Who Really Came 1st?

[Curled Finger]

On 12/14/2017 at 9:32 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

So the first in Westeros? Likely the Children.  

And if you follow the colour symbolism in the Yi Ti section, you get a broad idea of the major waves of humans to Westeros.  First are the "maroons" - shipwrecked sailors and escaped slaves, for instance, that begin a civilization of sorts and from whence the oily black stone and sea hybrids are associated, possibly mingling blood with the much later Iron-born influx and even the Hightowers, who I think might have formed the first kingdom.  Then an influx of "purple", likely First Men associated in myth or fact with the legend of the Amethyst Empress and the people fleeing the slavery and bloodshed of the Bloodstone Empire from all over Essos.  And lastly the scarlet if I remember correctly, the Targaryan invasion.  It's been a few years since I read WoIaF but I remember having fun fitting all the bits and pieces together.

Anyway, it's worth a look for anyone interested.  I got onto it when I realized all those God-Emperors were really thinly-veiled references to certain Westerosi families or characters.

That's fascinating!  Please say which families or characters you think they may be!   

Sorry I missed your post--I wasn't notified and be danged if I haven't been really active the past week so I was the last poster in everything.   I never saw your post until this morning.   

[Lady Barbrey]

I used to have a post in the WoIaF forum a few years back called God Emperors of Westeros, but it seems to have disappeared.  So I'd have to go back to the book and call it up again and for that I need my computer not my phone. Basically it started by realizing the Jade Green Emperor on his golden chamberpot was really a reference to Tywin, and after that most of the major players came into focus. The Grey Emperor was Robb Stark, the Blue something were the Grayjoys, Indigo was Baratheon, Scarlet the Targaryans (weirdly Bloodraven, and Tyrion! because of the I Claudius reference), Yellow was Illyrio, White the KG.  Later, in another section, I think the Jogos something, orange is the Martells, then later Violet the Daynes. Not sure on that last one.  

Take a look for yourself if you've got the book handy.  It takes some interpretation but does hang together once you realize you're on the right track. Then once you've got the colour symbolism for the families, other bits make sense too.  It was fun!

What the original list made me do was look at the whole history of Yi Ti, Leng as an alternate history of Westeros, so I used the colour symbolism of its various empires to give me one for Westeros. And the geography is upside down.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I used to have a post in the WoIaF forum a few years back called God Emperors of Westeros, but it seems to have disappeared.  So I'd have to go back to the book and call it up again and for that I need my computer not my phone. Basically it started by realizing the Jade Green Emperor on his golden chamberpot was really a reference to Tywin, and after that most of the major players came into focus. The Grey Emperor was Robb Stark, the Blue something were the Grayjoys, Indigo was Baratheon, Scarlet the Targaryans (weirdly Bloodraven, and Tyrion! because of the I Claudius reference), Yellow was Illyrio, White the KG.  Later, in another section, I think the Jogos something, orange is the Martells, then later Violet the Daynes. Not sure on that last one.  

Take a look for yourself if you've got the book handy.  It takes some interpretation but does hang together once you realize you're on the right track. Then once you've got the colour symbolism for the families, other bits make sense too.  It was fun!

What the original list made me do was look at the whole history of Yi Ti, Leng as an alternate history of Westeros, so I used the colour symbolism of its various empires to give me one for Westeros. And the geography is upside down.

I wish you could repost this as it sounds like a fascinating topic.  I recently posted a topic in the AWOIAF subforum but it didn't get much response, so I vow to post everything in general because I really enjoy reading the diversity in our interpretations, ideas and imaginations.   Sadly, I'm not good at all with the symbolism so this exercise is probably lost on me.  Let me know if you ever repost so that I'm sure not to miss it.  

[Leo of House Cartel]

On 13/12/2017 at 4:55 PM, Curled Finger said:

Ah Leo, thanks for being so patient with me as I try to really wrap my head around this water magic.  I realize I'm cherry picking connections, but I wanted to give you an answer.   

I think there may be that kernel of truth in all the legends.   Aside from being a damned fine piece of fantasy literature, ASOIAF is also a collection of mysteries.   Clues are there.  We just have to figure them out.  

OK so origins in the deep.   Got it (I think)--predating all others.   Deep Ones are still in the water after creating their landlubbing races.  I had this crazy idea once that maybe the Old Gods created Westeros and the er, humanids.  I gave myself 12 gods.   The progression was the creation of the COTF, giants, least powerful humans to most powerful humans.  Each old god tried to do a little bit better than the previous.   Like the giants were created to showcase strength which sort of outdid the COTF who couldn't build.  Each god possessing its own preferences and creation ideas for a perfect world.  I know, it's not science, but it was fun to bat around.   

I think there was a castastrophe way back in time that forced creatures out of Essos, maybe Sothoros and Ultheros too.  The longer this thread gets the more convinced I am that the Ironborn came from Sothoros.   The Ironborn are simply too different from both 1st Men and Andals (on the timeline) and I see no logical way to get to the Iron Islands from Essos.   

I think our timeline may be off, too.   I can't reconcile a seafaring people called Ironborn predating the Andals unless the Andals learned their abilities from the Ironborn.   Still, here they are.  Not my catch, but there is that axe and hammer Balon Blackskin uses, too.   Another Andal connection.   One of these people predates the other, so which is it? 

If we are to accept the timeline we are given the Ironborn should arrive in Westeros after the Rhoynish Wars (because I'm hellbent that Blackskin of Balon's is greyscale).  I'm taking "skin" to be that kernel of truth in this tale.   Could be they were either the Rhoynish slaves or slavers Nymeria lost along her long way to Dorne.   It's possible the originators of a curse have some type of immunity to the curse and it could be Balon Blackskin was a stoneman through and through because the Ironborn are a particularly fearsome bunch.   (I'm thinking the Rhoynish among the Ironborn may have that meansured immunity to greyscale where their captors did not--the Ironborn being a combined people).  

What are we to do?   Do we accept the timeline of events which contains nye on impossible contradictions?  

Sorry for the late reply my friend. I like that idea about the gods creating humanoids in various skills sets, would certainly explain how each of the humanoid races each have their own very obvious specialities.

The IB as potential Rhoynish expats is also very interesting, the Greyjoys and Hoares certainly have the dark hair and eyes one might expect from some salty river dweller. 

Nymerias host also succumbed to several contagions during their stay in Sothoryos, "swarms of stinging flies spread one disease after another: green fever, the dancing plague, blood boils, weeping sores, sweetrot. The young and very old proved especially vulnerable to such contagions"  -  I wonder how this could fit with the story of Balon Blackskin.

On 15/12/2017 at 5:32 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

I have always considered the tales of Yi Ti and Leng etc to be but inverted, Asianized, tales of the history of Westeros.  The tall thin Lengi in their last southern island outpost the counterparts of the small CotF in their isolated cave in the North. Geography and stature upside down.  Not a perfect fit but in broad strokes it works.  Four times the Lengi try to shrug off the humans - four times the CotF tried to keep humans out of Westeros.  The Lengi matriarch "marries" two humans - one to command her armies, one to command her navies - in a metaphor of CotF transformations/hybridizations with humans to create the Others as an Army and a Merfolk as a Navy to fight against humans themselves. We've only heard rumours of things beneath the sea, but they might play a part; regardless, the Ironborn might have partially descended from a race like the Others only sea-based and perhaps more various in their permutations.

Very nice work m'lady! This section about the Lengii/Westerosi crossovers is great. 

On 15/12/2017 at 5:32 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

ISo for me I think that the Lengi/Children were the first throughout all the lands, having evolved as all creatures evolve, but with a talent for magic and particularly transformation, not just spiritual but physical too.   Then come the humans, evolving from silverhaired lemurs with violet eyes or hairy neanderthals, etc., until they threaten the land.  To me the various transformations of humans into wargs or giants or Others or merfolk or river magic people or dragonbloods, etc., likely stem from efforts by the Children to pacify, reinvent or battle humans in their eons-long attempt to keep their forests, lands and seas inviolate from human depredations.

I like this evolution idea.

Though Leng broke free of Yi Ti four hundred years ago, the northern two-thirds of the island are still dominated by the descendants of these YiTish invaders". - TWOIAF, Leng.

Considering Leng's forced assimilation by Yi-Ti over the years we might also have a precedent for the theorised COTF/Crannogmen hybridisation.

The native Lengii certainly sound like an interesting bunch..

"On the southern third of Leng dwell the descendants of those displaced by the invaders from the Golden Empire. The native Lengii are perhaps the tallest of all the known races of mankind, with many men amongst them reaching seven feet in height, and some as tall as eight. Long-legged and slender, with flesh the color of oiled teak, they have large golden eyes and can supposedly see farther and better than other men, especially at night. Though formidably tall, the women of the Lengii are famously lithe and lovely, of surpassing beauty"

If these people really are an inverted version of the Singers, I wonder what the Lengii would make of the current situation in Westeros.

 Do you think there's any chance we might actually get to see a few of these people in TWOW or ADOS?

The following quotes have always fascinated me...

"It was mariners from the Golden Empire who opened Leng to trade, yet even then the island remained a perilous place for outsiders, for the Empress of Leng was known to have congress with the Old Ones, gods who lived deep below the ruined subterranean cities, and from time to time the Old Ones told her to put all the strangers on the island to death. This is known to have happened at least four times in the island's history if Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium can be believed" - TWOIAF Leng

 

"Not until Jar Har, sixth of the sea-green emperors, conquered Leng with fire and steel and took it into his empire did these slaughters cease for good and all." - TWOIAF Leng

 

 

"Legends persist that the Old Ones still live beneath the jungle of Leng. So many of the warriors that Jar Har sent down below the ruins returned mad or not at all that the god-emperor finally decreed the vast underground cities' ruins should be sealed up and forgotten. Even today, it is forbidden to enter such places, under penalty of torture and death" - TWOIAF Leng

 

"Leng's history goes back almost as far as that of Yi Ti itself, but little and less of it is known west of the Jade Straits. There are queer ruins in the depths of the island's jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface...but underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth. No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people" - TWOIAF Leng

 

These quotes do seem to indicate a Lengii relationship with the underground world, which brings to mind all the various caves and hollow hills found throughout Planetos.

 

 I've seen a few theories that the majority of the world has an underground network of tunnels and vaults, once used by ancient singers to both be closer to the Weirwood roots and hide from the fires of ancient dragons. This relies on the idea that dragons predate man in ASOIAF so take that how you will.

Such a beneath ground based network could also serve as a means of communicating with any sea based lifeforms, like the Lengii did with the Old Ones (if indeed they are the same as the Deep Ones).

 

What do you and @Curled Finger think these Lengii caves could mean?

[Curled Finger]

@Leo of House Cartel, I have no clue about the Lengi or caves on that side of the world.  I'm pleading with @Lady Barbrey to post the topic again--this is right up our alley!   Maybe she will dig up her computer and give us our Christmas wish! 

[Corvo the Crow]

I can't remember if they have been mentioned but do giants also count? It occured to me that there are mentions of giants in Essos too, so they too must have went to Westeros. Or, since we get no mention of giants settling to Westeros from cotf we se, could it be that Giants in Essos came from Westeros?