between different species in his sci-fi novels (as I have not read any so far) but he might possibly be aware on how humans wouldn't be able to breed with another intelligent species just because they are intelligent. They need to be members of the same species in order to produce living, fertile young. So, assuming the Crannogmen originated from hybridisation between the CotF and Men co-existing and intermarrying they must be close enough in taxonomy to breed in the first place.

I'm sorry if I'm not making sense! Either way, enough time has passed that the people who around today are probably majority the result of generations of interbreeding between all the sentient species of Westeros but some display the traits more prominently than others.

Again, I wouldn't know too much about this but the hairiness of the giants seems linked to the climate they live in (Cold) and the fact they don't really wear clothes. So, the excess hair probably wouldn't have survived with subsequent generations of the hybrid-child intermarrying with other humans. Natural selection might have made height a trait that got carried over but the hairiness was a big no-no. Just speculating, though.

Something like webbed feet probably works on the same principle -- if syndactyly was beneficial to those who lived at the Three Sisters, it would have. Maybe they were Water Dwellers because this was a fantasy world; it might be how the webbed-feet made it into the gene pool to begin with.

Well, it is made clear that the Crannogmen are humans. They aren't a hybrid species and even the speculation that their smallness comes from the CotF is myth and speculation. What we can say is that they do seem culturally similar to them in many respects and might well have lived side-by-side with them, allowing for inter-marriage. Of course, I don't necessarily think the Squishers are Crannogmen; it just might be that the Squisher legend was born out of misinformation about, IDK, the Crackclaw clans or a group of people similar to Crannogmen in culture. It might be interesting if Crannogmen culture existed before, y'know, there was the need crannogs in the Neck.

It does make one wonder, doesn't it? I had to dig around and I found the place where I originally thought of the idea of Human-Other hybrids. Turns out I didn't even have to look very far because it was in the very first chapter! 

Old Nan might be overembellishing it because she knows Bran likes scary stories but there is often a hint of truth to even her craziest stories.

There is also Bran's vision all the way later in ADwD where he sees, "A white-haired woman... [with] a bronze sickle in her hand." This was something that made me think of the Others or possibly a woman with "Other" blood. The fact that Bran implies he has been flying back through time, seeing various faces of his ancestors before the Heart Tree, indicates this is far back in the past along with the use of a bronze weapon - something you would associate mostly with First Men, or indeed people like the Crannogmen who "live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and... remember [the secrets of the gods]." Together with the teaser Old Nan gave that the Night's King was a Stark and "mayhaps his name was Brandon" might imply the possibility that Starks carry a drop of Other blood in them somewhere down the line. Imagine that.

Of course, of course, it is all crazy speculation but that's all you can do with a lot of this. 

We don't know for certain in the books whether the Others need to transform humans or whether they take the humans (like Craster's sons) to breed with female Others to produce similar half-human children. The Others themselves are apparently very, very beautiful so maybe the idea of a human being attracted to an Other who wasn't trying to kill them isn't too far-fetched. The only real problem is the coldness -- but if Night's King could stand the cold of his "corpse bride" and Old Nan isn't pulling our chain about women sleeping with male Others to give them children, there must be a way around it!

The real question is whether the Others can reproduce sexually or if they are utterly reliant on humans alone for reproduction (in a transformative manner). GRRM stated that they aren't dead -- they are alive, with blood and bones -- so, there's no reason to presume they can't have their own little Others. It's just we never get to see them because they typically live so far North.

Haha, I was instructed in the homo sapien sapien just this past week.  I'm down with viable offspring.  As to interbreeding GRRM is all over the place with it, the sicko.   The island of Gorgossos, the Ibbinese--that list is nearly endless in ASOIAF.   I read Fevre Dream, but that's the extent of my Martin bibliography.   Still, @hiemal always manages to cross my eyes and make my heart beat fast with possibility.   A great sticking point with me is the Wildlings.  I think they were sent north of The Wall as a penalty or to provide The Others with a harvest or both.  I get the stories about the Picts and all the logic behind them just being there, but I don't buy any of it.   It doesn't make any sense at all to leave people behind The Wall knowing the threat that exists.  I believe the wording in the tale of the Last Hero is defeated, not vanquished, not killed only defeated.    I paid attention to the wording used in the World Book for our giants and other er, inhabitants of Westeros.  

I think we can learn a lot about the 1st Men from the Wildlings in their near pristine culture.  They are savage.   They are magical.  They are liberated.  They retain their memories.  They understand threats no one seems to recall.  Tormund speaks of mating with bears and Varamyr has been to a conference of skinchangers!  The Thenns burn their faces then rub ash into the wounds.   What's that for?  They live closest to the Lands of Always Winter and are considered the fiercest among the Wildlings.  They still speak the Old Tongue where nearly all their neighbors including the COTF speak the Common Tongue.  I think it was Sam who read about the COTF providing the Nights Watch with obsidian arrow heads and weapons.  I was surprised to read that this same commodity is made and traded by the Skagosi.   So who are they?  Why do they know about obsidian weapons?   What do they use it for other than trade? 

I don't have a clue how Craster knew to sacrifice his sons.  He also offered sheep (I think) when he had no son to offer.   What does that say about the Others?   Do they simply fancy themselves gods and demand a token sacrifice?  Do they eat the offerings?   Do they just burn them?  Do they transform them?  Do they raise them to be utilized for breeding?  The point is Craster was a Wildling and he knew stuff.  How the heck did this comparatively primitive culture survive so long beyond the Wall?