Gerold Dayne - Targaryen ancestry?

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I'm fairly certain sure if this has been pointed out before, but here's my question:

Many people think that the Daynes have Targaryen ancestry. Whether or not that is truly the case can be discussed to death, but there is one particular Dayne who is a bit of a mystery: Gerold Dayne. He is from a branch of Dayne that isn't at Starfall, but at High Hermitage. Gerold even refers to Arthur Dayne as his cousin, which signifies that he is a distant relative:

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As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"

A Feast for Crows

The Queenmaker

We don't know who he descends from, but we do know that he looks a lot like the Targaryens, because he has the same hair and eye-colour, but there is one particular trait that seems to point to Targaryen ancestry:

Gerold has silver hair, but there is a dark streak in it. You can argue that there's nothing really strange about it, but there are two other Targaryens who had an odd streak through their hair: Elaena Targaryen, who had silver hair with a golden streak to it, and Valarr Targaryen, who had brown hair with a silver-golden streak in it.

Two Targaryens with a rather particular trait and one man with an unknown ancestry who displays not just this particular trait, but many other traits to a specific family. I know many people believe that Gerold could be a "secret Targaryen", but do you think that GRRM could be indrectly, but specifically, telling us that Gerold has Targaryen ancestry, maybe a descendent from Elaena Targaryen?

[Corvo the Crow]

Silvery hair =/= Targaryen. It is quite common in people of Valyrian descent, like Lyseni.

Ashara also has purple eyes and is from a different branch of Daynes. Unless Daynes acquired the purple eyes from Valyrians and got a lucky streak and upon that changed the color of their banner to the new eye color of their family, they probably had that eyes from the start.

Daynes, being a firstmen house, were present in Westeros long before the Valyrian Freehold was founded. They could be more closely related to the ancestors of Valyrians then other people but that's about it.

 

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Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."

From memory, we've never seen grey eyes in anyone who isn't a first men descendant. So like some of these unsullied are probably closely related to the first men, Ancestors of Daynes were likely related to the Valyrians but they have splitted up, with Daynes going to Westeros.

[Curled Finger]

Ah the mystery of ancestry and identity!  I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think the Daynes are what the old school bunch around here call Proto Valyrians.  Bear with me as I try to explain my vague understanding.   The original Valyrians were shepherds 10,000 years ago if they were even in Valyria that far back.    However, there are Westerosi sightings of dragons thought to have occurred well before the dragonlords of Valyria came into existence and the Vale has a legend about the Falcon Knight. Here is the quote from the World Book...

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests).  The Vale:House Arryn

I like this quote for discussions like this as I imagine dragonriders from Asshai visited--perhaps looking for the right people to bestow their knowledge upon.  That's wild speculation, but there is no arguing there were dragons prior to the human settlement of Westeros. This text just tells me those dragons were ridden by someone.   

Since we can't be sure when the Targ family was established as minor dragonlords in Valyria it's probably safer to assume the Daynes are of Valyrian descent...before Valyria was established.  In my opinion this just speaks to physical and perhaps magical traits, much like the Tully or Baratheon or Lannister family traits that seem to have been maintained over the many years.   

We learned about the allotment of property and inheritance in the main ASOIAF series.  Second sons become knights or lords of smaller cadet branches.   High Hermitage is an outpost or secondary keep of Starfall.  I suppose it's some Dayne's brother's place.  Do all the second sons get High Hermitage?  Is it a more magical place like Starfall where only certain sons take up Dawn?   More wild speculation: Is High Hermitage where the rare Sword of the Evening resides?  Darkstar says Arthur Dayne is his cousin, indicating to me that he is the son of Arthur Dayne's father's brother.  Darkstar certainly has a Sword of the Evening vibe for my money.   

Ah @Vaedys Targaryen I really didn't mean to go on so long in this.   Certainly there may be Tagaryan blood among the Daynes.   There were marriages and we know all too well there are bastards from every family everywhere.   Still, I'm thinking the Dayne brand of magic may not reside in Targaryan lineage so much as Starfall and Valyrian descent.   For all it's worth.

[Crona]

Yes, he can be but what I struggle with Gerold being a targ descendant is what purpose would it serve the story?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

31 minutes ago, Crona said:

Yes, he can be but what I struggle with Gerold being a targ descendant is what purpose would it serve the story?

I think there's something more going on with the character, that Doran seems intent on having him taken out, even though we don't really know how Myrcella got injured and we know he is at innocent of killing Arys Oakheart. This looks like something Doran will live to regret regardless of the outcome.

I don't see what having another hidden Targaryen can bring to the story, personally, except more strife. Doran's actions are questionable, though. 

[Lady Dacey]

You know, purple eyes exist in real life, and not all people with this trait are related.

[Crona]

52 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think there's something more going on with the character, that Doran seems intent on having him taken out, even though we don't really know how Myrcella got injured and we know he is at innocent of killing Arys Oakheart. This looks like something Doran will live to regret regardless of the outcome.

I don't see what having another hidden Targaryen can bring to the story, personally, except more strife. Doran's actions are questionable, though. 

I agree about Doran 

one thing that could tie in to the theory from OP could be speculated that Doran and Gerold are on the same side and he is luring Swann to his death. And Doran knows that Gerold is a targ and wants to have a targ restoration with him, of course this is stretching it

[Lady Dacey]

Purple eyes are a Valyrian trait. But Irma may no be exclusive Valyrian right? It seems as common in Planetos as green or blue eyes in our world - there are many purple-eyed people in Lys while it's rare in Westeros. Blue and green eyes are basically only seens in people of European descent in our world. If you come to South America, where I live, it's quite an uncommon characteristic, considered very beautiful and noteworthy... just like purple eyes for our westerosi characters. And just like blue eyes in South America come from a myriad of different predecesssor, all European, violet eyes in Westeros can come from different origins in Essos. So you have the Targaryans from Valyria, but the Daynes can very well come from first men who had purple eyes in the first place. I don't know. Maybe I just read it that way because of the circumstances in which I live (almost everyone has eyes different shades of brown) and I just thought asoiaf purple was my world's blue. 

[Pukisbaisals]

10 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I know many people believe that Gerold could be a "secret Targaryen", but do you think that GRRM could be indrectly, but specifically, telling us that Gerold has Targaryen ancestry, maybe a descendent from Elaena Targaryen?

 

8 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think there's something more going on with the character, that Doran seems intent on having him taken out, even though we don't really know how Myrcella got injured and we know he is at innocent of killing Arys Oakheart. This looks like something Doran will live to regret regardless of the outcome.

I think  Gerold Dayne descended from Maegor, son of Brightflame and Daenora Targaryen. That could not only explain  his Targaryen look, but also his ambitions and why Martells are so concerned about him.

[Leo of House Cartel]

I've seen several good theories surrounding The Most Dangerous Man In Dorne. The main ones seems to be..

• Gerold is from Maegor Targaryens branch of the family tree, with a key point being how House Dayne would likely be the best place for Aerion's son to go, as his Grandmother was a Dayne. Little Maegor may have been adopted into the Daynes and perhaps even married one of his kin over the years.
• Gerold as Oberyn's bastard - The dark eyes, atraction to Arianne, black streak in his hair, combat prowess and "dangerous" handle certainly do bring the Viper to mind, and let's not forget Darkstar was of course, weaned on venom
• He is a bastard of Aerys/Rhaegar and Ashara - the Valyrian traits and dangerous title again play into much of this theory. Ashara's peculiar movements during the Rebellion, when linked with Arthur's relationship with Rhaegar and their potentially frosty situation with the mad king, could certainly be linked to some Targaryen/Dayne breeding.
• He was Arthur Dayne's squire at the Tower of Joy - his age matches up, and again, the danger is present.

I'm not sure what to believe, but if Doran's famous quote is anything to go by, Darkstar does have something in his backstory worth fearing.

It this point it may even be that the truth of the matter is present in a few of these theories. 

Just for fun, let's say Maegor Brightflame was indeed sent to live with his Grandmothers family in Dorne, to best avoid the politics of KL. The assembled members of House Dayne may have wanted to mix the blood of the dragon into their own line, for obvious reasons.

Fast forward a few years and Maegor may have found himself betrothed to one of his cousins, probably training under watch of the Master at Arms of Starfall (and what a storied position that must be). In this time I see no reason why the son of Aerion wouldn't have developed into the of the most skilled swordsmen in all of Westeros - more reason for the Daynes to marry one of their women to this forsaken Prince.

In time, the apparently recently built keep of High Hermitage may have been granted to this celestial Dragon, allowing he and whatever family he may have started of his own a chance to carve out their own place. Maegor may have had numerous children, all with the Dayne name instead of Targaryen. Even Arthur, Ashara and Allyria may even be of his direct line, with High Hermitage going to another child.

A young Arthur Dayne might have bonded with Rhaegar over such talk. There has to be some starting point for their famous bromance, and a few drops of dragon blood can always do wonders when enamouring oneself to a dragon, if Brown Ben in anything to go by.

Considering the Red Viper has already displayed an attraction to woman of Valyrian stock, one can imagine he would get up to all sorts of mischief is he ventured into the potentially Maegor occupied Red Mountains, especially if he knew of this Bright Prince's true nature. Again, this is mere speculation but if Oberyn did indeed sire a bastard on a female of the famously honourable Dayne's, then there could be a chance the child would be legitimised by the mother's house - the Lords of Starfall have been quiet since the Rebellion, paranoia may run deep around the Torrentine, yet Dayne pride may be swelling even more.

And around ten years later here stands Darkstar, ready to become a squire, destined to squire for his cousin Arthur at the Tower of Joy. After the Sword of The Morning was killed and Robert had taken power, House Dayne would have much reason to keep Gerold hidden away, due to his Valyrian features and whatever knowledge he may have aquired about Lyanna Stark.

High Hermitage - a fascinating name, one that suggests a long sabbatical and raises many questions in regards to the current Dayne MO. The keeps location, close to the TOJ, is highly interesting, and one does have to wonder how history plays in to the name of the cadet Dayne's place of residence.

 

 

[Darth Sidious]

Baelor is another with that funky striped pattern to his hair.  He was part Dornish.   That leads me to believe that Gerold Dayne is a Targaryen bastard.  Targaryen + Dayne.  The only Targ of an age to have fathered him is Aerys.  Not to worry though.  He's a bastard and thus, is not in line for the throne.

[Crona]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

 

• He was Arthur Dayne's squire at the Tower of Joy - his age matches up, and again, the danger is present.

 

 

 

Now with this theory, would Doran know about Jon being a targ (based on RLJ)?

[Leo of House Cartel]

10 minutes ago, Crona said:

Now with this theory, would Doran know about Jon being a targ (based on RLJ)?

Great question, but sadly I'm not sure. Judging by the Dayne secrecy over the last 13 years, as well as their lack of presence at the Sugar Skull Feast, one could make the argument that Doran, himself highly secretive, has some kind of deal with the Daynes to keep them out of the general Dornish focus.

This could certainly be due to some knowledge of Jon, but the lack of substantial evidence in regards to the matter could put a halt to this line of thinking.

Then again, if Darkstar knows RLJ, and is he is indeed the Viper's son, then I can't see any reason why Gerold wouldn't share this information with his family in Sunspear.

Lord Edric Dayne seems to have his own theories on Jon's mother, but I wonder how the other Dayne's see things.

[A Ghost of Someone]

All native houses of Valaryia, where the Targaryens are originally from, have silvergold hair.

[Lady Dacey]

Hey, I believe this is relevant and very similar to what I've stated above:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1428/

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Question: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination.
GRRM:	I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

In the books we get Ashara with purple eyes and Ned Dayne with sandy blond hair (very light blond? I don't know, sand colou varies... where I live sand is almost while). So the Darkstar just has regular Dayne looks. He's dangerous for reasons other than his heritage

[LynnS]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:56 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

High Hermitage - a fascinating name, one that suggests a long sabbatical and raises many questions in regards to the current Dayne MO. The keeps location, close to the TOJ, is highly interesting, and one does have to wonder how history plays in to the name of the cadet Dayne's place of residence.

Indeed, fascinating!

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:56 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

High Hermitage - a fascinating name, one that suggests a long sabbatical and raises many questions in regards to the current Dayne MO. The keeps location, close to the TOJ, is highly interesting, and one does have to wonder how history plays in to the name of the cadet Dayne's place of residence.

The name is interesting, the location is very interesting. For me, it serves to hold on to that very, very flimsy tread that Arthur still lives and is there, that Doran knows and is trying to force him out. Hope springs eternal.

On 12/11/2017 at 6:56 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Gerold as Oberyn's bastard - The dark eyes, atraction to Arianne, black streak in his hair, combat prowess and "dangerous" handle certainly do bring the Viper to mind, and let's not forget Darkstar was of course, weaned on venom

I don't know that Arianne's taste in men is enough to say that Darkstar is Oberyn's bastard. He has acknowledged his children, from Obara whose mother was a prostitute to Nymeria whose mother was high born. Why wouldn't he acknowledge his son?

In any case, there's this tiny passage from Arianne's POV in WoW, if you haven't read it.

Spoiler

"Is that what Darkstar is? A man?" Ser Daemon grimaced. "A man would not have done what he did to Princess Myrcella. Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It's just a pity that he never got around to killing him."

 

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

The name is interesting, the location is very interesting. For me, it serves to hold on to that very, very flimsy tread that Arthur still lives and is there, that Doran knows and is trying to force him out. Hope springs eternal.

Perhaps it was a place where Dayne exiles are sent? For a house granting their ancestral sword not to the first born but to who is worthy of it, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch that perhaps before NW was established they sent the unworthies of their house to HH. What are hermits anyway, if not self exiled persons? Being the "lord" of the exile place of Daynes, Darkstar must indeed deserve his name.

[Lord Varys]

If George wanted to give the Daynes some Targaryen blood, he could easily do so. The fact that Prince Maekar ended up marrying Dyanna Dayne doesn't make it unlikely that she had some Targaryen blood, too - not directly through a Targaryen-Dayne marriage but indirectly through a marriage between one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls and one of her Dayne ancestors.

In addition, it is also not unlikely that there was a marriage between the Daynes and the Targaryens after Dyanna-Maekar. Both of Maekar's daughter - Daella and Rhae - married and had children, but we don't know whom they married. I think Daella ended up marrying Dunk, and that Lord Selwyn and Brienne are descended from these two, but the younger daughter Rhae could have been married to a Dayne. Maekar must have had rather close ties to Starfall due his wife being a Dayne.

We also have to consider the simple Princess Vaella, Daeron's daughter, Aerion's son Maegor, Aerion's mother, Princess Daenora (who could have remarried after Aerion's death), and the hypothetical children of Prince Duncan and Jenny.

Any of those - or their children - could have hooked up with a Dayne.

[Leo of House Cartel]

21 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

The name is interesting, the location is very interesting. For me, it serves to hold on to that very, very flimsy tread that Arthur still lives and is there, that Doran knows and is trying to force him out. Hope springs eternal.

I don't know that Arianne's taste in men is enough to say that Darkstar is Oberyn's bastard. He has acknowledged his children, from Obara whose mother was a prostitute to Nymeria whose mother was high born. Why wouldn't he acknowledge his son?

In any case, there's this tiny passage from Arianne's POV in WoW, if you haven't read it.

  Reveal hidden contents

"Is that what Darkstar is? A man?" Ser Daemon grimaced. "A man would not have done what he did to Princess Myrcella. Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It's just a pity that he never got around to killing him."

 

I and many others have had had the same hopes for a while now 

Couldn't say why Oberyn might not have acknowledged Gerold, if it indeed was the case that the Viper was his sire. I guess it could just be another one of those Sunspear long play conspiracy scenarios if Darkstar and Doran were in cahoots over Myrcella's attack - a bit of unknown "venom" cold certainly help in any plans to poison the Lannister rule.

I'm not sure about the situation with his parentage anyway. I think some people take Arianne's apparent fancying of the Viper, as well as Gerold's black streak and the tension between he and Arianne  as evidence of Oberyn being his dad.